Conference tallis::celt

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                                   NEWS FLASH
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    Two boys have bluffed their way into Sinn Fein HQ in Belfast a few
    minutes ago, posing as service technicians or something.  
    
    When they got inside they produced guns and started shooting....
    
    ...........the report is that at least two dead
    
    Details are still sketchy.....
    
    paddy

    
It appears that the murders were carried out by an off duty member of the
RUC. Three people are dead and one man is critical in hospital after the
attack. The policeman then drove to the shores of Lough Neagh and killed 
himself. It seems he had been "depressed" after the recent death of a 
colleague in a domestic dispute. There doesen't appear to have been anybody 
else involved in the attack.
All on the day that President Robinson visited Belfast for the first visit
of a southern Head of State to the north.

    
    
    ..another masacre
    
    4 dead in Belfast...Bookie shop attacked in catholic area
    
    More dead in fermanagh...........
    
    

    
Yesterday two UFF (cover name for UDA) gunmen walked into a betting shop in a 
catholic area of Belfast and opened fire. One with a handgun and one with a 
rifle. There were approximately twenty people in the shop and there was no 
chance of escape. The gunmen kept firing until everyone had been shot. Five 
people are dead and the rest seriously injured. The UFF claim it was in 
retaliation for the IRA killing of eight protestant workmen in county Tyrone 
two weeks ago.

    And where were the police/army when all this was going on ? Keeping
    watch ?
    
    It's funny how the RUC seem to have so many nationalist informers yet
    they cannot get any loyalist informers to warn them of potential acts
    like; this despite the fact that they (the RUC) would be more likely to
    know (personally) many loyalists connected with the para-militarities.
    
    If I did'nt know better I would suspect the RUC/BA/SAS to be behind
    this type of sectarian murder. It's just amazing that they're always
    absent when these things take place in nationalist ghettos, yet at all
    other times they (RUC/BA) are crawling the streets harrasing people and
    searching houses. 
    
    Now I know what 'getting away with murder' really means !
    
    Tony.

    The RUC/BA/SAS let the UFF "get away" with the betting shop and didn't
    let the IRA "get away" with the murder of the workmen in the
    mini-bus????
    
    What papers do you read or where do you get your info from???  You need
    to open your eyes and mind to the whole picture or you will not be
    objective in your replies.
    
    No matter how many soldiers/police there are on the street or
    informants in the paramilitaries these random sectarian attacks will
    continue.  I'd like to see/hear a few constructive comments on how to
    stop them rather than simple criticism of RUC/BA/Protestant/Loyalist.
    
    		Brian.  50% Galwegian
    			100% Catholic
    

    
    Brian,
    
       There have been many,many,many instances where damage/harm has come
    to a catholic due to the inactivity of the powers responsible for keeping
    the peace.  
    
    One instance comes to mind.  
    
    The last time I was in Belfast a catholic was having his front door
    bashed in by a para-military group.  A call was made to the RUC office
    not more than 5 city blocks away.  It took the RUC 15 minutes to get
    there.  By that time the attack was over and a murder had taken place.
    I could have walked it in 5 minutes.  To compound the situation there
    are ALWAYS patrols out 'keeping the peace' in the area.
    So,  no papers involved, no blinkers, just plain facts.  
    
    Brian,  one observance I made about the folks in the Republic,  most of
    those I talked to had absolutly no idea what the hell was happening in
    the North.  As a matter of fact only one even knew what a rubber bullet
    looked like.  When I produced one they were all shocked at the size of
    it.
    
      You may be 50% Galwallien(sp) and 100% catholic but that does not
    make you an expert on the situation as it is today in Northern Irealnd.
    
    I am  100% Irish American  with
          50%  Roots (one generation away) in Belfast
     
     I go to Belfast every chance I get and call at least twice a month 
    
    
    paddy
    
    ps.  If you think the papers you get in the Republic give you the whole
    truth you are sadly mistaken.
    
    I'd like to hear your recommendations for a solution. 

    Paddy,
    
    I did not say this didn't happen.  The note I was replying to implied
    to me that the security forces let murder happen when a Loyalist
    paramilitary carries out the act but stops it when a
    Nationalist/Republican paramilitary carries out the murder.  This is
    simply not the case.
    
    In no way did I say you were blinkered in your responses or restricted
    by your distance from the events, I know from reading this conference
    for 2 or 3 years that you have been there and seen it.  However I do
    feel some of the comment in this notesfile is blinkered and biased to
    the side of the divide from which the noter originates and it is in
    part this attitude among others which will perpetuate the Troubles.
    
    Finally I live in England, was born in England and am proud of it but I
    am prouder of my Irish roots.  I too have been to Belfast and seen what
    the years of violence have done and spoken to the people, not just once
    but many times.
    
    		Brian.
    
    ps. I do not have clear cut solutions, does anybody ??  I have a few
    ideas - but the point I'm making is it is easy to idly criticise - it
    happens a lot in here - why not try to say something constructive and
    positive.

    Paddy,
    
    One thing I forgot - I have never claimed to be an expert in Northern
    Ireland affairs and never will but enjoy objective discussion on the
    subject using the knowledge I have.  I will not make any guesses as to
    whether you are or aren't an expert because apart from the fact that
    you are American I don't know a lot more about you.
    
    		Brian.
    
    

Re.                       <<< Note 163.8 by CHEFS::HOUSEB >>>
                                -< Blinkers !! >-

   > The RUC/BA/SAS let the UFF "get away" with the betting shop and didn't
   > let the IRA "get away" with the murder of the workmen in the
   > mini-bus????
    
    So they've caught them, have they ? That's good.
    
    
    >What papers do you read or where do you get your info from???  You need
    >to open your eyes and mind to the whole picture or you will not be
    >objective in your replies.
    
    I get my info from a lot of sources, NOT just the papers. The problem
    is that when people rely solely on the media for their information they
    do not get the whole picture. If you are relying on the English media
    you are further disadvantaged. I have friends who live/have lived in 
    NI who relate stories to me. These friends are from both sides of the 
    nationalist/loyalist divide.
    
    I will admit that my note (163.7) was biased/blinkered/one-sided, call
    it what you want. I was pretty angry when I wrote it but I stand by it.
    The BA/SAS/RUC get away with a lot of things which are so commonplace
    in NI today that they just don't get into the papers. When is the last
    time you read about innocent people being beaten up in police cells. I
    would guess when the B6 were released. Here's some news for you Brian,
    
    			***It happens EVERY day***.
    
    
    When is the last time you read about someone's house being broken into
    (i.e. door kicked down) and searched without due suspicion ? The
    floorboards being torn up, the wall panels being torn off. Nothing
    found and no compensation paid to clear up the mess ? Not for a long
    time I would guess. Here's some news for you Brian,
    
    			***It happens EVERY day***.
    
    There are many other atrocities carried out every day for the so called
    'Security Forces' in NI every day that don't make it into the papers.
    Everything from continual harrasement/street searches to murder.
    
    The point I would like to make is that the security forces are every
    bit as bad (and sometimes worse) as the para-militaries. Just because
    they are 'official' doesn't mean that they obey the law. A lot of these
    guys consider themselves above the law - and with official backing in
    the case of MI5/6/?
    
    Just don't believe everything you read !
    
    
    
    You're right when you say that it's easy to sit idly by and criticise.
    I don't have any magic solution to the problem. I wish I did. There is
    however one truism :
    
    There will never be peace in Ireland while the border remains.
               =====
    
    
    Tony.
    
    	100% Dubliner (although now resident in Australia)
    	   % religion - Doesn't really matter.
    

    Tony,
    
    As I said to Paddy, I don't disagree with you that the "house
    searching" ie. ripping up of floor boards etc etc. goes on, all I was
    doing was questioning the reasoning behind your first note - I think we
    have agreed on most points now.
    
    I think you misunderstood the tone of the first point I made.  All I
    was saying that the fact that the RUC/BA never stopped the betting shop
    murders was no different to them not stopping the IRA murders - I think
    it was a bad example to use to get across that the security forces are
    discriminating against Catholics.
    
    As you guys say - I don't just use my local press for news - I have
    spoken to Belfast people, I have spoken to British soldiers who have
    served in the North, I read Irish papers and I speak to friends and
    relatives in Ireland - as you see a broad range of views.
    
    		Brian.
                      

  Brian,

    The point that was being made (I think) is, the norm is for nationalists 
    not to be protected against paramilitary attacks in any sort of speedy
    manner(if at all).  
    
    That is to say the protection is reactive vs proactive.  There is usually 
    the loud sound of feet dragging when an attack occurs against the 
    nationalists community.  This is not by any means the exception it is the 
    rule.  

    You have been to Belfast many times so you know I speak the truth.  If you 
    doubt this I can send you a copy of the "Human Rights In Northern Ireland",
    A Helsinki Watch Report.  And I can send you 1991 Amnesty International 
    "Report on Northern Ireland".  The facts speak for themselves.

    I guess I jumped to conclusions when you made the reference to being 
    'blinkered'.  I thought you were referring to the yanks in general in this 
    file. 

    I think you will find that some of the 'active' Yanks in here have been to 
    Northern Ireland many times and speak from experience.

    I am glad that you are proud of living in England and being born there.
    I've been there several times and enjoyed myself.  

    I do have a serious problem with the governmental/judicial system set up in 
    Northern Ireland though.  And you being a bright individual must certainly 
    have the same views(maybe not though). 

    One of the reasons you probably won't find much participation here in 
    suggested solutions is because the only people that can solve it are the 
    people that live there.  Not the people in the U.S., not the people in 
    England, only the people in Ireland can solve the problems there.  

    If you have followed this file for those years you must know I am actively 
    and politically involved in the efforts of this country to SUPPORT a 
    solution NOT create one.  

    One thing I find very sad about the present efforts to get the talks going 
    again.  Is that again Sinn Fein will not be of the particiants.  I learned 
    long ago in order to successfully institute MAJOR change all affected 
    parties MUST be represented.  This process takes longer, as a rule but, 
    also as a rule increases the probibility of success. 

    If Sinn Fein isn't involved then they (the talks) may very well be doomed.  
    Without all major parties involved, the talks, and any outcome of the talks
    are at risk from the start.  It is like trying to put a 3 dimensional 
    puzzle together with some of the pieces missing.

    You talk about something constructive and positive.... 

    Give the Nationalists the same rights and treatment the Loyalists get for 
    starters. That will not happen easily because of the class conscience 
    society.  
    
    For the most part the Loyalists have it made.  They have the good jobs 
    just ask them in Shorts. They don't want to give up the good life, and who
    could blame them.  So one issue is, how to get the nationalist community 
    back to work. 

    When you drive through Belfast you can't help but notice all the major 
    factories are in the Loyalist areas.  One factory, Ford, is in West 
    Belfast.  
    Any guesses why it's like that?  Government sponsored tax incentives for a 
    starter?. 
   

    Start a true integration of the housing estates.  Not the half hearted crap 
    that has been going on for the past 10 years.  This will lead to a movement 
    towards school integration, not right away mind you, but a slow steady 
    movement.

    Get the Church (all of them) out of government.

    Evaluate the possibility of the creation of a coalition government and 
    don't let the bullshit that killed this effort in 1973? happen again.

    Have the UK rescind it's UN declaration of 1960(?) that this is an internal 
    issue. This being done announce a phased withdrawal of the troops and have 
    those troops replaced with a "real" peace keeping force from the UN.

    Insure the party Sinn Fein is included in any and all talks.  

    All paramilitary groups must announce a cease fire.

    MAJOR economic investment must be made in the area (Conway Mills) to get 
    people back to work.

    That is a mouthful and anyone can shoot holes through any one of them.
    
    But what it all boils down to in my mind is:  get the people back to work,
    treat everyone as equals and more than half the battle is won. 

    paddy



    PS Brian I think the only experts on Northern Ireland are those living 
    there. 
   
    And then I have my doubts about them.  Sorta follows the old saying..... 

          They can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.

    Not doubting any of the points made, but if it's not too much trouble I
    wouldn't mind a copy of the documents you mentioned.
    
    		Brian.

    
    	shall i paddy, or will you?
    
    	i have the copies here with me now.

    
    Go ahead Denise......  
    
    I don't dare say no....8*)
    
    paddy

    Thanks, I look forward to some interesting reading.
    
    		Brian.

    
    	i'll have them in the mail on monday morning, brian.
    
    	paddy, behave....i think its genuine interest.

    PADDY,
    
    I would also like a copy of the documents mentioned, if that's
    possible. 
    
    Thanks in advance Կ�
    		       -
    Gerry

    
    	he did address it to PADDY, ::CULBERT...