Conference tallis::celt

    At  long  last, the network officals have decided to a rayof light
   to descend upon this sordid tale of U.S. governmental incompetence
   and complicity 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ex
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    exit
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
       

    The program "60 minutes" is one of the most widely watched
    "in-depth" programs in the US.  It will be interesting what
    they say (or don't say).
    
    I will tape the show on my VCR if any non-US noter wants to
    watch it.
    
    -George

    Kevin - How about a little more info, like why is he being held
   and by whom?
    
    Jamie 

    RE: .2
    
    	You can't play a US video tape on a European VCR. Different
    	formats (PAL vs. NTSC)
    
    						mike

    
    
    	Jamie ... Get back in the MTS Notefile, where you belong.  :-)

                                                                  
    
    	Film at 11
    
    
    	keVin
    

    Kevin,
    
    	I read about Joe Doherty somewhere some time ago, but could
    you tells us a little more here or could you mail me with a few
    more details.
    
    
    What is happening with the Birmingham six and the Maguire family
    who have been help in British prisons for almost 10 years now, I
    believe.
    
    
    El Gringo needs some info.
    
    
    
    
    

    Last Sunday was the first time I've missed 60 Minutes in about a
    year...would really like to have seen it.  So what's the story with
    this guy??
    
    I have a really hard time believing he is imprisoned with no charges.
    Our justice system is not perfect, but there is no way a guy can
    be imprisoned without charges.  Of course, there ARE plenty of folks
    in prison who are innocent (remember Bobby Joe Leaster, anyone from
    Massachusetts....) 
    
    Someone who watched it, please enlighten the rest of us!  If I know
    the story, I'd be glad to write to him.
    
    thanks,
    
    Diane

    
    	re: .6  Rene, I will send you some hardcopy info in the mail ...
    
    	re: .7  Diane, I have a V.C.R. tape of the program, which you
    		can borrow if you want.
                                        
    
    	The Joe Doherty story is too complicated for me to try and input
    	into this note, and speed-typing was never one of my good subjects.
    
    
    
    	keVin
    

    Kevin, I'd like to see the tape if possible after Diane.  I was playing
    Survival on Sunday and never got home in time to tape it.
    
    -G

    p.s.  I hope Looney Rooney isn't Irish   :0
    

Joe Doherty is a member of the IRA who was involved in an incident in which
a British captain was killed.  He, along with the other IRA members involved,
was charged and convicted of murder and sentenced to a long prison term in
Northern Ireland.  He escaped and made his way to New York, where he was
apprehended by the FBI in 1983.  He has since been incarcerated in the Federal
prison in NYC, and has been fighting extradition to NI.  Six federal judges 
have ruled that his act was military in nature, and therefore does not fall
under the legal definition of terrorism.  In order to gain release from the
New York prison, Mr. Doherty has offered to be extradited to the Republic of
Ireland, where he will face a ten year prison term.  So far the US Government
has declined to take him up on the offer.  This is the gist of the 60 Minutes
show.  Please correct me if I am wrong on any of the details.

/Mike

    
    I dont understand why people think someone who goes around killing
    people should be helped.  I realise most contributors to this notes
    file think its ok.  But I for one think it is absolutly wrong.
    
    At no time did Doherty express the slightest remorse.
    
    I think its no harm that he is in jail.
    

    It has NOT been proven he has killed someone.  But that is not
    my grievance.
    
    The thing that annoys me is that he remains incarcerated, yet
    not charged with any crime.  If that is just, then I'll eat my hat.
    
    -George

    
    Bobby: Is there a difference between Michael Culbert and Joe Doherty ??

                                                                 
           I understand you offered to assist Michael at one time ....
    
    
    	   What ever happened ??
    
    
    	keVin
    
    

    
    re .13,14,15
    
    	There is a big difference. Michael says he was not there and
    did not do it.
    
     Joe Doherty says he was there setting up an ambush
    when the soldier was killed.
    
    There is a treaty between the US and most other countries
    called an extradition treaty.
    This says that a person convicted, or charged with
    a crime in another country can be arrested in the US and sent
    back to that country without being charged with a crime in the
    US. So according to US law Joe has been convicted of a crime
    in N.I. and it is up to Joe to prove that his crime is political.
      
    This seems like a reasonable law to me.
    I think it absolutly stinks that it takes five years to decide what
    to do to him.
    
    I poked around trying to get info on Michael, and even asked the
    RUC pr people (who are not very friendly, or polite ) about him.
    They told me that they have no comment on the affair.
    I have to admit I dropped it after that.
    
    
                 Rob

    I don't have all the background on Joe Doherty but it sounds as
    though he is another political hostage who would have been released
    or returned to Ireland if it wern't for British demands to have
    their propaganda victory.  I can't see any other reason to hold
    him for so long.
    
    Also remember that other Irish prisoners in Britain are held as
    political hostages (the British have the veneer of the process of
    law, but in my opinion it's not much different than Beirut, at least
    the goals are the same).  The Birmingham Six have been cleared by
    everyone except the British Establishment (who are not into admitting
    to mistakes, torture and human rights abuses) and they are now pawns
    in the whole extradition issue between Dublin and London.  The same
    applies to the Guildford Four (also innocent according to independent
    research).
    
    _Dermot

    
    The whole thing is very subjective:
    
    A person killing a couple of hundred US soldiers in Beirut is
    considered a terrorist by most Americans and a hero by many
    others.  
    
     The same applies to the contra's in Nicaragua.  The US government
    says they are freedom fighters and when they get arrested they
    are political prisoners.  The Nicaraguan government says they
    are terrorists.
    
    The same applies to Joe Doherty.  
    If he was jailed for being a member of the IRA and nothing else
    then he is clearly a political prisoner being punished for his
    beliefs.  But he was jailed for his involvement in a violent
    crime, so there are a number of people who do not consider
    him a political prisoner.
    
    If I knew how to solve the different opinions on Joe or the IRA
    I'd go be a diplomat.

    If we are going to discuss 'perspective' perhaps some reality would
    aid our cause. Firstly, Joseph Doherty was imprisoned by the U.S.
    authorities for an immigration violation, and not, on account of
    his political stance. In truth, the sole rationale for holding
    Joseph Patrick in solitary confinement, and without any bail, for
    lo these long years, is first, and foremost his longstanding and
    persistent resistance to the British colonial presence in north-
    east Ireland. In the initial phases of the governmental effort to
    appease the Brits, the federal case attempted to cause Doherty's
    deportation to the U.K. In his own defense, Doherty presented the
    facts surrounding his involvement in the armed struggle, and laid
    his case  for political sanctuary upon the political fugitive exempt-
    ion. As noted previously, the U.S. judiciary, in each and every
    case argued before their venue, held that, in fact, Joseph Doherty
    did qualify as the 'classic' political fugitive. This abject failure
    to enforce 'quasi' foreign policy through the courts then led the
    two governments to conspire in the construction of an Extradition
    Treaty, unlike any which are currently in effect with any of our
    other associated states. In brief, this treaty removes from the
    Judicial system the ability to determine which cases qualify as
    legitimate political exemptions, and places that weighty responsibil-
    ity within the Executive branch, in this instance, the State depart-
    ment. Quite evidently, this opens the door to political influence
    forthcoming from 'friendly',(sic.) nations, anxious to pursue their
    own objectives, which I might add, simpliciticly, are not 'always'
    in keeping within the basic, and accepted standards of human rights,
    as expressed in the U.S. Bill of Rights. The standards which the
    courts here established, and affirmed once again, are the following
    points:
          1. The applicible conflict represented must be one of long
             standing activities within the historical context of the
             appropriate nation.
          2. The individual must be a member of an organisation which
             maintains structure,objectives,and rank.
          3. The targets must be military in nature.
    We all are perfectly aware that if a legal definition was the sole
    and primary means to identify and establish the parameters and terms
    for granting political sanctuary to Joseph Doherty, we would not
    be currently debating his status today. By any 'impartial' applic-
    ation of the codes of western juriprudence, he does qualify as a
    political fugitive. However, this world is seldom just and rarely
    fair, and with Doherty, we are once again challenged to identify
    and perhaps defend those 'core' principles which we purport to be
    central to democracy. We must not delude ourselves into the mis-
    taken conception that the Doherty case is one with 'criminal' over-
    tones. At the very essense of this matter is the query surrounding
    the right of any individual to oppose, within his own limitations,
    a state viewed as unjust, and not be pursued to each corner of this
    planet by that power seeking to deal vengefully with the dissenter.
    To assume any other posture,as a nation, or as an individual, invites
    only more future travesty and injustice done to legitimate political
    fugitives. I might add that an excellent source for this issue is:
    Extraditing the Fugitive by Michael Farrell, (ex. of P.D.) This
    effort takes the historical view of western democracies and their
    attitudes towards these fugitives, and uses recent cases involving
    Irish Republicans as focal points. Impartial and objective reasoning
    are called for in deciding issues as contentious as the Irish extra-
    tion debate, not partisan political pandering to foreign monarchies
    whose policy objectives and actions need no aping. Indeed, they
    are objectionable enough without U.S. connivance.
    dition' debate    
    
    

    Shorty,
    	Somehow I cant see you as a diplomat -)
    		MBr

    
    
    	Welcome Martin ...  :-)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	keVin
    

         Ladies and Gentlemen, I beg of you all a thousand pardons.
     With reference to my note 280.19, I committed an grevious error.
     The book which I used to support my arguements was, improperly
     credited. The correct title should have read, "Sheltering the
     Fugitive" by Michael Farrell. In the future, I will work much
     harder to uphold the astronomically high stardards which are the
     norm rather than the exception within this topic.
     
     Slan, 
     Kevin