Conference tallis::celt

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  29-Oct-1987 0128" 29-OCT-1987 01:40
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.folk
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!sri-spam!rutgers!bellcore!faline!ulysses!mhuxt!ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-cis!dsacg1!dcscg1!dsmith
Subject: Re: looking for Celtic music on CD
Posted: 24 Oct 87 20:02:54 GMT
Organization: Defense Construction Supply Center, Columbus
Xref: decwrl soc.culture.celtic:412 rec.music.folk:855
 
in article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Mark Geary) says:
 
> Can anyone tell me where to find mail order companies (or stores in
> Columbus) where I can find Celtic folk music, modern or traditional,
> on CD.  I suppose replies should be by E-mail.
 
Here are a few catalog sources for Celtic recordings:
 
    Andy's Front Hall, P.O. Box 307, Voorheesville, NY 12186
    518 / 765-4193
 
    Down Home Music, Inc., 10341 San Pablo Ave., El Cerrito, CA 94530
    415 / 525-1494
 
    Green Linnet Records, Inc., 70 Turner Hill Rd., New Canaan, CT 06840
    203 / 966-0864
 
    Elderly Instruments, P.O. Box 14210, Lansing, MI 48901
    517 / 372-7890
 
    Alcazar Productions, Inc., P.O. Box 429, Waterbury, VT 05676
    802 / 244-8657
 
    Release Records, 225 Washington St., Mt. Vernon, NY 10550
    914 / 667-8900
 
    Classical Westport, 4130 Pennsylvania, Kansas City, MO 64111
    816 / 753-0433
 
    The Ohio Valley Co., P.O. Box 553, West Carrollton, OH 45449
    513 / 298-4618
 
I've ordered from all but Ohio Valley and have been generally satisfied
with the service.  With the exception of Green Linnet, which is a label
itself, all carry a variety of labels.  Andy's, Down Home, Elderly, and
Alcazar may have the widest Celtic selections.
 
Celtic CDs are just starting to pop up.  The 86-87 Green Linnet catalog
I'm looking at lists just three:  two Christy Moore and one Moving
Hearts.  Additionally, Alcazar shows a Patrick Ball, an Alan Stivell, a
Pierre Bensusan, and a Makem and Clancy.  I'm sure I've read that
there's at least one Malicorne CD.  At a Tanahill Weavers concert about
a month ago, the person selling records said Green Linnet had promised
them a CD release soon.
 
When  "Fair Warning," "Against the Storm," "Promenade," and some other
old albums start coming out in CD, I guess I'll finally have to break
over and buy a player.
 
I'll mail you what I know about Columbus.
 
-- 
David C. Smith    Phone:  (614) 238-3183   <>   Autovon 850-3183
                  Uucp:   ...cbosgd!osu-cis!dsacg1!dcscg1!dsmith
DCSC-ZWR
P.O. Box 3990, Columbus, Ohio 43216-5000

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth16.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: Matriarchy in ancient Celts?
Posted: 27 Oct 87 19:50:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
Interesting side note to some of the comments about the
Christian church in Ireland:
 
The name MacTaggart (however spelled in English) is a corruption of:
 
Mac an tSagairt
 
Which means "Son of the priest."  
 
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
	"Ocus ba hairi no fertha leu acht cluchi
	ocus cheti ocus anius ocus aibinnius
	ocus longad ocus tomailt, conid de sin
	atat na trenae samna sechnon na hErend."
	     -as an sceal _Seirgligi Con Culaind inso sis ocus oenet Emire_ 

    Re .1: And Mac Nab means "son of the abbot", and Mac Pherson "son
    of the parson". Nothing strange in these names, they go back to
    the time, before the 11th century, when the priests could get married
    in a perfectly legal way. Celibacy was only for monks then. But
    then the pope decided that it was time to get a firmer grip on the
    clergy, and the obligation of celibacy was part of the decisions
    which were then taken and introduced into the cannonical laws.
    BTW, do you know that the oath a secular priest takes is of "celibacy",
    while the oath taken by a regular priest (a monk) is of "chastity"?
    This is still valid today and opens way to interesting speculations
    about a priest's sexual life.
    			Denis.

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  05-Nov-1987 2036"  5-NOV-1987 21:03
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.arts.sf-lovers
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!sri-spam!rutgers!uwvax!gumby!g-willia
Subject: Re: Matriarchy in ancient Celts?
Posted: 3 Nov 87 17:27:26 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Xref: decwrl soc.culture.celtic:431 rec.arts.sf-lovers:8611
 
 
 In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
 (James Moore) writes:
 >Interesting side note to some of the comments about the
 >Christian church in Ireland:
 >The name MacTaggart (however spelled in English) is a corruption of:
 >Mac an tSagairt
 >Which means "Son of the priest."  
 
 > Not only concubinage but polygyny was accepted in ancient Ireland,
 > even after the conversion to Christianity.  (For a while canon law
 > decreed that a *priest* could have only one wife!)
 
I thought that priests were allowed to have wives, children, and property
up until the Middle Ages (around the time of the Crusades). At this time,
land was becoming increasingly valuable, due to (for various reasons too
lengthy to go into) people living longer and more people surviving infancy.
The custom at the time was for a father to divide his lands up equally
among his sons. If a priest had sons who weren't going into the priesthood,
the priest's lands would leave the influence of the church. Thus, priests
were not allowed to marry, so when they died their lands would go to the
church.
 
 
 
-- 
					    Karen Williams
                                            [email protected]
 
"Everyone is entitled to an *informed* opinion." -- Harlan Ellison

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!thoth12.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: help
Posted: 4 Nov 87 16:40:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
In article <[email protected]> fiddler%[email protected] (Steve Hix) writes:
>If I *ever* hear anyone complain about how hard it is to figure English
>pronunciation from the spelling again, I'll strangle them with my bare
>hands!! (Cheerfully! :])
>
>	seh
 
Irish spelling is actually far more regular than English spelling.  You just
have to remove all thoughts of trying to pronounce Irish like you would English.
(You wouldn't try to pronounce 'Bordeaux' as 'bore-ducks,' would you?)
You just have to keep a few things in mind:
 
	1.  The only time an 'h' is actually pronounced like an English 'h' is
when it is the first character of a word.  Any time it shows up after a 
consonant, it is only a graphic rendition of a process in Irish called 
lenition.  (Sometimes you'll see characters written with a dot over them.  This
means exactly the same thing, and is just an older way of writing the same 
sound.) Rough equivilents in English of Irish lenited consonants are:
 
		bh:  'v' before 'i' and 'e,' 'w' everywhere else.
		ch: German 'ch'
		dh: 'y' before 'e', 'i'; growl everywhere else (I
		can't think of how to explain this one - English
		doesn't have anything like it.)
 
		fh:  Zip. Not pronounced at all.
		gh:  Identical to 'dh'
		hh:  This doens't occur.
		j:  Doesn't exist in Irish.
		k:  Doesn't exist in Irish.  (But 'c' is ALWAYS
		pronounced as a 'k,' never as 's')
		lh:  Doesn't occur
		mh:  Same as 'bh'
		nh:  Never occurs
		ph:  'f'  (not for the same reason that English
		pronounces this combination as 'f,' but both languages
		get the same result)
		q:  Doesn't exist in Irish
		rh:  You get this in Welsh, but never Irish.
		sh:  pronounced 'h'
		th:  pronounced 'h'
		v:  Used in loan words only (versai = verses, etc)
		w: doesn't exist in Irish
		x:    "      "
		y:    "      "
		z:    "      "
 
	2.  Any consonant or consonant cluster adjacent to either 'e'
	or 'i' is palatal (also called 'soft consonants').  Palatal
	consonants don't exist in English.  Essentially it means that
	your tounge is higher and more forward in your mouth when you
	pronounce the sound.  If you know anyone who speaks Russian,
	ask them to tell you what palatals should sound like.
		Palatal 's' is prounounced as English 'sh.'  That's
		why Sean is sometimes Anglicized as Shawn.
 
	
	3.  All vowels are prounounced; there isn't any equivilent of
	an English silent vowel.  Use French or German vowel sounds,
	rather than English.
 
	4.  Nasalization:  frequently you'll see consonant clusters
	that don't look like they can be pronounced. Don't panic.
	They aren't.
 
		mb:  (as in:  i mBaile Atha Cliath= in Dublin)  Only
		pronounce the 'm'.
 
		gc:  only proounce the g.
		nd:  'n'
		bhf:  'v' before 'i', 'e', 'w' everywhere else.
		ng:  Just like English 'ng' except that in Irish you
		can have it at the beginning of a word.
		bp:  'b'
		dt:	'd'
 
	5.  Comments about nasals and lenition:  These sound changes
	in Irish are caused by prepositions, articles, and sometimes
	nouns.  All the Celtic languages do something like it.  Welsh,
	for example, has three different mutations.  Example:  The
	word for cat is Irish is 'cat' (pronounced like English 'cot').
	The third person possessive is 'a' for all genders and numbers
	('a'= his, her, and their), so the only way you can tell them
	apart is by the mutation of the object:
 
		a cat:  her cat, as the feminine 3rd sing. doesn't
		mutate.
 
		a chat:  his cat, because the masc 3rd sing. causes
		lenition.
 
		a gcat:  their cat, becuase the 3rd plural causes
		nasalization.
 
 
	6.  The best way to figure it out is of course to find someone
	who speaks Irish and listen to them for a while.
 
	7.  Caveat:  This is a quick and dirty system, and it's not
	perfect (I'm sure lots of people will be posting corrections
	soon |-)   ).  Be aware that dialect differences are
	substantial.
 
	8.  Books:  Avoid "Teach Yourself Irish" like the plague.  The
	book my Irish class used was/is Mi`chea`l O` Siadhail,
	_Learning Irish_.  Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 
	1983.  (There isn't an ISBN number.)  (The  `mark means the
	character before it has a lower-left to upper-right accent
	mark - I haven't the faintest idea what these are called in
	English.)  There is really only one dictionary, Niall O
	Donaill, _Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla_.  Oifig an tSolathair, Baile
	Atha Cliath (Baile Atha Cliath=Dublin) 1977.  This is only
	Irish to English.  The inside front
	cover says:  (Using the ' mark instead of the `)
 
		Available from
		Oifig Dhi'olta Foilseacha'n Rialtais
		An Stuara, Ard-Oifig an Phoist
		Baile A'tha Cliath 1
		(Republic of Ireland)
		or from booksellers
 
	If there's a bookstore around you that sells Irish material,
	they might have it, but any bookstore should be able to order
	it for you.  There's also a pocket edition that has an English
	to Irish section.  It's published by An G'um
, and is called _Focl'oir P'oca_
 
 
Go n-eirigh an-fun libh |-),
 
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
	Ocus ni rabe isin bith ni dognethe
	n-eret sin leu acht cluchi
	ocus cheti ocus anius ocus aibinnius
	ocus longad ocus tomailt, conid de sin
	atat na trenae samna sechnon na hErend."
	     -as an sceal _Seirgligi Con Culaind inso sis ocus oenet Emire_ 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.arts.sf-lovers
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!ihnp4!homxb!mhuxt!mhuxm!mhuxo!ulysses!allegra!alice!wcs
Subject: Re: Historical fiction - was: Matriarchy in ancient Celts?
Posted: 4 Nov 87 04:14:31 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ
Xref: decwrl soc.culture.celtic:433 rec.arts.sf-lovers:8639
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Michael McNeil) writes:
> >In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
> >(James Moore) writes:
> >>Interesting side note to some of the comments about the
> >>Christian church in Ireland:
> >>The name MacTaggart (however spelled in English) is a corruption of:
> >>Mac an tSagairt > >>Which means "Son of the priest."  
> >> Not only concubinage but polygyny was accepted in ancient Ireland,
> >> even after the conversion to Christianity.  (For a while canon law
> >> decreed that a *priest* could have only one wife!)
 
More precisely, the *Bible* says that a deacon or bishop could only
have one wife; this got adapted to priests when a priesthood developed.
The concept of a celibate priesthood took a while to develop; some of
the Apostles were married (incl. Peter); Paul recommended staying
single because a married man has responsibilities to his wife&kids
which ma limit missionary work (people were constantly trying to kill
Paul, which broadened his perspective on the topic.)  While he did not
forbid marriage, his recommendations eventually became Roman Church
custom, and later law.  Some of those laws and customs were adopted by
the Celtic and Orthodox churches, but not all; I think most of the
Orthodox allow married priests.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!pyramid!prls!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!joet
Subject: Re: REAL Irish
Posted: 2 Nov 87 22:55:57 GMT
Organization: Multimate International, E. Hartford, CT.
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (paul  gilna) writes:
>Dia dhuit
> .
> .
>		How many of the people who subscribe
>		to this newsgroup are from Ireland? (I am)
>
>Cheers agus slan libh				Paul Gilna
>						...!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!pgil
>						[email protected]
 
Well, I am Irish, but I don't want to promote a spate of 
"me too" (or "mise freisin") articles.
 
I do want to point out that Paul has written a few words of Irish
without misspelling them, which is pretty unusual in this newsgroup.
 
And on the subject of the Irish/Gaelic language, a little request:-
A few months ago, before I learned how to post here, there was a 
discussion about English words derived from Irish, e.g. galore,
colleen, etc.  I found it interesting and after a while it seemed
that a pretty comprehensive list had been put together.  But one
little thing kept nagging me...  Someone who contributed several 
words to the list included this one: "smashing" is derived from
the Irish "is maith sin" (that's good).  That amazed me.  It
_sounds_ right and the meaning is right, but I just can't believe
it.  And I couldn't find any evidence for it.  If anyone has any
evidence for it, I'd be delighted and fascinated to hear it.  My
own explanation is... Coincidence (which explains a lot of things).
 
Go n'eirigh an bothar libh
 
				Joe
------
Joe Thornton			{!philabs!pwa-b,!ashtate}!mmintl!joet
 
========================================================================
Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.4/4.7.34)
	id AA22100; Wed, 4 Nov 87 17:13:28 PST

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!pyramid!prls!philabs!dml
Subject: Re: help
Posted: 3 Nov 87 17:43:35 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.
 
In article <[email protected]>, fiddler%[email protected] (Steve Hix) writes:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
> > In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Donie Collins 44091) writes:
> > >In the rec.music.misc group they are trying to figure out how to
> > >pronounce "Slainte Mhath". Can anyone explain it ?????
> 
> 	[ Explanation of how to pronounce the phrase deleted ]
> 
> If I *ever* hear anyone complain about how hard it is to figure English
> pronunciation from the spelling again, I'll strangle them with my bare
> hands!! (Cheerfully! :])
> 
> 	seh
 
I assume you mean that by comparison it is harder to determine
pronuciation of Irish words from their spelling. If so, I have to
disagree --- Irish has had at least one major revision and
standardization of its spelling, and it is relatively consistent now.
English (thanks to its global usage) could never have a spelling
revision (and make it stick). As a matter of fact, the generation of
dialects such as American English imply that the process is going in
the opposide direction to regularization of spelling.
 
I am not saying that Irish is "better" than English, simply that with a
smaller group of users you can standardize/regularize a language and
make it stick. Dutch, I believe, has had several successful
standardizations for exactly this reason.
 
	Damian.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!hc!beta!cmcl2!rutgers!pbox!okstate!uokmax!tegarvin
Subject: re: REAL Irish
Posted: 3 Nov 87 15:51:25 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma, Norman
 
I'm not from Ireland, but reside in Oklahoma (center of the cultural universe, if Hoyt Axton is to be believed... :-) ).  I've been listening to Celtic music (Silly Wizard, Clannad, Battlefield Band, the Chieftains, Boys of the Lough, etc) for several yea

rs.  Too bad, I read the critique of Tannahill Weavers' Passage *after* I had ordered it mail order.
 
Ted Garvin
tegarvin@uokmax
    

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  07-Nov-1987 1939"  7-NOV-1987 20:26
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik
Subject: Breton Organization
Posted: 5 Nov 87 00:05:34 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle
 
Anyone interested in the Breton language and/or culture should consider
joining the "International Committee for the Defense of the Breton
Language". It is a great source of information about all things
Breton--not just the Breton language.  It only costs about $10 or $12.
The Newsletter "Bro Nevez" is an additional $8.
 
For more information, write:
	Lois Kuter
	605 Montgomery Rd.
	Ambler, PA  19002
 
    [email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!amdahl!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Posted: 7 Nov 87 00:45:23 GMT
Organization: 3Com Corp., Santa Clara, CA
Xref: decwrl soc.women:13372 soc.culture.celtic:440
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Kenn Barry) writes:
>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Sarah Groves Hobart)
writes:
>>Hmm . . . I have heard that female Celtic warriors not only fought
>>right alongside their men; they were actually the more fiercesome and 
>>feared.  Can anyone support this?
>
>	I don't know if they made a habit of fighting with the men, but
>I'm surprised that no one has made mention of Boadicea in response to
>your question.
 
Poul and Karen Anderson's new historical-fantasy series The King of Ys
(consisting at present of two novels, *Roma Mater* and *Gallicenae*)
takes place in late Fourth Century A.D. Ireland, Britain, and France
(none of which existed as such then, of course), and embroiders its
fantasy on a solid rock of right-on history.  Each volume closes with
a lengthy appendix of historical notes, and one such reads as follows:
 
>Battle-scarred women:  Celtic women not uncommonly fought side by
>side with their men.
 
Sorry, I don't have a more direct reference to fighting Celtic women.
 
Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
	{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
	!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm
 
	"What matters it how far we go?" his scaly friend replied,
	"There is another shore, you know, upon the other side.  
	The farther off from England, the nearer is to France;
	Then turn not pale, beloved snail, but come and
		join the dance."  
			Lewis Carroll, *The Lobster Quadrille*

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!PT.CS.CMU.EDU!andrew.cmu.edu!pe09+
Subject: re: REAL Irish
Posted: 7 Nov 87 03:28:46 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
 
 
Here are at least two Eireannaigh checking in from the Pittsburgh Gaeltacht:
	Patrick Edmond
	Mike Buckley.
 
Sin a bhfuil, a chairde Ghaeil.

    From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  08-Nov-1987 1933"  8-NOV-1987 19:32
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod
Subject: Learning Gaelic
Posted: 4 Nov 87 01:41:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Research, Monterey, CA
 
I have the first Gaelic League tape, but I can barely get through the 
first lesson.  Is there a better way to learn if one has not had the
forsight to be born in the Hebrides?
 
Michael Sloan MacLeod

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!hplabs!gatech!pyr!eeproks
Subject: learning the language...
Posted: 7 Nov 87 23:18:06 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta
 
--
 
I have found the discussion of the Gealic language in this forum very
interesting.  I would be interested in learning Gealic if it is taught
anywhere.  Aside from growing up in the Scotland, how does one learn?
 
I'm learning Chinese...Gealic COULDN'T be harder than that...
 
Are there classes in the Atlanta, Ga., area?
 
Thanks...
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
K. J. Seefried iii
School of Information and Computer Science
P.O. Box 30104, Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,rutgers,seismo}!gatech!ken
internet: [email protected]

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  09-Nov-1987 1946"  9-NOV-1987 19:46
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth6.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: learning the language...
Posted: 9 Nov 87 00:09:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
I would imagine that there are summer programs in Scotland for people
just starting to learn Gaelic.  There's a Gaelic college on the Island
of Skye, and programs at Edinborough and Glasgow Universities in
Gaelic, and they should have information about any other programs.
You should be able to get addresses for these places at any library,
or contact the British Consulate where you live.
 
If you want to learn Irish, there are several summer courses
available.  I was in a program run by University College Galway last
summer, and had a great time.  It lasted for four weeks, with classes
eight hours a day, five days a week.  (And of course when we got out
of classes, we had to go practice speaking Irish in the pub |-)  )
There were about thirty students in the program, from the US, Canada,
Germany, Spain, Sweden, and Japan.  I had a wonderful time, and
learned a lot.  If you're going to do something like this, I would
suggest that you do as much work as you can before you go.  Find a
book on learning Irish (or Gaelic) and work through the whole thing.
You'll get much more out of the course than you would have otherwise.
There are also similar programs in Welsh (Side note:  a friend of mine
said that a MP was elected to a Welsh-speaking district who didn't
speak any Welsh.  After two weaks in an intensive language program, he
was able to give a radio interview entirely in Welsh.)
 
If you're interested in Irish, you might try writting to Institiuid
Teangeolaiochta Eireann (address:  31 Plas Mhic Liam, Baile Atha Cliath 2, 
Republic of Ireland; phone 765489) to see if they offer classes in the
United States, or if they have a list of available classes.  Other
good sources are Irish cultural groups, Irish import stores, places
that sell folk music, and univerities.  Be aware that even if a
university doesn't list Irish (or whatever) in their catalog that
doesn't mean that it isn't taught.  Try calling the English
department and asking if there is anyone on the faculty who does work
in Irish literature, then call that person and find out if they do any
work in Irish, or if they have any other information.
 
Go n-eirigh an t-adh libh,
	(=good luck),
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
	Ocus ni rabe isin bith ni dognethe
	n-eret sin leu acht cluchi
	ocus cheti ocus anius ocus aibinnius
	ocus longad ocus tomailt, conid de sin
	atat na trenae samna sechnon na hErend."
	     -as an sceal _Seirgligi Con Culaind inso sis ocus oenet Emire_ 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!clt
Subject: Re: learning the language...
Posted: 8 Nov 87 22:45:06 GMT
Organization: The Pennsylvania State University - Computation Center
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken Seefried iii) says:
>I'm learning Chinese...Gealic COULDN'T be harder than that...
     
It certainly could!  Chinese doesn't really have conjugations.  Spoken, it's
not really hard (all you have to remember are the inflections :-)) compared
to Gaelic.  I'm not too familiar with the ancient Gaelic-derivative languages,
but that's what I've gathered...
     
     
-------
"Altarwise by owl-light the dying man lay graveward with his Furies."
                                                 -Dylan Thomas
BITNET:   c1t@psuecla
UUCP:     clt%[email protected]
Internet: clt%[email protected]
     

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: learning the language...
Posted: 9 Nov 87 07:48:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
In article <24587CLT@PSUVMA> [email protected] (Christopher L. Tate) writes:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken Seefried iii) says:
>>I'm learning Chinese...Gealic COULDN'T be harder than that...
>     
>It certainly could!  Chinese doesn't really have conjugations.  
 
But Irish (and I'm pretty sure this applies to Gaelic as well) doesn't have
very many conjugations to remember either.  You only need to know one
form for each tense - this makes life really easy.  As far as I'm
concerned, the hardest part of Irish is putting complex sentances together. 
And you're still dealing with the Roman alphabet, which makes life
much easier.  (Caveat - I've never tried to learn Chinese |-)  )
 
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
	Ocus ni rabe isin bith ni dognethe
	n-eret sin leu acht cluchi
	ocus cheti ocus anius ocus aibinnius
	ocus longad ocus tomailt, conid de sin
	atat na trenae samna sechnon na hErend."
	     -as an sceal _Seirgligi Con Culaind inso sis ocus oenet Emire_ 

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  11-Nov-1987 1950" 11-NOV-1987 19:51
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!ll-xn!husc6!bloom-beacon!gatech!pyr!eeproks
Subject: Manx
Posted: 10 Nov 87 14:11:02 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta
 
--
 
Is Manx still a spoken language?  Can anyone give a little background on
this language?
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
K. J. Seefried iii
School of Information and Computer Science
P.O. Box 30104, Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,rutgers,seismo}!gatech!gitpyr!eeproks
                                             	  \-!gatech!gt-stratus!ken
internet: [email protected] || [email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ddsw1!dino
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Posted: 10 Nov 87 14:52:48 GMT
Organization: Traveller's Aid, Mundelein, IL
Xref: decwrl soc.women:13436 soc.culture.celtic:451
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Michael McNeil) writes:
>
>Sorry, I don't have a more direct reference to fighting Celtic women.
>
If the USA had a fighting red-headed Celtic woman president like Prime 
Minister Margaret Thatcher of England, we wouldn't be in half the trouble
we're in now from wimpy leadership.  
-- 
Laura Watson             ...ihnp4!ddsw1!dino
 
You can always tell luck from ability by its duration.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: IRISH
Posted: 11 Nov 87 07:24:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (the big guy with the funny accent) writes:
>Let's get one thing straight. The IRISH language is spoken in Ireland (or
>parts of Ireland, at least.) GAELIC is spoken in Scotland and is a dialect of
>Irish. 
 
Someone once said that a dialect is a language without an army and a navy.
(I believe it was in reference to Yiddish - if anyone knows where I got
this, send mail |-)  )  The differences that have developed between Irish
and Gaelic seem to be great enough that they can be called different languages.
 
 
 
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
	Ocus ni rabe isin bith ni dognethe
	n-eret sin leu acht cluchi
	ocus cheti ocus anius ocus aibinnius
	ocus longad ocus tomailt, conid de sin
	atat na trenae samna sechnon na hErend."
	     -as an sceal _Seirgligi Con Culaind inso sis ocus oenet Emire_ 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!imagen!atari!portal!cup.portal.com!Capitol-Crime
Subject: Re: learning the language...
Posted: 11 Nov 87 00:20:46 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
XPortal-User-Id: 1.1001.2683
 
I've seen a lot of Gaelic float across my screen, but no translations.  I'd
LOVE to see some side-by-side translations.  Are there any online?  Or could
y'all take the time and effort (occasionally) to send the translations.  (I
use "side-by-side" rather loosely...top and bottom is also acceptable.)
 
Go raibh maith agat,
  Stiobhan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!pyramid!prls!philabs!dml
Subject: Re: learning the language...
Posted: 10 Nov 87 17:41:31 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
> But Irish (and I'm pretty sure this applies to Gaelic as well) doesn't have
> very many conjugations to remember either.  You only need to know one
> form for each tense - this makes life really easy.  As far as I'm
 
Hmm, I believe thats too much of a simplification. Agreed the
separated format (Ta me vs Taim) conforms to this, but the use of the
non-separated form is quite widespread and in some moods the
non-separated form seems to be the norm (eg the "wishing" mood).
 
> concerned, the hardest part of Irish is putting complex sentances together. 
 
yup. I'd put the correct use of uru and seihmu up there with climbing Everest.
 
D.

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  12-Nov-1987 2008" 12-NOV-1987 20:12
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!ovation!sean
Subject: Re: IRISH
Posted: 11 Nov 87 18:26:43 GMT
Organization: 
 
> Ugh! You are welcome to that stuff they make in Scotland, but Ireland makes
> damn good whisk_ey.
> 
>  - Hugh Dunne
 
Here Here...  (do they try to make scotch taste like burnt cigars) 
 
										-Sean Browne

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!nrl-cmf!ukma!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill
Subject: Irish Origins of Scottish Culture?
Posted: 11 Nov 87 16:34:27 GMT
Organization: -
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (the big guy with the funny accent) writes:
>[...] but historically Scotland was settled from Ireland, and that's how
>they got their language, bagpipes, whisky, etc.
                          ^^^^^^^^
Hugh,
 
We all know the Irish gift for blarney (I hope my parish priest - from County
Clare - will forgive me :-), but I have seen no indication whatsoever that
the Irish were responsible for the Great Highland Bagpipe. (Most disavow any
responsibility whatsoever. :-)
 
All indications are that the bagpipe arrived in the British Isles from the
mainland about 1100 Anno Domini - after the Highland had been settled.
 
The Piob Mhor (Great Pipe) appeared in different forms in the Highlands and
Ireland. The only records of the Irish Piob Mhor show it as a very different
beast from the Highland, and the Irish apparently did not develop much music
for it - the only written records (I know of) describe it as a "war-pipe",
with the pipe(r)s of opposing sides bellowing at each other. Its construction
was apparently optimized for volume, not music.
 
The Highland Pipe, on the other hand, developed as a musical instrument
instead, borrowing, tradition has it, from the music of the Highland harp
(again a quite different beast from the Irish harp) its classical music
Piobaireachd. Its use in battle came some time later in its history.
 
The Irish Piob Mhor is extinct. The only Irish Pipe left is the Uillean, the
most modern of pipes and apparently a descendant of the Northumbrian pipe.
 
 
Another point: There is an old (Irish) joke that goes something like: The
Irish gave the Scots the kilt, and the Scots still haven't seen the joke.
 
Where does this come from? The sources I've seen indicate that up until about
1600 the Highlanders and the Irish dressed alike (leane croich (sp?), long
linen shirt?), but that at about that time the Highlanders began to develop
the kilt.
 
 
-- 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!hplabs!hp-sdd!ucsdhub!sdcsvax!ames!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: Re: Irish Origins of Scottish Culture?
Posted: 12 Nov 87 05:06:41 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (William Swan) writes-
}The only records of the Irish Piob Mhor show it as a very different
}beast from the Highland, and the Irish apparently did not develop much music
}for it - the only written records (I know of) describe it as a "war-pipe",
}with the pipe(r)s of opposing sides bellowing at each other. Its construction
}was apparently optimized for volume, not music.
}
That sounds familiar! A lot of people in Ireland refer to the Scottish pipes
as the "war pipes". (A Texan friend of mine calls them "the agony bags".)
I've often heard Irish musicians saying that the Highland pipes make you want
to get up and march off to war, while the Uillean pipes make you want to get
up and dance. (Just a sec while I put on my asbestos suit :~) )
 
 - Hugh Dunne
 
"Only we can prevent forests."
      - agent orange pilots' motto
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Dunne, Dept. of Mathematics, University of Arizona, Tucson AZ  85721
         [email protected]  /  [email protected]
         ..{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
         Phone: +1 602 621 6893  /  +1 602 621 4766
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  17-Nov-1987 2011" 17-NOV-1987 20:19
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!uj0
Subject: Re: Re: IRISH
Posted: 12 Nov 87 23:54:29 GMT
Organization: The Forest of WYLFF
 
Allright... Enough of this nastiness...
     
I'll have to admit I posted that bit to provoke responses, since I'm new
to NET-ing and was curious to see how well things get outside of my little
Penn State environment, but I think some of those responses were a bit
much...
     
For one thing, I was led to think that the Celts were not IRISH, but a people
before the "Irish" or "Scots", who settled the islands and from whom we
are, more or less, descended.
     
Another thing... I also thought that there was once an original Gaelic tongue,
from which the modern Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic have descended.
     
... but I suppose I could be wrong
     
Also, I don't much like squabbling over where what came from, that
bagpipes and whisky (Uisge if you want to tell me how to spell) came from
Ireland and so on... I could tell you that all that nice Celtic art came
from the Picts, or that without the Scots, Belfast would be underwater
(not a bad thought, actually), but that should not matter.
     
AND there's nothing wrong with being proud.  If I wasn't, I wouldn't be here.
     
Since I'm mostly of Scottish blood, I do admit to having a conditioned
bias, but I'm willing to admit it, such as the fact that I very much do
prefer Scotch whisky, since the only kind of Irish whiskey I've ever tried
(Jamesons) struck me as being the worst thing I could ever imagine drinking.
 ((much worse than old stale cigars))
     
Can we please get on to more legitimate pursuits now?
-------
\-----------------------------------------------------------/
|               In Saxon:                      ____    ____ |
|             waes hael...   drinc hael...       \\ .. //   |
|                                                  \\//     |
|                  . : W Y L F F : .                ||      |
|                                                .. || ..   |
|     bitnet  UJ0%[email protected]        ||      |
|   internet  UJ0%[email protected]    ----     |
/-----------------------------------------------------------\
     

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!bbn!keesan
Subject: Re: help
Posted: 13 Nov 87 16:18:14 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambdridge MA
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (James Moore) writes:
>
> . . . Rough equivalents in English of Irish lenited consonants are:
>
>		dh: 'y' before 'e', 'i'; growl everywhere else (I
>		can't think of how to explain this one - English
>		doesn't have anything like it.)
 
Well, I've heard authentic Irish people pronounce this both as a 'd' and as a
hard 'g'.  It varies regionally.  The "official" pronunciation that I was
taught, which James Moore is describing here as a growl, is the voiced version
of the guttural 'ch'.  It bears the same relationship to the 'ch' sound that
the English hard 'g' does to 'k'.  I think of it more as a sort of gargling
sound than a growl.  Start to pronounce a 'g', but instead of letting the back
of your tongue contact the soft palate, start to voice the sound and let the
entire back of your mouth vibrate.
 
There are other instances where the 'dh' is none of the above.  When it's
following a vowel and not preceding one, it merely serves to change the sound
of the preceding vowel, as in "bodhran", where the dh is commonly silent in
most people's pronunciation, but properly should change the sound from something
like 'borran' to something like 'bowran' (approximately).
-- 
Morris M. Keesan
[email protected]
{harvard,decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!bbn!keesan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!imagen!atari!portal!cup.portal.com!Capitol-Crime
Subject: Re: IRISH
Posted: 13 Nov 87 03:39:22 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
XPortal-User-Id: 1.1001.2683
 
I have developed a hunger for Tullamore Dew, a wonderful example of Uisge Beath
(the Water of Life).  However, I must rely on friends going to Europe to feed
this hunger.  Does anyone KNOW why they stopped distribution in the US??
 
The lack of a reliable source, has stopped me from drinking. [grin]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!gatech!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!hd6
Subject: Miscinfo/Req. for Scots-Gaelic info
Posted: 13 Nov 87 10:44:49 GMT
Organization: The Pennsylvania State University - Computation Center
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  CELADHAEARN            <<BITNET hd6%[email protected]           --
--  R. Carl Hoffman              or hd6%[email protected]           --
--  hd6@psuvma                      Soon, also: hd6@psuvm       >>           --
--                                                                           --
--  "ONCE AGAIN: Celtic is the people, "seltic" is the basketball team!"     --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: Re: IRISH
Posted: 14 Nov 87 07:18:11 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:
}I have developed a hunger for Tullamore Dew, a wonderful example of Uisge Beath
}(the Water of Life).  However, I must rely on friends going to Europe to feed
}this hunger.  Does anyone KNOW why they stopped distribution in the US??
}
}The lack of a reliable source, has stopped me from drinking. [grin]
 
Just one small point, in Irish it's Uisce Beatha.
 
I don't know the answer to your question, but when I first came to the states
I immediately went in search of Smithwicks' Ale. I thought this should be no
problem in Boston, but a thorough search of the watering holes ended in
failure. Some time later I heard that Smithwicks and Bass had an agreement
that they wouldn't market in each other's territory. Seems that Bass has North
America sewn up. Bummer!
 
Incidentally, there is a new oasis in the southern Arizona desert! The Harp &
Shamrock, at Kolb and Golf Links, serves genuine draught Guinness.
 
Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }

Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!gatech!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!homxb!houxl!margie
Subject: Cherish the Ladies
Posted: 13 Nov 87 22:54:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Holmdel
Xref: decwrl rec.music.folk:908 soc.culture.celtic:470
 
Last Sunday, 11/8, I attended a concert which is part
of a tour called "Cherish the Ladies". It is a concert
featuring some of the U.S's finest Irish-American women
performers which is being sponsored by the Ethnic Folk Arts Center
with the support of the National Endowment for the Arts
and the New York State Council of the Arts.
The performers in the tour currently include 5 musicians,
3 step-dancers and 1 sean-nos and ballad singer.
I mainly went to the concert because I am friends with
the 7 performers who are NY-based and as a group our friends
try to support our performing friends whenever we can.
 
Based on my knowledge of their abilities, I expected
an afternoon of excellent traditional music, but what
I got instead was the most enjoyable concert of traditional
music than I had seen in a long time. The selections, including
both old and new, the easy-going stage banter, and a very
good display of some of the features of our spur-of-the-moment
sessions created a very pleasant show.
 
During the show, I thought that maybe it was livelier than
some of the other shows they had done, because many friends and
family were in the audience. But in reality, as I found out from
conversations after the show, it was one of the least lively of
the shows probably partially because of a successful show and
after-show party in Philly the night befor.
 
Anyway, I hope that this does not sound too prejudiced and I
hope that if any of you can make it to any of the remaining concerts
that you will do so. The "Ladies" are heading out to the Midwest
and West coast to finish up their fall tour. Rumor has it that
someone is trying to organize a spring tour.
 
The performers participating in the concert are:
	Mary Coogan (NY) - guitar
	Maureen Doherty (NY) - 2-row button accordian, flute and tin whistle
	Siobhan Egan (Phil) - fiddle
	Bridget Fitzgerald (Bos) - sean-nos singer
	Eileen Golden (NY) - step dancer
	Eileen Ivers (NY) - fiddle
	Maureen Kennelly (NY) (native SF) - step dancer
	Joanie Madden (NY) - flute and tin whistle
	Mairead Powell (NY) - step dancer
 
The remaining shows on the tour are:
	11/14 - Old Town School of Folk Music, Chicago, IL
	11/15 - Kane Hall, U. of Wash., Seattle, WA
	11/17 - Palace of Fine Arts, S.F., CA
	11/19 - Downey Theatre, Downey, LA County, CA
	11/20 - location to be announced, Los Angeles, CA
		(sponsored by United Irish Societies of Southern Ca.)
	11/21 - Austin Opera House, Austin, TX
 
I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to post this sooner and I hope
that my late posting doesn't prevent anyone from getting a chance
to see this concert.
 
					Margie O'Driscoll
					{ihnp4,allegra}!houxl!margie

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  19-Nov-1987 2008" 19-NOV-1987 20:17
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!sri-spam!ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod
Subject: Guinness: draft vs. bottled
Posted: 16 Nov 87 07:27:44 GMT
Organization: Digital Research, Monterey, CA
 
Now, over the years I have heard many thing about this drink. Some of 
them are: The bottled stuff in America is nothing like the real stuff
at home.  Draft Guinness in the USA is different than bottled.  Draft
in the USA is different than draft in Ireland.  And so on.
 
What's the definitive word on this, from serious drinkers who have 
done enough broad research to address these compelling questions?
 
Michael Sloan MacLeod

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill
Subject: Re: Irish Origins of Scottish Culture?
Posted: 16 Nov 87 20:15:10 GMT
Organization: Seattle Piping Society, Seattle WA
 
In <443> [email protected] (the big guy with the funny accent):
>>The only records of the Irish Piob Mhor show it as a very different beast
>>from the Highland, and the Irish apparently did not develop much music for
>>it - [...] records [...] describe it as a "war-pipe" [...] optimized for
>>volume, not music.
>
>That sounds familiar! A lot of people in Ireland refer to the Scottish pipes
>as the "war pipes". (A Texan friend of mine calls them "the agony bags".)
>I've often heard Irish musicians saying that the Highland pipes make you want
>to get up and march off to war, while the Uillean pipes make you want to get
>up and dance. (Just a sec while I put on my asbestos suit :~) )
 
Oh no, not the "war pipes" discussion again...
 
(Summary: Gaelic "Piob Mhor", pn. approx. "peeb-war" to us English-speakers,
and meaning Great-Pipe, is given by some as the origin of the term war-pipe.
Others cite the British Army's use of the pipe as a martial instrument as 
the origin. Who knows?)
 
But since you wanted flames (:-), I should like to point out that the Irish
pipers with their wee little pipes that do naught but lie across their laps
are just a mite jealous of those of us possessers of the truly great Pipes
of Glory that stand right up proudly when called to their duty. 
 
 
(Disclaimer: I enjoy the Irish pipes. A preference for a particular pipe,
like whisk{e}y, is a personal matter, and should not be construed as a
matter of superiority!)
 
-- 
William Swan  {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill =====O
"Old Pipers never die, they just blow away.."                       *\:-)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!elroy!devvax!jplpro!brucem
Subject: Re: Guinness: draft vs. bottled
Posted: 17 Nov 87 16:45:43 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena CA.
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (MacLeod) writes:
>Now, over the years I have heard many thing about this drink. Some of 
>them are: The bottled stuff in America is nothing like the real stuff
>at home.  Draft Guinness in the USA is different than bottled.  Draft
>in the USA is different than draft in Ireland.  And so on.
>
>What's the definitive word on this, from serious drinkers who have 
>done enough broad research to address these compelling questions?
>
>Michael Sloan MacLeod
 
I don't know how definitive this is, but I just got back from a vacation
in Ireland and a visit to the Guinness brewery at St. James' Gate (65 acres
of heaven).  The stuff they dispense there seems to me to be much smoother
and possibly less alcoholic.  Unlike the stout here in the US, it is so
creamy and heady, they have to draught the glass, which the first filling
is about 7/8 head, let it settle for a few minutes, then top it off.
 
Went to a show at the Gaiety Theatre (Brendan Behan's "Borstal Boy" for those
who care),and at the interval made a mad dash to the bar (along with 
everyone else), got my Guinness just in time for the gong for the second
act, had to chug the darned thing.  No problem, slid down like silk, nice
rich, dark, creamy, just the least touch of bitterness (enough for character,
not obnoxious) and it didn't blast my system at all.  I'm a pretty light-weight
drinker, too.  It seems to be less effervescent, less like an ale or lager
in the bubble department.
 
In case you haven't guessed, I like it a whole bunch, and now have to get
some locally available stuff, draft and bottle, to compare again.  I highly
recommend getting it on its home turf, however.  The rest of the country is
also an excellent excuse!!!
 
--Bruce McLaughlin,   NASA/JPL  Pasadena, Ca
(They scarcely know who I am, much less endorse what I say!)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!cornell!svax!patrick
Subject: Guinness: draft vs. bottled - The answer
Posted: 17 Nov 87 18:34:28 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY
 
Draught and bottled Guinness are two very different beers, even in Ireland.
(In fact, one can even buy "bottled draught Guinness").
 
Both draught and bottled Guinness are modified somewhat for the U.S.
market - partly for marketing reasons, and partly, I suspect,
for practical/regulatory reasons (for example, Irish bottled Guinness
is unpasturized - I'm not sure if it would travel well).
 
This information is based on my memory of my father's comments - he
works in the Dublin brewery.  I'm pretty sure it's accurate, although
I didn't specifically check with him for the purposes of this article.
 
Pat Stephenson.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!PT.CS.CMU.EDU!andrew.cmu.edu!rr23+
Subject: Language
Posted: 18 Nov 87 07:48:13 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
 
Could somebody please send (to me or board) titles of the best books
(cassetes even) to learn the Irish language from.
Any and all information is considered and appreciated; hopefully one of the
libraries or bookstores near me will have these books.
 
-Ronald G. Redmond
 
P.S. I know this subject was breached but I saw only one tape thus far
mentioned and there are no professors at my place of study who know this
wonderful language.
 
Erin Go Braugh
(Thats about the extent of my skills and I'm sure thats wrong.)

Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!hplabs!sdcrdcf!burdvax!udel!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!fluke!witters
Subject: Re: Cherish the Ladies
Posted: 18 Nov 87 18:24:04 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Xref: decwrl rec.music.folk:919 soc.culture.celtic:476
 
I saw them last weekend at the University of Washington in Seattle.  I thought
the show was kind of laid back too, but a very good performance anyway.  I
wanted to go to the ceileih (sp?) after the show, but didn't because I had to
work the next day.  I'll definitely go back to see them again if they go on
tour next Spring.  They may need to get a bigger hall though since Kane Hall
was sold out!
 
 
-- 
I'm not a lumberjack and I'm not O.K.		John Witters	(206) 356-5274
						John Fluke Mfg. Co.  Inc.
cryptography DES drugs cipher NSA CIA DIA	P.O.B. C9090 M/S 245F
NRO IRS coke crack missile atom Libyan RSA	Everett, Washington  98206

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  21-Nov-1987 1944" 21-NOV-1987 19:45
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbvax!husc6!necntc!drilex!tomr
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 20 Nov 87 18:10:57 GMT
Organization: Data Resources/McGraw-Hill, Lexington, MA
 
 
A few Guinness anecdotes:
 
First, to my chigrin, I'm not a big fan of Guinness Stout.  It's a
brew that looks better than it tastes, to me -- but I so enjoyed
watching the pints and glasses lined up on the bar in the Irish pubs
that I visted during my trip this past summer.  I have a good friend
who loves the stuff, who tells me, "It's FOOD!  You have to CHEW it!!
And what's more, Guinness is GOOD for you!!"
 
(Yup.  I know the slogan.)
 
My dad visited the Guinness brewery in 1985, and at the conclusion of
the tour, he was handed a glass and told that he could sample as much
Stout as he could consume in one half hour -- or he could drink orange
juice, the "temperate" alternative.  He took a glass of Guinness,
sipped it, then decided that it wasn't for him.  He approached the
bartender, and asked, "Could you please pour this out and give me some
orange juice."
 
The response:  "What?!!"
 
He repeated, "Could you pour this out, please.  I'd like orange
juice."
 
The bartender's eyes grew wide.  "You want me to pour it OUT?!!"  (So
what does he expect from a Yank?)
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I bring labor trouble, and good weather, wherever I go.  This summer,
not two days after arriving at Rosslaire and buying my CIE "Rambler"
Bus/Rail pass, all the CIE busses in Eire shut down, leaving me to
hitch in the fine summer weather.
 
One day, I'd been heading from Killorgan to Galway, and I'd reached
Ennis in Clare, when I could get no more rides.  I packed it in at a
B&B, then wandered into the town to find a pub, using my usual
technique for locating a "good" one, one that the local people drink
in, not one where American tourists in newly-purchased Aran jumpers
gather to drink Budweiser and talk baseball.  This technique:  go to a
newsagent, and purchase whatever the local paper is -- not the
_Irish_Times_ or what have you, but the one printed in the locality
in which one is staying.  Then, as you buy it, ask the newsagent where
he/she likes to go for a drink.  And go there.
 
And I went there.  As I sat at the bar in this place-of-forgotten-
name, next to a man about my age (27), who was nursing a Guinness, I
queried, "Did you enjoy your first one of those?"
 
"No," he said, "I did not.  But after awhile, you get to like it.
They say it's good for you."
 
(Yup.  I KNOW the slogan.)
 
Anyway, the pint was helping him make a major decision:  whether to
propose marriage to his SO (my term, not his).  He wanted to discuss
it with me.  I began by telling him that I wasn't married, and that I
couldn't make such a decision for him.
 
We ended the discussion some two hours later, with me reciting a
nearly identical lesson:  that he'd still need to decide for himself.
But in between there were many stouts, and many Smithwick's (THAT's
what I drank in Ireland.  If only America could make a good ale ...!),
enough so that I remembered that night in the pub, the following
morning.
 
So we ended where we began, which I concluded, clearly demonstrates
that the fun is in getting there.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Final anecdote:  I did attempt to drink Guinness in Ireland, on my
second night in the country.  I walked into a pub on the quay in Cork,
and announced that I'd get a Guinness.
 
Replied the bar matron:  "Not in here, ye won't!"  That's when I
first heard of Murphy's Lady's Well Brewery, in Cork.
 
"If ye want a Guinness, why don't ye go to Dublin?!"
-- 
*--Tom Revay---Data Resources, 24 Hartwell Ave., Lexington, MA 02173-*
|  Phone:      (617) 863-5100                                        |
|  UUCP:       {ll-xn,harvard!axiom,necntc}!drilex!tomr              |
*--Disclaimer: "But that's what plausible deniability is all about!"-*

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!hplabs!sri-unix!sri-spam!mordor!lll-tis!ames!nrl-cmf!ukma!rutgers!clyde!burl!codas!mtune!whuts!bcpm
Subject: Re: Language
Posted: 19 Nov 87 19:44:02 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
> Could somebody please send (to me or board) titles of the best books
> (cassetes even) to learn the Irish language from.
> Any and all information is considered and appreciated; hopefully one of the
> libraries or bookstores near me will have these books.
> 
> -Ronald G. Redmond
> 
 
Taking a suggestion I found here, from James Moore, I think, I went in search
of _Learning_Irish_.  Of course the bookstore didn't have a copy in stock, but
low and behold, the title is currently listed in _Titles_in_Print_ which just
about every bookstore and library has.  There are two options:  a paperback
listed at $15 and a hardback with tapes for $45.  A friend is buying it for
me as a Christmas gift.  I'm sure a bookstore in your area would be happy to
place a similar order for you.
 
					B. Maloney
					at Bell Telephone Laboratories
					Whippany, NJ
					...!ihnp4!whuts!bcpm
					...!seismo!gatech!akgua!whuts!bcpm
 
Go Home!  Go Home:  Use your phone!
						-- Tracey Ullman

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  22-Nov-1987 1944" 22-NOV-1987 19:47
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!pilchuck!amc!tikal!sigma!bill
Subject: Re: Irish Origins of Scottish Culture?
Posted: 20 Nov 87 21:43:24 GMT
Organization: Seattle Piping Society, Seattle WA
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (John Witters) writes:
>>Oh no, not the "war pipes" discussion again...
>
>This discussion reminds me of a joke I heard from my father, who probably 
>heard it when he was in Britain during WWII.  Supposedly, the Irish gave
>the Scots the Bagpipes as a joke.  The Scots haven't seen the joke yet.
>
>Anyone know where I can get an asbestos suit?
 
This is the first I've heard it used for the bagpipe - usually the item
in question is the kilt. 
 
I've seen no support for the contention that the Scots got either the
kilt or the pipe from the Irish.  Language, yes, whisk{e}y, I'm sure,
and harp, probably, but not the pipe and kilt.
 
Why do you want an asbestos suit?
 
-- 
William Swan  {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill =====O
"Old Pipers never die, they just blow away.."                       *\:-)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: Irish Origins of Scottish Culture?
Posted: 22 Nov 87 17:28:43 GMT
Organization: House of Scotland Pipe Band, San Diego, California
 
Another name for the pipes is the "Scottish breathalyzer test."  (This from the
Tannahill Weavers)
 
 
 
James Moore
..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
 
========================================================================
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From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  30-Nov-1987 2039" 30-NOV-1987 20:54
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,rec.woodworking,soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.makers
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!hd6
Subject: Willow for Irish harp
Posted: 23 Nov 87 22:39:18 GMT
Organization: The Pennsylvania State University - Computation Center
Xref: decwrl rec.music.folk:923 rec.woodworking:362 soc.culture.celtic:490 rec.music.makers:1145
 
use in building an Irish harp.  The neo-Irish harp is constructed using a
"box-type" soundbox (6 seperate sides, fitted together), but I am attempting
to create a more authentic instrument, with the soundbox hollowed out of a
single (hopefully) piece of wood, or two pieces laminated together if not.
  EdLCo in W.VA (I think) has two-inch thick pieces, which would be sufficient,
if not ideal, but the minimum order is 200 board-feet, which is far too much
wood (and money) for my purposes.
  At a minimum, I need wood sufficient to construct a 12"x36"x4" soundbox,
and also preferably enough to construct the neck and forepillar from.  Two-
inch (8/4) thick pieces are preferable to one-inch (4/4) wood, but my ideal
(for which I am beginning to give up hope), is to find a single 4" piece,
and build entirely in "the old style."  Any help which can be given will be
enormously appreciated.
                                            CELADHAEARN
                                            R. Carl Hoffman
                                            [email protected]
-------
 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
( _X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X_ )
 X                                    :                                      X
| |  CELADHAEARN  [R. Carl Hoffman]   : " . .'scap jah matjan jah drighan,' | |
 X   1:[email protected] (note change) : what worthy verse can sound when     X
| |  2:hd6%[email protected] : such cries thicken !"      Gildas   | |
 X_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _X
(__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__X__)
     
     

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.celtic,soc.men,soc.women,soc.singles,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.indian
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc13!co111fat
Subject: summary of stereotypes
Posted: 24 Nov 87 21:43:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Xref: decwrl soc.culture.greek:230 soc.culture.japan:252 soc.culture.china:171 soc.culture.celtic:491 soc.men:3908 soc.women:13765 soc.singles:16698 soc.culture.african:91 soc.culture.jewish:3703 soc.culture.indian:4205
 
 
Okay, here they are, the long awaited results 
of my stereotype research.  For those of you who missed the original
posting, I sent out a note asking people if they'd mind describing
some stereotypes.  What I wanted to do was find out how various
stereeotypes differed from country to country.  I received many
answers (THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR RESPONDING), but I'll just present
here the contrasts.  
 
Okay, so here goes!
 
Response from Japan
 
American     \
Canadian      \  all have blue eyes, light brown hair and fat
Russian      /
German     /
 
Japanese               short, skinny, black hair, black eyes
 
Response from Denmark
 
German            young, long hair, anti-war, pro-peace, No Nukes
                  buttons everywhere.
 
 
Response from Canada
 
German           hearty, heavy ruddy, drinking beer, booming sort,
                 strong commitment to values and culture.
Finnish          light skinned
Italian          big mothers who dominate the house, always have
                 arms open for hugs, huge family, very emotional.
 
Response from Finland
Canadian        big, sturdy, plaid shirt, chopping wood, loggers
American        skinny, spends a lot of money, pro-American, worried
                about when the next workout is, wears perfectly
                matched jogging outfits, has cat-eyed glasses with
                jewels in the corners.
 
Response from India
 
American       drinks, beats his wife, has sexual innuendos.  The
               wife sits around all day, watches soaps, ignores the
               kids, eats McDonalds, has machines that do all of
               her work.  The kids eat potato chips, ignore mom,
               listen to Michael Jackson and Madonna all day.
 
Response from England
 
American       cowboy, red necked, has sexual innuendos, chained to
               his car, is anti-group, knows no history, has no
               morals, and is against tradition.
 
Response from Ireland
 
American       fat, smokes cigar, doesn't spend any money, has
               camera around neck, wears ugly Hawaiin shirts,
               has black hair, is pro-American, will believe
               anything about faires, shamrocks or angels.
 
Response from Palestan (sp?)
 
Mexican       lazy, sneaky, wears sombrero, sits in the sun with his
              tequila, short, rowdy, jealous of American life, lives
              for today, damns tomorrow, has lots of kids, likes
              noisy parties, tends towards bright colors.
 
Everyone's View of
 
Japanese     Hard working, uncaring if not hay, live in tiny homes,
             eat sushi, xenophobic, pro-American, complex, selfish
             black hair, black eyes, unoriginal and will steal 
             an idea and call it theirs.
Russian      pessimistic, fat but doesn't care, drinks vodka, eats
             potatoes, dull clothes, dark hair, dark eyes.  
 
Remember, these are just what I compiled.  They don't reflect what I
feel.  If you're going to flame, don't flame at me.  Some of the
answers I did get went further into detail about personalities and
habits, but they aren't included here.  If you'd like to discuss
this, or some other findings, please write me.  I would be more than
happy to discuss stereotypes with you.  If you feel that I did not
represent your own answers, please let me know.  I had a lot of
information to compile, and through my own interpretations of your
answers, I might have lost some of the meaning.  
 
Thanks again for you help!
 
Chris Englert
:-)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!gregp
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 24 Nov 87 03:18:45 GMT
Organization: Boeing Aerospace Corp., Seattle WA
 
 
Several stouts that I have come to love (and have been told by persons who
may or may not know what they are talking about) are much closer to what
stouts are like in Ireland and England are Mackeson, Whatney's Cream, and
Samual Smith's (several varieties, I like Oatmeal).  To my palate these are
far superior to the Guiness one can get (bottled or draft) here in the 
Pacific Northwest.
One result of the trend towards supersupermarkets is that they are large enough
to stock such things.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Paddock
Boeing Aerospace

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!hplabs!hpcea!hpfcdc!hpldola!hjh
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 23 Nov 87 16:28:01 GMT
Organization: HP Elec. Design Div. -ColoSpgs
 
While we're on the topic of Guinness, I once had a Guinness cake.
It was rather like a sherry cake but made with Guinness.
 
Would anyone out there happen to have a recipe for such a cake?
 
Some of my friends don't enjoy the liquid form of Guinness.
Perhaps they can learn to appreciate it from a cake perspective.
 
Thanks in advance.
   Heather Hubbard
   hpldola!hjh

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!TRADER
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 26 Nov 87 21:54:17 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
XPortal-User-Id: 1.1001.2271
 
Let's see - Guinness and other brews in the USA vs. European
origins. Since I have some kinship (My original family name
was MCGUINNESS - which is from County Down in Ulster - oops!
wrong side of the border!!!) maybe I can throw my opinions in.
Since I live in a large metropolitan area, there are sources
for imported beers and ales. And thus, there are some strong
brews available. Some beers and ales seem to get past the
Customs authorities in original form. Other stronger brews,
particularly German brews are required to be labelled as
"malt liquor" which kind of reminds one of the horrible
American malt liquors like Olde English 800 which are so
foul as to cause one's eyes to water!!! Don't be fooled!
These Germa brews are the original article.
 
(Beer and ale anecdote here - I went into an Irish pub here
in the States and without thinking, ordered a Bass ale. The
bartender stood up, glowered, and said in a deep voice,
 
WE DON'T SERVE -THAT- HERE, SIR!!! I quickly figured out that
it was wiser to order a Harp lager... Being half English, I forgot
how touchy some Irishmen are about the whole thing...)
 
Two really good non-Irish beers that I heartily recommend if you
can find them in their original form are:
 
Cerveza Panama - Republic of Panama
T'sing-Tao - People's Republic of China
 
                                     Paul McGinnis
                                     [email protected]
                                     [email protected]
                                     [email protected]
 
"I am resplendent in divergence" - Brian Eno

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  03-Dec-1987 1943"  3-DEC-1987 19:49
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!husc6!rutgers!rochester!PT.CS.CMU.EDU!andrew.cmu.edu!rr23+
Subject: LANGUAGE
Posted: 3 Dec 87 07:57:11 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
 
 
THANKS Jerry, and Mr. Maloney's post.
For you Elizabeth.
 
>@Bold{Date}: Wed, 18 Nov 87 17:09:24 GM
>@Bold{From}: Jerry Harper <[email protected]>
>@Bold{To}: [email protected]
 
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Language
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
>In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
>Organization: EuroKom, University College Dublin
>Cc: 
 
>Hello,
>Soliciting recommendations of textbooks from net sources is more likely to
>confuse you than suggest the appropriate choice of text/tape.  My own
>advice is to write to the addresses below requesting information - you
>should find them very helpful, if not let me know and I'll raise a mild
>storm.
> The Linguistics Institute of Ireland          An GUM
> 31 Fitzwilliam Place                          Government Publications
> Dublin 2                                      44 O'Connell St.
> Republic of Ireland                            Dublin 1
>Having done that you *must* write to the Irish embassy in Washington as
>it keeps a supply of teach-yourself-Irish materials.  The embassy will
>be happy to help you I assume.  When you write to An GUM above if you
>enclose $15 dollars you can buy a copy of O'Baoill's 'Focloir Poca' and
>its accompanying pronounciation tape.  The Focloir Poca is a very handy
>English-Irish/Irish English dictionary and the pronounciation tape is
>obviously very useful.  If you have any further questions please don't
>hesitate to ask.  Also since you are in CMU I suggest you seek out
>Mary Hegarty in the Psychology department who is from Dublin and has 
>met me once or twice.
>Regards, Jerry
>Jerry Harper
>Educational research Centre, Dublin 9, Ireland
>[email protected]
>jerry_harper_erc%[email protected]
>jerry_harper_erc%[email protected]
 
Again my thanks to Jerry Harper, and my pleasure to post.
 
--Ronald G. Redmond

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  04-Dec-1987 1949"  4-DEC-1987 20:26
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ll-xn!husc6!necntc!drilex!tomr
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 3 Dec 87 19:34:04 GMT
Organization: Data Resources/McGraw-Hill, Lexington, MA
 
 
Paul McGinnis has written:
 
> My original family name was MCGUINNESS - which is from County Down in
> Ulster - oops! wrong side of the border!!!
 
Hmmm ... I expect you were joking about that.  I mean, does it really
make a difference whether your family came to America from the part of
Ireland that became the Republic, or the part that became "Ulster
Province" (as it's come to be called)?  I don't think it does, or
should.
 
Actually, on my next trip to Ireland (which probably won't be this
coming year, unfortunately, due to the demise of the not-so-Almighty
Dollar), I want to visit the North.  I met a man from Derry, who
recommended the place, tho' not during Marching Season ... but he
pointed out that it's probably the last European city with an intact
city wall.
 
(I'm reminded now of The Dubliners', "The Town I Knew So Well," a very
sad song about Derry).
 
Plus, Giants Causeway seems to be a fascinating place.
 
> (Beer and ale anecdote here - I went into an Irish pub here
> in the States and without thinking, ordered a Bass ale. The
> bartender stood up, glowered, and said in a deep voice,
>
> WE DON'T SERVE -THAT- HERE, SIR!!! I quickly figured out that
> it was wiser to order a Harp lager... Being half English, I forgot
> how touchy some Irishmen are about the whole thing...)
 
Yeah, I can believe that, and I ask myself why it makes any difference
-- I mean, if you want an ale, you want an ale! And since Smithwick's
isn't to be found on this side of the briny gorge called the Atlantic,
why settle for a lager?  Get a Bass!
 
Of course, in Boston we have Harpoon Ale, made here; and in my fridge
at home, I have a couple bottles of Anchor Liberty Ale.  Yum!
-- 
*--Tom Revay---Data Resources, 24 Hartwell Ave., Lexington, MA 02173-*
|  Phone:      (617) 863-5100                                        |
|  UUCP:       {ll-xn,harvard!axiom,necntc}!drilex!tomr              |
*--Disclaimer: "But that's what plausible deniability is all about!"-*

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!sphinx!pgil
Subject: Learning the Irish Language...Watch this space
Posted: 4 Dec 87 00:04:31 GMT
Organization: U. Chicago Computation Center
 
 
OK,
I have a friend who works with An Roinn na Gaeltacht, that's
the department of the Irish Government responsible for
maintaining the Irish Language and Irish-speaking areas (The Gaeltacht)
in the country.
 
I shall be meeting my friend when I return home this Christmas ( after a
three year absence), and I shall Plumb his depths regarding
publications on learning the Irish Language; he himself has
been fluent in Irish since birth..well..give or take a few days!
 
So Watch this space folks. I'll be back Jan 3.
cheers,					paul gilna
 
 
-- 
UUCP: ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!pgil,   BITNET: [email protected] 
Analogue: (312) 702-6971                VOICE:  Hullo, um, is Paul there?      
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: Guinness
Posted: 4 Dec 87 17:00:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Tom Revay) writes:
>Hmmm ... I expect you were joking about that.  I mean, does it really
>make a difference whether your family came to America from the part of
>Ireland that became the Republic, or the part that became "Ulster
>Province" (as it's come to be called)?  I don't think it does, or
>should.
 
Actually, the province of Ulster and Northern Ireland are not at all the
same thing - Northern Ireland is in Ulster, but not vice versa.  Ulster
has a long history, going back at least 1000 years, while the border of
Northern Ireland is an artifact from the treaty between Britain and 
the Irish Free State in 1922.
 
 
 
James Moore
-------------------------	|
/ Chomh h-ard le balla	/    	|...!ucbvax!jade!thoth8!jmm
/ Chomh ban le bainne	/	|--------------------------------------------|
/ Chomh dearg le fuil	/	|   The University of California only knows  |
/ Chomh milis le mil	/	|   me as a number.  They couldn't care less |
/ Ceard e seo?		/	|   what my opinions are.                    |
-------------------------	|--------------------------------------------|
 
========================================================================
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From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  14-Dec-1987 1916" 14-DEC-1987 19:22
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 13 Dec 87 18:42:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
I don't think I could list any one group or song in particular as my 'favorite,'
but think Clannad's music is wonderful (particularly their older material),
Relativity's first album is a joy to listen to (here at least I can say that
my favorite songs on the album are 'Mo Ghile Mear' and 'An Seanduine Doite'),
and Planxty is also very good (although they no longer exist, you can still
get their albums easily).  If I absolutely had to list one group as my favorite,
it wouldn't be the Welsh group Plethyn.  Their vocals are incredible.  (They're
also a great incentive to learn Welsh, as they don't do anything in English -
or at least I haven't heard anything from them in English.)  This is barely
scratching the surface - there are many others out there that are also
fantastic.  (And note that my personal preference is for groups that put
their emphasis on singing rather than instrumentals.  But in a pinch, I'll
listen to anything |-)  )
 
James Moore
-------------------------	|
/ Chomh h-ard le balla	/    	|...!ucbvax!jade!thoth8!jmm
/ Chomh ban le bainne	/	|--------------------------------------------|
/ Chomh dearg le fuil	/	|   The University of California only knows  |
/ Chomh milis le mil	/	|   me as a number.  They couldn't care less |
/ Ceard e seo?		/	|   what my opinions are.                    |
-------------------------	|--------------------------------------------|

Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Posted: 30 Nov 87 03:28:15 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Warwick University, UK
Xref: decwrl soc.women:14196 soc.culture.celtic:502
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Laura Watson) writes:
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Michael McNeil) writes:
> >Sorry, I don't have a more direct reference to fighting Celtic women.
> If the USA had a fighting red-headed Celtic woman president like Prime 
> Minister Margaret Thatcher of England, we wouldn't be in half the trouble
> we're in now from wimpy leadership.  
> -- 
> Laura Watson             ...ihnp4!ddsw1!dino
> You can always tell luck from ability by its duration.
 
Please... take my Prime Minister...  even though I'm not at all sure
that she's Celtic (and most of my Celtic friends loathe her)... and
red headed?  Hmmm... but... I just thought... while she's at least
titularly in charge of a boring ineffective broke not-particularly
violently arrogant and imperialist (though at least a bit) nation,
she's mostly harmless...  (except to the poor, the sick, the old,
and all those other unimportant and undesirable social elements)
if she were President of the USA, G*ddess help us all...
 
				with best wishes,
						Kay	

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  15-Dec-1987 2002" 15-DEC-1987 20:11
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!philmds!prle!nvpna1!collins
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 14 Dec 87 11:36:59 GMT
Organization: Philips Research Labs, Eindhoven
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ronald George Redmond) writes:
> What is your favorite Irish Music?
 
How about Clannad, Moving Hearts, Christy Moore and Mary Coughlan for a
start
-- 
Donal O'Coileain.   ..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!collins or
                    ..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!server01!collins
"I believe in the bells of the Christchurch - Ringing out for this land
 I believe in the powers that be - But they won't overpower me" A Celebration

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!concertina!fiddler
Subject: Re: Music
Posted: 14 Dec 87 23:45:29 GMT
Organization: 
 
I like John Cunningham ("Fair Warning"),
Jackie Daly, Sean & Manus McGuire (Buttons and Bows),
and Arty McGlynn ("McGlynn's Fancy") in particular...
at least this week. :]
 
	seh

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!ptsfa!ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!tegarvin
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 14 Dec 87 17:14:12 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Ronald George Redmond) writes:
>What is your favorite Irish Music?
>Be it in English, Irish or what-have-you.
>On second thought, lets say Gaelic music.
>
>--Ronald G. Redmond
>
I would say that my favorite musical group is the Scottish group _Silly Wizard_
I also like _The Chieftains_, _Relativity_, _Touchstone_, _Boys of the Lough_,
_Clannad_ (I only have Clannad 2, what is some comparable albums of theirs?)
 
 
Ted Garvin            "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and 
[email protected]      "won't change the subject." -- Winston Churchill
Disclaimer:  These opinions belong to no one but themselves.

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  22-Dec-1987 2002" 22-DEC-1987 20:08
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!ihlpg!bermes
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 21 Dec 87 19:03:08 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Naperville, Illinois
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
> Yea, Clannad are excellent. Say, does anyone remember Horselips?
> 
> Damian.
 
 
	Yes, I think that I've got most, if not all, of their albums. I like
their early stuff better because of the traditional influences. My favorite is
"Drive the Cold Winter Away" which is a celtic Christmas album. Their move to
a more mainstream rock sound was disappointing. At the end, you would never 
have known that the were capable of some fine traditional playing.
						Terry

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!bob
Subject: Re: Maggie
Posted: 21 Dec 87 10:11:24 GMT
Organization: I.T. School, Univ. of Edinburgh, U.K.
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Scott Larnach) writes:
>Conservative statesmen amongst them.  The current example of this is
>with the current bill implementing the poll tax ("Community Charge")
>where the Government have been facing stiff opposition from many of
>their own back benchers.
>
>I saw one senior Tory on the news last night saying that the poll tax
>bill went against all the principles of freedom and equality that he
>had been working for in his <large number> years in the party.
 
To make one further point.
 
The "poll tax" has already been forced onto the scottish
people. This is in spite of complete opposition by all
political parties, local councils, trades unions, and any
other represerntative body you care to think of.
 
One poinion poll showed 87% of people opposed to the poll tax.
 
One of the most irritating things about the imposition of
the poll tax is the way in which it was done.
 
Scene: the house of commons.
 
Speaker:	All those in favour of a poll tax in Scotland?
Votes are counted.
		Carried. It will be brought into force as
		soon as possible.
 
Later:
Speaker:	All those in favour of a poll tax in England?
MP:		Now lets not be hasty...
Second MP:	Lets discuss this properly.
Third MP:	It might not be fair.
Fourth MP:	Let's set up a commitee to investigate how
		to do it properly.
Fifth MP:	... and phase it in gradually so it doesn't
		come as too much of a shock.
Tory MP:	This is outrageous, lets rebell...
Second Tory MP:	I agree, people shouldn't have to put up
		with a poll tax. It's not fair.
 
Put annother way. It's all right to force an experimental
tax on people who can't vote against it.    
 
There isn't a new George Washington over there we could
borrow for a couple of years is there?
 
No :->
 
	Bob.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!dcl-cs!bath63!cc_dgdc
Subject: Maggy
Posted: 17 Dec 87 10:56:16 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England
 
----- News saved at 17 Dec 87 10:51:53 GMT
 
Everybody hates Maggy. Didnt you Americans know? Maggy wants us all on the
dole and she is doing her best. She also wants to take our National Health
Service away. She is really hated. If it wasnt for the Falklands she
would never have won any elections. Other than the election that Airey Neave
and MI5 fixed for her.
-- 
Douglas Clark                        Voice: +44 225 826214
User Services,                       JANET: [email protected]
Bath University Computing Services,  UUCP : uunet!mcvax!ukc!bath63!cc_dgdc
Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY          ARPA : cc_dgdc%[email protected]
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Sender: 
Reply-To: [email protected] (Clark)
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of Bath, England
Keywords: 
 
 
Everybody hates Maggy. Didnt you Americans know? Maggy wants us all on the
dole and she is doing her best. She also wants to take our National Health
Service away. She is really hated. If it wasnt for the Falklands she
would never have won any elections. Other than the election that Airey Neave
and MI5 fixed for her.
-- 
Douglas Clark                        Voice: +44 225 826214
User Services,                       JANET: [email protected]
Bath University Computing Services,  UUCP : uunet!mcvax!ukc!bath63!cc_dgdc
Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY          ARPA : cc_dgdc%[email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!cheviot!kelpie!asjl
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Posted: 17 Dec 87 14:15:48 GMT
Organization: Computing Laboratory, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE17RU
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Duhh Major ) writes:
>
>     Kay,  I can't believe this.  I always thought that Britishers held
>     Maggie Thatcher in the highest esteem.  I always thought you were
>     all very proud of the work she's done.  Are you saying SHE is 
>     ineffective - or her government?  Didn't she just receive a large
>     vote of confidence in recent elections - somewhat of a mandate?
>     Tell us some facts about what Maggie Thatcher is NOT.  
>
I don't know if Kay will answer and I don't presume to speak for him but I'll
give you a few facts related to her.
 
We do not have a presidential style election where we vote for the Prime
Minister - the leader of the party with most seats in Parliament is asked by
the Queen to for a government.  In the last election her party received
around 44% of the votes cast.  The turnout was not 100% so by any reckoning
her party does not enjoy the support of the majority of the population. 
 
People in Scotland voted overwhelmingly against her party, those in Northern
Ireland do not support her policies regardless of their political/religious
persuasion and the Welsh do not support her strongly either.
 
Her support is in the affluent South of the country where standards of
living, employment and growth in the new industries like computing make her
policies attractive. In the North of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern
Ireland where the decline in heavy industries has hit hardest she is not
nearly so popular.
 
Her government is providing tax cuts to the rich at the expense of the poor,
the unemployed and the sick. We have one of the best State run Health
services in the world and this is being eroded to provide a tax cut of 1 or
2% at the next budget.
 
She is militaristic and has not joined in the spirit of the recent arms talks
between the US and USSR - the current policy seems to be to increase our
nuclear weapons in Britain by buying Trident from US.
 
Her party privatised British Telecom (our AT&T) creating a huge monopoly
which now offers a poorer service and makes huge profits.
 
She has made it an offence (or attempted to) for the BBC (our public
broadcasting stations) to discuss the workings of the secret services at all
and plans to introduce new legislation to strengthen our Official Secrets
Act. There is no concept here of a Freedom of Information Act as you have nor
much likelihood under the present administration.
 
Basically, I believe her party espouses a view of life based on greed,
secrecy and fear of losing ones job and if you would like her in America I
will happily pay for her ticket.
 
 
--
JANET: [email protected]	UUCP : [email protected]
ARPA : A.S.J.Linton%[email protected]	PHONE: +44 91 232 9233
SNAIL: Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!dcl-cs!strath-cs!paisley!csm
Subject: Maggie,Guiness,Celtic...
Posted: 18 Dec 87 16:32:18 GMT
Organization: Paisley College of Technology.
 
 
 
	The comment about Mrs Thatcher being a great person who is doing a lot
of good for this country throws up a lot of questions about the people in
soc.culture.celtic.
 Are these isles percieved as a bunch of people waving union jacks and singing
  Land of Hope and Glory ?
 How do you see the troubles in N.Ireland ? Especially with respect to 
  funding for the IRA
 Is it recognised that England is the only place that the Conservatives got
  a majority in the recent election - being nearly wiped out in Scotland ?
 
 In short how do you see the political situation in celtdom ( esp. Scotland/
Ireland ) ?
 
-----------------------------csm@cs.paisley.ac.uk-------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!csrdi
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 18 Dec 87 18:00:46 GMT
Organization: Dep't of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh
 
I just want to put in a vote for RunRig here. The best nine gigs I've ever
been to were RunRig concerts. (Most recently at the Barrowlands Ballroom,
Glasgow. Wonderful place.) They may be unheard of outside Scotland but they're
one of the biggest selling acts in the country. Our gain and your loss.
 
	--Rick
 
-- 
Janet: [email protected]
UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!its63b!csrdi
BITNET: csrdi%uk.ac.ed.its63b@UKACRL
ARPA: [email protected]
 
"Life would be so much easier if everyone read the manual."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!bob
Subject: Maggie (was: Re: Women in Battle)
Posted: 18 Dec 87 12:15:35 GMT
Organization: I.T. School, Univ. of Edinburgh, U.K.
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Duhh Major ) writes:
> .... I always thought that Britishers held
> Maggie Thatcher in the highest esteem.  I always thought you were
> all very proud of the work she's done.  Are you saying SHE is 
> ineffective - or her government?  Didn't she just receive a large
> vote of confidence in recent elections - somewhat of a mandate?
> Tell us some facts about what Maggie Thatcher is NOT.  
>
> Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>
> major
 
I suspect that this is a real request for information, so I
will avoid making one of the usual stock remarks about
Mrs Thatcher and her policies.
 
All the foreign news agencies are based in and around
London, so the news about Britain seen abroad has a VERY
south-east of England bias. (So do the "national" news
programmes, but that is a different problem.)
 
Mrs T and the rest of the Conservative party have more
than a 50% share of the votes in that area. The MPs from
that area are (with a few exceptions) all Conservative.
 
The further you get away from the SE corner of England, the
less support the Conservatives have.
 
By the time you get here (Scotland), she is VERY unpopular.
 
In Scotland at the last election, helped by Mrs T's
behaviour towards Scotland and the scots, the Conservative
party lost large numbers of votes.
 
Scotland sends 70 MPs to London. After the election there
were 10 Conservativbe MPs left. The Labour party gained most
and now sends 50 Scottish MPs to London
 
In Scotland, the Labour party has 57% of the Vote. The
Conservatives have something like 23%, just ahead of the
scottish nationalists on 20%. 
 
There are so few Scottish Conservative MPs left, that the
Scottish Office, the goverment dept. which runs Scotland,
has had to import some English MPs to help run things.
 
This has lead to accusations of the Conservatives running a
Colonial dictatorship.
 
Thanks to the inability of the Labour MPs to do anything,
there is a growing call for more local control over
Scotland, up to and including Complete independance.
 
The SNP (Scottish Nationalists), whose main policy is
independance, often do better than the Conservatives.
 
Not exactly the image of Thatcher's Britain you see on your
news and current affairs programmes.
 
Does any of this stuff ever get mentioned when talking about
the politics of Britain?
 
Or is the only stories about Scotland of Haggis, Kilts,
whisky and the hunt for the Loch ness monster?
	Bob.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!scott
Subject: Re: Maggie
Posted: 18 Dec 87 17:02:59 GMT
Organization: Unix Support, Edinburgh University Computing Service
 
In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Duhh Major ) writes:
+--
| I always thought that Britishers held
| Maggie Thatcher in the highest esteem.  I always thought you were
| all very proud of the work she's done.  Are you saying SHE is 
| ineffective - or her government?  Didn't she just receive a large
| vote of confidence in recent elections - somewhat of a mandate?
+--
 
Others have pointed out the true nature of Maggie's popularity in
Britain, so I shall just make a couple of points in answer to the
question from the article quoted above:
 
+--
| Tell us some facts about what Maggie Thatcher is NOT.  
+--
 
Maggie is NOT representative of British opinion. In the last election
she was elected (as British Prime Ministers tend to be) on a minority
of the votes cast. This is due to our iniquitous and undemocratic
electoral system (which she supports). If we had some form of PR we
might at least end up with the P.M. who is least hated. But not as
things stand.
 
Maggie is NOT representative of all the opinion in her own party.
There is a significant strand of Conservative opinion which is at odds
with Thatcherism, and which daily grows more disenchanted with the way
Maggie is leading them. This faction can count some very senior
Conservative statesmen amongst them.  The current example of this is
with the current bill implementing the poll tax ("Community Charge")
where the Government have been facing stiff opposition from many of
their own back benchers.
 
I saw one senior Tory on the news last night saying that the poll tax
bill went against all the principles of freedom and equality that he
had been working for in his <large number> years in the party.
 
--Scott.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!daemon
Subject: Clannad discography, anyone?
Posted: 22 Dec 87 15:51:23 GMT
Organization: 
 
 
 
Recently there've been a lot of postings on soc.culture.celtic
anent the folk-->rock-->newage group Clannad, admiring some albums and
lamenting the band's current direction.  I bought "Clannad 2" a year
ago and liked it quite a bit, so I picked up "Legend" last week and
thought it truly awful.  Apologies to any rabid Legend fans, needless to
say...  I think it would be useful if we could assemble a Clannad
discography, so that those of us who like different aspects of the
band's sound would know which albums to persue/avoid.  Hard to do of
course since it's so subjective;  but would any serious Clannad
collectors out there be willing to try?
 
--Tom Olson ([email protected]) (rochester!olson)
 
PS in the interests of minimizing traffic, I'd suggest rec.music.folk
as the best venue for this effort.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!jack
Subject: Scotland and Ulster (was Re: Maggie)
Posted: 22 Dec 87 12:53:12 GMT
Organization: AMOEBA project, CWI, Amsterdam
 
Hmm, the article about how the Scots are fed up with Mrs T. and rising
nationalism there made me think of an interesting solution to the
northern Irish problem: how about merging Scotland and Northern Ireland
into a new, independent nation?
This might just be acceptable to both the Catholic and the Protestant
people of Northern Ireland......
 
(Of course, I'll just ignore what the Scottish people think for the moment...)
-- 
	Jack Jansen, [email protected] (or [email protected])
	The shell is my oyster.

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  22-Dec-1987 2010" 22-DEC-1987 20:15
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.roots newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.roots
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!steinmetz!kane
Subject: tracing family history to Ireland
Posted: 22 Dec 87 02:19:17 GMT
Organization: General Electric CRD, Schenectady, NY
 
 
 Help ! I am trying to trace my family history and have gone back as
 
far as 1838 where my great grandfather sailed from Queenstown, Ireland
 
and landed in the Port of New York. The only other information that I
 
have is that my great grandfather was born in County Tipperary in 1818.
 
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I might proceed from here ?
 
Is there an organization which would do a "search" for me for a reasonable
 
fee ? 
 
  My biggest problem is where to write to in Ireland (what agency) and what 
 
to ask for (type of documents).
 
					thanks         
                                       Joe Kane
            
*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x
        Joseph Kane    *  ARPA:	     [email protected]
	(518)387-6748  *  UUCP:      {uunet,philabs,rochester}!steinmetz!kane
		       *  GE DECnet: kbsvax::kane

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  24-Dec-1987 1939" 24-DEC-1987 19:43
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!oliveb!sun!plaid!lsefton
Subject: Re: Maggie,Guiness,Celtic...
Posted: 23 Dec 87 18:56:27 GMT
Organization: 
 
 
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (|-|ugh) writes:
> It seems to me that
>the typical uninformed American believes that the Catholics are a small
>minority, and that in any case the whole Northern Ireland business is just two
>groups of wild Irishmen who hate each other because they have different
>religions, while noble, selfless Mother England struggles to keep the peace.
>
>I think the US media have incredibly low standards when it comes to reporting
>on Ireland (and no doubt if I was from some other country, I would notice
>gaping holes in their knowledge of whatever country it was). They are far too
>willing to swallow blindly whatever the British Govt. propaganda (oops,
>information) office feeds them, and mindlessly regurgitate it to the masses in
>this country.
>
>Re Noraid: the problem is that Irish-Americans tend to believe that time stood
>still in the Ould Sod from the moment their grandfather set foot on the boat.
>They have this dewey-eyed picture of the IRA as brave lads honoring the duty
>of every Irishman to lay down his life for Ireland at least once. Maybe the
>Irish and British governments should run a joint publicity campain pointing
>out that the Provos are a bloodthirsty bunch of would-be Che Guevaras intent
>on overthrowing the Irish Republic as well as Northern Ireland.
>
A few notes from someone who has gotten to see the story from both sides, in
the comfort of her own living room...
 
My father, who  was born in Scotland, married my mother, whose family
traces back *very* english roots from Sussex (along with waspy roots from
Amherst MA, but we won't go into that here). World Wars tend to make strange
bedfellows (can you say "war bride?"), and this was definitely one. My
mother's family came from minor english nobility (by the time my grandfather
came along, it was knighthood for him). My father's family came from
straight celtic stock, and were committed nationalists to boot. My paternal
grandmother...
 
Well, her name was Margaret Mary Duffy, and she came from Dublin. Her
catechism books were inscribed with "Free Ireland!" She was part of the
*original* IRA, not the current band of brainless killers. (BTW, want to
stop all talk at a party? Just say, "yes, my gran was in the IRA", and watch
all the locals blanch...) Both she and my grandfather (a Scot) did their
part...
 
Which brings me to my sitution-- I have grown up hearing both sides of
the "Irish Question". My mother has done her best to tell me what scum all
celtic types are (they *all* lie, you know, and they live like pigs), and
that I ought to hide 1/2 my heritage (hard to do--I'm a ringer for gran).
 
My grandmother, however, dragged me the other way--to the point that I'm
the only grandchild who was baptized (*gasp*) Catholic (after which I
was baptized Anglican). I was left with my grandmother a lot during my
childhood, and was filled with *lovely* tales of what the English did to the
Scots and Irish (like--"do you know *why* there isn't a Scottish royal
house? That's because the English came in one night an murdered them all!")
All right, it wasn't very factual, but it sure makes for tiny little
revolutionaries.
 
All this made me a strange beastie--an american (US) born who *knows*
something about the animosity between England and the rest of the 
(heh-heh) "captive states." I've spent a lot of time explaining to people
that someone from Scotland is *not* English. This was driven home to my
husband when we went to England for the World Science Fiction convention and
all the Scots there *very* emphatically told people that they were *not*
English, and that Thatcher may be  the "english Prime Minister", but
*they* certainly didn't elect her...
 
BTW, big in the news at that time was that Thatcher was up in Scotland,
trying to drum up support for the Conservatives. Didn't work...
 
Back to what I was getting to: I think the american public thinks of
Northern Ireland whatever the american press manages to tell them in the 30
seconds they have that evening. Look at the way the press handles the USSR!
Most people don't want to take the time or the trouble to look any further.
Their views are also colored by what I call "the irish rovers disease."
Everyone is either a crazed revolutionary killer or a cute snub-nosed
redhead who sings about "Dr William's Motor Car ."
 
Hope this doesn't start any flames--I've seen enough of those at home :-)
 
Laurie Sefton
lsefton%[email protected] {decwrl,ihnp4,seismo,hplabs}sun!morrigu!lsefton
I have a kill file for the same reason I have two pipe lines: I prefer to
keep the sewage *out* of the drinking water
Disclaimer:  My opinions, not Sun Microsystems

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!ihlpf!arjay
Subject: What's it like in the Isles?
Posted: 23 Dec 87 20:02:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Naperville, Illinois
 
 
I am interested in learning about lifestyles in (primarily) Scotland and
Ireland from a 'computer person's' point of view. Would any of you living
over there care to help me out?
 
I visited Ireland (southern) for a month when I was 11 years old (many moons
ago) and again three years ago for only two weeks. I have not yet made it to
Scotland. I like what I have seen, but I haven't the funds for an extended
vacation and would like more information before I seriously entertain the
idea of moving.
 
I am a published author, and my agent tells me if I can fulfill my side of
the book contracts I have over the next three years, I should be able to 
support myself without a (shudder) conventional job.
 
So tell me about the countryside, the pubs, celtic history from your point
of view, and those things unique to the area, politics, and differences
in culture I may not have come across in my (short) visits. 
 
At this point, all but abusive mail is appreciated!
 
-- 
                        ArJay <I did NOT eat a watermelon seed!> Kimmel
                               ihnp4!ihlpf!arjay  at AT&T in Naperville
                                                          (312)979-6715

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!cunyvm.bitnet!yzkcu
Subject: Re: MUSIC
Posted: 23 Dec 87 16:59:44 GMT
Organization: The City University of New York - New York, NY
DISCLAIMER: Author bears full responsibility for contents of this article
 
How about "Is Er Eirinn Ne Eneos Fainn Ce Hi" ("For Ireland I'll Not Tell
Her Name") in Irish Gaelic, by one of the Clancy Brothers (I believe
Liam or Paddy) ?
     
(don't flame me on the spelling if I blew it! I'm not a Celt, just
an Irish music fan - since about 1962, and a "cousin of Briscoe")
     
YK
-------
Yaakov Kayman      (212) 903-3666       City University of New York
     
BITNET:   YZKCU@CUNYVM        "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky the flock
Internet: [email protected]      about whom the wolves complain."
     

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!husc6!umix!umich!dwt
Subject: U.S. views of Northern Ireland (was Re: Maggie,Guiness,Celtic...)
Posted: 23 Dec 87 19:48:51 GMT
Organization: Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann,. Ann Arbor
UUCP-Path: ihnp4!umich!zippy!dwt
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (|-|ugh) writes:
>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Kevin Burnett) writes:
>}The primary reason for this, in my opinion at least, is
>}that the Irish-American population is about 90% Catholic, 
 
I have no relevant hard demographic data, at hand  but it seems to me that the 
apparent inconsistency of un-thought-out US views on Northern Ireland and on 
Israel are most readily explicable on the hypothesis that Catholic Irish-
Americans considerably outnumber Protestant Irish-Americans, but that Jewish-
Americans considerably outnumber Arab-Americans.  
 
>the typical uninformed American believes that [...] the whole Northern 
>Ireland business is just two groups of wild Irishmen who hate each other 
>because they have different religions
 
I spend a lot of time having to explain to Americans that the issue in Ireland 
is not religion but group affiliation, for which religion is a very reliable
marker.
 
>I think the US media have incredibly low standards when it comes to reporting
>on Ireland 
 
I think they correctly realize that the public's attention span is insufficient
for a deeper treatment. Before I lived in Ireland, I thought I understood the
situation there quite well. It took me about a year of living there to 
understand how little I really knew.
 
>Re Noraid: the problem is that Irish-Americans [...] have this dewey-eyed 
>picture of the IRA [...]
>Maybe the Irish and British governments should run a joint publicity campain 
>pointing out that the Provos are a bloodthirsty bunch of would-be Che 
>Guevaras intent on overthrowing the Irish Republic as well as Northern Ireland.
 
 While living in Ireland, I heard the story of Garret FitzGerald's trip to
 the US to do precisely that on TV.  He was Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of the 
 Irish Republic at the time.  For balance, the show's producers put him
 on with Ruari O Bradaigh, then Chief of Staff of the Provisional IRA.  The
 reaction of the Irish-American public was reportedly along the lines of "who's
 your man up there with Ruari?"
 
>brave lads honoring the duty of every Irishman to lay down his life for 
>Ireland at least once. 
 
Also while I was living there, there was some kind of ceremonial dinner for
de Valera (President at the time, and famous as a member of the Old IRA of
1916-21).  I heard that someone making a speech on that occasion got carried
away, and in an excess of enthusiasm described the guest of honour as "the
man who fought and died for Ireland".
 
 One of my Irish friends characterised the problem as "too many people are
 prepared to die for Ireland, instead of living for it".
 
Is mise le meas,
Daithi                             ;-)
 
(David West   [email protected])
 
========================================================================
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!tegarvin
Subject: Re: Scotland and Ulster (was Re: Maggie)
Posted: 23 Dec 87 18:54:22 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Jack Jansen) writes:
>Hmm, the article about how the Scots are fed up with Mrs T. and rising
>nationalism there made me think of an interesting solution to the
>northern Irish problem: how about merging Scotland and Northern Ireland
>into a new, independent nation?
 
 
But what would you call it?  A catchy name always helps when proposing
new ideas of this sort.  I suppose one could opt for historical/nostalgic
ambience:  Galloway?  Strathclyde?  Ulster?  Alban?
 
>(Of course, I'll just ignore what the Scottish people think for the moment...)
 
(Never a wise decision...)
    
>	Jack Jansen, [email protected] (or [email protected])
>	The shell is my oyster.
 
 
Ted Garvin     "Of all my relations, I like sex the best and Eric the least."
[email protected]                        -- Random of Amber
Disclaimer:  These opinions belong to no one but themselves.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!oddjob!gargoyle!ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!tegarvin
Subject: Re: Maggie,Guiness,Celtic...
Posted: 24 Dec 87 03:17:38 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (|-|ugh) writes:
  
>It seems to me that
>the typical uninformed American believes that the Catholics are a small
>minority, and that in any case the whole Northern Ireland business is just two
>groups of wild Irishmen who hate each other because they have different
>religions, while noble, selfless Mother England struggles to keep the peace.
 
Hasn't there been some sort of animosity between Ulster and the rest of
Ireland since at least the time of James II (Glorious Revolution, William
and Mary, etc)?  My history may be a bit remiss, but I think that's when
native land-holders in the Ulster area were displaced to make room for
immigrants from Scotland (hence: Scots-Irish).  
For that matter, the feuding may go farther back than that, (Cooley Cattle
Raid, etc).  Or am I mixing apples and oranges here?
 
>Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
>Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
>Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
>Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }
 
Ted Garvin             "Courage is found in unlikely places.
[email protected]               Be of good hope!"
                                          -- Gildor Inglorion
Disclaimer:  These opinions belong to no one but themselves.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.women
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!jade!ig!uwmcsd1!leah!itsgw!batcomputer!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!shuksan!major
Subject: Maggie Thatcher (was Women in Battle)
Posted: 23 Dec 87 18:00:27 GMT
Organization: Boeing Mountain Network, Seattle WA
Xref: decwrl soc.culture.celtic:539 soc.women:14469
 
 
   I received a very interesting reply from Matthew Huntback, Dept.
   of Computing, Imperial College, London, U.K.  He e-mailed this
   posting to me, said he was having trouble getting it on the net
   and ask that I "spread the message to whoever you can."
 
   Quote:
 
   "In the 1987 General Election, Conservative Party candidates received a 
   total of about 42% of the vote, the Labour Party got about 35% and the
   Liberal/SDP Alliance about 23%.  57% against you is hardly a large vote
   of confidence.  The Conservatives received a majority of seats only 
   because of our unfair voting system (the USA uses something similar,
   but the effects are worse when there are three major parties).
 
   Health services, education and research are all suffering from cutbacks 
   in expenditure - e.g. note the declining number of British research papers
   being published.  Everything is being sacrificed for short term gain.
 
   Maggie Thatcher survives because
 
   i) She has been in power at the same time as Britain has had the North
      Sea oil.  If it were not for this, we would by now be reduced to 
      third world status.  Despite the huge volme of the oil we've been
      receiving (and which is likely to run out fairly soon) our balance
      of payments is only just breaking even.
 
  ii) The Press are about 50% sycophantic Conservative, printing the most
      biased pro-Conservative stuff imaginable, 30% 'Independent' but mainly
      pro-Conservative, and 20% genuinely independent but not keen on any
      of the opposition parties except the SDP part of the Liberal/SDP
      Alliance which is very similar in outlook to the Conservatives
 
 iii) Tax cuts have been made through a once-and-for-all sale of government
      assets.  Once these are sold off there'll be no more and the 
      government will have a serious shortage of cash.
 
  iv) All alternative centres of power are being crushed.  Local government
      has been virtually stripped of all its powers.  Rights of Trade
      Unions to organise have been severely curtailed, and besides
      unemployment is so high that everyone's too afraid of losing their
      jobs to do anything.
 
   v) There is no state funding of political parties so whereas the 
      Conservatives receive heavy funding from business, the others receive
      almost nothing (Labour gets something from the Trade Unions).  So the
      campaigns of the other parties at elections are pathetically amateur
      compared with what the Conservatives can buy.
 
   The state of London is disgusting.  There are beggars in the streets and
   people sleeping rough outside at all times.  Crime, drugs and 
   prostitutions are common as they're the only way of making money for 
   many.  Housing costs have been forced up to levels unaffordable for all
   but the rich.  I can only afford to live in London because I live in 
   a low-rent local government owned flat, (you can also see this as a 
   reflection of the low salaries that those of us working in fundamental
   computer research are receiving) but Maggie Thatcher's removing rent
   protection on these as well, and forcing the councils to sell them off
   to private business.
 
   Sorry to take up soc.celtics (and soc.women) time but this is the truth,
   and I suppose the U.S.A's press is about as biased as ours if Americans
   are puzzled to hear opposition to Maggie Thatcher publicly expressed.
   Please spread this message to whoever you can,
 
   Matthew Huntbach, Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, London, U.K.
    - These views are mine, but probably 80% of the academics here would
    agree with them.  At least those of us with some intelligence can
    see the damage that woman's doing to our country."
 
   End quote.
 
    <return path doc.imperial.ac.uk!mmh> (I hope this path is correct) 
    
 
        Well, thank you Matthew.  I guess I was uninformed, huh?  I hope
        that those of us interested in this now have a better perspective
        on how things are going, in Jolly Olde England.
 
        From the Colonies,
 
        major
        ssc-vax!shuksan!major
 
 
 

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  25-Dec-1987 1855" 25-DEC-1987 18:59
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!sunybcs!boulder!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: An Seanduine Doite
Posted: 25 Dec 87 00:30:39 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Jan Marquardt) writes:
}they have a  song called 'An Seanduine Doite'.   I am desperately looking
}for the words  to  this song, in written form.
 
I tried mailing, but it kept bouncing. Here are the words (or at least one
version thereof):
 
[ Note: ` before a vowel denotes a fada (diacretic mark) ]
 
        An Seanduine Do`ite
 
Chuir me` mo sheanduine isteach ins an choirne`al
a dhi`ol bhainne ramhair is a dh'ithe ara`in eornan,
da` gcuirfeadh se` a cheann amach bhainfinn an tsro`n de
agus d'fhui`gfinn an chuid eile ag na caili`ni` o`ga.
 
Curfa`: O`ro`, 'sheanduine, 'sheanduine do`ite,
        is o`ro`, 'sheanduine is mairg a pho`s thu`,
        o`ro` 'shenaduine, 'sheanduine do`ite,
        luigh ar do leaba is codail do dho`thain.
 
Chuir me` mo sheanduine go Sra`idbhaile an Ro`ba
cleite ina hata agus bu`clai` ar a bhro`ga, 
bhi` tri`ur a` mhealladh is ceathrar a` pho`gadh;
chuala me` i nGaillimh gur imigh se` leotha.
 
Curfa`
 
Da` mbi`odh a fhios ag an tseanduine o`, mar a bhi`mse
ag o`l is ag imirt le h-o`gfhir na ti`re
le he`iri` na gealai` go mbrisfeadh se` a phi`opa
agus bhuailfeadh se` faic dena bhuig ins an ghri`osaigh.
 
Curfa`
 
Da` bhfaigheadh mo sheanduine gach ni` mar ba cho`ir do`,
greamanna ime agus greamanna feola,
i`ochtar na cuinneoige is pra`tai` ro`sta
bhainfeadh se` gliogar as caili`ni` o`ga.
 
Curfa`
 
Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!husc6!bbn!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx!rengland
Subject: Re: Maggie (was: Re: Women in Battle)
Posted: 24 Dec 87 18:25:22 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corporation, Beaverton Oregon
 
in article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (ERCF08 Bob Gray) says:
[much good info on UK Politics omitted]
> 
> The SNP (Scottish Nationalists), whose main policy is
> independance, often do better than the Conservatives.
> 
> Not exactly the image of Thatcher's Britain you see on your
> news and current affairs programmes.
> 
> Does any of this stuff ever get mentioned when talking about
> the politics of Britain?
> 
> Or is the only stories about Scotland of Haggis, Kilts,
> whisky and the hunt for the Loch ness monster?
> 	Bob.
 
I'm afraid your last paragraph summed it up and most people over here
don't know what haggis is! (with the possible exception of those that
read this group :-))  BTW you left out bagpipes.  "Every one in
Scotland plays bagpipes!"  (I can say that, you see, *I* play them)
 
I was intrigued that the SNP has only 20%.  I would have expected more.
The people I met about 5 years ago thought they had less.  Is this number 
up or down since Maggie entered office.  Does independence rest well with 
the majority of Scots?  What are the chances for it?
 
Rich England
[email protected]
-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Rich England                  | "...Cock o' the North?  Ach! Yon's a cheesey
 [email protected]    |tune.  Weel no be playin' thaat tune!"
 ...!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx  |     Alec Guiness, "Tunes of Glory"

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!hao!husc6!bbn!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx!rengland
Subject: Re: Maggie,Guiness,Celtic...
Posted: 24 Dec 87 18:36:57 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corporation, Beaverton Oregon
 
in article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (|-|ugh) says:
> 
> }-----------------------------csm@cs.paisley.ac.uk-----------------------------
>                                      ^^^^^^^
> So he has his own college of technology now! I guess a Ph.D. from Bob Jones
> Diploma Mill wasn't enough for him ;-)
> 
> Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
> Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
> Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
> Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }
 
Hugh must be an Irishman :-)   Paisley is a town near Glasgow.  Ian's family probably 
took their name from it after returning to Ireland from Glasgow :-)
 
Now come on folks,...no flames...!
 
Rich England
[email protected]
 
-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Rich England                  | "...Cock o' the North?  Ach! Yon's a cheesey
 [email protected]    |tune.  Weel no be playin' thaat tune!"
 ...!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx  |     Alec Guiness, "Tunes of Glory"

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  26-Dec-1987 1850" 26-DEC-1987 18:53
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!clyde!watmath!utgpu!utzoo!mnetor!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!csrdi
Subject: Re: Maggie
Posted: 22 Dec 87 20:51:24 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci., University of Edinburgh, Scotland.
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>
>The "poll tax" has already been forced onto the scottish
>people. This is in spite of complete opposition by all
>political parties, local councils, trades unions, and any
>other represerntative body you care to think of.
>
>There isn't a new George Washington over there we could
>borrow for a couple of years is there?
>
 
Yeah - what was that thing you people had about "No taxation without
representation" back in 1776?
 
	--Rick.
-- 
Janet: [email protected]
BITNET: csrdi%uk.ac.ed.its63b@UKACRL
ARPA: [email protected]
UUCP: not recommended - we pay real money for it!
 
"Life would be so much easier if everyone read the manual."

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  27-Dec-1987 1845" 27-DEC-1987 18:47
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!saturn!ssyx!web
Subject: Re: Women in Battle
Posted: 27 Dec 87 07:01:12 GMT
Organization: UC Santa Cruz; Division of Social Sciences
Xref: decwrl soc.women:14500 soc.culture.celtic:544
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Joe Thornton) writes:
>
>Yes indeed, Kay.
>Of course Thatcher isn't Celtic.  Her remarkable callousness even
>casts doubt on her humanity.
>
 
At least one Britain agrees with you:
 
Has it ever crossed your mind to ask yourself why Mrs. T talks funny
Have you never paused to wonder why the lasy's so obsessed with saving cash?
Why she hates the working classes more with every day that passes,
Will she one day up and vanish in a flash?
 
If you have then I would ask you to forgive her,
She's only lately come to us from outer space,
She's a poor deprived commuter who was built by a computer
She's an android, a stranger to the human race.	 
 
 
                            Ewan MacColl
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
		[email protected]
   Wendy	[email protected]		We're all in this together...
		...!ucbvax!ssyx!web	

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  29-Dec-1987 1908" 29-DEC-1987 19:12
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!ll-xn!husc6!bbn!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!teknowledge-vaxc!aterry
Subject: Guinness is good for you
Posted: 28 Dec 87 20:27:17 GMT
Organization: Teknowledge, Inc., Palo Alto CA
 
Some weeks ago there was a lot of discussion about Guinness and how it is good
for you.  I just came across something written in the 30s that might be
amusing in this context (especially with the advertising style of 50 years
ago):
 "Described rightly as 'Food and Drink', Guinness' Stout contains more actual
nourishment than any other similar product, and is freely prescribed by
doctors all over the world for people who are rundown and for those suffering
from anaemia, sleeplessness and frayed nerves, who need building up.  For
generations it has been considered the greatest aid to expectant and nursing
mothers.  As a general natural tonic and for those who lack appetite,
Guinness' taken before or with meals is wonderfully effective and easily
digested" 
  I wonder if all the medicinal schtick was current ad language or a response
to recent prohibition feelings.
							Allan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: Re: Guinness is good for you
Posted: 29 Dec 87 06:56:34 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Uninterned Symbol) writes:
[quotes from '30s ad attributing medicinal properties to Guinness]
 
Up to the '50s in Ireland (and possibly even today) doctors often prescribed
Guinness to pregnant women. I've heard that Guinness is very popular with the
Chinese throughout S.E. Asia as a medicine.
 
When I was a grad student at MIT, I knew some Nigerian students who drank
prodigious amounts of Guinness. They told me they liked it because it was black!
 
Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  06-Jan-1988 1943"  6-JAN-1988 19:49
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!teknowledge-vaxc!aterry
Subject: dialects
Posted: 5 Jan 88 17:40:07 GMT
Organization: Teknowledge, Inc., Palo Alto CA
 
 
I am curious about how close the various celtic languages are to each other.
Can a native Irish speaker understand, perhaps with some effort, a native
Scots speaker?  Or Welch or Breton?  I have seen allusions to local dialect in
this group, can two speakers of Irish clearly understand each other if they
come from different regions?  (Rather like the situation in Middle English and
earlier) I would expect the situation to be like the slavic languages: the
grammar is basically the same, but the vocabulary and phonetics have diverged
over time.  Does any group standardize Gaelic the way the French and Spanish
try to standardize their languages?
						thanks, Allan
 
 
 
 
They say history repeats itself.  But then, that has been said before.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!mcnc!gatech!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 6 Jan 88 02:19:45 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Uninterned Symbol) writes:
}
}I am curious about how close the various celtic languages are to each other.
 
I'm not a linguist, so you can take the following with the appropriate
quantity of salt. The celtic languages are divided into two branches, the p-
branch and the q-branch. Welsh, Breton and Cornish are in the former group,
and Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx are in the latter. The difference between
them can be illustrated by an example; the Irish word for head is "ceann",
while in Welsh it's something like "penn". (Perhaps something similar happened
wrt. Rumanian versus the other romance languages, as the Rumanian word for four
is "patru" instead of "quatre", "cuatro" etc.)
 
Irish speakers from different parts of Ireland can have a hard time
understanding each other. (And an even harder time understanding Scots Gaelic,
to say nothing of Welsh.) The language never had a chance to get standardized
before the encroachment of English proved (almost) fatal. When Irish was still
a viable language there were three major dialects, Munster, Connacht and
Ulster, corresponding to three of the four provinces. Today, Irish is only
spoken as an everyday language in isolated pockets along the west coast. (No,
I mean the west coast of Ireland. I know they talk funny in California, but...)
 
Following Irish independence the government tried to create a standard Irish.
They simplified the spelling, borrowed a lot of English words, and taught the
standard Irish (based largely on the Munster dialect) in the schools. I don't
think the standard Irish made much impression in the Irish-speaking areas. As
far as I know, the government isn't still pushing standard Irish. Recently
I've noticed more regional variation among people speaking Irish (newsreaders,
etc.) on RTE, the state-sponsored television.
 
Hope this answers some of your questions.
 
Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 6 Jan 88 08:54:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
The fluent speakers of Irish that I've spoken with say that they can
generally understand Scottish Gaelic, but there are substantial
differences (enough so that Irish and Scottish Gaelic are considered
different languages, not different dialects of one language.  Dialect
differences in Irish are strong but the dialects are mutually
comprehensible.  For just one example, the first person plural pronoun is 'muid'
in the north and the west, but 'sinn' (as in the political party Sinn Fein)
in the south (and 'fein' is pronounced with an 'h' rather than an 'f'
in the west).  There are lots of others.
 
There is no way a speaker of Irish can understand Welsh (or vice
versa) merely from their knowledge of one of the two.  Irish/Gaelic
and Welsh/Breton are closer than English and German, but nowhere near
as similar as, say, French and Spanish.  As for Welsh speakers
understnading Breton, I don't know, but from what I've seen of written
Breton and the little Welsh I know, they are farther apart than Irish
and Gaelic.
 
 
James Moore
-------------------------	|
/ Go raibh sonas agus	/    	|  [email protected]
/ rath oraibh an	/	|--------------------------------------------|
/ Nollaig agus san	/	|   The University of California only knows  |
/ Athbhliain!		/	|   me as a number.  They couldn't care less |
/ 			/	|   what my opinions are.                    |
-------------------------	|--------------------------------------------|
 
========================================================================
Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.4/4.7.34)
	id AA09391; Wed, 6 Jan 88 03:13:42 PST

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  07-Jan-1988 1953"  7-JAN-1988 20:05
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!ll-xn!kathy
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 6 Jan 88 23:33:15 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (|-|ugh) writes:
> Following Irish independence the government tried to create a standard Irish.
> They simplified the spelling, borrowed a lot of English words, and taught the
> standard Irish (based largely on the Munster dialect) in the schools. I don't
> think the standard Irish made much impression in the Irish-speaking areas. As
> far as I know, the government isn't still pushing standard Irish. Recently
> I've noticed more regional variation among people speaking Irish (newsreaders,
> etc.) on RTE, the state-sponsored television.
 
	As far as the question of whether the Irish government is till pushing
standard Irish, Katherine Kurtz (a science fiction/fantasy writer who moved ot
Ireland last year) mentioned in passing at a convention this fall that proficiency
in Irish is a requirement for being a member of the armed forces, the Gardai, or
the civil service there.  That suggests to me that there is still considerable
support for the language on the part of the government.  
 
 
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathryn L. Smith	    UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy	       I didn't do it, 
MIT Lincoln Laboratories    ARPANET: [email protected]       and I can justify
Lexington, MA						        it all anyway.
 
========================================================================
Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.4/4.7.34)
	id AA09801; Wed, 6 Jan 88 19:13:32 PST

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!uwvax!oddjob!hao!noao!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 7 Jan 88 05:09:12 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math., Univ. of Arizona at Tucson
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Kathryn Smith) writes:
}
}proficiency
}in Irish is a requirement for being a member of the armed forces, the Gardai, or
}the civil service there.  That suggests to me that there is still considerable
}support for the language on the part of the government.  
}
The program to standardize Irish has run out of steam, but the government is
certainly still pushing knowledge of the language. I once knew an Englishman
who lived in Ireland and had applied for a job as a bus driver, but was turned
down. CIE (the national public transport monopoly) told him that anyone whose
job involves dealing with the public has to be able to speak Irish. He seemed
to accept this as reasonable, though at the time I thought it was silly. On
further thought it occurred to me that CIE was afraid some rabid gaeilgeor
might kick up a stink, refuse to pay his fare, etc. because the unfortunate
driver didn't speak Irish. This is not as far-fetched as it might seem. There
have been cases where people refused to pay their television licences because
they felt there wasn't enough Irish-language programming on RTE.
 
Hugh Dunne         |     ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math.     |    Phone:             |         {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona   |    +1 602 621 4766    |  hdunne@{    arizrvax.bitnet    }
Tucson AZ  85721   |    +1 602 621 6893    |         { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!husc6!linus!philabs!dml
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 6 Jan 88 17:40:18 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Uninterned Symbol) writes:
> 
> I am curious about how close the various celtic languages are to each other.
> Can a native Irish speaker understand, perhaps with some effort, a native
> Scots speaker?  Or Welch or Breton?  
 
From my own experience as an Irish speaker, I find Scottish Gaeilic
easy to read but very difficult to understand when spoken. I don't
think I could speak grammatically correct Scottish. I can't understand
Welch or Breton; I believe these come from a different branch of
the Celtic family (P-celts versus Q-celts?).  How about speakers of
Scottish, Breton and Welsh, can they make any sense of each other? and
Irish? 
 
> ...................              I have seen allusions to local dialect in
> this group, can two speakers of Irish clearly understand each other if they
> come from different regions?  
 
I remember reading that these dialects are of relatively recent
origin, and are due to the isolation of Irish speaking enclaves from
each other by tracts of English speakers. I learned Irish in school,
neither of my parents speak Irish very well due to the state of Irish
education under England. I believe that Connaught dialect is the
official version, but my teachers, at least, tried to ensure that
a mix of dialects (I believe that there is one `recognized' dialect per
province) was thought. The main difference seems to be in vocab and
accent. 
 
> over time.  Does any group standardize Gaelic the way the French and Spanish
> try to standardize their languages?
 
I believe that there has been at least one standardization of Irish.
Spelling was simplified by omitting many `silent' letters (eg ceilidh
becoming ceili) and the change was made from the Gaeilic notation to
roman notation. I believe this last step was a mistake, anybody know
why they did it the way they did? (eg why not have two accents instead
of making seimhiu a letter).
 
Damian.

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  08-Jan-1988 1947"  8-JAN-1988 19:55
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!stl!normanh
Subject: Irish Stout
Posted: 6 Jan 88 15:36:30 GMT
Organization: 
 
I was back in Aberdeen (Scotland!) for the festive season
and found that several public houses were selling draught
Murphy's (stout). Once I had convinced myself that there
was decent Scotish beer on sale, I tried the Murphy's and
found that it was very pleasant.
 
--
Regards,
  Norman Hilton, STC Technology Ltd., London Rd., Harlow, England
  e-mail: [email protected]  or  ...!mcvax!ukc!stl!normanh
  phone:  +44-279-29531 x3657
-- 
Regards,
  Norman Hilton, STC Technology Ltd., London Rd., Harlow, England
  e-mail: [email protected]  or  ...!mcvax!ukc!stl!normanh
  phone:  +44-279-29531 x3657

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ig!uwmcsd1!bbn!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 7 Jan 88 16:59:34 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle
 
I agree with Hugh Dunne's comments on Celtic mutual intelligibility.  It
is worth noting that the terms 'dialect' and 'language' are often
obscured in usage.  One expects different dialects of a language to be
mutually intelligible, but not different languages.  There are four
major dialects of Breton: Kernev (kerneveg), Leon (leoneg), Tregor
(tregerieg), and Gwened (Vannetais, gwenedeg).  Gwened is markedly
different from the other three, which are often referred to as KLT.
Although KLT is the standard literary dialect for Breton, it is really
based on leoneg.  The fact is that real native speakers of Breton (as
opposed to native French speakers schooled in KLT) do not find the
dialects mutually intelligible.  In fact, many speakers have trouble 
understanding the KLT spoken on radio and TV. They have various pejorative
labels for KLT.  My favorites are Roazhoneg (Breton native to Rennes, a
city of French-speaking Upper Brittany) and Parizhoneg (Breton native
to Paris).  Technically speaking, the dialects of Breton are separate
languages.
 
 
-- 
 
===========
Rick Wojcik   [email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 8 Jan 88 16:07:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
>...and the change was made from the Gaeilic notation to
>roman notation. I believe this last step was a mistake, anybody know
>why they did it the way they did? (eg why not have two accents instead
>of making seimhiu a letter).
>
>Damian.
 
I suspect the change was made primarily so that printers wouldn't have
to keep two different sets of type for Irish and English.  The older
alphabet is not all that different from the standard European Roman
one, so learning it is not very difficult.  I think the choice of accent
marks was made for the same reason - printers probably weren't set up
to put dots over most of the consonants.  (Side note:  the dot is an
old scribal shorthand for telling people to ignore the letter it was
over.  In Latin it's called a 'punctum delins (or some such spelling)
and was used because erasing was very difficult.  At first, it was
only used over 'f' and then gradually spread to the other letters.
The scribes used 'h' because at the time Irish orthography was
developing the 'h' didn't have any sound in Latin (as it was
pronounced in the British isles) and the theory was something like
"Well, if we write the useless letter 'h' after 'c' it means the sound
of lenited 'c.'")
 
James Moore
-------------------------	|
/ Go raibh sonas agus	/    	|  [email protected]
/ rath oraibh an	/	|--------------------------------------------|
/ Nollaig agus san	/	|   The University of California only knows  |
/ Athbhliain!		/	|   me as a number.  They couldn't care less |
/ 			/	|   what my opinions are.                    |
-------------------------	|--------------------------------------------|

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!jade!thoth8.berkeley.edu!jmm
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 8 Jan 88 16:10:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 
There was a Yiddish scholar who once said "A language is a dialect
with an army and a navy."  (If anyone knows his/her name, please let
me know.  This is all I can remember.)
 
James Moore
-------------------------	|
/ Go raibh sonas agus	/    	|  [email protected]
/ rath oraibh an	/	|--------------------------------------------|
/ Nollaig agus san	/	|   The University of California only knows  |
/ Athbhliain!		/	|   me as a number.  They couldn't care less |
/ 			/	|   what my opinions are.                    |
-------------------------	|--------------------------------------------|

From:	SNDBOX::ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  09-Jan-1988 1949"  9-JAN-1988 19:49
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!amdcad!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!reading!onion!cf-cm!robert
Subject: Re: Taliesin
Posted: 22 Dec 87 18:14:20 GMT
Organization: Univ. Coll. Cardiff, Cardiff, WALES, UK.
 
In article <[email protected]> jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>
>      How is "Taliesin" pronounced ??
I've heard it pronounced Tal-yes-in or Tally-yes-in.  I don't suppose
it matters which.  The accent is on the "yes" (the penultimate syllable
is usually the accented one in Welsh).
 
 
-- 
  Robert Evans, Dept of Computing Maths, University College Cardiff,
  PO Box 78, Cardiff, Wales, UK, CF1 1XL.  Tel: +44 (0)222 874000 x 5518
  E-mail:    [email protected]     UUCP: [email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbcad!ames!amdcad!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!philmds!prle!nvpna1!collins
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 8 Jan 88 09:05:17 GMT
Organization: Philips Research Labs, Eindhoven
 
> mentioned in passing at a convention this fall that proficiency
> in Irish is a requirement for being a member of the armed forces,the Gardai,or
> the civil service there.  That suggests to me that there is still considerable
> support for the language on the part of the government.  
 
I think "procficiency in Irish" is an overstatement, it's more like a "basic
grasp of Irish". The honour guard at official cermonies, for example,
receive orders in Irish. The government still support the language, but they
are not promoting it to any great extent.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!mcnc!gatech!hao!oddjob!sphinx!pgil
Subject: Re: dialects
Posted: 9 Jan 88 17:07:41 GMT
Organization: U Chicago Computation Center
 
hello all
Just a few observations on some of the comments that have been coursing the
net regarding the Irish Language and in particular, it's current standing
in Ireland.
I have just returned from a three week visit there ( my first since I left
three years ago) and had some good conversations with friends intimately
involved in the government sponsored efforts to sustain the Irish Language.
 
First: The extent of native Irish speakers is not, as is commonly thought,
limited to remote pockets of the West; true, by far the largest population
resides there, but there also exists Gaeltacht areas in the north-west 
(Co. Donegal) and in an area just outside Dublin (Co. Meath) still known
as "the pale".
 
Second: It is the PEOPLE of Ireland, and not the government on whose shoulders
the responsibility for the demise of the language should be squarely placed.
Given that every Irish person has been thought Irish since first grade, one
would assume a high degree of fluency by high school graduation, yet this is 
not the case. The general attitude of the Irish people towards their language
has been one of apathy. How can anyone expect a language to survive under 
those conditions? And yet surviving it is and prosper it will, more by 
virtue of those who are committed to the language, both from within
and without the government.
 
cheers,		Paul Gilna
 
 
 
-- 
UUCP: ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!pgil,   BITNET: [email protected] 
Analogue: (312) 702-6971                VOICE:  Hullo, um, is Paul there?      
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

From:	SNDBOX::ASHBY::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  10-Jan-1988 1926" 10-JAN-1988 19:25
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET soc.culture.celtic newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!decvax!mcnc!gatech!sbmsg1!scbhq!ll1a!ltuxa!ecw
Subject: Re: Guinness is good for you
Posted: 4 Jan 88 21:26:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T - Corporate Training, Lisle, IL
Posted: Mon Jan  4 16:26:46 1988
 
I can speak from experience when I say that Guinness encourages
and increases milk flow for nursing mothers!  Just why?  Those
B vitamins?  The increased fluid?  The relaxed feeling of the
mother after imbibing?  But it worked for me!
-- 
Elizabeth Worden [ihnp4!]ltuxa!ecw
1195 Summerhill Drive,  Lisle,  Illinois,  60532
1 312 971 5635 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Path: decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!reading!cf-cm!robert
Subject: Re: Welsh Community in Argentina
Posted: 13 Dec 88 20:48:24 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, WALES, UK.
 
The Welsh community in Patagonia (Y Wladfa) was set up in 1865 by Michael D.
Jones one of the foremost Welsh nationalists of the 19th Century.  He was
an Independent minister, principal of the Independents' College at Bala.
He was an anti-imperialist who believed that the Welsh nation was under great
threat from England and so tried to get some of the thousands of migrants
already leaving Wales to settle in a colony in Patagonia.  Here the farmers
were to own their own land rather than be tenant farmers as at home.
 
The colony survived for 10 years as an independent state.  Its constitution
established full adult suffrage by secret ballot with Welsh as the language
of Parliament and the courts.  School books were printed.
(This information is summarised from "Land of My Fathers -- 2000 Years of
Welsh History" by Gwynfor Evans, translated from his "Aros Mae".  Gwynfor is
the Honourary President of Plaid Cymru and his book is more a justification
for Welsh Nationalism than a simple history.  He does quote from other
sources but the book contains no bibliography).
 
The state couldn't survive because of the harsh conditions in Patagonia and
eventually became part of Argentina.  The descendents of the settlers are
still there but I have no information on their numbers or culture.
-- 
  Robert Evans, Dept of Computing Maths, University of Wales College of Cardiff,
  PO Box 916, Cardiff, Wales, UK, CF2 4YN.  Tel: +44 (0)222 874000 x 5518
  E-mail: [email protected]     UUCP: [email protected]

I suppose this is as good a place as any to put what I want to say...

It seems that soc.culture.celtic is being broken up.  soc.culture.irish
and soc.culture.scottish are two of the off-shoots of this move.  I
think soc.culture.celtic is staying around, though I would think that
the irish and scottish newsgroups will take a lot of the load off the
mail celtic newsgroup.  Both new groups were overwhelmingly voted into 
existence.

                          James.