Conference tallis::celt

    I was born in Tyldesley (pronounced "Tilsley") which means Tilwald's
    Glade. The neighbouring town was Shackerley, meaning The Robbers'
    Glade. These names are ironic as the area was heavily industrialised.
    
    Tyldesley was built on two hills, known as the Banks of Tyldesley.
    The local accent made Banks into Bongs, hence the local name for
    Tyldesley. Strange but true.
    
    Until recently I lived in Codicote, or Codda's Cottage.
    
    Phillip

    <I'll put this in the right reply>
    
    Starting out, I live in Waltham Massachusetts, which like most
    cities/towns in America, are named after English equivalents.

    Waltham Abbey and Waltham Cross are 2 towns in England about 20
    miles north of London; Waltham Abbey is famous for the Abbey
    Church, a romanesque structure built 6 years before the Battle
    of Hastings in 1060.
    
    Waltham Massachusetts is a suburb of Boston Massachusetts, was once
    famous for the Waltham Watch factory but now famous for its electronics
    plants along the Route 128 highway.  Waltham has about 70k people
    and houses 2 schools - Brandeis and Bentley College.
    
    The actual name `Waltham' comes from an old Anglo-Saxon word which
    means `forest glen'.

================================================================================
Note 189.1                        Waltham Mass                            1 of 1
WELSWS::MANNION                                       9 lines  29-APR-1987 04:34
                            -< The Eleanor Crosses >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Waltham Cross is the site of one of the Eleanor Crosses, built by
    Henry/Edward the Thingy on his journey back to London with the coffin
    of his dead Queen Eleanor. A cross was built at every place the
    coffin rested overnight. Others were Charing Cross, and St. Albans
    had one, there was one in the City somewhere. They've all been pulled
    down now, I think. The one at Charing Cross is a 19th century copy,
    the one in Waltham Cross is a copy too, I think.
    
    Phillip

    I was born in Dublin and as you may know, Dublin has 2 Irish forms,
    Dubh Linn and Baile Atha Cliathe
    
    Dubh Linn means the Black Pool.
    Baile Atha Cliathe means the town at the crossing of the sticks
    It was so called because the first people who inhabited Dublin built
    a bridge of sticks to cross the river Liffey.
    
    
    Many Irish town names means almost nothing in English but when
    translated into Irish are. I forgotten a lot of them that I learned
    in Geography. Clonmel is Cluinn Meala which means the congratation
    of honey, it was built on a monastary or religious congretation
    which made honey as far as my memory serves me.
    
    
    Rene

    I work in Ayr - which I think means "the land", or "the place",
    and stands on a river Ayr.   Maybe similar origins to Eire, and the
    River Aire in Yorkshire.
    
    Ayr's (fairly) close to Glasgow - often translated as "the dear green
    place", though for a while it was less than green when
    industrialisation was in full swing.  I lived and worked there for a
    long time. 
    
    I was born in Carlisle, England - Carlisle derives from "Caer Luel",
    Caer being a camp, Luel being either a local prince or else a
    corruption of Lugo, a minor Roman god - the Romans had a base there
    called Lugovallium, from Lugo (the god) and vallium, the Wall -
    Carlisle's at the western end of Hadrian's Wall, built to keep the
    savage pre-Scots inhabitants of Scotland under control. 

    Re .5: I had ever thought that 'Caer' meant 'Rock' or 'Small hill'
    in Celt (Welsh as well as Gaelic). (Cf Carrick in many Irish place
    names or Car in the name of the Scotch whisky brand Cardhu -Black
    hill- or Welsh place names containing Caer).
    As for Lugo or Lug he was not a Roman but a Gaul and Briton god
    (Cf the Latin name of Lyon, Lugdunum, named after the god of the
    locals). Lug was one of the main Gaul gods along with Belenos, Teutates
    and the goddess Belisama. He was a solar god although little else
    is known of him.
    			Denis.

    Bow to your superior Celt, Denis - rock sounds right, I was
    thinking of the -chester suffixes from a Roman camp (castrum).
    Difficult writing notes before waking up in the morning...

    
    
    MY FATHER CAME FROM GLENFARNE CO. LEITRIM. GLENFARNE MEANS: GLEN
    OF THE ALDER TREES, WHICH SURPRISINGLY STILL FITS SOMEWHAT TODAY,
    OR AT LEAST IN 1983 WHEN I LAST VISITED THERE.
    
    MY MOTHER CAME FROM BALLYGAR CO. GALWAY. BALLYGAR MEANS: CLOSED
    GARDEN NEAR THE RIVER.
    
    THEIR WAYWARD SON COMES FROM BOSTON CO. SUFFOLK, MASS. BOSTON IS
    AN ELISION SAINT BOTOLPH'S TOWN WHICH WAS NAMED AFTER THE CATHEDRAL
    IN THE TOWN FROM WHICH THE ORIGINAL SETTLERS OF MASS. CAME AFTER
    A SHORT STINT IN HOLLAND.
    

    Anglicized place names of Ireland often were corrupted badly.
    For example, Roundstone (which by the way is a band playing up
    at Houlihan's on Saturday night) is a name of a little town
    in Connemara near Clifden.
    
    The original name of the town in Irish was "Cloch na R�n",
    which meant "Stone of the seals", in reference to the many
    seals which frequented the rocky shoreline.  The English
    thought R�n meant round, and hence the name Roundstone.
    
    Roundstone is quite a beautiful tourist area for painters
    sea-lovers, or fishing.  In June there's an annual fair with
    singing, fishing, dancing, and pints of porter.
    
    Sl�n

   re: .2
   
>      Starting out, I live in Waltham Massachusetts, which like most
>      cities/towns in America, are named after English equivalents.

   Flame = candle.
   
   Most cities and towns in the U.S are not named after English equivalents.
   Maybe in New England they are, but, New England is a very small part of
   the U.S. 
   
   Flame = off.
   
   re: .4
   
>    I was born in Dublin and as you may know, Dublin has 2 Irish forms,
>    Dubh Linn and Baile Atha Cliathe
>       
>    Dubh Linn means the Black Pool.

   Dublin was founded by the Vikings.  So, although I can't be sure, I'd
   quess that Dubh and Linn are derived from the Norse words for black and
   pool (or vice versa if I have the order wrong).
   
   As for me, I live in a city named after a Spanish Duke.  Albuquerque,
   only the Spanish form has an 'r' after the first 'bu'. 

    I doubt very much that "dubh" and "linn" are anything but Celtic
    in origin. Both words certainly exist in Scots Gaelic.
    
    We need an Irish speaker/Celtic expert quick. Rene and Denis (good
    Celtic names, eh?) were are you?
    
    Phillip

    And what I forgot to say in .11 is that neither of the two words
    sound at all Germanic, which Norse would be I reckon.
    
    

    Dubh = black.
    
    Hence, Roisin Dubh = Black Rose. [This was often used in song and
				    poetry as another name for Ireland.
    				    "O, my Dark Rosaleen,
    				     Do not sigh, do not weep....."
    
    					Pub on corner of State and
    				     Commercial	in Boston bears same
    				     name.

	There are many more examples of the use of the word Dubh in
    placenames in Ireland, and, In the best of traditions, I cannot
    bring a single one to mind just now! [Dubh is pronounced DUVV]
    
    
        In Scots Gallic, the word is spelled and pronounced DHU. An
    example of its use is the placename that gave its name to the whisky
    known as Chardhu (sp?)
    
    Mike
    
    
    
    

    Re. .10
    
    The Irish language was around long before the Vikings came and founded
    Dublin. The words have no origin in Norse of any of the Scandanavian
    languages. There names are 100% Gaelic.
    
    The reason for the 2 possibilities in Irish is that people who crossed
    the Liffey called it Baile �tha Cliath whereas people who just saw
    it called Dubh Linn.
    
    Rene

    re.13  'Cardhu' [no aspiration]
    
    	fine single malt with a more peat/oily character rather than
    the more favoured [here in the US anyway] oaken character.

     re .15:
     
     > 'Cardhu' [no aspiration]
     
     You might not have any aspiration for the Cardhu, but I wouldn't
     mind a drop, thanks.
     
     --Mr Topaz

    Well I checked my books last night.  In my book, Dublin is shown as
    being derived from the Old Norse word(s?) Duiblinn, meaning Black
    Pool, rather than Dubh Linn.  What I said originally is true.  There
    was no town at the place where Dublin is now until it was founded by
    the Vikings in 841 as a 'longport' (a protected place to keep ships). 
    
    I discovered some other place names whose origins came from the
    Old Norse of the Vikings.
     o Ireland
     o Ulster
     o Leinster
     o Munster
    
    The following towns were founded by the Vikings.
     o Limerick from Hlymrekr (drop the h and the last r)
     o Wexford from Veigsfforth (the f's are a double f, the o has an umlaut)
     o Waterford from Vethrafforthr (same for the f's and o here)
     o Wicklow from Vikingalo
    
    Finally, I need to add that the Vikings were very good at assimilating
    themselves into the native population.   (for example: Russia is
    derived from the words for 'Land of the Rus'.  The Rus were the Vikings
    from the east coast of Sweden.  Another example: Any Irishman with blue
    eyes has a Viking ancester on both sides of his family, since blue eyes
    are a recessive trait.)  This led to the corruption of the original Old
    Norse words by pronunciation preferences of the original inhabitants of
    the places they had conquered.  So, maybe the original Old Norse words
    for Dublin were changed in pronunciation enough to make them sound
    entirely Celtic. 

    I am sure that history as taught in Ireland, like the U.S. and every
    other nation, is distorted.  This distortion is caused by the desire
    to promote those values and customs extent in any country that are
    considered valuable, and to lesson the impact of national failures
    and less desirable traits.
    
    So, to find the truth, read histories of other peoples that relate
    to events affecting or taking place in your country of interest.
    Then form your own opinion.
    
    BTW: As everyone has quessed I'm sure, I'm very interested in Viking
    history.  In note 186.10 I've explained why.

	The reason I heard for the two different names for Dublin was 
that the place names referred to two different places.  "Dubh Linn" or 
"the black pool" was the large marshy pool where the Poddle (which
runs in a culvert nowadays) ran into the Liffey, a little up from the
Liffey mouth. This was where the Vikings moored their ships and
originally settled.  This is the heart of the old city and is
completely built over today; it was situated between the present day
City Hall and Olympia Theatre.  The Castle was originally built to
dominate this port. 

 	"�th Cliaith", the "Ford of the Hurdles" was a few hundred 
yards further upstream, roughly where the Four Courts and St. Michan's 
are today.  It was the first place at which the Liffey could be forded 
in those days.  Apparently the Vikings used one name and the Irish 
used another.  

	I never heard of a Norse etymology for Dublin before.  What 
does it mean in old Norse?  It may even be true: after all, to make 
sense as gaeilge it should be "linn dubh". As for Dublin not being an
"Irish" town, that is true of every town in Ireland.  The Gaels never
had a metropolitan culture: every town in Ireland was founded either
by the Vikings, the Normans, or the English.  This is one reason why 
the Irish language and culture was eradicated, while other occupied
countries which had a metropolitan culture, Poland, for instance,
managed to retain theirs in the face of similar "persuasive tactics". 

    Marty (is this a first name?) is quite right, I found two references
    last night which say that Dublin was founded c. 840 by Norwegian
    invaders. But .19 also has some useful things to say on that, too.
    
    My doubts are not to do with who settled there first, but purely
    on linguistic grounds. I have put a note into the language/linguistics
    conference asking if there is anyone who can confirm this one way
    or another. On this point too I am disinterested, and would be quite
    happy to be proved wrong, as it would just add to the wonder of
    language.
    
    Phillip

    
    
    	I guess that means I can call myself "Thor Foley" now.. :-)
    
    						mike

   re: .19
   
    I don't know the etymology for the old Norse 'duiblinn'.
   
    Your points about the reason for two different place names, and Gaels
    not having a town based culture are well taken. 
   
   re: .20
   
    Yes, Marty is my first name.   I too will be happy to be proved wrong,
    please post a note here or send me mail if you get an answer. 
   
   re: .21
   
    I assume this means you have blue eyes. 
   
   
Peace

			Marty

    I come from a village called Meigh, translation - the flat land/area.
    This makes sense if you know where Meigh is. It lies at the foot
    of a mountain and is flat. 
    
    The town I live nearest to is Newry - Uir cinn Tra. This, as far as
    I know, has some connection with the twon being built around a river
    which had yew trees situated at it's head. 
    
    Teresa.

    Did anyone ever resolve the etymology of Dublin?  The brochure I
    picked up in Dublin last August stated that the name was of Norse
    descent.
    
    Wook (who_was_born_in_Seoul_R.O.K._which_means_"the_center_of_everything")

    Here's what the Bord Failte (Irish Tourist Board) has to say in
    their book about Dublin.
    
    "[the River Liffey] was in flood when Conor MacNessa, a northern
    king was returning from a raid on the King of Leinster and he built
    a ford of boghs and hurdles, thus giving the town the name of Baile
    A'tha Cliath, the town of the hurdle ford."  It doesn't mention
    a date explicitly, but is in the same paragraph with Ptolemy's
    description of the town in 140 A.D.  During that period the area
    was occupied by the Eblani.  The Norse sea-rovers arrived in 840
    A.D. and really started the town on its way.
    
    Later it says, "Meanwhile its [Dublin's] name was undergoing changes.
    The Irish called it Duibhlinn or Dark Pool from the peat coloured
    waters of the Liffey.  They Norse called it Dyffflin and the
    Anglo-Normans Dublinne, from which the present name Dublin derives."

    Of course, if you subscribe to Mary Halvorsen's theory of history,
    none of this is reliable since the Bord Failte is probably composed
    primarily of revisionists.
    
    Tom

    I was born in a town called Caerfilli in south Wales, which lies at the
    junction of the five valleys that were the source of the "men from the
    valleys" tag.  This is not a rocky place, but a hollow, surrounded by
    hills.  The word "bryn" or "bron" describes a small hill while "carreg"
    is often used to describe rocky places, Hence "Caer carreg" - castle
    rock. 
                          
    Wherever you see the prefix "Caer" or "Gaer", you will find a
    fortification, usually dating back to pre-roman times. This is because
    these places were strategically good for siting fortifications and
    Iron-Age, Roman and Mediaeval fortifications can often be found all at
    the same site.  Caerwent has the most amazing Roman ruins, while the
    Roman camp at Caerfilli (probably means "Philip's Fort" lies under the
    Castle at the centre of the town. 
    
    Caerphilli castle is one of four castles that lie within seven
    or eight miles of one another, three were built by the English
    during the period of subjugation while one is a Victorian folly
    built on the ruins of a castle belonging to the Welsh freedom-fighter
    Owain Glyndwr.  It was built in 1275 AD and is the 2nd largest moated
    concentric castle in Europe, covering some thirty acres.  During
    the Civil war it was occupied by local Royalists (I was surprised
    that there were any) and later parts of it were destroyed by
    Cromwell's forces.  During this attack one tower was blown up, but
    failed to fall and the ruins lean at an angle of 30 degrees from
    the vertical.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    PS:  There is a place near Caerphilli called "Pwll Ddu".  'Pwll' is
    Pool while 'Ddu' is black, but we're a bit off the beaten track
    for Norsemen, unlike you Dubliners!
    
    

    From Boston Globe 1 May 1991
    
    Q. What are the English translations of such words as bally, bun, clon,
    clough, dun, kil, kin, lis, moy, port, rath, ros, and tra - all used as
    prefixes in Irish place names?
    
    A. Noted Irish historian P.W.Joyce translated those names - many of
    which are the phonetic spellings in English of Irish words - in his
    classic treatise, Origin and History of Irish Names of Place, published
    in 1875.  Bally, Joyce, noted, is a town or townland; bun, the bottom
    of anything; clan or cloon, a meadow; clough, a stone; dun or doon, a
    fortified residence; kil or kill, a church; kin, head; lis, a circular
    earthern fort; moy, a plain; port, a landing place; rath, a circular
    fort; ros, a wood or point of land; and tra, a strand or beach. 
    Joyce's book is long out of print, but the Appletree Press, Ltd. (7
    James St. South, Belfast BT2 8DL, Northern Ireland) published a
    scaled-down version entitled Pocket Guide to Irish Place Names in 1984.

    Can anybody give me a location for "Knockrow"?  It's mentioned in a
    newspaper report of my great-grandparents' golden wedding anniversary
    in 1914, but I'm unable to locate it on the map index that I have. 
    
    They came from Innishannon near Bandon, but this reference is to a
    letter received from the bridesmaid who could have moved to some other
    county by then.
    

    
    
    There are probably many similar named places in Ireland.
    
    I know one in Co. Galway, its normally spelled Cnoic Rua (sp), which
    is Red Hill ( after some battle I think ), but its normally called and
    spelled Knock Row in English ... dunno why.
    
    The one in  Galway, is in Abbeyknockmoy, which is near Tuam - if 
    that helps.
    
    

There's also Knockando whisky, from Scotland!

	Rather than a town itself, Knockroe probably refers to a
	townland, a sub division of Parishes. In West Cork there
	are 6 townlands with the name Knockroe. Since there are
	usually many people with the same name in an area, using
	the townland gives a better distinction.

	My book on West Cork Townlands lists a Knockroe in the 
	parish of Innishannon.

	---------------------------------------------------------------
	Knockroe (602 acres) Cnoc Ruadh - red hill
	
	  At the north-east in Colliers Quay which probably derives its 
	name from the coal-boats which discharged here. Collier is
	mentioned as personal name. At the south-east is site of
	Carriganssig Castle of the Mc Carthys.

	__________________________________________________________________

    On an 18th century map, I've seen Kinsale, in Co. Cork, referenced as
    "King's Ale", but somewhere recently I read something about the origin
    of the name and it had to do with it being a place on the Bandon River
    that was still tidal, hence "Kin Sale" for "[?] Salt".  What does the
    Kin in Kinsale stand for then?
    

    
    I think the original town sign actually said ....  "For Sale"    :-)
    
    
    
    keVin
    

    Well, keVin, do you have any kin in Kinsale?
    

    A Dhennis,
    
    keVin has kin in every county by now.
    
    Kinsale = Ceann Saile = Tide Head.  Ceann means head.
    
    William Penn, founder of the state of Pennsylvania, was a native
    of Kinsale.  Kinsale was also the site of the failed Spanish
    invasion to help the native Irish against the Sasanaigh.
    
    I'd rather talk about East Cork.  ;v)
    
    Sl�n beo boy,
    S�oirse
    
    p.s. How's the genealogical research going Dennis???  ;v)

    Kinsale is a great place to eat!

    RE: .35  by TALLIS::DARCY 
    
    >p.s. How's the genealogical research going Dennis???  ;v)
    
    Ahh, very well indeed.  I'm finding cousins all over the place, as I'm
    sure you've discovered by now.  ;-)
    

    Can somebody tell me where in Galway is a place called Malice Head?
    

    RE: .38  by me
    
    >Can somebody tell me where in Galway is a place called Malice Head?
    
    Turns out to be faulty handwriting.  Place was Malin Head, not Malice. 
    I guess it's not in Galway either.
    

Paddy Culbert will take you on a tour of there. 

MBr

RE: 39

Malin head in the most northern point of the Inishowen peninsula which 
is part of Donegal. An absolutely beautiful place in the summer and 
desolate in the winter.

Rgds....Gerry

    
    Has anyone been to, or knows of literature on, Kildymo (sp?), Co.
    Limerick?
    
    I recently discovered that some of my ancestors came from there in the
    mid 1800's.
    
    Thanks,
    	
    	Steve 

    
    
    My reference has the spelling as Kildimo ....
    
    
    
    
    keVin
    

The present Kildimo is approx 3 miles closer to the shores of the Shannon
estuary than Old Kildimo. A friend lives in the old RIC barracks in the 
centre of the village and suffice it to say, that when I stayed in his house, it 
appeared to me that they had left in a great hurry and that my friend hadn't
had a chance to clear-up after them! ;-)

I'll ask him for references/histories - what was the family name?

Pat

    
    Thanks Pat,
    
    The family name is Barrett.  My ancestor Henry R. Barrett came to
    Canada around 1840-1855.  According to Catholic church records, his
    mother was Mary Rice and his father John Barrett.  I think he had
    two or three sisters as well, but I don't know if they came at the
    same time.  At the time of his marriage, his father was deceased.
    
    His wife-to-be was Catherine Purtell, also of the same parish.  They
    married in Canada.
    
    I'd be very appreciative if your friend could locate either of these
    names in town.  If I had an address I could try writing to see if there
    is any connection.
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Steve
    

Slige (pronounced SLIGGuh) is the Gaelic word for shell, or shellfish (related to sliog�n)
Sligeach, then, just means "shelly" or "abounding in shellfish". As usual, the town was given 
an entirely meaningless name by the Gall.

"The Rocky Road to Dublin" is a county Antrim song which
preserves a folk-memory of one of a series of roads 
emanating from Teamhar (or Tara), the old Gaelic capital
of Ireland. The particular road referred to in the song
was probably the Sl� Chualann, which ran south from Teamhar
across the river Liffey. That it was "rocky" (i.e. paved), 
at least in parts, can be seen in placenames through which 
it ran - e.g. "Stonybatter", ("batter" being an Anglicized
corruption of the Irish word "b�thar", meaning a road
(originally "a cowpath" from "b�", meaning "cow")). 

It also ran through Booterstown, where again "Booter" is a 
corruption of B�thar.
In the 18th century, Booterstown was 
famous for revelry
and debauchery, and this ancient road was 
used by rakes
going up to Booterstown for a night of raving. 
They
called it "going on the batter", which thenceforth
became synonymous with "going on the tear", "going
on the piss".

Interestingly, going "on the tear" (that rhymes
with "wear", not "ear") is also a phrase of Gaelic
origin, from "ar t�ir", meaning "in pursuit (of)",
"in search (of)".

Like most Irish place-names, Kinvara has a name which is meaningless
in the "parley-voo Earlonday" English transliteration which was pushed
on the poor place by the Ordnance Survey. To understand its meaning
you must look at its Gaelic name: Cinn Mhara, which means "at the head
of the sea". Cinn Mhara stands at the head of a long inlet in Galway bay
and for years was an important port for sailing boats from Cois Fhairrge
bringing turf from the Connemara bogs which would be sold by the cartload
to farmers from Clare who would come up for the day to stock up with turf
(there are no bogs in Clare), catch up on the gossip, and have the crack.

The boats, called Galway hookers, plied this trade until the 40s when the
metallisation of roads and availability of motorised transport brought about 
its demise. The boats almost died out, but not quite; and now they have
enjoyed a revival as pleasure yachts. Each year a gathering of the boats
is held in Cinn Mhara to race and celebrate these beautiful Galway boats.
The festival, Cruinni� na mB�d, is held at the end of July/start of August.

Meanwhile, away from the bickering and poisonous hatred:
did you know that the Rose of Tralee festival was held
this weekend? You may not know anything more about Tralee
than that it hosts this sort-of beauty contest each year,
but if you can speak a little bit of Gaelic, you'll also
know that Tralee has a beautiful beach, because that's what
the name means:

An Tr� L� - the lustrous beach.

    I like the strand at Inch better :v) (there are 2 pictures
    over my head of the panoramic views at Inch)  Is Inch a
    corruption of inis meaning island?
    
    So tell us, who is the new Rose of the lustrous beach?
    
    /George

Inch, as you rightly surmised, George, is just an
angicization of Inis, meaning island or peninsula.
I think the biggest Inis in Ireland is Inishowen
(often with the redundant "peninsula" added) in
Donegal. Donegal is thus composed of Tyrconnell
(the land of the Conall) and Inishowen (Owen's
peninsula). That's the same fellah who gave his
name to Tyrone (the land of Owen).

Yesterday was the finals of the Rose of Tralee.
Gaybo got through the 32 roses in two evenings
and the smart money was on the Adelaide Rose.
As usual, the smart money lost. The new Rose
of the beautiful beach is the Limerick Rose, 
Muirne Hurley!

What's this got to do with Crumlin and Shankill?
Well, not much; but not nothing either. I was
thinking of these two names because they reminded
me of the pattern of placename-giving not just
in Ireland, but throughout the world. Places are
sometimes named after famous people or events (or
sometimes after other places!), e.g. Anglia, Lyons,
New York, Louth, Clare, Ludwigshafen; but more usually 
they named after physical features of the landscape,
e.g. Cambridge, Oxford, Blackpool, Highgate, Little Rock,
Stuttgart, Bordeaux. 

Scottish and Irish names follow this pattern as well, 
but because the Anglicized versions of the names 
obscure the original meaning of the place-name, most 
people don't know the wealth of geography and history 
which are preserved in the names of their surroundings.
In Ireland at least, the loss of this dinseanchas, along
with the loss of cultural inheritance, has contributed to
the lack of self-esteem among many people. Not in the North,
of course, where both sides have a very strong feeling
of cultural identity (though of different cultures), 
but in the South and especially on the east coast and very 
especially in Dublin, many people don't know anything of 
their cultural inheritance, and look to the BBC and MTV 
to provide them with a new one. Hence their lack of self-esteem. 
Meanwhile the jewel of their culture glitters all around them 
like the beach in Tralee.

Dublin and Booterstown, we've seen already. These both
refer to the physical geography of the place.Two other
well-known places in Dublin are Crumlin and Shankill,
and they have counterparts in the north too. They are 
in the same physical-features tradition as Dublin,
Booterstown, Tralee, Derry, Belfast, Inch and Bangor.
Crumlin is really Crom-ghleann, the twisty valley.
Shankill (which some people misspell as Shankhill, such
is their desire to give a meaningful name to the place)
is Seanchoill, or Oldwood. Now isn't that much nicer?

XSTACY::BDALTON, thanks for the interpretations and corrections on
place names - I find them fascinating!  Please, post more!  A guide
to interpreting them would be nice, too; for example, at this point
(as far as I can remember) I know that "Cil" or "Kil" means a Church;
that "Inis" is an island or peninsula - how about more?

Thanks!
-Jay
(who spends too much time thinking about Eire, and not enough time there!)

In general it is not possible to go from the Anglophonic name of a town
to its meaning. The Imperial Ordnance Survey, while producing excellent
maps, had no interest in providing proper placenames, instead choosing to
attempt to put an English orthography onto the sounds they heard when they
asked a local "What do you call this place?". The result had nothing to do
with the real name of the place. In many cases the same English spelling has
been used for quite separate Irish words (e.g. "Bally" is often used for both
"baile" meaning "town", and "B�al �tha", meaning "Ford entrance"; or "Kil" 
for both "Coill" meaning "wood" and "Cill" meaning "church"), and equally
often, different English spellings were given to the same Irish word
(e.g. "Bel" and "Bal" are both used for "B�al" meaning "river mouth" or
"estuary"). The first reflects the fact that the surveyors weren't listening
very hard when they took the names down; the second that they weren't in
the least interested in what the names meant. It was all done on in ad-hoc,
careless, couldn't-care-less manner, and the end result was that there
is simply no systematic way of converting these Menospikkadagaylick names
back into Gaelic. It's really rather lucky that France escaped colonial
status long before the Survey came into being, or our maps would be full
of rubbish like "Parry", "Leeong", "Boardo", "Oarlyung" and "Shalong-sewer-mare".

An tSuirbh�ireacht Ordan�is has its origins in the old Imperial Ordnance
Survey (or at least the Ordnance Survey of Ireland part of it), and there is
nothing Irish about it today other than its name. It still produces no gaelic maps,
though it did once produce a 9 mile map in the old Gaelic script (this shows
you how long ago it was). There _is_ a gazetteer, however, which gives placenames
in both English and Irish. It's better than nothing. You can order this from:

An tSuirbh�ireacht Ordan�is
Pairc an Fhionnuisce
B�C 8
�ire
Tel: +353  1 820 6100

Send them a complaint about their lack of Irish maps, while you're at it.

The Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland, on the other hand, has produced
a beautiful map of the North in a fully bilingual version. This excellent
map is called "�ire Thuaidh", and it is based on their "Ireland North" tourist
map.

Unfortunately, I don't have their address, but I'm sure a letter sent to 
"The Ordnance Survey, Belfast" would get there (does anyone have a fuller address?).

Once you have the Gaelic name of the place, it is the simplest matter to look up
the elements in a normal dictionary. The names are usually very straightforward.
By the way, "Phoenix", as in "Phoenix Park" has nothing to do with transplanted
mythical Greek birds. It comes from the Irish "Fionnuisce", meaning "Bright Water"
(or "clear", or "sparkling").

    Decoding the correct anglicized place names is sometimes akin to
    translating Mayan hieroglyphics. :v) Though if the English didn't
    do the ordinance survey maps back them, some or much of the place
    name history would have been lost.
    
    My Irish teacher has that 9 mile map with the Gaelic script. I haven't
    been able to locate another as it's out of print now.  It's a shame
    that you can't obtain an up-to-date map of Ireland in Irish only.
    
    Unfortunately, much of the Indian place name history of Massachusetts
    has been lost.  I'll give you an example.  We have a Mackerel Hill
    nearby our house.  It's not near any water.  Nobody knows the origin
    of the name, it is probably some old Indian name...
                     
    Rgds,
    /G

    <<We have a Mackerel Hill
    <<nearby our house.  It's not near any water.  Nobody knows the origin
    <<of the name, it is probably some old Indian name...
    
    Holy cod, what a hill!
    
    Korff

    Korff O'Bunk.  Good to hear from you!  We thought you were
    traded to the Nordiques for some maple syrup and poutine.
    I take it we didn't go to Kerry this summer?
    
    And I'm still open to suggestions on Mackerel Hill if anyone
    is an Algonquin language expert...  :v)
    
    /G

re: Mackerel hill

Could be misleading. I have been told of a Scottish offshoot to the Kerrell
family known as the MacKerels but have never actually seen any solid evidence.

Dave.

>Could be misleading. I have been told of a Scottish offshoot to the Kerrell
>family known as the MacKerels but have never actually seen any solid evidence.
    
    I never thought of that.  That makes more sense though, since I can't find
    any Indian words that sound like Mackerel.  I'll have to check the
    early census records for MacKerels/Kerrells in the area...

Greysteel might seem a strange name for a sleepy rural village.
That's because it is. The name is an interesting corruption of 
its proper Gaelic name. Interesting, because it is rare for
these corruptions to actually have meaning in English, and when
they do, they are invariably pre OS names. Greysteel is actually
Glas-stiall, the Green Strip (of land), after the style of narrow
fields popular in crofting communities.

If you've been to Galway, you'll know of a couple of other examples
of anglicized corruptions that seem as if they make sense: Terryland
and Castlelawn. Terryland has nothing to do with Archduke Wogan. 
It's actually T�r Oileain, the Land of the Island, referring to a
hook of land that juts into Lough Corrib. Castlelawn has no lawn.
It's just Caisl�n, meaning Castle.

(.-1) Oops, Caisle�n, that should of course have been.



The correct name for Derry/Londonderry is Doire Cholm Cille,
"the oakwood of St. Colm (or Columba or (yuck) Columbkille)"
in English, named after one of the most famous Irish saints. 
Colm (or "Calum", as he is known in Scotland) was a nobleman 
of the great Ulster clann, � Neill, founded by the chieftain
Niall Naoighiallach, or Niall of the Nine Hostages, as he is
known in English. It is this Niall whose men, raiding Wales, 
kidnapped St. Patrick and brought him to Ireland as a slave.

Incidentally, hostage-giving was a common way of sealing an
alliance. Both chieftains asserted their faith and trust in 
each other by offering hostages to their new ally. Normally
this took the form of sending a son to their ally's home to
be fostered. This was an excellent way of keeping the peace
(compare with the later European practice of marrying off a
daughter to the ally or one of his kin).

Anyway, back to Colm. As a chief's son he was fostered out,
but, strangely enough, to a priest. Colm became a member of
the church himself, and set about transforming it radically 
by the foundation of a series of monasteries throughout the 
country (remember, this is in the sixth century), the first
of which was Derry and the most famous of which was Durrow. 
(This also means oakwood. Oak was held sacred by the Celts)

After several years travelling the country he made his base
in his first monastery at Doire where the saint endeavoured 
to create a centre of scriptorial excellence. However, this
proved to be his undoing: another well-known churchman (was 
it St. Finian? I can't remember. Let's pretend it was) lent
him a book, and Colm secretly had it copied by his scribes.
When St. Finian discovered this he was outraged and went to
Colm demanding that he hand over the copy. Colm refused and
Finian took his case to court, where the high-king famously
made the first documented ruling on copyright: "To each cow 
her calf, to each book its copy".

Colm didn't take this lying down. He persuaded his kinsman,
the � Neill chief, to challenge Diarmuid, the high-king. In 
the field of battle, Cuildreimhne, Diarmuid lost - but Colm 
was so ashamed of having caused the deaths of many hundreds
of valiant men, that he repented his sin of pride and asked
the church council to pass its judgement on him. It set him
the penance of exile to Scotland where he was to convert to
Christianity as many souls as had perished in the battle.

Colm and twelve disciples set sail one bitter March morning 
in 563, out through the Foyle estuary and into the waves of
the Atlantic, bound for Scotland. They arrived at Mull, but
Colm decided to go further, because he could still make out
the Irish coast on the horizon. They pressed on and came to
the "Island" ("I" in Gaelic). Here beyond the horizon, they
founded the first monastery in Scotland. I Chaluim Cille it
is now commonly called in Gaelic. Iona.

Iona was to become Calum's most famous monastic foundation,
outshining even Durrow in vigour and intellectual vitality.
At the time, the Gael had just arrived on the west coast of
Scotland. For them, it was frontier country. Calum was well
respected by the settlers because of his links with � Neill
and because of his political skills. He also began to forge
links with the Picts, and it is largely due to him that the
newcomers were able to settle peacefully in their new home.
His achievement was in forging an alliance beween these two
groups by intermarriage between the respective royal lines.
The first king of Scotland, Malcolm ( or Calum ) Ceann Mor, 
was thus of both Pictish and Gaelic blood.

The monastery in Iona also served as the centre of learning
and erudition for the whole of western Europe (seaways, you
will recall, were the autobahns of their day and the island
was by no means as isolated as it appears today). Calum and
later abbots brought the finest scribes, scholars, artists, 
illustrators and craftsmen to work at there, and many great
works of art were produced there (for instance, the Book of 
Kells, which now lies in the library at TCD). The monastery
remained the star in the heavens of the Celtic church until
the coming of the Vikings. Calum died there in the year 597
in the little stone chapel that he and his monks had built.

    re.60
    I was fascinated reading this. I've printed it off to send to my mother
    who goes on an annual "pilgrimage" to Iona every year.
    As an aside, John Smith the Labour leader who died recently was laid to
    rest in the church grounds in Iona this year. Iona being the "holy
    place" of the Church Of Scotland.
    
    

    
Amazing info..That was one hell of a sentence the guy got...
    
speaking of islands and pilgrimages Has anybody has the "pleasure"
of doing a stint on Lough derg...in county donegal. This is a place where
you go for 2 days to pray and repent..seemingly you do a few of
these and your in business as regards the next life...big credits.
Brother of mine made the mistake of giving some folk a "sure" bet on a dog
saying if it lost he would EVEN go to Lough derg for a stint...

The lord must have heard about it too...Dog is still running...so off the
brother had to go...bus journey up..25,000 holy marys 50,000 our
fathers later and he arrives..you are put on a boat and rowed out..and then
the serious stuff happens...You have to fast..no food except for lough derg
soup as its called...8 hrs into the session he gets his first soup...a bowl
of hot water with pepper in it!!!!!!thats it!...he had brought a few banannas
on the sly and of course evrybody got the scent so he was shamed into throwing
them out...You sleep on bunk beds..wooden...great for your back...if your
have any back left...on the second day he started smoking!.. you have to go
to a mass during the night and when he was nodding of to sleep he would get a
dig from someone to wake him up. The man hasn't said a prayer since he came
back..smokes like a chimney and if you mention dog races to him he nearly
passes out....

    rgs
Mick

    Yeah, I watched some show on it when I was over in Donegal. 
    Apparently, the real serious ones walk around the entire night
    saying prayers in bare feet. It must be cold and damp out there.
    
    Mick, the only thing I can personally liken it to... is when I went
    up to a ski house in Cow Hampshire for a pleasure-filled ski weekend.
    My friend and I came back late to the house and had to sleep in a
    little 8' x 8' room with 4 bunk beds, 5 drunken guys snorring,
    sweating, and f*rting, with the heat stuck on full blast and the
    windows nailed shut. There were shovels and other garden implements
    strewn about the bedroom, and condoms on the front walk. I got up and
    slept in an unheated barn in my down ski jacket, saying several Hail
    Mary's along the way... ;v)  It wasn't Lough Derg, but I knew all the
    saints were listening and laughing nonetheless.
    
    My winter vacation,
    by George Darcy

    
    
    I can't resist but
    
    
    little 8' x 8' room with 4 bunk beds, 5 drunken guys snorring,
    sweating, and f*rting, with the heat stuck on full blast and the
    windows nailed shut. There were shovels and other garden implements
    strewn about the bedroom, and condoms on the front walk. I got up and
    
    
		What were the condoms doing on the front walk..???:-)
    

    My winter vacation - part deux
    
    I don't know. Well, I can guess.  My friend nicknamed this
    place the "Ski Brothel".  In fact (the story gets more complex),
    we couldn't open the bedroom door to lower the temperature,
    because there was a young couple making love in the adjoining
    room on the sofa with rich Corinthian leather (the sofa).
    
    I knew things were awry when we arrived at the brothel there was
    a happy hour party complete with a wet T-shirt contest and a
    uniformed policeman as bouncer/emergency medical technician.
    This was followed by another happy hour at a nearby pub where
    sales representatives from Dewars (is it from Scotland? - it's very
    good) were giving away free samples.
    
    All this without YE-3.
    
    ;v)

    Don't knock the Dewars
    

re 188.60

I thought the book of Kells was written in Kells, not
Iona ... or is that where it was 'found'?

Eamonn
Who sometimes had to give directions to "Kelly's book"
at TCD.

    
    
    re .52; 
    
    whatever Cil or Kil means, Ireland is the only country I have been in
    that has a large Motorway sign that say "Kil 22", or is "Cil ..", I
    forget.
    
    

One of the most beautiful train journeys in Scotland is the
trip along the weat Highland line from Inverness (Inbhir Nis -
the mouth of the Ness) into the Kyle of Lochalsh. On a sunny
day you are in heaven. More likely, though, it'll be a misty
soft day, and you'll see where Lochalsh gets its name from
Caol means a narrows, which is why the bridge to Skye is being
built between Caol Acainn agus Caol Loch Aillse, this being the
narrowest stretch of water separating Skye from the Scottish
mainland. Loch Aillse is the fairy lake, or the ghostly lake.

        I was  born in Kyle and lived on Lochalsh Road looking over the
        sea to Skye (hmm - good name for a song, that!) :*)
        
        Dunno that I'll ever go back since from what I hear, the bridge
        is doing nothing for the scenery or the locals...
        
        Andy
        

When I first learned that the hillfort of Dunadd in Argyll had 
been the capital of Scotland, I thought I was having my leg pulled;
Edinburgh has the looks of a capital city. Paris has the looks of
a capital city, so does New York. Dunadd has the looks of a grassy
mound. I found it hard to believe that it was a capital city once;
but so it was. Dunadd stands above the narrow isthmus separating
Loch Fyne from Jura sound and was the key eastern point of entry 
to the new Scottish kingdom of Dalriada in the sixth century. It 
was a frontier fortress (Argyll comes from Earra Gaidheal - the 
boundary of the Gael) whose military importance was so great that 
the Scots chose to crown their kings there.

There are still a number of relics at Dunadd, but the most important
one is no longer there. It is the Stone of Destiny, brought by the
Scots from Ireland. On this stone, Scottish kings have been crowned
from time immemorial. For a dozen generations the border of the Gaelic
kingdom lay along the mountains separating Perthshire from Argyll.
Then Kenneth Mac Alpin through dynastic marriage brought the two
kingdoms - Pictish and Gaelic - together and formed the nucleus
of modern-day Scotland. The capital was moved via Dunkeld to Scone, 
and the crowning-stone with it, where it remained until Edward of 
England stole it and brought it to Westminster, where it is still 
used in the crowning ceremony of English monarchs.

Incidentally, just at about the same time as Kenneth Mac Alpin was
extending Gaelic power on mainland Scotland, the vikings were busy
cleaving Dalriada in two - Iona, the flower of Gaelic learning, was
repeatedly raided and monks and treasures tranferred to Dunkeld and
Kells, in County Meath. The Great Gospel of Colm Cille probably 
went to Kells in 814 where it was completed (to finally answer 
Eamonn; but see note 205 for another view). Happily, the Foras Cult�r 
Uladh, based in Gleann Cholm Cille in Donegal, raised the money to
buy a copy of the Swiss reproduction on behalf of the people of the 
area.

    OK I have a good one.  Anyone gander a guess as to the
    etymology of the English word "Torry" (as in Maggie's party) ???

I think it's an old Irish word for `thief'.  Pretty apt, really (given
that my tax demand has gone up twice in the last week!)

Chris.

    OK, here's another one...
    
    Why is Clare called the banner county?
    (Hint - it goes back to the 1800's)
    
    /george

    
    maybe the spuds ?
    

    
    it is the spuds..... Banner Whites is the type of potato that's grown
    in Clare.
    
    Bill

Incidentally, Clare is not in the least a Gaelic name.
It's named after a great Norman family, the de Clare
family, who came from Clare in England, where I used 
to live. It's only a (beautiful) village now, but it once 
was the power-base of this Norman family whose service
to the Norman monarchy made them immensely wealthy.

Clare (the village) is in Suffolk, and by a coincidence,
I also used to live in Suffolk, a suburb of Belfast
near D�n Muirigh. My granny and granda lived nearby in
Slievegullion Drive, so I was interested in a BBC NI
programme, "Places Apart", which was this week about
the efforts to preserve the culture and traditions
of Mullaghbawn (or Mullaghbane as it is on some maps)
in the beautiful Ring of Gullion. Actually, preservation 
is a poor choice of words, because it's clear that the 
culture is thriving there: the pubs are full of music 
and dancing, not to attract visitors (it doesn't - this 
is bandit country), but because the people of An Mullach 
B�n just love it. A clear sense of community pride was
evident in the programme.

Many people in An Mullach B�n speak Gaelic, some as their main
language, and their pride in it was evident in the programme,
despite its lack of status in NI. As one interviewee pointed
out, how can you fail to be interested in it when the very names
of virtually every town, village, stream and hill sing it out?
An Mullach B�n means 'the white summit' (an odd name for a
village in a glen), referring to nearby Sliabh gCuillinn
(Slieve Gullion - Hollymount ).

The one annoyance in the whole program was the presenter,
Anne Gregg, who is one of those Ulsterfolk who apparently 
feel that their native accent is inferior to a middle-class
southern English accent and proceed to lose it. Perhaps as 
a result of this, she felt that she knew Micheal Mac Aodha's 
name better than he did himself (he was a development officer
for and of the region); she renamed him Michael McCoy, despite
him having clearly given his name as Micheal (that's ME-HAUL)
Mac Aodha (Mac Aodha
seems to have spawned quite a few 
anglicizations: McCoy, McKay,
McKee and Magee).

As I mentioned earlier, the area is absolutely alive with 
Gaelic placenames, completely familiar to everyone in NI, yet 
meaningless
to those with no Gaelic - places like Newry, Forkill, 
Belleek,
Crossmaglen, Armagh. My favourite is Tandragee, which is
T�in Re Gaoith, or Arse to the Wind.

    I thought Clar the county (An Clar) was named after
    the adjective "clar" meaning flat, since much of Clare
    is a high flat plain. Am I wrong?
    
    It is the Banner county because Michael Connolly was
    the first Catholic elected to Parliament. Hence Clare
    was thought to lead the nation or "carry the banner".
    De Valera and others ran their elections from Clare
    because of the significance of this.
    
    I'll have to remember Tandragee! Some of my favorites
    are Oughterard (Uactar Ard - high top), & Cloch na Ron
    (Seal Rocks) in Connemara which got badly anglicized
    into Roundstone.                
    
    /g 

    
    There is a place in Scotland called Auchterarder, in the central
    highlands in fact, which would have benn gaelic speaking until probably
    the mid 18th century.
    
    Bill

    I was interested to see that "Cuillinn" means "Holly" and that "Toin"
    means "Arse" (it's an education, this conference, isn't it?) in Irish.
    The equivalent words in Welsh are "Celynnen" (pronounced Kelunnen if
    you're a benighted Saxon) and "Tin". Perhaps P-Celtic and Q-Celtic
    aren't so far apart after all !
    
    Interestingly, the musicians The Pogues take their name from the
    expression "Pogue Mahone", an anglicisation of "Pog mo Thon" (sp?).
    "Pog", I am informed, means "Kiss".
    
    Are the Cuillin hills in Skye the "holly hills" ?
    
    Pob hwyl,
    
    Dave
    
    
    

Cl�r, meaning a table, or flat surface, is certainly a fortuitous 
name for County Clare, but I promise you, the name actually comes
from the Norman family who were given the area for services to the
English throne.

The Cuillin or Coolin Hills in Skye are in fact not the 
"holly hills", but yet another example of poor anglicisation. 
They are actually the hills of C� Chulainn (though the
name "holly hills" has been translated back into Gaelic
as "An Cuilfhionn", the name which is given for the
Cuillin - in my view mistakenly - in Dwelly's Faclair 
Gaidhlig gu Beurla le Dealbhan). C� Chulainn was born
in Dundalk under the name of Setanta, and is one of the
main characters in a cycle of semi-mythical tales called
the R�ra�ocht (or Rudhraigheacht). One of the tales tells
how he got his name. Briefly, he killed the guard dog of
a merchant called Culann, and in recompense offered to
take the dog's place until a new dog had been trained.
C� Chulainn means the hound of Culann

C� Chulainn was a warrior in the royal court. As part of his 
training he went to the Misty Isle for training under the 
greatest warrior in Gaeldom at the time, whose name I can't
quite remember, but it was Scatach or Scathach. The Misty
Isle is still called this. Skye: Eileann a' cheo. C� Chulainn
remained there for some time, until he was able to best
Scatach and her daughter (he also bonked them both, which
led many years later to him killing his only son), and
then returned to his fate in Ireland, which was heroic.

The name Skye is of dubious origin. In Gaelic it's
"Sgith" or more usually "an t-Eilean Sgitheanach",
but what this means is anyone's guess. Some think it's
a Norse name, which would make "Eilean a' Cheo" an earlier
name (since it appears in the Rudhraigheacht which were set 
in the fourth century, though not created until the sixth
or seventh, and written down a good deal later).

Others suggest that the island and the warrior Scathach
are named for each other. Either the island was named
after Scathach, or in some way she was meant in the tales
to represent the island. It's possible that both names
come from Sg�th, which means shadow or shade - another
echo of the Misty Isle. Who knows?

Pob hwyl.

    re: .81
    
    Do you know where the name Rudhraigheacht came from?  I've
    only heard the stories referred to as part of the Ulster
    cycle.  And while Scathach's daughter did take a fancy to
    Cu Chulainn, I thought the mother of his son was Aife,
    leader of the folks who were at war with Scathach at the
    time.
    
    Thanks for putting all this stuff in, by the way; I like
    reading it too.
    
    Nancy

Re: .-1

Yes, I misremembered, which was particularly stupid of me,
because the tale I obliquely referred to is actually called
"The Death of Aife's only son", which should have been a
clear reminder to me. Incidentally, this title hints that
Gaelic society at the time was matrilineal. Finally, the
Ruadhraigheacht and the Ulster Cycle are one and the same.

Re: 188.77

I said that Clare's name wasn't in the least Gaelic, but I have
since read that it is, in fact, a Celtic name! The town of Clare, 
in Suffolk, England, come from a Brythonic celtic word which
is related to Modern Welsh claear (mild, pleasant) or claer (bright,
shining) and probably refers to the river Stour which runs through
it (the Stour is very flat and calm around Clare).

Stour is a common name for rivers in England, and it's a very old
Brythonic name meaning "strong". In fact river names in general are
among the oldest words we have. The most common river name in England
is Avon, which is a word of celtic origin, meaning simply "river".
In modern Welsh it's "afon" and in Gaelic "abhainn" (pronounced
"owen" or "oven" as the fancy takes you), in Breton/Cornish "auon"
and in Gaulish it's guessed to be "abona". All of these come from
a earlier Indo-European root, supposed to be "aba". The river Awe
in Strathclyde, for instance comes from this word directly (its
name in AD700 was Aba). Another common river name is "Ouse", which
means "water" (cf. Gaelic uisce, uisge).

    Can one of you global experts tell me what "Ailsa" (as in Ailsa Craig)
    means ? I'm assuming the "Craig" bit means "rock".
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave
    

The "Ailse" in "Ailse Craig" is the same as the "-alsh" in "Lochalsh".
It means "fairy". The actess Ellen Terry when she first heard of Ailse Craig
exclaimed "What a wonderful name for an actress!", so what better than
for her illigitimate son to use Craig as his surname! Gordon Craig is
ainm do.

    "Ailsa Craig" is also the name of a variety of onion !! The thought of
    eating a "Fairy Rock" onion is a little incongruous...   :-)
    
    
    Is the "..se" ending of "Ailse" equivalent to the Irish "Sidhe" ?
    
    There, that's three notes without a mention of politics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    This could be the start of something sensible ! Hah !
    Rydw i'n gobeithio ond dydw i ddim credu hon...
    
    Dave the panceltic apolitical cuddywifter... :-)
    
    (I meant "the name", not "

    Re .-1
    please ignore the last fragmentary line - I'm using some pre-Raphaelite
    editor here and it seems to have objected to my use of the arrow keys
    
    
    Dave the hamfisted
    

    re: .82
    
    The name 'Rudhraigheacht' for the Ulster cycle actually
    comes from 'Clann Rudhraighe', which was the name that
    the Ulaidh actually used for themselves. The Ulaidh were
    the sept inhabiting the north-east, and were a branch of
    the �rainn, a group which also included the Connachta
    (with whom the Ulaidh are fighting in the Rudhraigheacht),
    but didn't include the Laighin (from whom Leinster took
    its name) or the Cruithin (or Pretani, a pre-Gaelic Celtic 
    group prevalent throughout Ireland and Scotland, in which 
    latter country they were called Picts by the Romans).
    
    Dundrum Bay, in Co. Down, is known in Gaelic as
    Loch Rudhraighe
                                                       

I see the Rev. Martin Smyth has made a trip to Drumcree
this year. He felt such behaviour to be beneath him
last year.

"Drumcree" is the parlay-voo spelling of "Druim Cr�che",
the Boundary Ridge. You can hear in this the typical 
east-Ulster/Meath weakening of "ch", so that it sounds
more like a \h than an \x

Droim/Druim (meaning "ridge" or "hill") is a very common placename 
element in both Ireland and Scotland e.g. 
An Droim M�r - the big hill - Dromore

"Garbh Achadh" is a very common name in its various anglicizations
(Garvaghy, Garvagh). It means "the rough field/plain", and can
be found in every province.


Both elements are found in lots of other Gaelic placenames, e.g.:
Gleann Garbh - the rough glen - Glengarrif

Achadh Dubhtaigh - Duffy's field - Aghadowey
Achadh na cloiche - the field of the stone - Aughnacloy

> Achadh Dubhtaigh - Duffy's field - Aghadowey

Achadh Dubhthaigh, that should be, of course.

Dubhthach (genitive Dubhthaigh) means black-haired,
and is a common family name (usually anglicized as above).

One famous Dubhthach was the file (poet/seer) 
Dubhthach mac ua Lughair, who was the first file
to lend his support to Padraig Naofa and christianity.
As a result, the saint is said to have blessed
Dubhthach's mouth, so that thereafter he could
compose inspired poetry.

Unlike Dubhthach mac ua Lughair, the most famous
Dubhthach was a fictional character. This was 
Dubhthach Daol Uladh, a character added the
Ulster cycle to heighten the drama. He was famously
ruthless in his taking of vengeance on the men
(and often women) of Ulster (though he himself was
an exiled Ulsterman). His sobriquet, Daol Uladh,
means "chafer of the Ulstermen".

Yesterday, poor Michael McGoldrick was found dead
in yet another field - Aghalee, or Achadh L�,
the bright (or beautiful) field. It was bright
with his blood yesterday. It seems probable
that he was killed by a member of the mid-Ulster
UVF gang led by the notorious King Rat ( see 
http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/0709/hom3.html )

    Mick McGoldrick was actually found in Aghagallon (Field of the standing
    stones...I think), 5 miles from Aghalee. He was definitely killed by a
    local UVF gang ordered by King Rat, several days before King Rat met
    with Trimble the M.P. for the area. Incidently Trimble has consistently
    refused to speak to terrorists....By these recent actions I assume that
    he is happy enough to speak to loyalist terrorists?
    
    Rgds
    Tom (Aghagallon resident)

     >He was definitely killed by a local UVF gang ordered by King Rat
    
    I believe you, but is there any proof/circumstantial evidence?
    
    BTW, Derry Trades Council made a fine statement against sectarianism
    and Orangeism during the Aprentice Boys hoohah. There was a small Unity
    demonstration in Derry, with participants from both sides of the River
    Foyle. Socialists who mobilised for it report that there was a good
    response in both "Loyalist" and "Nationalist" areas, although the
    turnout was small.
    
    There is room enough for Trimble and Taylor in the dustbin of history.   
    
    Kevin

    Re: .93
    
    Your reply reminded me of a frequently asked question.
    
    Would anybody in here care to clear up the matter of the real 
    name of Derry/Londonderry? Both county and city.
    
    If memory serves me correctly, a few years ago, the local council 
    declared that the name of the city was to be Derry. There was a degree
    of uproar about that: Nationalists would always say "Derry" and
    Unionists would always say "Londonderry" regardless of any so-called
    democratic decision on the name. (A dead giveaway in the relentless
    persuit of knowledge about one's kicking foot.. so to speak.)
    
    The BBC never adopted the name Derry, but at least for a while, I
    think ITV used Derry as the name. During the tense build-up to the
    recent marches, I heard both names used in the same news broadcast.
    
    Now, I come from Northern Ireland, the six counties -- call it what 
    you will -- and I'm confused.
    
    What is the proper name for the city? And what is the proper name for
    the county?
    
    John  

    My recollection is that when the gerrymandering of the then
    ("so-called":-)) Londonderry City Council (or whatever it was called)
    ended, the SDLP took over and voted to change the name to Derry. The
    county is still officially called Londonderry though, I think. It is
    one of those things some used to decide which tribe you belonged to.
    
    Who cares anyway. Its Wexford and Meath this year :-).
    
    Kevin

    Re: .95
    
    >> Who cares anyway. Its Wexford and Meath this year
           
    Do the folks in Derry know that yet? And are the folks in Wexford
    and Meath stupid enough to regard the imitation as flattery?
    
    I don't think so, but I think we should be told!
    
    jb!~                                                   

re .94. (what's the 'correct' name for Derry/Londonderry)
See .60

    Thanks..
    
    John

    Re .88: Sorry for the late reply, but are you really sure that the
    Connachta were �rainn? According to T.F. O'Rahilly (Early Irish History
    and Mythology), the Ulaidh were indeed �rainn, but the Connachta were
    Northern Goidels (i.e., the latest Celtic invaders of Ireland). Their
    name in fact derive from the name of Conn, the ancestor god of the
    Northern Goidels (the ancestor god of the Southern Goidels being
    Eoghan), and they gave it to the province of Connacht when they
    conquered it over the Laighin, who had themselves conquered it over the
    �rainn (not that any of these conquests was complete or involved a
    total eradication of the former dwellers, as Laighin, �rainn and even
    Cruithin tribes were to be found in early historic Connacht, even
    though they were subject -aitechtuatha- to the Goidelic tribes).
        			Denis.
    P.S. Please forgive my shaky gaelic spelling, I'm not at all a Gaelic
    scholar or even speaker, and I enter this reply from memory without any
    reference at hand.

    Re .60: Again sorry for the late reply. This is a great text text you
    entered there, but I wanted to correct one or two small nits:
    
    - Are you sure that it was Niall Naoighiallach's men who captured Saint
    Patrick? Most of this is legendary and I wouldn't swear that the name
    of the chief whose men captured Patrick is known for sure. It is also
    far from certain that Patrick came from Wales. He was Briton, that much
    is probable, but most of the hypothesis I've read on this subject make
    him come from North of Liverpool. Anyway these are at best reasonable
    educated guesses.
    
    - I seem to recall also that the other protagonist of the quarrel that
    led to the war of the book was Saint Finian, but I sure would not bet
    my life on it. Anyway, I can check it.
    
    -
> The first king of Scotland, Malcolm ( or Calum ) Ceann Mor,
> was thus of both Pictish and Gaelic blood.
    	Slight confusion here. Malcolm Canmore was not by far the first
    king of Scotland. He was the first who introduced the Normans in
    Scotland, by marrying a Norman princess, Margaret (daughter of Henry I
    probably, but I'm not sure from memory). Or was Margaret his mother? I
    can check that too. Anyway, it's more than probable that you meant
    Kenneth Mac Alpin here, the first king of the Scots of Dalriada to be
    also king of the Pictish kingdom, as his father Alpin had married a
    Pictish princess and inheritance was matrilineal in the Pictish
    society. I don't recall the dates of Kenneth, but he was the last of a
    long line of Dalriadic Scot kings. He was anyway largely posterior to
    Calum, and even if Calum encouraged Scoto-Pictish marriages (I'm not
    sure on that point), the marriage of Alpin came too long after Calum's
    time to call it an achievement of Calum's or to say that it was Calum
    who forged the alliance. Actually, the Scot and Pictish kingdoms had
    spent most of their time being at war with each other until they were
    unified by both falling to the same heir through different inheritance
    rules.
    		Denis.

    Re .100: I did a bit of checking yesterday night and have some
    precisions and one correction to bring to my reply .100.
    
    - The other protagonist of the book quarrel was indeed Saint Finian of
      Moville.
    
    - It was around 843 CE that Kenneth Mac Alpin unified the Scots and the
      Picts. As Calum was living in the sixth century there's a 3 century
      gap of Scoto-Pictish wars between him and Kenneth, a bit long to
      credit his policies for Kenneth's inheritance of the Pictish throne.
    
    - I was incorrect about the wife of Malcolm Canmore, Saint Margaret.
      She was not Norman, but English, being the sister of Edgar the
      Atheling and had been brought up in Hungary and England. This and
      Malcolm's repeated invasion of Northumbria caused a war with William
      the Conqueror, won by William, who took Duncan, son of the first
      marriage of Malcolm, as hostage in England, where he was thoroughly
      normanised. Duncan reigned for some years over Scotland as William II
      Rufus (son and successor of Willam the Conqueror)'s vassal before
      being killed by Malcom's brother Donald Ban. William then put Edgar,
      eldest surviving son of Malcolm and Margaret, on the Scottish throne
      in 1097. It was after Edgar was succeeded by his brother Alexander in
      1107 also as vassal of the king of England that came the marriage I
      mentionned in .100, when Alexander married an illegitimate daughter
      of Henry I Beauclerc, youngest son of William I and successor of
      William II. Henry I also married the sister of Alexander and Edgar.
      The successor of Alexander was his last surviving brother David I.
      It was during that time that Norman influence became prominent in
      Scotland.
    		Denis.