Conference tallis::celt

And for a recap:

.0 offers an activity for fellow CELTIC noters to share.
.1 gets incensed over percieved implications of .1
.2 stoops to personal abuse of the author of .2

In my book, it is fine to express opinions about ideas and events, but
personal abuse is completely uncalled for.  Of course, it is easier to
call someone a jerk than it is to write down "substantiated, proven events".

Now, I'd have liked to comment on the facts asserted in .2, but there are no 
facts there, simply an assertion that those who think as .1 does are "a little
short on the facts."  If the intent was merely to blow off steam or to get
emotional reactions from those who already "knee-jerk" in the same way,
that's fine, but why bother?  Why not let us know what you think distinguishes 
a political prisoner from a terrorist?  Here are the definitions I use:


Political prisoner: anyone who is imprisoned on account of political beliefs 
or the expression of those beliefs.

Nonpolitical prisoner: anyone who is guilty of a crime, other than holding 
or expressing a belief, and who is fairly tried and imprisoned for that crime.

Terrorist: anyone who advocates and carries out a campaign of destruction 
of private property and/or murder of civilians for a political purpose.


Now, I don't know what, if anything, the people mentioned in .0 are guilty of. 
But the IRA and INLA frequently label themselves as terrorist organizations 
(by my definition) by openly advocating, carrying out, and taking credit for
acts of destruction and murder against private citizens.  So, it is not too
unreasonable to suppose that people who are actually members of one of these
organizations (or their counterparts on the other side of the struggle)
are carrying out the activities of their organization, and are therefore
terrorists and/or murderers.  

Now, when a member of a terrorist organization is charged with a crime,
convicted, and imprisoned, you have to convince me of one of three things 
before I'll grant that that person is a political prisoner:

    1) He/she didn't do take part in the charged crime,
    2) He/she was only prosecuted because of political beliefs, or
    3) He/she was given a worse prison sentence because of those beliefs.

So which will it be?  Are you claiming these political prisoners were falsely 
convicted?  Are you claiming that they were unfairly prosecuted?  Are you
claiming their prison sentences or conditions are different from others who
have committed similar crimes (without political motives)?  Or do you feel
that murder is a valid expression of political opinion?

I'm willing to listen to facts and, if convinced, to change my views.  
Will I get a reasoned response?  Or will I just get a half-witty 
blast of hatefulness like .1 did?

	Larry

    I guess my original response was a little tactless.
     However I do strongly object to any sort of violence.
     I do not know of a single person in an Irish jail who is there
    because of a belief. 
     I dont think that collecting money for any organisation,
    terrorist or otherwise is a good use of this conference and
    I will try pretty hard to prevent it from being used to collect
    for the IRA.
      
    Rob
    

       I empathize with your position against violence, Rob. From all
    accounts, many of the people currently in jail in the North of 
    Ireland ARE there solely because they were "convicted" not by weight 
    of evidence, not by an open trial, with a jury of their peers, but 
    rather on the word (called in legal terms: hearsay) of A) paid police 
    informers, or B) people being interrogated (more than likely, under 
    torture - but let us use the euphemistic legalese,"under duress"). 
    In several trials recently over there, (one of which was reported on 
    "60 Minutes" last year), it has been proven that these "supergrasses" 
    as these informers are called, gave out names of people, not because 
    they advocate violence or because they belong to a paramilitary group, 
    but because of torture at the hands of their police captors. From what 
    I have read, some appear to have given out names just so they could
    get on this informer "dole" and relocation program. What is this to
    the victims of this blatant, unjust incarceration then? To me, it is 
    someone who is in jail solely for his/her beliefs!
       To the issue at hand, the banquet, this money goes to help the
    families of people who are in jail - despite British propaganda to
    the contrary. Look at the facts: it is well known that the British 
    government has requested the cooperation of the U.S. government, 
    in particular, the FBI and IRS to closely scrutinize the fund raising 
    activity of Irish groups in America. To date, (and since the early
    70's), there has been no evidence that the funds collected at these 
    banquets or gatherings are going to buy arms. Does this mean arms are 
    not bought with this money? I don't know. I don't wish to go down that 
    rat hole for the specific reason: If the FBI and IRS (with their
    minions of spies, agents and resources) can't prove they are, I
    certainly couldn't top that!
       There are more topics to discuss, which I would like to do with
    you outside of this conference. Let us continue this via vaxmail
    directly, before there are any more sophomoric attempts to bait
    the two of us into a running battle.
    
    Regards,
    
    Joe           

    Re .2   Thanks for coming to my defense, in the begining I felt that
            I had been given the Short End of the stick.
    
    Re .3   A very good response to a subject that usually gets folks
            blood a boiling. This, in turn , most always causes the thought
            process to go into complete shut-down.  Which then prevents
            otherwise intelligent communication from taking place. 
    
                                                 Thanks;
    
    Re .4   apology accepted (I read between the lines and came to the
            conclusion that your attack on me was caused by ristricted
            blood flow to the brain, a temporary condition caused by a
            state of high emotion I think it's known as Fight or Flight)
            
            Just for your information, there are more than 2,000 prisoners
            in Irish jails at the moment because of their beliefs. Of that
            number there are innocent people serving time.  The nearest 
            count is more than 100 but less than 500 that were convicted 
            on charges that, in this country (USA) would not qualify as 
            acceptable circumstantial evidence in order to warrant even
            a trial. See Soapbox 74.25 for some basic information on
            such a case. The reason for the #'s discrepancy is the
            inability to get some court documentation.  And, before you go 
            off on a tangent again.  You will notice that I have not once 
            referred to a religion. This is because both religious groups
            are affected.  Also something that I have not referred to is
            the IRA.   WHO THE HELL GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY ON THE NET
            THAT I COLLECT MONEY OR SUPPORT COLLECTING MONEY FOR THE
            IRA.  You really should try to get your facts straight before
            YOU ACCUSE ME OF USING THIS FILE TO COLLECT MONEY FOR ANY 
            ORGANIZATION political or non-political. You see I also do
            some work for a local childeren's home (I am trying to get
            them a P.C. to teach the kids a marketable skill anyone got an
            extra one around?).  All I wanted to accomplish was to announce
            a banquet.  It just happens to have a speaker that may or may
            not support a political viewpoint that you  may or may  not
            support.  It is also going to have a great meal and band.
            My intentions are the same the Banquet goes on.  By the
            way Rob I am more than willing to discuss the issues of
            N.I. with you on a objective non-emotional level.  We are
            all still able to learn from each other. My node is
            TPLVAX::Culbert 
    
                                    regards
                                     paddy
              

Thanks, Paddy & others, for some very thought provoking information - 
the best kind of provocation that there is.  For the future, does everyone 
realize you can always delete your own notes?  Much the best course of 
action when one regrets hasty words.  

For my part, I think I should have guessed about the informers - I have
a personal example.  Someone I know (no, that's not a euphemism for myself)
was tried on drug charges (and convicted to "time served waiting for trial")
with no more solid evidence than another prisoner who said "<first-name>
gave them to me" when asked by the police where he got his drugs.  Not even
a last name, and no physical evidence of any kind that my friend was
involved.  No, this wasn't the US or Ireland or England - it was Sweden.
And I'm not going to say "it couldn't happen here", I'm afraid it does.

Ah, well.

	Larry

PS - For me, "here" means Boston Massachusetts - I've often been mighty 
puzzled just where people are coming from.  The only thing I'm sure of
is that no one is actually writing from Wales - a pity, that.

    
    	First I wasnt really trying to apologise.
     	It just seemed more reasonable to say
    	"if you do this I'll try to stop it", than just plain
        "bullshit"
    	As for being called a jerk, well... Here's a quote from someone
    	I met in the Pig and Whistle in Cork (now gone).
    	"If you've got something to say against the &^% I'll take you
    	out and break your neck"
    	Same thought process and attitude to handle someone who disagrees
    with you.
    
    	When I was living in Cobh in 1970 a huge shipment of arms
    	were caught coming in from the QE2.  They had been purchased
    	in Boston, by a person who was very active in a group
    	collecting money for the dependant families of political 
    	prisoners.  I dont remember the date exactly but it was a pretty
    	huge selection of stuff so it should be fairly easy to look
    	up in your favourite library.
    
    	(it may not be the same organisation, but it sure sounded
    	familiar)
    
    	 As for the political prisoners. How about getting the name
    	of ONE, and we'll all do some research and find out why they
    	are in jail.  If it is simply for their beliefs then lets
    	get them out of there.
    

    RE: .0
    
    I believe that nearly everyone in the U.K. who would read your
    note would SURMISE that the proceeds would go towards a para-
    military organisation. I think it is commendable however that
    you have stated up front that such a speaker (who is also
    liable to get the 'blood a' boilin') will be in attendance.
    It allows those who have no wish hear her speak the choice of
    not attending. It is perhaps unfortunate that you plainly
    nailed your colours to the mast by the way in which you made
    your announcement.
    
    With references to paid informers; the use of such is in the
    decline with several of them (and their evidence) being wholly
    discredited by the British judiciary with the result that
    many recently accused have been released.
    
    I agree with Mr. Short's sentiments that Digital Equipment
    Corporation should not be used as a vehicle in any way for fund-
    raising for any terrorist organisation.
    
    Don H.

	Re. .4

	Rob, Nobody is collecting money in this conference, I would find
	it a bit hard to send money down the NET, and also it was not suggested
	that the money was being collected for the I.R.A.

	The families of people in prison have a right to live and in a free
	world people can collect money for whom or what they like. I take
	exception to your threats as I never like to hear people threatened.
	
	> You do not know of a single person in an Irish jail who is there
	> because of a belief

	There are lots of people in jail for no crime at all. As the song
	"The Men Behind the Wire" says "not for them a judge or jury or
	indeed a crime". Surergrasses, etc have condemned many an innocent
	person to prison. Do you really live in this world and do you really
	know anything about N.I. since the troubles. 

	Internment without trial.
	Judged without a jury.
	Strip Searching etc.

	I lived in N.I. for a while and visited the Catholic areas from
	time to time. Nothing but army and police barracks and frequent
	searches in bars for identity. One day in the space of 2 hours 3
	different army patrols fully armed came into the bar I was in. 
	I talked to young people and their attitude towards this, it was not 
	hope I found in their young voices but hate and sadness at what was 
	heppening around them from day to day.

	There is tons and tons of paper about various cases of miscarriage
	of justice. Sean Mc Bride the Nobel Peace Prize winner has asked for 
	justice for the many people who are 2 to 3 years awaiting trial
	without any substancial evidence.

	You find the names of the political prisioners as you seem to know
	all the facts and figures. You don't know the first thing about
	the political prisioners or about the recent troubles, if you did
	you would not sprout all this rubbish and threats. Why threaten people
	for exposing the facts about the situation.


    Re. .9
    
    	As previously stated in a conference, you do not have to
    	participate in a conference if you do not want to, you
    	do not have to read all notes. People in the U.K. have
    	a totally different attitude to freedom of speech and I
    	feel that any attack on .0 is ridiculace and is typical
    	of the British attitude. I see no fund raising and nothing
    	that offends anybody. Give people a break and stop always
    	quoting P/P everytime you don't like what you read. I am
    	sure that the intentions of Paddy were honourable and just 
    	get off your soapbox and as they say "Live and let Live".
    	
    	You quote that many have got off through the British judicial
    	system, no my man, through pressure from the people and world
    	oppinion and not the pharcical judicial system. What about the
    	Berminagham 6. Have they had justice, no. Will the years they
    	have spent incarcerated for a crime that they did not commit
    	be compensated for, no. To hell with your judicial system, it
    	is worse almost of that of the U.S.S.R. when it comes to Irish
    	people. Only Mc Kee and excellent journalism has exposed the
    	rottiness of your system and of its determination not to admit
    	it was wrong, totally wrong and has cost 6 people many of their
    	years and another died while in prison. 
    
    	
    

	Rene (Who trys to read the facts and knows from his own experiences
	what its all about. Not an expert but an interested Irishman, a
	nationalist you could say. I am not flaming only a little hot)
	

    Maybe we can get a glimpse of the whole problem by looking at some
    of the reactions to this note.  This woman who is to speak at the
    banquet happens to be the sister of a dead hunger-striker.  What
    is so bad about other people hearing what she has to say?  If you
    are not interested you don't have to go.  If you are genuinely
    interested in understanding the problem, maybe you could do worse
    than go along and *listen*?  
    
    Just imagine being labeled for 60 years as subversive etc etc and
    maybe you'll begin to understand the depth of the problem.
    
    --Dermot

    re.8
    Rob thanks for the offer to try to do something about the political
    prisoners that are incarcerated for their beliefs.  One that I am
    painfully aware of is my cousin  Mike Culbert serving a life sentence
    in the Maze for the killing of an RUC member.  The evidence against
    him was the testimony of two RUC detectives that say he admitted
    to it after being questioned for more than three stright days. 
    By stright days I mean constant questioning no sleep or breaks for
    him now we all know that most folks would be in tough shape after
    such an ordeal.  Now mind you Rob there was no other evidence submitted
    in court no physical evidence no witnesses not even a signed or
    tapyed confession.  Of course you know that he was not allowed a jury 
    because he was being tried for a terrorist act.  I'm quite sure the judge
    was a very impartial fellow being a man of the people so to speak.
    Mike was found guilty and sentenced to life.  He naturally appealed
    the findings.  At his appeal Amnesty International  was an observer
    and in their reports of 82 and 83 adopted him technically quoting
    his "strange conviction".  What even makes this a bit more strange is
    that his job before all this had happened was that of a social worker. 
    That sort of person usually tries to help people not kill them.  His 
    belief is that Ireland should be one country and not divided. He
    believes in equal treatment for all people. He wants a place where his 
    two sons can play with any child of their choosing and when they grow
    up to be able to get a good job and raise a family. He really only wants
    the same things that most of us want.  So Rob there is your one
    name Ihave plenty more if you want them.  
    
        As far as gunrunners and the like.  I'll never deny that it
    happens and yes Irish people do some of it.  The incident that comes
    to mind is the one with the Winter Hill gang just because a person
    has an Irish name doesn't mean that he is part of any organization.
    
        Some of the organizations I belong to have been given a bums
    steer by the press.  Don't believe all you read.  We are monitered
    constantly by the FBI for all sorts of criminal activities.  Never
    has a charge been made.  Now I know that some of you are thinking
    that we just haven't been caught yet.  Why can't you turn that thinking
    around and think that maybe, just maybe we haven't done anything
    wrong and really don't deserve the labels we have been given.  As
    for the money we collect,  Well it is all under the eyes of the
    IRS (another honorable government agency).  All the money is transfered
    to the Green Cross in Ireland for distribution.  
       Now I haven't said one time that there aren't some real S.O.B.'s
    around that deserve every thing they get.  But their childern do
    deserve at least a chance.  We try to help provide them with that
    chance.  
       My mother was convinced that I was a radical and hell bent on
    damnation that is, before she met a 15 year old that visited me
    last year and felt first hand the real affects on the children in
    the North of Ireland. 
       Hopefully you can all now see my true colors and that my intentions
    are honorable.
    
    A long but necessary reply. I feel sooooooooo much better now.
                                          
    

    
    re .3
    
    I would be very interested in 1 more definition from you with regard
    to this subject matter - what is a freedom fighter and how does
    a freedom fighter differ from a terrorist. References to Central
    America would be useful. 
    
    - Joe

    LEAPRECHAUNS ARE ALWAYS HOME FOR THIS DEBATE.
    
    Re some (that I've seen)
    Mr. Culbert's base note would appear to be entirely appropriate
    to this file. To try to close one's eyes to an aspect of Celtic
    culture, namely the violent response to the direct British interference
    in matters concerning Ireland, one would be guilty of that famous
    Irish (if not Celtic) penchant for ignoring a problem in the hope
    of it going away. I applaud the and support the proclaimation of
    all events that relate to Celtic activity in this file. Mr. Culbert's
    note falls into this category. 
       Obviously there are some among us who prefer to take a more "trendy"
    line in thinking, in the mistaken view that what is comfortable
    is probably correct. It is always much more difficult to see through
    the clouds of media hype, and the blatant manipulation that is done
    through subtle propaganda. Accepting the party line is always a
    dangerous path to take and is always characteristic of the knee-jerk
    response.
         On the subject of Terrorists, I too would think long and hard
    about the use of that particular label. Who are the terrorists in
    Sri Lanka to-day????. Have you taken the party line on that one
    yet ????
         Shall we refrain from calling certain types terrorist ? - e.g.
    if they wear a uniform of state. Do we call the South African police
    who shoot trade-unionists dead at a sit-in to clear a building,
    TERRORISTS. Have we ever labelled the thugs in uniform who operated
    the death camps as terrorists or have we used a slightly different
    label ? If we have was that label better or worse than "terrorist".
    The ability to LISTEN is the best defence against terrorism, for
    if governments listen and act according to their powers of logic
    having listened first, then most of the world's "terrorism" might
    not exist. Maybe I am one of the few that refuses to accept that
    outrageously abused propaganda term "terrorist" when applied by
    the offices of State or their often compliant fifth column the
    Press.
    
    Snake says good luck Pat.
    

    Re use of the word terrorist.
    
    I have stated in VNS Vogon news that it is the  I.R.A. and others
    who are fighting to rid the little country of Ireland of the last
    chains of an oppressive and unjust British system that has for
    centuries caused our people to suffer, emigrate and has seen fit
    to try and subjucate a people and it's language.
    
    The past is past but it is not totally forgotten. Our nation is
    a young nation when its comes to the origins of our independence
    fought and won in 1922.
    
    The British kept the 6 counties for purely economic reasons, that
    is a fact and not fiction. If you examine the industrial wealth
    of the 6 counties at the time of partition you will see that, that
    is why 3 counties were not included in the province of Ulster, they
    were poor counties and could be left to the Irish. Of the 6 counties
    3 currently are prodimately Catholic, Derry, Fermanagh and Armagh.
    
    The British have not only used force but poticially divided the
    counties of the 6 counties to return a minority in some cases as
    in Derry. The policy is called Gerrymandering.
    
    I become less and less tolerant when I see references from British
    people about N.I. that are not substanciated and expecially when
    they have'nt bothered to read the history of Ireland from the 1900's.
    They haven't lived in the Catholic ghettos, they haven't been humilated
    by Brit soldiers, their homes haven't been broken onto at 3 o' clock
    in the morning to search for a supposed Freedom Fighter.
    
    Don't call them "terrorists" because they are Freedom Fighters,
    look up the dictionary and you will see that the word "terrorist"
    cannot be used. The little island of Ireland is occupied by a foreign
    occupation force and that's a fact, so let's get the wording right.
    
    The British media used to use the word the I.R.A., not they use
    the word Irish Terrorists, maybe that is the fashion now-a-days
    or maybe Maggie the Hachet has forced them to use this word.
    
    I used to read "An Phoblacht" every week when I lived in Ireland
    and especially during the Hunger Strike which claimed the lives
    of some of our young Freedom Fighters. The British have been making
    mistakes in Ireland since the execution of the leaders of the 1916
    rising, and they are the best recruiters to the ranks of the Freedom
    movement. 
    
    "They can break our bodies but not our spirit". They Brits have
    mearly scrathed our skins. The Freedom movement will last until
    our country is united and then we can start to build a nation where
    peace and brotherhood reigns, but not until then.
    
    I cannot see how anybody would want to interefere with the rights
    of another person to offer an invitation to a night of Celtic music
    and a speach from the sisters of one of our dead maytrs who gave
    his life unselfishlessly so that his fellow prisioners could have
    the right to political status. 
    
    The bible says (Not exact quote, please forgive me) "There is no
    love greater than when a man who lays down his life for a friend(s)

    
    Saor Eire
    
    Rene

    Re: .15
    
    Concerning why Britain kept 6 counties:
    
    Economics did indeed play a good part in England's decision.
    I think that the North of Ireland was the shipbuilding capital of
    the world in the 1800's and early 1900's.  An industry too lucrative
    for England to give up.
    
    Another reason may have been England's fear of a completely independent
    island off its western shores, both from a militaristic view and
    political view.

At the risk of being castigated; of being called a "Brit" or
a "Brit-lover"; of being told I know nothing of the subject; 
of being told to p**s-off if I dont like the expressed 
sentiments, I will add my tuppence worth....

Note:	My comments are based on the original note and the 
	replies starting from .3. Not having the opportunity 
	to read .1 and .2, I can but guess at what might have 
	been said.

	Regarding the original note, I share Bobs concern
that some of the fundraising efforts carried out in Ireland
and abroad, in the name of prisoners, their families or
whatever, are used as a mechanism to divert funds to the
paramilitaries. Therefore, I steer clear of such events. I
would also consider it inappropriate for EASYnet or the the
EASYnet notes conferences to be used for such a purpose. (A
relavent extract from the Feb/March MGMT MEMO is attached). 

	Disagree with such sentiments if you wish, if you 
react by calling someone a "jerk", or suggest that they are 
temporarly insane, or whatever, then you are doing both 
yourself and your arguments a grave disservice.

	Let's all get our facts straight before we make wild 
accusations and hurl invictive at our fellow employees. We 
can all get passionate on our pet subjects, but the 
strength and impact of argument is inversely proportional to 
the number of personal attacks contained therein.

Yours etc,
Mike

========== EXTRACT FROM FEB/MARCH mgmt memo ================

Heading: POLICY OUTLINES PROPER USE OF COMPUTER RESOURCES

A new systems policy, Pproper Use of Digital Computers, 
Systems and Networks," has been instituted......
....
....
John Murphy, Corporate Employee Relations Programs manager, 
says that improper systems use includes transmitting 
offensive, harassing, and/or devaluing statements, 
developing and transmitting inappropriate graphics, or 
transmitting sexual or ethnic slurs or jokes. "In addition, 
systems cannot be used to solicit other employees, develop 
chain letters, communicate matters of private conviction or 
philosophy, permit unauthorized access, and so on, he says.
....
....
...

    Leaprechauns have been there.
    
    Re .17
    THose of us who have been wont to cruise the ole' Soapbox are fairly
    familiar with the corp. party line on the misuse of systems. Such
    experience has facilitated our development as noters to write so
    that we CAN be misconstrued, though not having actually breached
    the directives. I know that to be true of my own note and that this
    will bear up when its re-read. I may use challenging terms but not
    abusive ones, sarcasm yes, satire yes, but insult, no. I am fairly
    sure that the base note cannot in any way be contrary to the corp.
    directive, but it could be mis-interpreted, and it could be held
    up for criticism on an intuitive plain (e.g. We know what was written
    but sure don't we all know otherwise etc. etc., wink, wink, nudge,
    nudge). I merely hold the opinion that such reading into matters
    is not cricket, shall we say.
    
    Snake is up early to-day.
     

    
    
    	Would ye all go see note 140.14
    
    
    
    
    
    	keVin

    
    
    Makes sense Kevin, (how does one pronounce KeVin?? )
    
    However, seeing as I put forward the challenge, I will try to find
    out as much as possible about Michal Culbert.
     Most answers to questions of this sort are of the form of .10
     "seeing as you know everything you find em!"
    Try using that as a math proof sometime.
    
    There are very serious problems in the north of Ireland, and I've
    seen enough of them to know we cant fix them by sending each other
    nasty notes.
    
    	I once had the dubious honour of spending a night in Newry RUC
    barracks, and they were not friendly. Cork is not considered a
    friendly nation.  However when they couldnt find anything really
    wrong with me they gave me breakfast and told me to leave town.
    
    rob
    

re .13:
    
>    I would be very interested in 1 more definition from you with regard
>    to this subject matter - what is a freedom fighter and how does
>    a freedom fighter differ from a terrorist. References to Central
>    America would be useful. 

OK, I'll try.  But it's not easy - to many people the only difference
is whether you like the cause they are fighting for.  Note that I am
the only person who offered any definitions at all.


Political prisoner: anyone who is imprisoned on account of political beliefs 
or the expression of those beliefs.

Nonpolitical prisoner: anyone who is guilty of a crime, other than holding 
or expressing a belief, and who is fairly tried and imprisoned for that crime.

Terrorist: anyone who advocates and carries out a campaign of destruction 
of private property and/or killing of civilians for a political purpose.

Freedom fighter:  anyone who carries out a campaign to gain political power
by fighting the military forces of a country, inciting defiance of the
legal authority of the nation, committing acts of treason, etc.


So take Central America as an example.  To someone who sees the Contra
forces as primarily being engaged in fighting the military forces of
the tyranical communist government of Nicaragua, they are freedom
fighters.  To someone who sees the Contra forces as primarily being
engaged in killing civilians, destroying village health clinics and
the like, they are terrorists.  I have no intention of stating my
own opinion on this subject, nor should the moderator tolerate anyone
doing so - this is the CELTIC conference, not the CENTRAL-AMERICA conference.

Now, I did call the IRA terrorists in note .3.  I shouldn't have done that
because as I said above, to many people the term "terrorist" simply means
"I don't like them."  I was trying to use the term in a technical sense,
but I should have known that people would not take my words that way.
I should have confined myself to saying that the IRA is an organization 
that advocates and takes credit for (thus presumably carries out) a
campaign of destruction of private property and killing of civilians for 
a political purpose.  

That leaves one more question: is the IRA an organization of freedom fighters?
Well, the evidence I have suggests that they are.  The fact that they do
not confine their attacks to military targets does not mean that they are
not also freedom fighters, by my definition above.  Which aspect of their
actions is the most characteristic of what they are?  Beats me.  One this
is clear, though: those who speak in their favor see mostly the freedom
fighter side, and thos who speak against them see mostly the terroris side.


Finally, I should note that, even if one thinks of a group as a "terrorist
organization", it would be falacious to assume that every member is
therefore a terrorist.  The organization is responsible for the acts
carried out by the organization; the individual members are directly
responsible only for the acts they carry out.  So, for example, it is
possible for a person to have been a Nazi and not be evil.  In the early
days, it wasn't at all clear what the Nazis really stood for.  After all,
their stated goal was the rebuilding of a devastated Germany.  But as time
went on, their true nature became clear to anyone with eyes to see and 
ears to hear.  The Nazis only considered their own group to be human - any 
atrocity was acceptable when committed against members of other groups.

Members and sympathizers of the British military and of the IRA/INLA should 
ask themselves if they are really on the side of the angels, or if their
organization, whose goals they so firmly believe in, is sucumbing to
Nazi-ism.


	Enjoy,
	Larry