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Conference rusure::math

Title:Mathematics at DEC
Moderator:RUSURE::EDP
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2083
Total number of notes:14613

1214.0. "Quantifier question" by EAGLE1::BEST (R D Best, sys arch, I/O) Tue Mar 27 1990 14:57

How do I invert the quantifier

	For all x, there exists a y such that P(x,y) ?

Is it

	There exists an x such that ( for all y,  - P(x,y) ) ?

or

	There exist x and y such that  -P(x,y) ?

or something else ?

Do I have to do something like invert the order of the variables
(e.g. 'There exists a y such that, for all x ...') ?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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1214.1AITG::DERAMODan D'Eramo, nice personTue Mar 27 1990 18:1717
        Use the equivalences: not for all x not <==> the exists an x
        		      not there exists a y not <==> for all y
        		      not not <==>
        
        So
        
        	for all x, there exists a y such that P(x,y)
        <==>
        	not there exists an x not not for all y not P(x,y)
        <==>
        	not there exists an x for all y not P(x,y)
        
        So the negation of that will be just
        
        	there exists an x such that for all y, not P(x,y)
        
        Dan
1214.2JARETH::EDPAlways mount a scratch monkey.Tue Mar 27 1990 18:1813
    Re .0:
    
    I don't think you can simply invert the quantifiers.  Why do you want
    to?  If you just want "there exists" to appear for "for all", you can
    write the statement as:
    
    	- (there exists an x such that (for all y, -P(x,y))).
    
    Note that the first possibility you wrote is actually the negation of
    the original statement; the statement above is equivalent to the
    original.
    
    				-- edp
1214.3AITG::DERAMODan D&#039;Eramo, nice personTue Mar 27 1990 18:2517
        Essentially, a not can trade places with a for_all or a
        there_exists if in doing so it flips the quantifier to
        the other kind.
        
        not		for_all x there_exist y p(x,y)
           not		for_all x there_exist y p(x,y)
              not       for_all x there_exist y p(x,y)
                 not    for_all x there_exist y p(x,y)
                    not for_all x there_exist y p(x,y)
        		B U M P !
        	    there_exists x not there_exist y p(x,y)
        		B U M P !
        	    there_exists x for_all y not P(x,y)
        
        The running start helps but isn't necessary. :-)
        
        Dan