Conference tallis::celt

    
    I think that IRA support in America will depend on whether or not
    Congress allows IRA contributions to be tax deductible.
    
    I couldn't help it. The divil made me do it.

    You ask the question what is the IRA nowadays. It is still the defender
    of the catholic gettos in case of an attack by protestant militants.
    
    They are not linked to the communist block. Some of the break away
    groups have communist ideas and ideoligies but they are not communists
    in the true sense as we know it.
    
    I remember in school in the late 60's that groups of students not
    from our school who were communists were pelted with rotten eggs,
    Tomatoes etc. Irish people in general do not support any communist
    group or party, a candidate in a election from the communist party
    might be lucky to get 100 votes.
    
    There are the provos, officials (Stickies), I.N.L.A. etc.
    
    I think that without them the system would not have changed in Norther
    Ireland. I also think that without them that the catholic gettos
    would be wiped out by the protestant militants.
    
    I don't know of their ties to Yank organizations but I know that
    many rich families have and still support them.
    
    Rene

    The Western press always links the IRA with communists or leftest
    idealogy, but this is not true.  Just read AP news on VTX and every
    last sentence about the IRA will read "... the mainly Catholic IRA
    is waging a guerilla war to unite the overwhelmingly protestant
    Northern Ireland with the Republic under a <LEFTIST, COMMUNIST>
    administration."  The press does this in order to downplay the IRA
    and encourage people from western nations not to contribute to the
    IRA.  The majority of the people in the IRA do not have communist
    leanings, I would call them social democrats.  Their links, however,
    are with communist/fascist nations, i.e. Libya, Syria, eastern block
    countries Checkoslovakia, E. Germany, etc...  These countries purchase
    and supply weapons for the IRA.  Only a few boatloads come from
    the US, and the majority of these get stopped by the time they reach
    the Irish coast (i.e. what's a tugboat doing 200 miles off the coast
    of Kerry?).
    
    GD

    They are also the coldblooded murderers of men, women and children
    who have caused untold misery in their bloody campaign against the
    "British", whenever and wherever they strike in their cowardly fashion
    eg. planting bombs in the heart of London at peak shopping periods
    around Christmas time, and planting bombs in public houses in Northern
    Ireland, to mention but a few. They have made all peaceloving Irish
    people ashamed to be associated with them.
    
    
    Gerry. (100% Irish)
     

    In recent years they have mainly kit military targets. Don't forget
    that the British have used this type of terrorism for many years.
    
    
    Rene

    Many people however make a dinstiction between the current IRA and the
    old IRA. It appears that  the majority of people in the republic look
    down upon the current IRA, citing their ruthlessness at which they murder
    indiscriminate people.  Also, the South has its own economic problems
    to deal with.  I think, too, that if one took a poll in NI the majority
    of the citizens (even Catholic) would probably want to remain part
    of the UK. The welfare benefits are much greater than in the republic.

    It's a very touchy subject talking about NI because everyone has their own
    opinion.  I'm still trying to form mine but enjoy discussing ideas.
    I think, though, that the western press downplays the problems in NI
    for more interesting topics of apartheid in South Africa or hostages
    in Lebanon.  Too bad.

    One upbeat idea though is integrating private primary schools in NI.
    There was a story in Sunday's Boston Globe of a few such schools.
    I think there are about 5 such schools which have roughly equal
    share of Protestant and Catholic students.  The math and science
    curriculum is no problem.  The difficult part is teaching history
    (Battle of Boyne, e.g.) and teaching religion.  The students can
    take separate religion classes and (I think) the history part is
    watered down.  One offshoot of this is that children make friends
    with the other side.  Their parents who would have thought never to
    cross the other side of town, now are taking their children to
    birthday parties and such, thus allowing them to make friends too.
    Unfortunately, the government doesn't support them as well as public
    schools, and the Catholic Church has renounced them too.

    Cheers,
    GD

    	Re .6
    >Many people however make a distinction between the current IRA
    >and the old IRA.
     
    	Surprise, surprise.  You should remember that the old IRA (ie
    pre-1922) was founded (as the Fenians) when Ireland had no legitimate
    government, being then part of the wonderful British Empire (as
    seen on TV).  There was then no legitimate representative of the
    Irish people.  In the elections after the end of WWI, the Sinn Fein
    party (version 1.0) campaigned on an independence ticket, and, winning
    a majority, set up a secessionist assembly (The first Dail Eireann)
    	The IRA then nominally was under the democratic control of the
    Dail.  After the Anglo-Irish treaty was ratified by the Dail, those
    elements in the IRA who opposed it organised an Anti-Treaty force,
    which was eventually suppressed, bloodily (although not as bloodily
    as some civil wars-compared to America or Spain it was positively
    mild) by the government forces, which represented, you remember,
    the democratic majority.
    	This IRA was the predecessor of the modern Provos, through a
    number of different updates.  My point then is that a legitimate,
    democratic state exists, and the IRA support within it is tiny.
    Even the late Mr. de Valera, our great national statesman,(everyone
    says it so it must be false) entered the Dail with his FF party,
    after looking into his heart, thus taking part in the democratic
    process.
    	The IRA have until recently got around this awkward fact by
    not "recognising" the 26-county state.  Therefore since by their
    reckoning there is no legitimate Irish government they are going
    to fight until there is one, unifying Catholic, Protestant and
    Dissenter under the common name of cadaver.
    	However, recently, the IRA, or rather Sinn Fein, have decided
    to enter elections and take their seats after all.  Apparently they
    recognised Dail Eireann after someone showed them a picture.  How
    they reconcile this with their military activities you'll have to
    take up with them
    	It's rather awkward condemning the Provies because of their
    "campaign of violence".  Pub bombings, kneecappings etc are horrific
    but modern history shows that equally or more atrocious acts when
    committed by men in uniform obeying other men who represent a
    legitimate "State" are not bad things at all.  Far more innocent civilians
    were killed in one night in Dresden or Hiroshima then in twenty
    years in the 6 counties.  When the president does it, then it's
    not a crime (R. Nixon).  Civilised people have frequently resorted
    to terrorism to achieve their ends when they thought they could
    get away with it.  But I suppose now that RR has eliminated those
    dangerous Libyan terrorist infants this kind of thing is in the
    past, and we can all unite against those wild terror-thugs.  

    Leaprechauns know their stuff.
    
    Some history for the readership.
    When Ireland was still part of the United kingdom (until 1922),
    there were elections in Ireland each time there was a British election.
    This practice was in place since at least 1800 (Act of Union). There
    was a very significant number of "Irish" members of Parliament.
    These Irish members were often in the balance of power position.
    Before WWI the years of lobbying by those irish members had obtained
    Home Rule for the island of Ireland (a form of self government).
    WWI intervened (as did a threatened Ulster loyalist uprising and
    a mutiny by british officers in Ireland). During WWI a bunch of
    idealists rebelled in Dublin in 1916. THey were a mixed bag of
    idealists, poets, gaelic revivalists, and socialists. The British
    put down this rebellion and blamed (in error at the time) a new
    separatist grouping called Sinn Fein (founded 1910). The blaming
    of the uprising on Sinn Fein (some of its members were involved
    but they were a small group), backfired on the British in wake of
    the executions of the 1916 rebellion leaders. The people were outraged,
    and they flocked to the rallys of Sinn Fein (the grateful but unwitting
    perpetrators of the recent uprising). In 1918 there was a by-election
    in Co. Clare and the Sinn Fein canditate swept the seat in a landslide.
    The winner was E. DeValera (an american citizen who led the last
    group to surrendur in the uprising and escaped execution on his
    nationality). This landslide created a buzz throughout the country
    and in the following year (1919) when the British Parliament was
    dissolved, Sinn Fein went to the Irish people (all over the island)
    on a policy of seperation from Britain (the ante was upped, Home
    Rule was no longer enough). In the election of 1919 Sinn Fein won
    over 80% of the seats. This was interpeted as a democratic expression
    for Irish independence. Sinn Fein were extremely strong now, so
    they refused to take their seats in Westminster but set up their
    own parliament (the Dail) in Dublin. They created their own government
    departments (including defence), and established the army of new
    dail as the IRA (Irish Republican Army). On that very day at a place
    called soloheadbeg in Co. Tipperary The first shots in the War of
    Independence were fired by a man called Dan Breen (died in the sixties
    after many years in political life). The years 1919 to late 1921
    mark a period of El Salvadore-like warfare in Ireland, but there
    was a strong undercurrent of political unity of purpose under E.
    De Valera (Sinn Fein president) which the British could not break
    by force of arms. In 1922 the British negotiated a treaty with Sinn
    Fein (who sent its negotiators but not its leader). The treaty terms
    were partitionist in that they maintained British authority in that
    part of the island where the 20% pro British votes were cast in
    previous election of 1919. 
          The Dail was divided by the treaty and great gaps in the
    political unity developed. De Valera who had not negotiated the
    treaty was against its ratification, his brilliant Army Chief of
    Staff (Michael Collins) was for acceptance. A plebiscite on the
    issue was never put to the people and the division in the Dail on
    the matter was reflected in the public (even to this day). When
    the issue of acceptance was put to the Dail it was carried by a
    majority of two votes (the narrowest margin). E. De Valera and his
    supporters withdrew from the Dail. Upon this withdrawal the remaining
    Sinn Fein members voted in a Provisional government. Meanwhile the
    other Sinn Fein deputies expelled the pro-treaty memebers from Sinn
    Fein. W.T. Cosgrove the leading pro-treaty politician stared a new
    party called Cummann na nGeahdal (community of Irishmen), and his
    followers were the ex Sinn Feiners. So we now have arrived at the
    first split in Sinn Fein. 
          Some of De Valera's more aggressive followers occupyied the
    Four COurts building (a la 1916) in a gesture of uprising against
    the new provisional government. Michael Collins promptly took posession
    of British artillary and reduced the occupyied buildings to a rubble
    (although you wouldn't think that to look at them today). The rebels
    of the Four Courts were arrested upon surrendur and locked up in
    jail. Some time shortly afterwards a pro-treaty member of the Dail
    (as set up by W.T. Cosgrove) was assinated on the steps of Wynn's
    hotel in Dublin by anti-treaty Sinn Feiners. The response of the
    pro treaty side was an immediate sitting of the cabinet of the
    provisional government to consider the events. At this meeting the
    minister for justice proposed the execution of four jailed Sinn
    Feiners as a reprisal (not a lot of justice in this proposal you'll
    agree). The cabinet accepted this and the next morning four prisioners
    were shot (one for each province). They were Dick Barrett, Joe McKelvey
    Liam Mellowes, and Rory O'Connor (he had been best man at the wedding
    of the man who signed his death warrant- kevin Boland). These men
    were shot for another's crime, and without a trial. There was outrage
    in Ireland that only served to deepen the division in the people,
    and the Irish civil war was underway.
        De Valera could never win the civil war without assistance as
    the pro treaty side had international recognition. He Surrendured
    and was imprisoned for two years. Upon release De Valera went back
    to his Sinn Fein party and argued for political opposition to the
    treaty within the Dail (which was not now recognised as legitimate
    by Sinn Fein who deemed it to have been an artifice created by the
    treaty). Sinn Fein was now at a crossroads, and since its executive
    would not countenance political recognition of the Dail, De Valera
    left to form a new party. Now we have arrived at the second split
    in Sinn Fein.
         When De Valera left (1924), he formed a party called Fianna
    Fail (pro Feeanna Fawl), and most of the membership of Sinn Fein
    followed him. THis left Sinn Fein (and its army - the IRA) on the
    fringes of mainstream politics in Ireland. So Sinn Fein was now
    reduced to a shadow of its former greatness, though it still protested
    its own legitimacy as the voice of Irish separatist thinking. In
    the Republic of Ireland Sinn Fein was now shrunken down and also
    in the Six County (British) area, though possibly much less so,
    as many of its followers there were still under British rule.
        In 1969 the problems of the North of Ireland exploded once more
    and the IRA and Sinn Fein were caught napping and looked totally
    disorganised and inept. But by 1971 things were happening and changes
    had taken place within Sinn Fein also in the intervening 50 years.
    There were now some socialist elements within Sinn Fein. THere was
    tension between these socialists and the more traditionalist Sinn
    Fein followers on the response to British repression of the civil
    rights movement. We now arrive at the third split within Sinn Fein.
        In 1972 the socialists were pushed out of Sinn Fein which was
    reconstructed as Official Sinn Fein (socialist) and Provisional
    Sinn Fein (Provos). Since 1972 Official Sinn Fein has had its
    disgruntled militants who were unhappy at the lack of action against
    the British. Official Sinn Fein renamed itself "The Workers Party"
    and it entered politics on both sides of the border on socialist
    policies, it has two members in the Dail. Most of that movements
    political succes has been in the Republic, with little or no success
    in the North.
        The Provo faction has become the most active IRA organisation
    and its political wing no longer uses the prefix Provisional. So
    we are back to Sinn Fein under the leadership of Gerry Adams M.P.
    (who does not take his seat in Westminster). THis Sinn Fein group
    has recently decided to enter politics in the Republic (abandoning
    its abstentionist policy towards the Dail). Sinn Fein has canditates
    in some constituencies in this election. The decision to enter the
    Dail if elected has caused further division in this traditionalist
    Sinn Fein organisation whose southern membership are unhappy with
    this departure from the old Sinn Fein ideal of non-recognition of
    the Dail. There is a newer though much smaller group called Republican
    Sinn Fein, who have hived off as a result. 
         Meanwhile there has been a very militant and ultra left wing
    splinter from all post 1972 Sinn Fein houses, called the INLA (Irish
    National Liberation Army). This group is small but beligerant and
    quite vicious, and are right now murdering each other with great
    alacrity over some internal spleen.
    
    There you have it to the best of my powers of recollection and keyboard
    skills. So if you want to follow that maze of intrigue, I hope I
    wasn't too boring.
    
    Snake gets the bug now and then.
    

    Doing a little arithmetic 2500 deaths in NI for a population of
    1.5 million would compare to a little over 400,000 deaths in the US.
    
    This is comparable to 7 times more US deaths than Vietnam caused, or
    more comparable to the deaths caused by the civil war.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    My grandmother's brother, now deceased, had very interesting stories
    about the old IRA - the trap door in the foyer of his house that
    went to a secret basement to house the fugitives, being imprisoned
    on Spike Island across from Cobh for two years, and stories of English
    house to house searches.
    
    It's interesting to note too, that when my grandmother came to the US,
    she told the family not to associate with certain other Irish in the US
    - those who "ratted" to the English.  There were many so called
    "Irish traitors" who came to the US to escape their own persecution
    in Ireland.

    
    I for one dont think much of the IRA.  Seeing as there is no (or
    little) public support for their ideals they have to resort to
    robbing banks or collecting in Boston bars to get funding.
     Almost no one will vote for their official candidates so they
    resort to bombing and violance to get tattention.
    
     In short they are terrorists in the fullest sense of the word
    
     Rob - (100% irish)
    

re .5:    "In recent years they have mainly hit military targets."

Boston Globe, August 17, 1986:

  Belfast - In recent weeks, garbage has begun to pile up outside some
police stations in Northern Ireland... 
  The reason is a new and ominous warning by the Provisional Irish 
Republican Army that it will regard workers who provide services for
the police and the army as "part of the war machine" of the British
government.
  The IRA expanded its list of "legitimate targets" to such occupations
as caterers, telephone workers, cleaners, and vending machine suppliers.
  On July 30, the IRA murdered John Kyle, a Protestant building contractor,
who, it said, had been performing work for the security forces.  Kyle was
the fifth such victim within a year.
  The Ulster Freedom Fighters, a cover name for the Ulster Defense
Association - Nothern Ireland's largest Protestant paramilitary group -
has responded to the IRA threat with a threat of its own, against
Catholics who work in Protestant areas... It said that the organization's
list of "legitimate targets" now included all those who supported the IRA.

Re. .10
    
    Rob,
    
    If the I.R.A. did not have public support, where would they hide
    out and why are they so successful in disappearing into thin air
    after attacks on the military, I will tell you why, because they
    have public support.
    
    The old I.R.A. had to get money from America to fight for Irish
    freedom, if they hadn't, Ireland might not be free today so raising
    money in Boston pubs does not seem wrong to me.
    
    People do vote for them. During the Hunger Strike 2 of them got
    elected to Westminister and they did not do too badly in the Republic
    during this period. People vote for Sinn Fein, I do and in a democracy
    people vote sometimes parties do not do so well as others but don't
    say that no one votes for them.
    
    Please study their recent history from 1969 and then we can talk
    but don't label them terrorists for fighting to rid Ireland of the
    last remnants of Brit rule. Is the word "terrorist" the fashion
    now-a-days or something, because they are Freedom Fighters trying
    to get rid of a foreign force of occupation.
    
    
    Rene (100% Irish and a nationalist)

    
    There is one fact that is undeniable:
    
    People are being murdered, you may call it what you want but it
    does not change the crime. Anyone who kills others in an effort to 
    promote his or her ideals is a terrorist. This applies to the 
    Protestants and British as well as the IRA, but to label it as
    freedom fighting or any other such 'noble' act is out-and-out
    horseshit. The cause may or may not be worth supporting but I find
    it interesting that such a devoutly religious people conveniently
    choose to ignore the Commandment- "Thou shalt not kill"
    Let's call a spade a spade.
    
                                         Steve Muldoon (you read it
                                                         right)
    
      BTW - My ancestry comes from both sides of the line:
              Grandfather- Mayo, Roman Catholic
              Grandmother- Derry, Protestant  

    Re .12	Please explain, in words of one syllable, how murderering
    members of the UDA, putatively innocent bystanders in pubs, shops
    and similar places is going to rid NI of Brit. rule.
    
    I can understand UDA retaliation to having their people killed and
    I might accept an arguement that if they keep it up long enough
    the killings will stop ( I do not condone or even like the approach
    but I must admit that it has a chance of working ).
    
    My problem is that I see no relationship between what the Provos
    are doing and what they claim to want to get out of it.
    
    Nigel
    

    
    
    IRA = KILLING PEOPLE
         
    KILLING PEOPLE = WRONG
    
    ERGO:
     
        IRA = WRONG
    
                         Arguments to the contrary, ..... 
                         Please go away and kill yourself.
                   
      Innocent bystander who was lucky not to get killed by the 1984
      Hyde Park Bomb.
      

    			YET ANOTHER OPINION
    
    I don't know how many people who have added to this conference
    are from Northern Ireland originally. I come from South Armagh
    (Bandit Country) in N.I. and moved to London a year and a half
    ago. 
    
    What should be explained is that many people in the IRA get
    involved without having any real conception of exactly what
    sort of organisation they have joined. Where I lived it was well
    known who the 'BIG BOYS' were (i.e men with influence).They
    however were never 'lifted' ( taken for questioning by the
    British soldiers) or jailed. These people were inclined to
    feed young, easily influenced people with propoganda about
    how the Irish have always been suppressed by the British. Yes
    it did happen. But to kill innocent and 'legitimate' targets 
    does not and will not solve the problems there.
    
    If you lived in N.I. you would know that many of these supporters
    for a united Ireland cannot speak Irish, know little or nothing
    of Irish culture, poetry, dance etc.
    
    I am proud to be Irish and can say that I feel the IRA have never
    done anything for Ireland that I could consider just or right.
    They promote bitterness and hatred. They are not alone - add to
    that the UVF, INLA etc.
    
    There are many social and economic problems in N.I. What makes me
    sad is that anytime a CATHOLIC, whom the IRA are supposed to fight
    for, builds a profitable business they have to pay protection money.
    When the hunger strike was on it was Catholics who could not get
    to school as roads were all blocked. I have seen a neighbour maimed
    for life because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. 
    
    If people understood what the IRA and all such groups in N.I. are
    less support would be given from abroad.
    
    Teresa.    

     Re .16
    
       Spoken like an enlightened person, I congratulate you on seeing
       (sadly, first hand by the sound of it) the true nature of the
       "struggle" which in fact is promoted by those who claim to attempt 
       to stop it!!

                    Chris H
       

    Leaprechauns were close to it too.
    
    Dublin May 15 1974 Parnell St. 100 yards away 25 minutes later.
    BOOOOOOMMMMM.
    I was lucky.
    
    Re .15
    
    British Army/Police = Killing people
    Killing people = wrong
    IPSO FACTO BRITISH ARMY/POLICE = WRONG
    
    Contrary arguments  please go away and shut up.
    
    Your stance is contemptuous of the right of an individual to put
    their case.
    
    Re. IRA violence --- I'll be very clear IT IS MURDER. IT IS AN
    IRRATIONAL RESPONSE TO AN EVIL INJUSTICE.
    
    Britain is NOT the arbitrer of the Irish peace, and she can never
    be such. Yet Britain insists on being just that. GET OUT or at least
    commit to becomming a participant and join in the process of selecting
    another arbitrator.
    
    Until you can accept that fact, you will always be blinded by the
    violence (whosoever perpetrates it). N.I. IS a war zone.
    
    The recent election in N.I. resulted in a 37% vote for unity with
    the republic (up 3% on the last time). The writing is on the wall,
    only twenty more years or so and the majority will vote to leave
    the union, what plans have you for that day?????
    
    Snake asks important questions, but I'm not expecting class answers.
    
    

    
    re.18
    
       I'm sorry.......
            I seem to have mathematics wrong here, I was always under
    the impression that 37% out of 100% was a MINORITY, perhaps I'm
    wrong, I don't know. I can wait 20 years to see what happens, can
    you say that for the people who are going to get killled over that
    period?? 
    
    The IRA are trying to use a democratic system to get SF members
    elected, then they decide that they will commit acts that are patently
    AGAINST the democratic mojority.
    
    If you have ANY argument that stands up in a democratic society,
    please tell me, so far I have seen nothing to suggest that the IRA
    have one.
    
                        Chris H
    

re: .15                   -< Simplistic View >-
    
    Appropriately titled!
    
re: .16
    
    >South Armagh (bandit country)
    
    Does that mean you are a bandit then?

    Leaprechauns know democracy.
    
    Re .19
    Northern Ireland has a 37% anti Union vote : IPSO FACTO there may
    be a 63% pro Union vote. The Unionist vote recently was 56%. Very
    soon your statistical knowledge will come to terms with the
    understanding that growth in the anti-Union vote from 37% to 51%
    is a mere 14-14 percentage points. It should also be very obvious
    to you that to grow from 27% to 37% takes MUCH longer than to grow
    from 37% to 51%, and the former was accomplished in the space of
    thirty years.
    Now I will point out something to you. Northern Ireland is NOT a
    democracy. It is a political artifice, so created to ESTABLISH a
    pro-Union majority in a particular piece of geography. Your reference
    to democratic majorities does not apply to this failed "statelet"
    THe island of Ireland is a political whole. People here tend to
    see it as such (you'll forgive us that treacherous heresy ?).
    We are an island that will work out our own solutions to OUR OWN
    problems. We are civilised and brilliantly well educated. I could
    remark otherwise about your own particular country where ORGANISATION
    has been touted about by your lords and masters as "civilisation"
    for centuries now. You live in a country that says it has the mother
    of Parliaments, when in actual fact democracy did not exist until
    the abolition of the veto in the House of Lords in 1912, welcome
    to democracy, your pedigree in that proud institution is no longer
    than our own.
        You live in a country that would be embarrased if it had to
    write down its constitution. Feudalism is a sick joke today, but
    its the fashion in Britain. I could just see it now :
       The monarch of Great Britain is the deemed to be the rightful
       owner of the people of Great Britain. Loyalty to the monarch
       is a prerequisite and something    which no subject shall be
       permitted to retain unto themselves. The crown shall regulate
       society as the crown sees fit, in manner of pecking orders, to
       whit; Earls, Dukes, Lords, Baronets, and Knights of the realm.
       etc. etc. etc.
    It would be the most ridiculous piece of prose ever penned, it would
    be the greatest insult to the individual and rights of the individual
    in the history of the written word.
    
    I'll take lectures in democracy from those whose qualifications
    extend beyond the bounded confines of feudalism.
    
    Snake knows more about the real world.
    

    If you believe that you'll believe anything.
    
    The way to solve the problem in Northern Ireland, caused by the
    British but now abhored by all the people I know, is not to write
    such a lot of crap about Britain.
    
    Phillip
    A very civilised Englishman with extreme sympathies for the Republican
    cause but no time for nationalistic banalities. Sorry, Snake, but
    you disappointed me this time.

    Leaprechauns are not supine.
    
    Re .22
    Phillip, please show me the "nationalistic banalities" that are
    contained within my response.
    
    BTW I do remind people that I abhor that label "nationalist". I
    have often stated my philosophies on this matter, suffice it to
    say that the "nationalist people" of N.I. in my book are those
    who prance about on July 12th in some obscure ritualistic or
    tribal expression. I am a republican and I can support my philosophy
    with reasoned debate.
    
    Snake is whimsical about dissappointing people, when lives are
    involved.

    I've never worked out how to do quotations from one note to another,
    so all I can do is point out what I meant. 
    
    The remark made about ORGANISATION being touted around for donkeys
    years by our "Lords and masters" as civilisation was what I objected
    to. Certainly the people of Ireland I have met have all, without
    exception been civilized and brilliantly educated. But I've met
    an awful lot of British people who fit that description as well.
    
    My inference was that you see no civilisation or culture in Britain,
    and if that is so then it is not because it is not there. That would
    be an inappropriate topic for this conference though; to discuss
    it further we should use the Great_Britain conference - I and many
    other noters who use that one would have a lot to say if the topic
    were raised there.
    
    If my inference is wrong, then I'm sorry. The word should not have
    been "nationalist" but "Jingoist", and I think it is banal to say
    "My culture's better than yours," it's what the British did throughout
    the world when we went off being Imperialists - and I hate it. Every
    society has a culture and a civilisation worthy of study; aspects
    of one may appeal to our aesthetic sense more than others - and
    that's all you can say about it.
    
    Your remarks on democracy where pretty good, though, in my opinion.
    I would take it further and say we still don't have much democracy
    here. But that's another story.
    
    How many lives are saved by saying Britain has no civilisation?
    How many have been lost by saying "It's OK, they're just savages
    with no civilisation, killing them doesn't matter." Where do you
    stop, and who has the right to say it?
    
    Well, that's a very rambling response, but it's late and my eyes
    are just about as done in as my head. I hope you see what I'm saying
    though. And though no-one will probably care, I don't think I'll
    say it again. My sympathies are too much on Snake's side to get
    involved in a VAXnotes quarrel. Sic transit ludicrum vitriol.
    
    Phillip

    Leaprechauns respect motive.
    
    Re .24
    I have read your response and I thank you for taking the time to
    debate my "indescretion". The tenor of my earlier response was
    "jingoist", and I apologise for that. I certainly did not intend
    to label the British people as being lesser beings, for that is
    the anathema to my philosophy, --- to whit: no nation has the
    preogative on intelligence.
       I admit to being upset by the parroted platitudes and the false
    sense of injured innocence that often characterise the official
    response to terrorism, especially when it is that very officialdom
    that often lies close to the root causes of terrorism. Its the 
    intentional ignoring by the superpowers of their role in feeding
    the fires of terrorism that gets to me. All we ever hear from them
    is about how the PROBLEM of terrorism is being fought. It should
    be bloody obvious to all by now that its TERRORISM the SYMPTOM thats
    being addressed and not the problem.
    
    Snake will refrain from writing when the flame is at warp 10.
    

    I'm sure that this discsuuion has come up elsewhere but I'll mention
    it anyway.
    It seems to me that in Fiji recently we had a 'democratic election'
    and the 'legally' elected govenrment was overthrown because the
    former majority could not accept the verdict of the new majority. This
    is a country in the commonwealth and the democratically elected
    leader was not given much support when he went to London recently.
    I hope that I have not missed some glaring facts re Fiji. Now, lets
    talk about a 'majority' in NI. Do you think that Britian will accept
    the fact that the anti-union people are in a majority or will be
    excuse be found to stay in NI even though the majority dont want
    them. This has never bothered the British before so why should they
    start now. I see that the 'iron lady' has savaged anything that
    was costing the government money so why is Britian staying in NI.
    There are lots of possibilities. Training ground for the troops
    etc etc. So snake, I would not like to bet on the fact that 51%
    is a majority - would you ? 
    
    - Joe

     Leaprechauns know best.
    
    Re .26
    I know that Britain says its in N.I. to "prevent" a bloodbath (e.g.
    they are trying to facilitate/arbitrate an Irish peace (equates to
    the "policeman of the world", or white man's burden concepts).
    They will tell you that they are "protecting" the minority there(sic).
    When the majic 51% day arrives, I expect Britian to continue to
    "protect" the minority. Put simply Joe, you're right, I fully expect
    the "rules" to be restated sometime in advance of the 51% day.
    Oh! BTW if somebody out there thins I'm awful for not trusting the
    good standing of the British government and indirectly its power
    base, the people, you'd better believe it, your credibility in these
    matters is on the floor in Ireland, I hope you overcome this someday.
    
    Snake knows the score.
    

Since I usually argue against the actions of the IRA, let me make this
point re .19:

>    The IRA are trying to use a democratic system to get SF members
>    elected, then they decide that they will commit acts that are patently
>    AGAINST the democratic mojority.

An action is not wrong simply because is it against the "democratic
majority".  Truely democratic politics is always a matter of compromise -
few get all they want, most get something they can live with.  Simply
being in the majority does not give a group the right to do as it
pleases with the minority!  That concept of "democracy" is just another
variation on the standard tyrany, in which those with power feel they 
have the right to do as they please with those who don't.

So am I defending the IRA?  Not exactly, but neither was Snake - take a
look at .18 again, he calls their violence MURDER.  I'm sure most of the 
recent responders would agree (but on past form, I'm sure Renee wouldn't).
What Snake said in .18, and later more explicitly, is that terrorism
is a SYMPTOM of a deeper problem.  Certainly it is in NI.  Simplistic
statements about "freedom fighters" or about "murderers" don't help
solve the problems - they only polarize attitudes.  And surely that's 
something there's already plenty of in any discussion like this one.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Re .19:
    
>    An action is not wrong simply because is it against the "democratic
> majority".  Truely democratic politics is always a matter of compromise -
> few get all they want, most get something they can live with.  Simply
> being in the majority does not give a group the right to do as it
> pleases with the minority!  That concept of "democracy" is just another
> variation on the standard tyrany, in which those with power feel they 
> have the right to do as they please with those who don't.

    Good point Larry.  The American Indian suffered under similar
    circumstances.  Even today, American Indians live under ghetto
    conditions, with no employment, high alcoholism, high suicide
    rates, and deplorable living conditions.  But white "and democratic"
    America continues along its merry way, ignorant and uncaring of
    its original inhabitants.

    George "an American settler"

    You could substitute the aborigine for american indian in the previous
    note and be right about the lot of the australian aborigine (the
    only  point I am not sure of is the suicide rate but the rest is
    accurate). I must find out about the Maoris in NZ.
    
    - Joe

    Well lets face it the common enemy of the people on both sides of
    the fence is the Brit. When he goes I am sure that we can build.
    
    The Brit is ever present in the Catholic community, either in barracks,
    foot patrol or pub searches. If they choose to go out of their way
    as I have seen them in Falls Road, Anderstown, Stewardstown etc
    to harrass the youth, the old and generally make life a little more
    unpleasant for the people they will be hated. As long as they try
    to take down the Irish Tricolour and occupy the sacred Gaelic football
    grounds they deserve what they get.
    
    It is very easy to quote this and that but to experience it is a
    totally different thing and it is based on this experience that
    I make my judgements not on hear-say.
    
    After the Brits leave, there is even a greater enemy for both
    communities, unemployment, bad housing, bad health etc. This is
    what all this money should be spent on, not on occupying part of
    the island of Ireland but on improving the standards of the people
    so that they can make a future for their children. A lot of people
    on both communities are sick and tired of the last 20 years of unrest
    and there is a greater awareness through exchange holidays to the
    U.S.A. and other places that a Catholic boy or girl or a Protestant
    boy or girl are no different, their ambitions are similar, their
    dreams are similar, to live in peace and harmony. 
    
    These exchanges have been promoted by different groups both in Ireland
    and elsewhere. A lot of money collected in the U.S.A. goes to these
    organisations who have the vision to see not Catholic and Protestant
    but children who need what most children need, love, kindness, peace
    and a chance to grow up in a normal environment. This should be
    the goal. 
    
    A major re-planning of housing should be made because as long as
    the Ghettos exist so will hatred and division. This situation was
    a Brit made situation. Ireland was one of the first modern democracies
    in Europe and for that matter in the world whose leaders had the
    foresight to see its people as one and equal in every way.
    
    BTW When I lived in Belfast I have a photograph of a few little
    children in a park playing who asked me to take a photograph. I
    still have this photograph and I look at it often and wonder what
    might have happened these children, are they dead or alive. But
    what struck me most was the look in their faces, it is impossible
    to describe.
    

    Ren� El Gringo 

    re 31. > Rene, I know that you spent some time in Belfast and
    saw British soldiers harrass the youth. You believe that once the
    British presence is removed the people can begin to address all
    the social and economic problems that exist there. That is a very
    idealist attitude to take.
    
    I know people who worked for the Housing Executive and also have 
    a few friends who are social and youth workers. These people met 
    nothing only abuse when they tried to help in areas like Divis and 
    Unity flats (i.e. the worst housing areas in Belfast). Removing
    the British presence will make absolutely no difference. The hatred
    and bitterness is still there. 
    
    It is not only the British army who harrass. I have been stopped
    by an IRA check point. It was not a pleasant experience. They, who
    are "protecting" the Catholic community stop those very people and
    attempt to instil fear into them .
    
    I may not agree with many things that the British army do but I
    will also never allow the IRA to have any control over my opinions
    or my life. Removing the British army is going from the frying pan
    into the fire.
    
    Teresa.
    
    

    
    Another bombing reported in London today, six people injured. The thick
    twatts are at it again.
    
    -Tony

	Re .33 - they're not thick at all Tony, that's the problem. They
	bomb Manchester, the UK press announces that's because security
	in London has made it safe, so they bomb London. No indication
	of thickness there that I can see...

    Look at the root of the problem JJ, they're thick for using violent
    means for solving a political problem.
    
    -Tony

    � Look at the root of the problem

    Now I'm no prophet, but it wouldn't surprise me if the next few replies
    contained a fairly in-depth discussion of the root of the problem, going
    back to the middle of the 17th century, perhaps...

    I'm off for a pint or two of guinness.

    
    Yeah, ditto, I've read the drivel also, but every note, no matter how
    well written, doesn't mention the initial problem of violence against
    what is a political problem.
    
    To be honest, I don't think the British troops should be in NI, but I
    thik that the IRA are using the wrong tactics to get them out. Their
    cause might have more support, including that from the British people,
    if the IRA stopped killing and injuring them. 
    
    -Tony

    
    Unfortunately, "the guns of speech seldom prevail over the speech of
    guns".
    
    Pat

    Northern Ireland has always been a contentious land, I think it is some
    gas that bubbles up through the earth.  Ever since the infamous Cattle
    Raid of Cooley, people have been fighting each other up there.
    
    Mythology aside, what is the real conflict about, is it really about
    religion, or nationality, or is it simply about hatred?  I think it is
    the latter with all else serving as justification and rationalization. 
    Once upon a time, the reasons were real enough, but nearly one hundred
    years have passed since then and the fighting has continued with
    nothing accomplished, nothing solved, but the ending of lives and the
    descent of a beautiful land into a bunch of contentious armed camps. 
    It is a self perpetuating cycle of violence in which all parties,
    "catholics", "protestants", and "brits" are trapped and will not be
    released until someone stands up and says "Stop the killing!"  
    
    The truth as I see it is that the fighting has become a way of life in
    Belfast and Northern Ireland, it stopped being a political cause long
    ago and turned into a tradition passed on from parent to child until it
    has become an internalized hatred of anyone other than their own group. 
    "protestants" hate "catholics", "catholics" hate "protestants" and
    "brits" and the "brits" hate the whole situation.  There have, surely
    been atrocities on all sides and I have no doubt that the official
    parties are more lenient with the "protestants" than with the
    "catholics", most likely because the officials are largely drawn from
    the local population, but it is all rooted in stupid hatred.  Most
    children haven't the faintest idea why they hate the others, only that
    their parents do and they should also because that is how their parents
    feel.
    
    Some "catholics" are calling for the north to re-unite with the south
    under republican rule.  What will happen then?  How will the
    "protestant" populations in the north be treated, will their be a
    counter-persecution now that "catholics" would be in the majority? 
    Some call for the "protestants" to go "back to England".  What will
    they go "back" to?  most are not new immigrants, but families that have
    been in the north for generations, some since the time of Elizabeth I,
    Henry VIII or since the time of the Stewart rebellions in Scotland. 
    These people are Irish, not British, the counties of Northern Ireland
    are their home and they cannot be expected to leave.  
    
    Many "protestants" are scared that if the Irelands do reunite, they
    will become subject to rules they do not endorse, rules based on a
    religion they do not follow and that they may become subject to a form
    of religious persecution.  How can these fears be allayed?  The fact of
    the matter is that at this time, the majority of persons in Northern
    Ireland prefer to remain part of the British Commonwealth, when this
    opinion changes, then the change should be made.  Whatever happened
    back in 1922 not-withstanding, that was another time under different
    circumstances.  
    
    My personal opinion is that if people would stop killing each other and
    try to co-operate, ignoring ancient feuds and trying to work with one
    another, things would improve dramatically in the Northern Counties. 
    I do not take seriously, the argument of a child that takes a temper
    tantrum every time it does not get it's own way.  That is how I feel
    about terrorists like the various "protestant" and "catholic"
    paramilitary groups.  I do not take seriously any "political arguments
    and concerns" of any organization which eschews peaceful civilized
    dialogue in favor of violence perpetrated in the streets, shopping
    malls, department stores, movie theatres, and train stations of the
    world against persons who may, or may not, have any interest or concern
    in the matter.  Freedom-fighters take the moral high-ground, as much as
    that is possible when blood is an argument, they do not take hostages,
    kill civilians and innocent bystanders, or kill persons who are just
    trying to make a living outside of the conflict; when
    "freedom-fighters" do these things, they become terrorists and must be
    suppressed as the criminals that they have prostituted themselves into
    being.  This same holds true of all the "protestant" Paramilitary
    organizations.  
    
    Furthermore, anyone who breaks this issue down on religious grounds and
    fights, calling themselves "protestant" or "catholic" should stop a
    moment and take a look at what they are saying about themselves and
    their religion.  No blow can be struck in the name of Christ, but that
    blow strike against Christ himself, who loves ALL persons equally and
    requires us who call ourselves by His name to do likewise.  This is why
    I parenthesize the terms "protestant" and "catholic" in the above text,
    for neither of these groups can be true christians while they continue
    to kill each other and hate each other.  Also, any so-called priest in
    the region who fosters or encourages the divisions for any reason is no
    priest save in name alone, for no-one can serve God as priest when
    their very words and deeds deny that service.
    
    Saying that The IRA has popular support is a true statement, the IRA
    does have popular support, but by objective standards, they do not have
    "high" popular support.  Officially, most government organizations
    consider the Northern Ireland situation to be a Low-Intensity conflict
    with low-moderate internal and moderate to low external support.  This
    is from a couple of slightly conflicting de-classified intelligence
    and state department reports from a couple of years back.  What support
    they have may well be fanatical, but it is nothing like a majority or
    even a threatening minority.  
    
    Personally, I think Northern Ireland should, as a population, be allowed
    to decide it's own fate peacefully and democratically, in the absence
    of terrorism, violence and propaganda.  Idealistically, the referendum
    should be held following a year or so of campaigning and an honest look
    at all the options and effects.  After such a campaign, the population
    should vote, again, honestly and in possession of all the facts.  If a
    clear majority of opinion, perhaps as much as sixty percent is not
    reached, then the issue should go round again until it is.  The fact
    that the decision to partition off Ulster was made farily or unfairly
    eighty or ninety years ago is immaterial at this point, you have got to
    work with what you have now.  I tend to believe that if all parties sat
    down and tried to find a civilized solution, that everyone would come
    up with something they can live with.  Protestants and catholics live
    together peacefully enopugh in other countries, even fairly well in the
    Republic, why should they not get along in northern Ireland?
    
    Thanks for listening,
    
    Andrew
    

    Andrew, I think the conflict is much less about hatred or religion,
    but more about power, political power, that is.  Power of a privileged
    class over another.  You said accurately that "these people [in
    Northern Ireland] are Irish, not British".  That is a fact.
    
    I do agree with you that the Catholic church holds too much sway in
    the Republic's affairs.  The separation of church and state in
    Ireland must be actively encouraged.  This would help appease the
    fears of the Unionists.
    
    Concerning relevance, whatever happened in Northern Ireland 70 years
    ago is of definite relevance today.  Taking your line of reasoning,
    should the Soviet Union not have relinquished control of the Baltics,
    the Ukraine, and Central Republics, simply because it was done 70 years
    ago?  No, certainly not.  Similarly, Britain should undo their
    colonization of Ireland.  That decision to partition the country was
    undemocratic and against the will of the Irish people in the 32
    counties.
    
    You have the complete and peaceful dismantling of the Berlin Wall in
    Germany, but a farmer in Donegal can't cross the border to visit his
    neighbor in Derry.  Why?  Because as Europe is fast breaking down all
    borders, Britain is fast building new ones in Ireland, to separate
    the Irish people from what?  Themselves?  It's completely ludicrous.
    You'd think Britain has better things to spend their tax money on
    instead of building military installations all over Ireland.  Why
    not spend all those millions on retooling the British industries
    to better compete with the Germans and Japanese?
    
    We do agree however that whatever comes about in Ireland, that it
    be done peacefully and without violence.
    
    Slan,
    /George

    re.39
    
    Andrew,
    
    The frst thing you have to realise is that it is NOT a religious
    conflict. It is NOT Catholic vs. Protestants.
    
    >Mythology aside, what is the real conflict about, is it really about
    >religion, or nationality, or is it simply about hatred?  I think it is
    
    If you search thru this file you'll find a few different versions of the 
    history of Ireland.
    
    
    >Some "catholics" are calling for the north to re-unite with the south
    >under republican rule.  What will happen then?  How will the
    >"protestant" populations in the north be treated, will their be a
    .
    .
    .
    >Many "protestants" are scared that if the Irelands do reunite, they
    >will become subject to rules they do not endorse, rules based on a
    >religion they do not follow and that they may become subject to a form
    >of religious persecution.  How can these fears be allayed?  The fact of
    
    There are, of course, thousands of protestants living quite normally in 
    the Republic. The religious "rules" you speak of are basically two: 
    Divorce and Abortion. Divorce is not allowed at the moment but I think this 
    will change in the next year or so (there's a referendum due). Abortion
    is not allowed but it's not allowed in the North either. I don't know of
    any other religious problems the unionists may have. People like Ian
    Paisley, a protestant religious-politician, tries to scare people into 
    thinking that the Republic is run by the Pope. He seems to forget that
    England is governed by the head of the Church of England (i.e. the Queen).
    The religious persecution arguement is a whitewash.
    
    >My personal opinion is that if people would stop killing each other and
    >try to co-operate, ignoring ancient feuds and trying to work with one
    >another, things would improve dramatically in the Northern Counties. 
    
    A bit simplistic, this is not a perfect world. The issue has to be decided 
    one way or the other. The six counties are not economically viable on 
    their own so they have to be governed either by London or become part of a
    larger republic. Unfortunetly the problem will not go away, the mistakes 
    of 1922 have to be sorted out.
    
    
    >................Also, any so-called priest in
    >the region who fosters or encourages the divisions for any reason is no
    >priest save in name alone, for no-one can serve God as priest when
    >their very words and deeds deny that service.
    
    You're probably thinking of priests like Dennis Faul who got involved
    because his parisioners were being arrested and beaten up by the British
    army and the RUC. They had no one else to turn to, they were not 
    represented by the local politicians or the Republic's government. Hence
    the support for the IRA also.
    
    
    Tony.
    
    
    

     TV investigator Roger Cook plans to reveal more evidence in tomorrow
    nights "Cook report"(ITV) naming Martin McGinness as the IRA's top man.
     In last weeks show they spoke to numerous witnesses(including ex IRA
    members) who all said McGinness was the IRA's leading man.
     There was also a calls from local Catholics community leaders for Amnesty
    International and Helsinki watch to investigate Sinn Fien.They claimed
    SF offices were being used as IRA safe house for torture and
    Interrogation.
     One man claimed that McGinness was present while he was being tortured
    by the IRA at a SF office.

      McGiness has turned down offers for an Interview.

     SCott 

    The organisation is called Sinn F�in, it means "ourselves alone" in
    Irish.
    The guys name is Martin Mc GUinness.
                                ^
    

 re. .42
 What a simple way, to mark for death, a political 
 opponent.  Accuse him of being a member of a "banned"
 organization.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out
 that Sinn Fein offices and members are constantly 
 watched and scrutinized by the British forces.  
 One would have a hard time, if not impossible,
 trying to utilize political offices that are watched
 so heavily, for alleged IRA activities.
 I would suspect that the real leaders of the Republican
 movement play it very low key (ie. you won't find them
 running for politics, or publicly expressing their
 opinions on British occupation).

 So let's here the names of these "local Catholic
 community leaders".


                       Mark

    
    All Sinn Fein members are "legitimate" targets for loyalist
    paramilitaries. The party has been demonised by the British and Irish
    media and this is another episode in that demonisation. The SDLP are
    also "legitimate" targets for the loyalist paramilitaries as they are
    part of what loyalist terrorists call a "pan-nationalist front". This
    pan-nationalist association has also been bandied about by "respectable"
    unionists like John Taylor and Peter Robinson who care little for the
    danger it causes for SDLP members.
    
    Perhaps when Cooke has finished his investigation into McGuinness, he
    might investigate the links between Paisley, Robinson and loyalist
    terrorists.
    
    Denis.

    
    
     re.44
    
            Roger Cook DID NOT accuses him of anything,It was ex IRA
    members that named him,and a Mrs Heggarty.McGuinness had promised her
    that her son would not be touched.He begged her to convince her son to
    come home...he did and he was found dead days later.He also had film
    footage of McGuinness boasting about being in the IRA.
             
            As for the community leaders name.I'm not that sure.
    
            And Mc Guinness can't dislike the British that much,He lets
    them support his family     

            
    SCott
    

                            
    
    You can be sure that if Cook says/accuses/questions anybody about 
    ANY subject he will have done his homework. These will not be false
    allegations and will not have been set up by any government/police/
    army organisations. Personally I think Roger Cook does a great job of
    bringing ALL criminals to task, car ringers/thieves,drug dealers,
    organised crime rackets (e.g the Manchester Triads), child porn
    dealers, poachers, fishing pirates....(an almost endless list) have
    all been arrested due to The Cook Report. He has also confronted
    the Serb urban cleansing troops and their leaders.
    
	What I am trying to say is that this is not "another episode in the
    demonisation of Sinn Fein by the media". Cook is showing that 
    McGuinness is an active member of the IRA (any denials ??) and the
    witnesses are backing this up and also saying theat McGuinness has the 
    final say when it comes to the "court martialing" and subsequent execution 
    of members of his organisation (ala Frank Heggarty) and/or the murder of
    informers. The Report has film footage of McGuinness STATING that he is
    (or was at the time of filming) "proud to be a member of the IRA".
      	    
    	A small question... if last weeks and last nights program had been
    about revealing somebody as the leader of child porn agency... would
    this have been an example of demonisation by the media ??      

    

     Wonder what stores Holohan will come up with to defend the Shankill
    road bombing,in which 10 people died and over 50 injured.Among the
    dead are a 9 years girl and a 13 year old.The mother and father of the
    9 year old were also killed,leaving a 9 month old baby and a 13 year
    old boy.The Husband and wife that owned the chip shop were also killed.
    One of the bombers died and one is in hospital....God I hope he suffers 

     Bombs were also planted at Railway stations.One went off at Reading.
    There was two bombs there...the second was timed to go off as the 
    Rescue services arrived after the first bomb.

     Cowardly Scum!.

    SCott

    Last night (24-Oct-1993) at approx. 16:30 a bomb was found in a Reading
    Rail Station toilet, it was made safe by a controlled explosion. At
    22:43 a bomb exploded a couple of hundred yards down the track. This
    caused minor damage to a signal pole. 

    There have been no injories reported.

    If the bomb in the toilet hadn't been found then it would have been a
    different story as this bomb was set to go off shortly after the one on
    the track.


    A bomb was also planted in a toilet cistern at Basingstoke. This was
    found by a member of staff investigating a water leak from the cistern.
    This bomb was also made safe.
    
    Simon
    

    You boys don't get it do you? They aren't "cowardly scum", they are
    "freedom-fighters", who are "justified" in their actions. Aren't they
    Mark?
    
    Laurie.

    
    Re: .48
    
    > One of the bombers died and one is in hospital....God I hope he suffers 
                                                        +++++++++++++++++++++
    
    I agree wholeheartedly that planting the bombs is cowardly.  There
    is simply no justifiable reason for doing so and being caught in
    their own trap is perhaps just, but this kind of sentiment is why
    the fight goes on and on.  It adds insult to injury and it's a rare
    person, right or wrong, that forgives or forgets that.
    
    Steve
    

 Tragic and absolutely wrong.
 
 Now may I ask you, where was your condemnation of the
 40+ some odd Catholics who were murdered in the past
 4 weeks by the allies of the British security forces,
 the UFF?.

 Why don't you turn your anger into something positive,
 and lobby your government to push for peace? 

                        Mark

    
    
  >>  I agree wholeheartedly that planting the bombs is cowardly.  

      Totally Agree!

    >There
    >is simply no justifiable reason for doing so and being caught in
    >their own trap is perhaps just, 
                       ^^^^^^^
     No perhaps...it's very just.

    >but this kind of sentiment is why
    >the fight goes on and on.  It adds insult to injury and it's a rare
                                        ^^^^^^
    Insult to who?,certainly not the to the families of the dead.After
    seeing the mother of one of the dead children...I standby that
    statement.
    
    
    SCott

    
    re .52
    
    The Government has been in talks with Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams
    and the talks were due to continue on at Stormont on Wednesday.
    The talks have now been postponed due to the Shankhill bomb. Seems to
    me the provo's have gone against the political wing this time and
    deliberately attempted to and have succeeded in holding up the
    peace talks.
    
    Gordon...
    
    

     I think the killing of any innocent person is a cowardly act,no matter
    what there religion.

     Where do you get your figures from???There has not been 40+ Catholics
    killed in the last month.

    And as for the UFF being allies.....that's laughable.
    
     SCott

  re. .54
  Which government?  Certainly not the British government.
  They don't want peace, ergo they won't talk with
  Sinn Fein.  Would a government that wants peace, 
  censor political opposition?  Would a government that
  wants peace collude with loyalist terror gangs?
  Would a government that wants peace, refuse to talk
  with those it deams the enemy?

  40+ is in number of innocents murdered by loyalist
  terror gangs in the past 6 weeks.

  re. .55
  Amnesty International has documented collusion between
  the British security forces and loyalist terror gangs.
  Target lists are still regularly passed on to 
  loyalist terror gangs by the British forces.

                  Mark

    Hey Mark...
    
    Do you think the planting and exploding of the bomb in the Shankhill
    Road was a cowardly act? Yes or no?
    
    Laurie.

    Re: SCott
    Below are selected news items about attacks on Catholics in NI
    for the past month (from the Irish Emigrant).  Apparently, you
    missed them.
    
    =======================================================================
    
    October 25, 1993            THE IRISH EMIGRANT             Issue No.351
    _______________________________________________________________________
    
    - A British soldier was injured in an explosion in the Ardoyne area of 
      Belfast on Tuesday night.  Surrounding houses were damaged.  This 
      incident followed the arrest of two men after a car chase. Two guns 
      were found in the car.  It is thought that the arrests prevented an 
      attack on a leading loyalist.  The chase took place after the car was 
      seen in the Shankill area near his home.  Also on Tuesday night, a 
      jammed gun prevented the UVF from killing a Catholic man in Lurgan 
      and a bomb was found under the car of a member of the security forces 
      in Magherafelt.
    
    - On Wednesday a bomb was thrown at an RUC Land-Rover in Derry and a 
      Catholic man escaped from his smoke-filled flat in Lisburn after an 
      inflammable liquid was poured through the letter-box and set alight.
    
    - Wednesday's Irish Times carried two articles about the current wave 
      of attacks against Catholics.  In one there was a detailed account of 
      an attempt to burn a family of five in Coleraine, the reaction of the 
      family and the goodwill shown by their neighbours, Protestant and 
      Catholic.  The other described "the climate of terror and 
      intimidation" being experienced by Catholics in mixed housing estates 
      and how many of them are leaving their homes.  The RUC has had some 
      success in its pursuit of loyalist gunmen and has made twenty arrests 
      in the last two weeks.  Six of those arrested have been charged with 
      murder and attempted murder.
    
    - Twenty-four hours later a Catholic taxi driver was shot in the head a 
      few hundred yards from the scene of Mr Gibson's killing.  He had 
      picked up two men in the city centre and one of them shot him as they 
      got out of the taxi.  The man is said to be in critical condition.  
      That same night loyalist paramilitaries threw three bombs into the 
      homes of Catholics or at least they said they did but one house was 
      occupied by a Protestant family.  No one was injured in any of the 
      attacks.
    
    - The Sunday Times of London claims that the IRA's target on the 
      Shankill Road on Saturday was a loyalist killer who rejoices in the 
      name of "mad dog" but that he escaped from the scene with minor 
      injuries.  Earlier in the week the Guardian carried an extensive 
      interview with the same man and he spoke of the ease with which he 
      killed Catholics.

=======================================================================

October 18, 1993            THE IRISH EMIGRANT             Issue No.350
_______________________________________________________________________

At least two unionist politicians called on loyalist paramilitaries to 
end their campaign of violence but the appeals were totally ignored and 
another two Catholics are dead and eight wounded.  The first killing 
prompted more than 1,000 people to hold a peace vigil on Friday but a 
few hours later the UFF struck again.  On Sunday it was the IRA's turn 
to try to kill someone.

- On Tuesday morning UVF gunmen opened fire on a van carrying Catholic 
  workmen on their way to the Shorts' factory where they were employed 
  by a sub-contractor.  Joseph "Jody" Reynolds (40), a father of five 
  from the Andersonstown Road area of Belfast, died in the attack.  
  Five others were injured including two of Mr Reynolds' brothers and 
  his nephew.  The attack took place when the van stopped at traffic 
  lights on the Sydenham Road inside the Harbour Industrial Estate.  
  The gunmen, who had been following the van in a car, made their 
  getaway on foot across a railway bridge into a loyalist area.  
  Another Catholic firm has withdrawn its sub-contractors from the 
  estate.

- That evening the UVF were again in action.  A Catholic man was shot 
  through the glass panel of the door at his home on Lansdowne Park in 
  the Fortwilliam area of Belfast.  The victim, later named as Peter 
  Regan (52), was seriously injured in the attack.  His Protestant 
  neighbours were quick to appear on television to express their 
  bewilderment at the attempt on the life of an innocent man.

- A young Catholic woman was seriously injured when loyalist gunmen 
  opened fire on a black taxi in Belfast on Wednesday evening.  She was 
  shot in the face.  Other people in the taxi had to be treated for 
  shock.

- Patrick McMahon (23) was shot dead on Friday evening as he walked 
  along Newington Avenue in Belfast with his girlfriend and their 
  three-year-old son.  His UFF attacker fired from across the road and 
  made his getaway into the adjacent loyalist Tiger Bay area.

- A UFF gunman in a Halloween mask attempted to kill a man in a shop in 
  the Catholic Short Strand area of Belfast on Saturday.  The intended 
  victim managed to run away and escaped with wounds to his arms and 
  legs.

     =================================================================
     
     October 11, 1993         THE IRISH EMIGRANT          Issue No.349
     _________________________________________________________________
          
     - A Catholic man in his twenties was shot and wounded by loyalist 
       gunmen in Antrim town shortly after midnight on Tuesday 
       morning.  He was hit in the chest and abdomen and his condition 
       is described as stable.  Shortly after the attack the RUC 
       stopped a car at a checkpoint and arrested a number of men. A 
       gun was also recovered.
     
     - A package addressed to Dick Spring caused a Belfast postal 
       sorting office to be evacuated on Tuesday morning.  An Army 
       bomb disposal team dealt with what turned out to be "small 
       explosive" device.  The UVF said that it was responsible for 
       mailing the bomb.
     
     - Jason McFarlane was shot dead by UFF gunmen while he was 
       playing pool in the Derby House bar on the Stewartstown Road in 
       west Belfast on Wednesday evening.  Another young man was 
       injured in the attack.  A spokesman for the UFF said that the 
       intention was to "inflict heavy casualties" but that a gun had 
       jammed.  A few hours after this incident the UFF opened fire on 
       the homes of two Catholic families in Newtownabbey but although 
       both houses were occupied, one with five young children and 
       their parents, no one was injured.
     
     - Further attacks on Catholics took place on Thursday.  An 
       explosive device was thrown at a house in Larne but failed to 
       detonate and shots were fired at a taxi in the centre of 
       Belfast.  The taxi was heading for Ardoyne and was hit twice. 
       Its occupants were uninjured although two women had to be 
       treated for shock.
     
     =================================================================
     
     October 4, 1993          THE IRISH EMIGRANT          Issue No.348
     _________________________________________________________________
     
     - Loyalist gunmen made two separate attempts on the lives of 
       Catholics in Belfast at the weekend.  One man was wounded in 
       the arms and legs and another escaped injury.

     re.58

     The killing of innocent people is very sad and unjust,their killers
    are scum.
     But my point was that there had not been 40+ killed in the last month.
    I read your note as far as I counted there was 2 killed.I know there
    has been more than 2 killed,but not 40+.
    
    SCott

    Looks as if there have been 20 Catholics killed so far this year...
    
    BTW, it's nice to hear Gerry Adams beginning to face up to his
    responsibilities, I wonder when the Loyalists will do the same?
    
    Laurie.
    
    
    RTw  10/24 2143  SINN FEIN'S ADAMS CONDEMNS IRA BOMB AS DISASTER

    By Paul Majendie

    BELFAST, Oct 25 (Reuter) - The leader of the IRA's political wing, his
    tentative peace initiative in tatters, condemned a botched and bloody
    IRA bomb attack as a disaster.

    Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams, using his strongest language since the
    Irish Republican Army blew up 11 Protestants at a war memorial ceremony
    in 1987, said of Saturday's blast: "It was wrong. It cannot be
    excused."

    The bomb killed 10 people and injured 59 in a Protestant area of
    Belfast. The predominantly Catholic IRA, battling to oust Britain from
    Northern Ireland, apologised for the carnage it caused among shoppers.

    It said its intended target was a nearby meeting of leaders of an
    outlawed Protestant extremist group which has gone on a killer rampage
    against Catholics since August.

    Adams, a bearded revolutionary who preaches the twin philosophy of "an
    armalite rifle in one hand, a ballot box in the other," has been
    holding secret negotiations with the province's moderate Irish
    nationalist leader, John Hume.

    Hume has hailed the talks as the best chance for peace after a
    quarter-century of conflict in Northern Ireland in which more than
    3,000 people have been killed.

    He begged Britain and Ireland not to turn their backs on his dialogue,
    saying: "I still believe there is real hope of achieving lasting
    peace."

    London and Dublin offered him little comfort. British Prime Minister
    John Major said of the Hume-Adams dialogue: "I have read about it, I
    have heard about it but I have not seen it."

    He described the IRA apology for the Belfast bombing as "cold comfort"
    for the victims and denounced the attack as "premeditated murder."

    Irish Foreign Minister Dick Spring called off a scheduled meeting in
    Belfast on Wednesday with Britain's Northern Ireland Minister Patrick
    Mayhew "out of sympathy and respect" for the victims.

    Spring said: "Hopes have been dealt a grievous blow and if this bombing
    should end the peace process it will be the Provisionals (the IRA) who
    have killed it."

    Protestant extremists who have killed 30 Catholics this year in a
    renewed wave of sectarian killings vowed that the IRA would "pay a very
    heavy price" for the botched bombing.

    Protestant Unionists, who want the province to remain British, called
    on the government to reintroduce internment without trial for suspected
    guerrillas.

    Amid the ritual condemnations, it was the angry voices of the latest
    victims that struck home, highlighting the depth of sectarian hatred in
    Northern Ireland after centuries of Catholic-Protestant mistrust.

    Sixteen-year-old Suzanne Walker, whose fingers were blown off by the
    bomb and later sown back on, blazed with hatred for the IRA.

    "It is not worth their while living if they are going to do things like
    that," she said. "They are scum, just scum."

    REUTER 

RE:

�  Amnesty International has documented collusion between
�  the British security forces and loyalist terror gangs.
�  Target lists are still regularly passed on to 
�  loyalist terror gangs by the British forces.

But then an organisation setup by an ex-IRA man would, wouldn't it.

 re. .60
 
 How about the British government?  When will they face
 up to their responsibilities? 
 When will John Major come forward and condemn the
 Widgery whitewash over the murder of Irish civil rights
 marchers?
 When will John Major come forward and not only condemn
 but stop British collusion with the loyalist terror
 gangs?
 When will John Major come forward and take a stand
 against censorship of political opposition?


                  Mark

    
    Re: .53
    
    > Insult to who?,certainly not the to the families of the dead.After
    > seeing the mother of one of the dead children...I standby that
    > statement.
    
    I understand your anger.  I agree it is just that the coward was caught
    in his own trap, but the sentiment of hoping that he suffers as well
    is the kind of vengeful feeling that keeps this going on.  The man is
    down and deserves to be, but what's to be gained by kicking him as well?
    Often the last, unnecessary kick is the thing the opposition focuses on
    when planning their next tit for tat.
    
    Steve
    

    
    re 54 (by me)
    
    	Got mixed up between the Anglo-Irish talks and the Hume-Adams
    talks. Still the bomb has stopped the Anglo-Irish meeting from 
    going ahead.
     
    
    	

    re.56
    
    Mark,
    What possible reason can you come up with for the British government
    not to want peace?
    It's totally absurd to say that they don't.
    If you want troops out of N.I. what do you want? An all out civil war?
    Who is going to go in and keep the peace? Certain factions on each side
    absolutely detest each other and are hell bent on wiping each other
    out!
    John Hume has been talking to Sinn Fein, he is an elected member of
    parliament, the government have not discouraged him from doing it and
    are on record as saying that they would not discount any possibility.
    They are also on record as saying that they will not negotiate with
    terrorists or anyone who supports them and that as you know very well
    includes Sinn Fein.
    
    Why don't you pile your enthusiasm for "Brits out of Ireland" by
    lobbying Sinn Fein to cease terrorist activities, Gerry Adams would
    then be un-censored, dialogue would start and I think you would then
    find the catholic streets cleared of troops. The army would then be
    able to clean out the UFF UVF et al. 
    Don't think that that's a naive approach because the soldiers and the
    RUC may be a lot of things but they still don't like being shot at.
    So, if it's only loyalists that were doing the shooting do you think
    that they would get away with standing back and letting it happen.
    
    Bill

 re. .64
  How did the bomb stop the Anglo-Irish meeting from
 going ahead?  Did it damage the location of the next
 Anglo-Irish meeting?

 More like, the British government decided to seize
 upon this opportunity to try and scuttle any peace
 initiative that might have a possibility of working.
 

                     Mark

    Dick Spring called the meeting off actually, out of respect and
    sympathy for the dead actually. A desired effect possibly ???

    Gordon.

    RE: .62
    
    And when will Mark Holohan answer a direct question? FWIW, I think .66
    is as fine a display of paranoia in the face of conflicting evidence as
    I've ever seen.
    
    The British government is on record as saying that it will talk to any
    group as soon as it renounces terrorism.
    
    Laurie.

    re  MHolohan.

     Still interested in where you got the 40+ dead from.If it's from the 
    same place you get your other story's,maybe there as inaccurate as this 
    one.Or did you just make that number up?.

    SCott

 re. .65

 Perhaps they are afraid that peace, and hence later
 a United Ireland, might give the Scots, and Welsh
 aspirations that London would not like.

 If they wanted peace, they would invite every party
 involved to the peace table.  

 Maybe the British forces should be concentrating on
 disarming the heavily armed loyalist community if
 they really don't want blood-shed after they pull out.

 As to your other statement,
 "So, if it's only loyalists that were doing the 
  shooting do you think that they would get away with
  standing back and letting it happen."

 No they wouldn't stand back, they'd join in to help
 murder Nationalists, like they did in Ballymurphy 
 in 1970.

 I can't see the British Army cracking down, on the
 same folks they treat as allies.  I can't see them
 cracking down on the Loyalist murder gangs they
 collude with, can you?

                Mark

    If the IRA (or the Loyalists) wanted to end the bloodshed it would call
    the British Government's bluff, renounce terrorism, and demand its
    promised hearing, and a pow-wow round the peace-table. Why doesn't it
    do that Mark?
    
    Another question for you to ignore.
    
    Laurie.

 re. .71
 On that same vein,
 If the British government wanted to end the bloodshed,
 they would call the IRA's bluff, renounce state-sponsored
 terrorism, and invite everyone to the peace-table.

 What kind of a peace conference has pre-conditions.
 One in which you don't want your opposition at the
 table.

 The IRA are not demanding that the British government
 renounce state-sponsored terrorism, end collusion with
 loyalist terror gangs, and  remove state censorship
 before they'll talk with the British at the 
 peace-table.

                    Mark

 P.S.
 By the way, ask your questions about IRA activity
 or intentions, to the IRA, not me.  What's the matter,
 you can't, why not? because you refuse to talk with
 them you say.  Oh, I see.  No wonder you can't find
 a solution.

    Most of the questions I ask are directed at, and answerable by, you.
    Such as:
    
    Do you condemn the Shankhill Road bombing as a cowardly act?
    
    Laurie.

    re.74
    
    Mark,
    I don't think you've grasped the fact that this 1993 and continual
    referals to 1970 does not mean that the political scene and/or
    attitudes have stayed the same. They haven't.
    
    Everybody is sick to the back teeth of violence and terrorist bombs.
    The IRA have only achieved one thing and thats to draw world attention
    to NI and therefore, collusion (if it exists) between the army, RUC and  
    UFF or whoever now have the eyes of the world on them. Thats why the
    events of the last two decades will not be allowed to continue.
    
    But just one point if I may, The RUC, army and protestants are all on
    the same side are they not? They are all loyal to the crown, NI is a
    British dependant territory is it not? Why shouldn't there be collusion
    to fight a common enemy? Notice I said fight not murder.
    
    Bill

  Looks like the British government is working hard
  to scuttle any possibility of peace.  Their response
  to Mr. Adams condemnation of the bombing was to
  ban Mr. Adams from mainland Britain.  This
  only further goes to prove that the British government
  is not really interested in peace. 

                       Mark


  P.S.
  BTW, the 40+ number should have been number
  of Catholic's attacked, not murdered.
  Add 2 more murders, and 5 injured to that number
  as of yesterday.

    Accepting as I do, the fact that in order to acheive peace in NI, all
    sides need to sit down and discuss the matter round a table, at the
    same time and in the same place, I believe the British Government is
    correct.
    
    It is on record that the British Government will talk to the IRA, PIRA
    and Sinn Fein when they renounce terrorism (and by implication prove
    that by stopping). Frankly, I believe there's as much chance of that as
    there is of Mark Holohan answering a straight question.
    
    Sinn Fein have has years at the ballot box to get the chance to present
    their views politically and have consistently failed to get sufficient
    support. Why should the British Government give an ear to a bunch of
    murdering thugs with no legitimate mandate?
    
    Stop the violence, both sides, and then talk.
    
    Laurie.

    
    re  75
    
    How many protestants/catholics/any others are attacked each time a 
    bomb goes off in a shopping area. How does 40+ attacked over six weeks
    compare with 100's attacked 50+ injured and 9 dead in 1 split second.
    How many protestants were attacked over the same perio ??. Are you saying
    that the IRA were justified in blowing up those people on Saturday ??
                                                             
    Gordon...
     
    
    
    
    

 re. .77
 No, British attacks against the Irish nationalists
 are just as wrong as Irish republican responses to 
 those British attacks.

 What I find offensive is a British mentality, that
 Irish lives lost are just status quo, yet British
 lives lost are somehow worth the British government
 scuttling the peace talks.

 I find it not only offensive, but illogical that the
 British can continue to practice state-sponsored
 terrorism out one side of their mouth, say they stand
 for peace out the other, and then use every trick
 or excuse in the book, not to meet with their adversary
 at the peace table.

                Mark

re.75:

> 				Their response
>  to Mr. Adams condemnation of the bombing was to
>  ban Mr. Adams from mainland Britain.  

Point of fact: The ban on Gerry Adams was signed last week before the 
bombing.

2nd point of fact: Gerry Adams helped carry the coffin of the dead IRA 
bomber at his funeral today. What does that make Gerry Adams?

Dave.

 Point of fact:
   The ban is an attempt by the British government to
   stop the peace talks.  They are currently moving more
   troops in to occupy north east Ireland, as we
   speak.

 Point of fact:
   From the UPI newswire:
   British government to send more army troops into
   north east Ireland.

 Point of fact:
   From the UPI newswire:
   British soldier's are once again working with their
   loyalist terrorist counter-parts.

"Police said the soldier was arrested and held in custody after
shooting the man in the stomach as hundreds of sympathizers gathered
outside the home of IRA bomber Tom Begley in the Ardoyne district of
north Belfast.
	Witnesses said the soldier jumped from an armored army Land Rover and
fired up to 15 shots. Three bullets shattered a window in a house close
to Begley's home."

   Once again, it's the nationalist community being faced
   with violence from the British army, and the 
   loyalist terrorists they collude with.

              Mark

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (RIC CLARK) writes:
Path: jac.zko.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (RIC CLARK)
Newsgroups: clari.news.gov.international,clari.news.terrorism,clari.news.europe,clari.news.politics
Subject: Ulster violence escalates despite calls for peace
Keywords: international, non-usa government, government, terrorism,
	political extremists, politics
Copyright: 1993 by UPI, R
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 13:02:40 PDT
Location: ulster, great britain
ACategory: international
Slugword: ulster-conflict-exp
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 638/637; Id: z4190; Sel: xxigf; Adate: 10-26-N/A; Ver: 1/1; V: 1stld-writethru
Approved: [email protected]
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Xref: jac.zko.dec.com clari.news.gov.international:21226 clari.news.terrorism:1751 clari.news.europe:6611 clari.news.politics:6564

	BELFAST, Northern Ireland (UPI) -- A fresh wave of violence swept
Belfast Tuesday as a British soldier was held in custody after shooting
a man and loyalist gunmen killed two garbage workers and injured seven
others in a spray of automatic gunfire.
	The killings came as church leaders called for peace and thousands of
mourners grieved their dead at funeral services held for victims of
Saturday's massive bomb blast at a fish shop in Belfast that killed 10
people and injured 60 others.
	Church of Ireland Primate Archbishop Robin Eames urged all Ulster
paramilitary groups to lay down their arms.
	``The province will be reduced to a wasteland of hopelessness and
despair unless the violence stops,'' he said. ``Let the voice of the
decent people of Northern Ireland be heard from our homes, from our
churches, from our places of work and from the corriders of power.''
	He added, ``In God's name I say yet again -- stop the killing, stop
the bombing, stop the shooting.''
	Prime Minister John Major said those responsible for the latest
sectarian attacks in Northern Ireland ``will be hunted down'' and
subject to the full severity of British law.
	``The perpetrators of sectarian violence have committed coldblooded
and premeditated murder,'' he told the House of Commons.
	Northern Ireland Secretary Patrick Mayhew described the recent
attacks as ``revolting and barbaric.''
	Just hours later, a man was critically wounded after being shot by a
solider outside the home of an Irish Republican Army bomber killed in
Saturday's bombing.
	Police said the soldier was arrested and held in custody after
shooting the man in the stomach as hundreds of sympathizers gathered
outside the home of IRA bomber Tom Begley in the Ardoyne district of
north Belfast.
	Witnesses said the soldier jumped from an armored army Land Rover and
fired up to 15 shots. Three bullets shattered a window in a house close
to Begley's home.
	``Tension here is powder keg,'' said one resident.
	Less than a mile away, thousands of mourners lined the Shankill Road
for the funerals of the first victims of Saturday's bombing.
	Women and children wept as the little coffin of the youngest victim,
Michelle Baird, 9, was driven past the scene of the disaster alongside
the coffins of her mother, Evelyn, and father Michael Morrison, both 27.
	Mourners had waited along the roadside after paying their respects to
another victim, Wilma McKee, 38, who had been buried less than an hour
earlier. Hundreds of shops and pubs closed for the afternnoon as a mark
of respect. The remaining victims, including Begley, will be buried
Wednesday.
	Earlier Tuesday, loyalist gunmen killed two people and wounded seven
others in an attack on city garbage workers as they were gathering for
duty at a truck depot in a predominantly Catholic area of the city.
Residents who rushed to the scene found their relatives among the dead
and wounded.
	``My daddy's dead. My daddy's dead,'' screamed a 11-year-old boy as
he ran around the yard in shock after coming to the scene with his
mother and finding his father lying in a pool of blood.
	Hours later the Royal Ulster Constabulary said more police and troops
were being deployed in Belfast in a bid to halt the escalating spiral of
sectarian violence.
	``We have had grave situations before and nobody can be remotely
complacent about this,'' said RUC Chief Constable Hugh Annesley. ``It's
not going to run out of control, but it is extremely serious...the
possibility for even further atrocities is obvious.''
	Tuesday's killings bring the total number of people slain in the
Northern Ireland conflict this year to 64. In the past week a total of
14 people have been killed and 70 injured.


*******************************************************************************

  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - 
  [email protected]                                      John Whorfin
  
  The opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the opinions of 
  Digital Equipment Corporation.

*******************************************************************************
----- End of forwarded message -----

*******************************************************************************

  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - 
  [email protected]                                      John Whorfin
  
  The opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the opinions of 
  Digital Equipment Corporation.

*******************************************************************************

>2nd point of fact: Gerry Adams helped carry the coffin of the dead IRA 
>bomber at his funeral today. What does that make Gerry Adams?
    
    Big deal.  Maggie Thatcher and the queen mother regularly visited
    and decorated British soldiers and their families in NI.  What does
    that make them?  What's your point?
    
    Britain wants the IRA to hand down their weapons before negotiation.
    Yet, British soldiers shoot unarmed civilians in NI.  If the British
    really want peace, they will negotiate now.  Any preconditions are
    just an inane excuse for continued occupation of Ireland.
    
    It's incredible that people in this conference are comparing body
    counts as if it makes a difference when the day is over.  The bottom
    line is that people are dying for stupid reasons.
    
    /George

    RE: .-1
    
    Don't get me wrong - I personally think that the IRA (as well as the
    British) should call a halt to all armed agression.  But I think it
    very ironic that on one hand the British say they won't talk until
    the IRA lay down their arms, yet on the other hand the British soldiers
    continue shooting civilians.
    
    The British soldier that shot the civilian today will probably get
    a 3-5 year suspended sentence and be back on patrol within a year's time.
    In fact, he might even get decorations and medals from the Queen.
    Compare that with a person with a "Gaelic" surname getting caught with
    a gun in NI and sentenced to 15 years.  It's ludicrous - a rather odd
    system of justice.
    
    /George

re.80:

I think you and I will have to differ on what we call facts. Your first point 
is conjecture, your third point appears to be pure fiction, as you offer no
supporting evidence. I also can not see how you came to your conclusion at the
end of your note.

re.82:

It is a big deal. It shows the true colours of Gerry Adams - an IRA man, and
justifies the British Government's PTA order.

The IRA are a terrorist organisation, they are cowardly scum, and no credible
politician would be seen mourning the loss of one of their number.

Dave.

re.83:

It's totally ludicrous to suggest that a British soldier could get decorated for
the unprovocated shooting of an unarmed civilian.

Dave.

    
>    Big deal.  Maggie Thatcher and the queen mother regularly visited
>    and decorated British soldiers and their families in NI.  What does
>    that make them?  What's your point?
 
     ..probably not people who take bombs into fish and chip shops. Keep
    equating the terrorists with the security forces, then rail at them
    for not abiding by trial procedures accepted in Boston. How balanced.
    

    
    Re Dave
    
    >It is a big deal. It shows the true colours of Gerry Adams - an IRA
    >man, and
    >politician would be seen mourning the loss of one of their number.
    
    Adams has never denied his support for the IRA but given the fact that
    he is from Belfast which is supposedly part of the UK and therfore
    makes him a UK citizen, how come he is barred from other parts of the
    the same country. Perhaps the north of Ireland is just a colony after
    all.
    
    Denis.

    > ... Keep
    >equating the terrorists with the security forces, then rail at them
    
    The British soldiers in NI are doing a good job at that themselves...
    no need to help them...
    
    >for not abiding by trial procedures accepted in Boston. How balanced.
    
    Explain to me why a person arrested for illegally possessing a gun
    should get a longer jail sentence than a person (take Ian Thain - a
    real life example) killing a unarmed civilian?  Enlighten me on that
    one.  How balanced and fair is this?
    
    /George                

   I'll tell you why. It's because the IRA, apart from a minimal border
   guerilla function, are a terrorist organization that follow no rules
   of engagement. They are out there to score a point by deliberately
   targetting civilians. They are no different from the Abu Nidal gang
   at whose training facilities in Libya they probably trained in the 80s 
   (Quaddafi's been quieter since the USAF raid). For you to continue
   to equate the security forces with the terrorists is simply the age
   old deiversion ploy by IRA apologists and excuse me if I sound a bit
   haughty here George, but I expected more from you, as I know you are
   no terrorist supporter. 

    I equate all the military forces in NI to each other (British Army,
    IRA, INLA, UFF, UVF, etc...) because they are all violent - and all
    promulgate violence as a means to peace, rather than dialogue,
    discussion, and comprimise.
    
    And sorry, but neither the Queen nor Adams are tops on my list.
    
    /g

    
    Then you equate the police with the criminal, yet are outraged at any
    hint the police might be adopting the criminal's ways. You would expect
    then that the Army would use all the power at its disposal, yet they
    do not. What is stopping them, do you think? 
    

    Well Chris, I am *not* an IRA apologist.  I believe their actions are
    violent, unwarranted, and completely counterproductive.
    
    I also believe that the British Army should *not* be in Ireland.  I
    believe their continued existence is counterproductive to peace in
    Ireland.  I am consistent in my views however.
     
    /George

    >Then you equate the police with the criminal, yet are outraged at any
    >hint the police might be adopting the criminal's ways. You would expect
    >then that the Army would use all the power at its disposal, yet they
    >do not. What is stopping them, do you think? 
    
    Probably international publicity is stopping them to an extent.  NI is
    a cold sore in British foreign policy.  They don't want to highlight an
    already irritating, seemingly untractable (to them) situation.  Just my
    opinion.

        In a book I have I found some interesting facts about 
        intercepted arms shipments to the IRA. I also found the 
        following paragraphs regarding NORAID. To keep a balance of 
        perspective I decided to post them here. Whilst it is known that 
        NORAID have supplied money and arms to the IRA, the level on 
        which this takes place is far less than thought by the British. 
        I for one was surprised.
        
        Simon

        The most significant force in Irish American politics is Noraid 
        - Irish Northern Aid, which was established in New York in 1969 
        by Michael Flanner, a veteran Republican who had emigrated to 
        the United States in 1927 after spending several years in jail 
        for pro-IRA activities. Noraid was officially  established to 
        raise money for humanitarian purposes, to relieve  the suffering 
        of Catholics hit by the war with the British. The organisation 
        collected funds in bars and clubs around America and in a series 
        of fund-raising events. It also acted as a focus for much of the 
        anti-British sentiment among Irish-Americans.
        
        Noraid swiftly grew to become a nation-wide organisation with 
        ninety-two chapters. As it became established, a myth grew up 
        that Noraid was the key organisation that was underwriting the 
        IRA. Without its support and the support of Americans, the IRA 
        would collapse for lack of funds and arms. It was clearly in the 
        interest of the IRA to perpetuate this myth: it showed that they 
        were supported by the world's biggest democracy. At the same 
        time, since the British government was anxious to undercut ant 
        potential broad support in the US Congress or even from an 
        American president to support the IRA, they played up Noraid's 
        significance and used the organisation as a stick with which to 
        beat successive US administrations for allowing Noraid to 
        support terrorism.
        
        In fact, the organisation has never been that important in IRA 
        affairs. They have never contributed more that around $250,000 
        and today out of an annual budget of around $7M, Noraid will 
        contribute less that $100,000.
        
        But, in the early days, Noraid did play a key role in getting 
        arms through to IRA, A large shipment arrived in 1970 from 
        Philadelphia which for the first time included AR-16 5.56mm 
        rifles. This was the armalite which became part if IRA legend. 
        With its twenty-round magazine, its great accuracy, and the 
        ability of some ammunition to penetrate light armour, it gave 
        the IRA a significant increase in capability. The AR-16 in its 
        Colt Commander version has a folding stock and is easily 
        concealed, another reason why it was so popular. This particular 
        weapon had not proved popular with the American military and was 
        an interesting example of how arms dealers will always find an 
        alternative market for a particular weapon.
        

  Your article is wrong about Noraid getting arms
  through to the IRA.  Noraid was/and is still a
  humanitarian organisation.  If as the article 
  claimed, Noraid had shipped arms from Philadelphia,
  the organisation would have been shut down by the
  FBI, end of story.  I'd like to see some proof to
  back up this British propoganda (like when the trial
  was held, and when was the organisation found guilty
  of this crime).  Since no such facts exists, I put
  to you that this is just more British disinformation.

  Here is a description pulled from the net sent by
  the national director of public relations for
  Irish Northern Aid. 
 

WHAT IS THE IRISH NORTHERN AID COMMITTEE?
        The Irish Northern Aid Committee is an American-based humanitarian
organization formed in 1970 to alleviate the suffering of the dependents
of Irish political prisoners. Today the families of more than 700 political
prisoners in Ireland, Britain and Europe rely on our all-volunteer
fundraising across American conducted on behalf of the charitable trusts,
An Cumann Cabrach in Dublin and Green Cross in Belfast.

Irish Northern Aid chapters are based in all metropolitan areas in the
country and work with Irish American, labor, religious, human and civil
rights groups and concerned individuals to promote an end to the conflict
the release of prisoners, and an end to the undemocratic British occupation
in the north of Ireland through the exercise of the democratic right to
national self-determination.

Irish Northern Aid promotes an American awareness of the nature of
British rule in Ireland and will highlight the colonial and sectarian
nature of partition and the British occupation as the inevitable cause
of the ongoing conflict in the north of Ireland.  Irish Northern Aid
seeks support for a free and independent, thirty-two county Irish
Republic governed in accordance with the Proclamation of the Irish
Repbulic issued on Easter 1916.

The Irish Northern Aid Committee is the largest American organization
concerned with the conflict in Ireland which is open to men and women
of any race, nationality or religion.

Educational materials and merchandise can be obtained by calling 1-800-IRELAND.
Media or political inquiries should be directed to:
Jack Kilroy
National Director of Public Relations
fax (216) 486-7472 or e-mail - [email protected]

For membership information send SASE to:
Irish Northern Aid Committee
363 Seventh Avenue
New York, NY 10001
Annual dues for at-large members are $40.00

    Mark
    
    What you meant to say was " Your article does not fit in with Mark
    Holohans views"  This does not make it wrong !!
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

     In a further move for peace the IRA Launched a rocket attack on a RUC
    LandRover,6 people were injured.Yesterday they launched a mortar attack
    on an Army base.
    
     I'm sure we'll all agree actions of a group seeking peace.
    
    
    SCott

    A Woman Soldier is fighting for her life today.she was shot by An IRA 
    Sniper in the neck and body.Her patrol returned fire.Two men were
    arrested,they had a loaded gun with them.


     SCott

    And on the same day, planted a bomb in a row of terraced houses in a
    Nationalist area hoping to catch an army patrol.
    Now when they resort to this sort of stupidity it's sad very sad.
    
    Bill

Re: Noraid

Was that book called "The Financing of Terror". The extract quoted
sounds very similar to a section in that book.

If so, the rest of article is very interesting in that it describes where the
IRA do get their money from. Most money comes from the British Govt., this
is collected by "taxes" in the drinking clubs (the dole paid by the Govt. is
spent there). Dole fraud is widespread. Racketeering on construction sites.
The IRA blow buildings up, the Govt. funds the rebuilding and "taxes" are
collected ...

I doubt that Noraid are responsible for funding the IRA because they are so
visible in the US and would be closed down pretty quickly if they were caught.
I think that type of fundraising still goes on but it's much more covert.
It's possible that the Noraid funds are only a small part of overall US
aid.

Mark

    
    I don't have any such doubt. The US govt is only concerned that Noraid
    plays by US tax and other laws. Once the money goes to Ireland, who
    knows what's done with it? Certainly not the US govt. They might see
    "Northern Irish neighbourhood group" or some such on the books, which,
    if they had the UK govt check it out, would turn out to be a 'charity'.
    Who then tells the US govt what is a charity versus a front laundry
    operation? 
    
    Actually, I believe from what I have read, that most IRA funding does
    come from the clubs in Belfast, but these are being whittled down by
    being charged on 'imputed income' versus what they declare, the rest
    going to the IRA, so the provos are in a bit of a cash crunch. Noraid
    funds have gone and do go to the IRA. If they pay a pension to a killed
    IRA man's family, that's 'going' to the IRA, but can be shown to be
    charity to poor widows too.
    

    

    The IRA has killed 3 people in the last few days,It has also knee
    capped 16 others.The punishment shootings are for petty criminals.


    SCott

    Let's not forget the UFF killed a Catholic man last night. Sickos.
    
    Laurie.

    Laurie,
    
    Maybe he was an IRA man!   You never know, the security forces may have
    informed the UFF of his political status, and handed them the weapons
    to do the job.
    
    
    

The recent talk of the role of Amnesty International has led me to consider
a couple of points: AI's role appears to be (correct me if I'm wrong) to
investigate and protest about the unfair treatment and imprisonment of those
suspected of wrongdoing.

Now, it seems to me, that if the IRA (and other paramilitaries) would
identify and turn over members guilty of unlawful killing of innocent civilians
it would remove the difficult task of finding those responsible and trying
to obtain adequate evidence to convict them.  This way, the justice system
would be far fairer, avoiding the necessity of juryless trials, wrongful
imprisonment, etc.  As an example, take the case of Lee Clegg; what would
have the reaction been if the Army had taken a similar stance to the
paramilitaries and refused to identify the culprit, offering a half baked
statement to the effect of `we're a bit sorry, but that's the way it is.'
Okay, it turned out to be something of a farce, what with the early release
and accusations of passing the buck, but it's a definite improvement over
just ignoring the issue and letting someone else look into it.

What are the views of the panel (excepting anti British tirades)?

Chris.

    
    
    >turn over members guilty of unlawful killing of innocent civilians
    
    turn over to who????...or to what???...
    
    rgs,
    
    mick

...to the legal system of their choice?

Chris.

    I think it would be great if any group (such as the IRA) aided in the
    capture and conviction of murderers, whoever they may be. But I don't
    think the British government should shirk accepted western democratic
    legal methods simply because they aren't happy with the conviction
    rate. Implementing juryless trials, detainment without arrest, home
    invasion, rat lines, etc. do more harm than good by alienating the
    communities.
    
    Had the Army not identified Clegg, the reaction may not have been as
    severe. But then the Army would have been accused of covering up
    for the actions of its soldiers. And that's a whole other can of
    worms.
    
    I think you forget that AI recognizes the British as the current
    legitimate power in Northern Ireland, and hence are on a different
    level than the different terrorist groups. And if that is so, then
    the British should be held responsible to ensure a fair, equal,
    humane, and open justice system.
    
    
    /george

My impression was that the reason juryless trials were introduced in NI 
was the difficulty of actually getting an unbiased jury due to the 
secretarian nature of the place and (correct me if I'm wrong) only 
implemented for terrorist offences. Intimidation of the jury was also a 
problem when they were introduced.

Any trial is better than no trial but I think the situation has now 
altered and such trials should be stopped.

AI has consistently criticized the British govt for its human rights
record and takes a stance of that human rights shouldn't be compromised
in any circumstances.  It takes this stance to ensure consistency in its
findings enabling it to have greater authority.

Two years ago AI amended its rules to allow it to campaign against the
human rights abuses of Non-Government Organisations (NROs).  The last I
heard was that it was still studying how to do this.  NROs by there
nature don't usually have a forwarding address!

 re. .110

  The AI 1994 report on the U.K. (political killings in northern Ireland)
  criticized the British forces (worst offenders), and the Loyalists, and
  the some actions of the Irish Republican Army.  It was obvious from the
  report though, where the real problems lie, and that was with the British
  forces.

                       Mark

Which IRA actions did it not criticise?  The non political ones, such
as murdering some kids at Warrington?  If AI don't criticise that, does
that make it alright in your mind?

Chris.

 re. .112
  Before you criticise Amnesty International, why don't you take the time
  to go to your local library and read one of their reports.  The only
  side AI takes in a conflict, is that of the people who are suffering.

  The AI reports are an eye opener.  Try opening your eyes.

                  Mark

I don't think anyone is denying that there have been human rights abuses by
the British Govt & it agents.

However, the IRA is not exactly in a position to be too critical.  How
about knee-capping & beatings given out to pretty criminals to start.

  My eyes are open, are yours?
  Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch are the ones being critical,
  and they are not, nor do they represent the Irish Republican Army.

                     Mark

    
    Re: .115 by ::HOLOHAN 
    
  >>My eyes are open, are yours?
    
    If you had another eye, you'd be a cyclops. ;^)

>  Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch are the ones being critical,
>  and they are not, nor do they represent the Irish Republican Army.

Who said they were?

My point was that those who support (& seem to rehash the propaganda of) the
IRA should not be harping on about the human rights abuses of the British
whilst that organisation is constantly committing human rights abuses itself.
They should leave that to organisations such as AI who do a very good job
of publicising such abuses.

>My point was that those who support (& seem to rehash the propaganda of) the
>IRA should not be harping on about the human rights abuses of the British
>whilst that organisation is constantly committing human rights abuses itself.
>They should leave that to organisations such as AI who do a very good job
>of publicising such abuses.


 I think you will find that the folks who are most vocal about human rights
 abusesby the British are not necessarily supporters of the IRA, but 
 perhaps the victims, and/or family members of victims from that British abuse.
 Are you saying that these victims of human rights abuse don't deserve to
 be heard, and don't have a right to point out the abuse that is occuring?

 Amnesty International, and Helsinki Watch are only two human rights
 organizations monitoring British injustice in northern Ireland. It's only
 British propoganda that tries to some how associate human rights organizations
 as "supporters of the IRA".

 As for the IRA, I've never heard them "harp" on about anything. 
 Their statements tend to be short and to the point.

                               Mark

    I now have a copy of the 1994 AI report. So far I have only had the
    time to quickly read it. There are some reports that concern me about
    the actions of security forces.
    In a 47 page report, 20 pages deal with collusion, but deal with two or
    three cases in detail.
    13 pages detail killings by armed groups. The final sentence of the
    report is, well I can't repost it, but it calls upon armed political
    groups to stop killing, torturing and taking hostages. I don't read it
    as the one-sided condemnation of the British Government that I was
    expecting.
    It is a balanced report listing much information and allegation. The
    press release which accompanied it is less so.
    
    Andrew