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Conference tallis::celt

Title:Celt Notefile
Moderator:TALLIS::DARCY
Created:Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1632
Total number of notes:20523

40.0. "celtic history" by SKYLRK::POLLAK (cluster buster) Tue Apr 22 1986 17:50

    
>*** CELT is a conference concerning Celtic culture ***

>Discussions include travel, geography, language, customs, traditions, sports,
>emmigration, music, folklore, politics, history, famous people, food, etc...
>Anything is fair play
    
    I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak for this, but here goes.
    <flame probably>
    The lead note stated this was a notes file about Celtic culture.
    After reviewing the file I found 3 notes that dealt with the subject
    and the rest about the glories of Ireland.
     Now don't get me wrong folks in spite of the name there is an
    irishperson in the past, but what has that got to do with Celtic
    culture?                                       
    <flame off>
    
     From what I learned about Celts is they lived in Europe for a time
    and where driven out by several competing tribes. The romans then
    attempted to finish them off but where only able to drive them into
    the hills of Ireland then where called home for other things.
     Also since the Celts where nomadic by nature little is know of
    them. The major portion of their art is preserved in the illuminated
    bibles that came out of the christian monasteries in Ireland. Also serveral
    very nice pieces are on display in the british museum from the
    Suttonhoe(sp?) collection.
     A sparce start, but then that's why this notesfile is here.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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40.1run that by me again ...ENGGSG::BURNSI&#039;ll paddle me&#039; own canoeWed Apr 23 1986 08:1410
    
    <flame on>
    
    HUH ??
    
    <flame off>
    
    
    keVin
    
40.2What do you means, "Celtic culture"?TSC01::MAILLARDWed Apr 23 1986 08:4123
    Re .0: Sorry not to agree with you, but the Celts were generally
    not nomads, quite a lot is known about their civilization, the Romans
    never set foot in Ireland (except for a few merchants), and several
    purely Celtic civilizations lasted much longer than the (Western)
    Roman empire, one of them in Ireland, where a Celtic tongue is still
    spoken by quite a few people, which might explain the fact that
    most of this file deals with Irish stuff. BTW, the Irish Gospell
    books are more Christian than Celtic, although they have a real
    Celtic touch in their writing and pictures (they're written in Latin).
    Some Irish monks were historians too and wrote in Irish in the middle
    age, long after the end of the Roman time.
    	I must had that Celtic cultural remains (in art, music, craft,
    litterature, etc...) can be found in many other places than Ireland.
    6 (six) Celtic tongues, most of them with several dialects, are
    still spoken today, although one (the Cornic) has been artificially
    revived. I refer to Irish, Scottish and Manx Gaelic, Welsh, Breton
    and Cornic.
    	Looks like you could use a little learning about Celts and Celtic
    culture. I don't see the need for such a flame in this conference.
    			Denis.
    
    
    
40.3apology on flamingSKYLRK::POLLAKcluster busterWed Apr 23 1986 15:4719
    relpy 1&2
    
    Sorry gang. Vagrancies of learning EVE after EDT. The flames should
    have occured elsewhere in note.
    
    Yet the problem remains to see something about celtic culture. Reply
    2 has the most meat so far. Please give use more.
    
    Yes several celtic tribes where nomadic some where not so. The Romans
    first had to deal with the Celts as an enemy, later as an ally.
    It's interesting to note that the romans found certain celtic tribes
    to be excellent horsemen and the best roman calvary was celtic.
     The romans generals where also mystied by the celts ability with
    numbers. During marches the tribes would be accompanied by a large
    pack of hounds. The romans could only see them as a lot of dogs,
    yet the celts could maintain a count of the beasts such that they
    could tell if a dog was missing. This from a crush of a couple hundred
    dogs on a large march!
     
40.4"Nomadic" Celts.TSC01::MAILLARDThu Apr 24 1986 07:5346
    Re .3: The situation you're writing about is very limited in area
    and time: you're describing the Western Celts (Northern Italia,
    France, Switzerland, Belgium and part of Spain, the case of the
    Celts of the British Isles and of the Eastern Celts was different),
    at the time of the Roman expansion (roughly 300 B.C. to 100 or 200
    A.D.), while Celtic history spans on a much wider area and from
    roughly 1500 B.C. to our days....
    	What's more, the Celtic tribes were not nomadic. They were seden-
    tary (sp?), though one or several tribes could sometimes migrate when
    their agricultural lands were exhausted (farmers are NOT nomads,
    the Gauls invented -or were among the first users of- the plough).
    For a given tribe, this has been historically recorded less frequently
    than once every 50 years on the average, not what could be called
    a nomadic life. Also the Celts had villages and even cities (villages
    only in Ireland), which isn't really a nomad characteristic. They
    were great traders (which imply, that's true, that a few of them
    moved a lot, but the Greeks and the Carthaginians, who were even
    bigger traders, were never qualified nomads, because they usually
    as well as the Celts, didn't take their famillies with them in their
    trading tours). The Gauls were also known for their wines and were
    the inventors of the wood barrel: it takes at least 5 years to harvest
    the first grapes on a vine after you've planted it, during which
    time you must be there to take care of it...
    What is true is that when a Celtic tribe decided to move, it was
    a very big event, and often put other tribes on the move as well,
    resulting in such troubles that the Greek and Roman historians took
    notice of it (e.g.: the Gaul Tumult -not sure of the English trans-
    lation, Tumulte Gaulois in French- under the command of Brennus
    during which the Gauls took Rome -the Vae Victis anecdote- and then
    Delphes in Greece). It was one of these move, or rather a try at
    it, by the Helvets, that Caesar used for pretext to invade Gaule.
    	The Celts were, as you said, great horsemen, but also among
    the best foot soldiers of that time and were employed as mercenaries
    in the whole of middle east during all the Hellenistic period. Their
    big problem was that, as tribes they lacked the discipline and organi-
    zation needed to take advantage of their militry qualities. That's
    what allowed the Romans to conquer them (not easily, it took 2.5
    centuries to conquer Northern Italia, Gaul, Spain and Britain, and
    the Pictish border in Britain was never a quiet one).
     As for the cultural remains of that period there are thousands
    of them (broochs, weapons, tools, trinkets, coins, sculpture, etc...),
    the best known of which are the Battersea Shield and the Gundestrup
    Cauldron.
    	That's all I remember on the spot, but I could have a look at
    my Celtic archaeologyy books if you want more informations.
    			Denis.
40.5Dhia duit!BRAHMS::DARCYGeorge DarcyMon May 05 1986 18:2624
	Hello, I suppose I should introduce myself.  My name is
	George Darcy and I work in Littleton MA USA with the
	Nautilus team (VAX 8800) doing behavioral modelling.

	My ancestors were mostly from Ireland, and a few from France
	and Denmark.  I've been to Ireland several times and am in my
	third year of Irish (Gaelic), although you wouldn't know it :v)
	It's really difficult to learn, especially since there are very few
	people who are fluent in the states.  French was a lot easier...

	There were other culture-oriented notesfiles on the ENET,
	but none to do with Celtic studies, be it Irish or whatever.
	So I said, what the heck, its only a little disk space :v)

	I have relatives in various parts of Ireland, although some
	some ancestor-lines completely emmigrated or died out.

	There's the Darcys from Ballinasloe, Malloys and Connors from
	Oughterrard, McManus and Griffins from Roscommon, Joyces and
	and Hennesseys and Goulds in and around Cork.  My French connection
	is the name Paris from Belfort (near Swiss.).  Anyone out there with
	similarly named ancestors??

	George
40.6Back to the PastKRYPTN::RENSINGMon May 12 1986 17:3924
    I added this conference to my notesfiles in hopes that it would
    enlighten me in the ways of Celtic history and culture primarily
    because I am a member of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism)
    and my preferred persona is a young Celtic lady in and around the
    early Middle Ages.  In order for me to develop an accurate persona,
    knowledge of history and culture is most important.  I must say
    that to find so much on present day Ireland was slightly disappointing.
    
    It is not that I am not interested in Ireland today... indeed I
    would not have chosen a persona from a place such as the British
    Isles if I did not find it intriguing today.  However, as this
    particular note is about, I too am very interested in finding out
    more about the culture and history of the Celtic people.  I found
    .2 and .4 VERY informative and would love to see more.  As we have
    seen from notes .1 and .2 there are several misconceptions that
    could use some enlightenment regarding culture and history.
    
    Keep giving us more, please!  We thirst for knowledge.
    
    Regards,
    Aislin  (SCA personna name)
    
    Dale  (mudane name [everday])
    
40.7TSC01::MAILLARDTue May 13 1986 07:259
    Re .6: The books I mentionned in .4 are mostly in French and deal
    with all the Celtic history. You should probably look for books
    about early Irish history, Brehon Law, Irish archaeology and sociology
    etc... Maybe even Irish mythology though, in the early middle age,
    Ireland was already christian. I haven't any reference in my mind
    at the moment but it's quite easy to find books about the Celtic
    period of the country's history in Ireland and I suppose that most
    of them can be ordored from the US.
    			Denis.
40.8Il y a longtemps que j'ai parle' la langueKRYPTN::RENSINGTue May 13 1986 09:285
    Hm, looks like I may have to brush up on my francais.  Thank you
    for the information.
    
    Aislin