Conference rocks::weight_control

    A note of caution.  If you have a delicate system you will find
    that all that fruit on day one will hit you hard.  This is similar
    to the Beverly Hills Diet which has been shown to be nutritionally
    deficient.

    I don't have a delicate system, but that day of all fruit really
    does take a toll on you.  I ended up eating some crackers also anyway
    since I was feeling really strung out.
    

    Hey Jeff!!!!
    
    
         *******  GOOD LUCK  *******

I remember a friend of mine doing the Beverly Hills diet several years ago.
It does sound a lot like this.  I remember the soup, which she let me try.
It was really good, and I wouldn't mind eating a lot of it (maybe even
cold, like gazpacho) in addition to a sensible weight loss plan.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Jill

    
    re .1
    
    Let's hear what you heard about Beverly Hills Diet not being
    nutritional.
    I lost 16 lbs on it and felt great the whole time.
    
    Thanks in advance.

    Be aware of the gastric problems with cabbage!
    
    I personally love the soup (please send another copy of it, I lost
    mine), but if you plan on being in public, be careful how much you
    eat, as it could be embarrassing!
    
    Mary-Lynn

    Please, please, please!  If you get the chance in the very near
    future to type in the recipe and the diet scheme.  I have a couple
    of big weekends coming up at the end of the month and want to look
    my best, or least a little better than where I am at now!
    
    If there is a problem with fatigue, could you try taking a
    multi-vitamin and some B-complex?  i know that without my vitamins
    even if I am in shape I am cranky, lazy, and just don't feel "with
    it."
    
    Keep up posted on your progress!  Go for it!!
    
    Leigh

    
    I have sort of drifted off the diet lately, but I am still trying
    to eat mostly fruits and vegetables, and it's working.  I was 
    254� this morning, after working out.  I'm trying to get back in
    the three-times-a-week Nautilus habit.
    
    I'll try to bring the diet in tomorrow to type in.  My home setup
    is on the blink.  The soup really is great.  Also eating lots of
    cold fruits and veggies is a great way to keep cool in this ridiculous
    weather.
    
    Thanks for all the encouragement, folks, and good luck to you all
    too.
    
    						-Jeff
    

    Ok, here it is, the "Dave Maynard" diet.
    
    Reprinted without permission, from 
    
    WBZ Radio 1030 - Group W - Westinghouse Broadcasting and Cable, inc.
    1170 Soldiers Field Road Boston MA 02132 Telephone 787-7000
    
    
    
    ONLY TEA AND COFFEE PLAIN		DRINK LOTS OF WATER
    
    Lose 10-17 lbs. and feel like a million in only 7 days.  One of
    the secrets of the effectiveness of this 7-day plan is that the
    foods eaten burn more calories that they give to the body in caloric
    value.  *So eat as much as you want*.  This 7-day plan can be used
    as often as you like without fear of feeling ill.  As a matter of
    fact, if followed correctly, if will flush your system of impurities
    and give you a feeling of well-being you never thought possible.
    After only 7 days of this program, you will begin to feel lighter
    because you will *be* lighter by at least 10-17 lbs. and have an
    abundance of energy.  Continue this plan as long as you wish and
    notice the difference in both mental and physical disposition...
    
    DAY ONE: All fruts (except bananas).  Your first day will consist
    of all the fruit you want, except bananas.  For all you melon lovers,
    this is just the day for you.  Two fruits which are lower in calories
    than most other fruit are watermelon and cantaloupe.  Should you
    eat only the melons, your chances of losing 3 lbs. the first day
    is great...
    
    DAY TWO: All vegetables.  Eat until you are stuffed with all the
    fresh, raw or cooked vegetables of your choice.  Try to eat green
    leafy veggies and stay away from veggies such as dry beans, peas
    and corn.  These veggies are good for you but not if you are trying
    to reduce your cloric intake (and you are!)...So eat as much of
    any other veggie as you wish.  SURPRISE!  you may eat a large baked
    potato with a pat of butter on your vegetable day...
    
    DAY THREE: Fruit and vegetables...Same as Day 1 and Day 2 except
    potato...
    
    DAY FOUR:  Bananas and skim milk.  Eat as many as 6 bananas and
    drink as many as 3 glasses of skim milk on this day.  Along with
    our **T-J Soup.**  I am sure you have heard that bananas are very
    high in calories and carbohydrates.  They are, and so is milk, but
    on this particular day, your body will need these essential
    carbohydrates, proteins and calcium which will lessen any cravings
    for sweets...
    
    DAY FIVE:  Beef and tomatoes.  You may have 10 or 12 oz. of beef
    and 6 tomatoes on your fifth day.  Try to drink at least 8 glasses
    of water in order to wash away the uric acid in the body.
    
    DAY SIX:  Beef and veggies.  Eat to your heart's content of beef
    and vegetables.  However, no potatoes, please...
    
    DAY SEVEN: Brown rice, fruit juice (unsweetened) and vegetables.
    Again, stuff, stuff...
    
    **T-J MIRACLE SOUP**:  6 large onions, 2 green peppers, whole tomatoes
    (Fresh or canned), 1 large head of cabbage, large buch of celery,
    season with dry onion soup mix or other herb seasoning if you wish.
    Cut veggiesinto medium pieces and boil, covered with water, until
    the veggies are tender...
    
    **T-J MIRABLE SOUP** can be eaten at any time of day and at any
    time you feel hungry.  This soul will not add calories, so you eat
    all you want!  The more you eat, the more you lose...You can eat
    this soup 7 days a week; unlimited times a day...
    For 3 people a supply of soup can last several days.  Use 27 ozs.
    of water, 4 envelopes of Lipton Onion Soup mix, 1/2 bunch of celery,
    1 large cabbage, 1 large onion, 1 bag of carrots, 1 large can crushed
    tomatoes, 2 red peppers.  More veggies such as turnip, green beans,
    cauliflower, etc. can be added to taste.
    
    
    

    Well, there it is.  Be advised that I haven't made it all the way
    through the 7 days yet.  I might start over next week.
    
    Also, the T-J soup comes out great in the pressure cooker.  I make
    a big batch and the reheat in the microwave.
    
    

    RE: 47.9, last 2 paragraphs.
    
    Thanks for the "DMD". I plan to try it the week after next (I am
    trying the 3-day diet this week, and am in a training course -
    which will probably compensate for any weight lost this week - all
    of next week.)
    
    I have one question regarding the soup: are you giving two recipes
    or only one? the ingredients are not entirely the same, and I don't
    know if both have the same effect, eg:
    
    Soup 1				Soup 2
    
    6 onions				1 onion
    2 green peppers			2 red peppers
    whole tomatoes			crushed tomatoes
    cabbage				cabbage
    celery				...
    					carrots
    					optional: turnip, green beans,
    	      						cauliflower 
    
    Can you help?
    
    Regards,    Joana

    Also awaiting the answer to 47.11 question...
    
    In addition, does anyone know if there is any acceptable
    substitution (or elimination) for the skim milk??  I simply
    hate milk products, and could easily eliminate that part
    all together.  However, if it is truly essential to the
    success of the diet, I'd like to know.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jacki
    

    re .11, .12
    
    I just typed it in verbatim, all I know is what's there.
    
    The soup recipe is confusing, but it really doesn't matter as far
    as I can see.  You can probably throw in whatever you want that's
    listed there.
    
    Re eliminating the milk: Got me, all I know is what's there.  If
    you want another inexpert but experienced opinion, call 254-5678
    between 6:00 and 10:00 am and ask for Dave.  Tune in to 1030 Khz
    to hear how ridiculous you sound on the radio.
    
    8-)

    I'm new to this file, but I couldn't resist replying when I saw
    this note.  
    
    My family and I went on this diet in January.  I ended up losing
    about 4 pounds the week I was on it, but my Dad lost a lot more.
    (About 8, I think.) I guess this is because he's bigger than I am.
     Anyway, I had never had cabbage soup, but nothing I had ever eaten
    could compare with how bad this was.  I thought I could stick it
    out, but after my second helping of the stuff, I just couldn't hack
    it anymore.  This could be another reason my Dad lost more.  He
    loved the soup.
    
    The diet isn't that bad.  I don't remember being hungry at all.
    The main problem was that by the morning of the third day, I was
    really craving meat.
    
    I'll probably try the diet again this summer.
    
    Helen

    Hi folks,
    
    Well, if anyone is still reading this particular note, I'd
    like to hear from anyone else who has tried this diet. 
    
    I started it yesterday. I didn't have any major problems
    on day 1 - fruit day. Today, however, I find myself *really*
    craving carbohydrates...Of course, this is a weak spot of mine,
    anyway, but...
    
    My roommate is trying this out, too, but she started 3 days before
    I did. I also find that I feel like I have a mild stomach ache
    pretty much all the time. For this reason, I may not make it through
    all 7 days. 
    
    Well, we'll see...
    

    Hmmm, 
    
    Over a year and no new replies in here. Well for what it's worth I've
    been following this diet over the last 13 days and, although I've
    cheated a bit I'm down almost 12 pounds.
    
    Anyone else?
    
    Mike

    
    I'm not sure why this note doesn't get more attention.  I'm on my 7th
    day of the diet, and I'm down 7 or 8 pounds, approximately as promised.
    
    I also had a nurse look it over, and she had no serious concerns about
    it.  
    
    The diet seems to work because it eliminates almost all fat from the
    diet.  I find it confusing in one respect:
    
    	-  The T-J soup may be eaten at any time and in any quantity
    	   desired.
    
    	-  The T-J soup is basically Ministrone without the carbo's, 
    	   meat, or salt.  btw, it *is* quite good.
    
        -  What's the difference between an all fruit day and a fruit
    	   and vegetable day if you can have as much vegetable soup as
    	   you like with your fruit???
    
    Anyway, the bottom line is that the diet really works, and the best
    part is that you never go hungry; you can always eat as much as you
    like (just not _whatever_ you like).
    
       /jim
    
    p.s.  I think I've probably eaten more good food this week than in
          any week of the last 5 years!  This is a good time of year to
          try this diet: when the supply of good fruits and veggies is
    	  plentiful.
    

    
    btw, on the 1st beef and tomato day I made a vegetable curry with
    tenderloin and fresh-picked tomatoes, then threw in other veggies
    (since they can go into the T-J soup anyway).  Really good!
    
    Breakfast with just beef and tomatoes was a little wierd, but cooked
    and sliced roast beef around tomatoes with fresh pepper tastes better
    than it sounds.
    
    Too bad the fruit day doesn't follow the bananna day   ;)
    
    /jim
    

    My GOD!  I just read the basenote.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone
    who has had success with this diet, but this has to be one of the
    unhealthiest diets I've read about in a LONG time.
    
    Anyway, to -.1, I'll say what I said to someone else recently; a diet
    is not a "sucess" until 6 months *after* you've lost and kept off the
    weight you wanted to lose.
    
    D!

    
    re: -.1
    
        well, since this is a free country, we're each entitled to our
        points of view...  but unlimited veggies with fruit and meat is 
        still pretty healthy in my book.  No fat & packed with vitamins.
    
        we've all heard about unhealthy diets consisting of hot dogs
        n times a week, etc., and are conditioned to be suspicious of
        any diet of 1 week duration.
    
        note that I don't consider this to be a sustainable diet, nor
        a replacement for sensible eating in general; but as a way to
        lose 10 lbs within a week, I haven't seen a better or healthier
        way (please, no replies about running 50 miles a day).
    
    /jim
      

    Eh, if it's only for a week (I didn't get that for the basenote) then
    it's not so bad (though I would never do it.)  I was trying to imagine
    doing this diet for, say, the time it would take to lose 40 lb (the
    amount I lost) - and that was the "MY GOD."
    
    Unlimited fruits and vegetables isn't bad.  but you only get
    meat/protein on *some* days, and you eat hardly any complex
    carbohydrates.  That violates all the standard nutritional guidelines. 
    Maybe it's better than eaten a fat-laden vitamin-free diet of hot-dogs
    and potato chips, but not much.
    
    re: harsh... "oh well".  TWYLALTR.
    
    D!
    

    >You can get protein from veggies and not just meat
    
    Eh?  Which veggies?
    
    As far as I know, the only sources of significant protein are meat,
    milk, eggs, beans, grains and nuts.
    
    D!

    I'll look up avocado at home but I believe is it mostly fat, with
    little in the way of carbohydrates or protein.
    
    D!
    
    PS: BTW, technically speaking, avocado is a fruit.  Not that that is
    relevent to the discussion at all....
    

    Just looked up the referenced note in ROCKS::VEGETARIANISM.
    
    Firstly, the article posted is not "known fact" but actually a
    contested theory.
    
    Secondly, the article was about *plant* proteins - the contention was
    that all plants contain protein, and that it is a myth that ones needs
    "balanced proteins" (where traditionally it was believed that, for
    instance, one needs the types of proteins in grain *and* beans if one
    is to get a "complete protein" from a vegetarian diet.)
    
    "Plant" proteins include beans, legumes, grains, etc...which are not
    considered "vegetables" on the diet in question (I assume.)  
    
    The article explicitly states that protein deficiency can occur when
    one eats a diet that doesn't include enough substantial food to provide
    enough protein.  
    
    In other words, yes, all plants have protein (which I never would
    disagree with.)  however, my statement was that *vegetables* (esp of
    the type considered "vegetables" by diets) don't contain a
    *significant* amoutn of protein - ie: enough to sustain you.
    
    The article claims that brocolli is 30% protein (presumably by
    calories, and not weight, since brocolli like all vegetables is
    primarily water by weight), which may be true, but that doesn't
    indicate how much brocolli you'd have to eat to get enough protein.  
    
    The article specifically says that if one doesn't eat enough, that the
    protein is used for energy instead of tissue - which is the case if you
    are eating only vegetables.  It also states that a fruit-based diet is
    likely to be protein-deficient (which this diet has days of.)
    
    A diet with no protein-rich sources (which doesn't mean meat or
    non-plant sources) is protein-deficient.
    
    D!

    re: proteins
    
    Only proteins from animal flesh are "complete."  Proteins from sources
    like legumes (eg: kidney beans) are incomplete and need to be eaten
    with a complementary protein within 12-24 hours to do your body any
    good.
    
    
    re: complex carbohydrates
    
    Vegetables do typically contain some amount of complex and simple
    carbohydrates. They're not as densely packes as grains, though.

    FWIW, the diet in .0 sounds like a nutritional nightmare.
    
    Remember that weight loss is not the best indicator of how good a
    diet is for your body.
    
    
.17> I also had a nurse look it over, and she had no serious concerns about it. 
    
    Nurses are like engineers.  An electrical engineer can look at the
    plans for an unsafe bridge and see nothing wrong with them. That's a
    job for a mechanical engineer.
    
    Show the diet to a nurse who specialized in nutrition.  And remember
    to bring your earplugs.

.26> I'll look up avocado at home but I believe is it mostly fat, with
    
    Correct.  Avocados are an unusual fruit ... very high in fat.

	Donna,

	Beans contain protein, but are not a complete protein.

	"Protein" is actually a collective term for a set of (I believe)
	22 amino acids.  Beans contain some of the 22 amino acids, but
	not all.  Grains also contain some of the amino acids, but not
	all.  To make a complete protein, you need to combine the beans
	with grains to get the full group of amino acids.  Thus, you'll
	see that many bean dishes are served with rice.

	Karen

    The note Donna references, though, postulates (complete with lots of
    scientific-sounding explanations) that the long-held claims about
    "complete proteins" is not true.
    
    I'd need a lot more than one article to disbelieve what is "common
    knowledge" in the nutritional fields (grains and beans providing
    complementary proteins, animal flesh providing complete proteins) but
    it has at least been called in to question, and anyone who cares about
    such things (I don't, in particular, since I do eat meat, and also rice
    *and* beans) should read the article before stating definitively that
    "beans don't provide a complete protein."
    
    Either way, the article does not address in any way my claim that the
    diet referenced in .0 does not provide enough protein.  It doesn't.
    
    D!

    >I'm quite certain you wouldn't believe anything I put in here.
    
    Hmmmm....
    
    D!

.31> I beg to differ about the only "complete" protein being from animal
.31> flesh.  Beans etc. have plenty of protein.  How about reading further
.31> into note 26 in the vegatarian notesfile and not just the first note. 
    
    Are you talking to me?  I didn't read ::VEGETARIAN at all.
    
    But, if you point me directly to the note that claims beans are a
    complete protein, I'll go read it.

    
    
    FWIW:  Donna I do agree with you.
    
    Alot of research has been done, about complimentary proteins and not
    having to combine foods all that closely.  I have done lots of reading
    on the subject.  I am a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) and am very concious
    about what I eat.  Without being armed with my plethora of books for
    backing, I won't add any specifics.  But I will add that the meat
    industry has lead us falsely lead us to believe that the only way to
    get protein is from meat (which is incorrect, there are plenty of other
    sources of protein).  Also they have falsely lead us to believe that we
    need to much protein, thus supporting their industry, when in actuality
    our bodies need alot less protein then they recommend.  Take a look at
    the new food pyramid breads and grains 6-11 servings a day, then fruits
    and vegetables.  The meat industry has us so brainwashed that anything 
    different is viewed as unacceptable, and people are unwilling to change.  
    If you read a little of Dean Ornish and others, maybe you'd get a new 
    idea about eating.  Not that I agree with everything that I read, but 
    there are some very interesting studies that have taken place, and new 
    findings and I am very open to change my attitude to new research vs. 
    the old school of thinking.  I plan on living a long healthy, quality 
    life, and I will do everything in my power to keep it that way.  Lowfat 
    diet and excercise are key to good health. 
    
    Re:-1  I don't believe that Donna said that BEAN were a complete
    protein, just that they have plenty of protein.
    
    BTW:  I definately think that the diet in question is very unhealthy. 
    Where are the 6-11 servings of complex carbohydrates that are
    recommended daily ?
    
    Off my soapbox.  Donna you are on the right track, and I'm behind you!
    
    
    Wishing you all good health,
    Laurie O
    

    .38 A big THANK YOU.  I agree with you, and no, I don't think this diet
    would be too healthy over the long haul. 
    
    Donna 

    re: recommended protein...
    
    Yes, the meat lobby was a big part of that old "4-4-3-2" that I was
    taught about nutrition in elementary school.  (Four servings of bread,
    four of fruit/veg, 3 of meat and eggs, 2 of milk and cheese).
    
    Based on the latest information in "common nutrition", I believe the
    recommended intake of protein is 10-15% of total calories (I can double
    check.)
    
    For a 2000 calorie diet, that is 200-300 calories worth of protein or
    50-75 grams of protein.
    
    Off the top of my head, an ounce of chicken has about 9 grams of
    protein, an ounce dry beans (2 oz cooked?) about 7, and an ounce of
    brown rice about 4 (I think that's right, if not, it's close).
    
    So - those are all perfectly reasonable sources of protein, and no,
    there's no requirement to eat meat or animal products to get it.
    
    But - what I read Donna to be saying is that *vegetables* provide
    enough protein, and I've yet to see any evidence (even in the article
    she references) to support that.
    
    I'm certainly willing to believe that the meat lobby has affected the
    government recommendations for nutrition to be protein heavy.  If you
    think the 10-15% figure is high, then what do you think it is?  What
    would the requirements for protein for, say, an average hieght/weight
    30 year old woman be?
    
    If you agree with most nutritionists about the 50-70 grams or so, then
    the diet referenced in .0 is protein defficient which is *all I was
    saying*.
    
    I'm still very confused about what Donna is so upset at me about.  My
    only claim was that there isn't enough protein in the diet, and that
    the article she references (even if it is correct!) doesn't say
    otherwise.
    
    D!

    I have been reading this note and chuckling to myself. A little. The
    base note refers to a one week diet to get a jump start on losing
    weight. 
    
    I don't think one week will kill most people. Gosh, when you think about
    what we usually do to ourselves on a one week vacation or the week
    between Christmas and New Year, I think you'll understand what I mean.
    
    The diet is unheathy over the long haul. Your body should be fed a
    relatively balanced diet from one day to the next to maintain it's
    rhythm of processing, cleansing, healing and fueling. The prinicples of
    this diet are to kick start several internal processes that might have
    become sluggish.
    
    The topic of protein and vegetarianism is getting emotional and it
    needn't be. If you choose to get all your protein from one source and
    you have no apparent deficiencies, then it could be the appropriate
    choice for you. But if your hair and nails get brittle, you're tired
    and you are getting forgetful, you may want to revisit your nutritional
    plan! I think all bodies work slightly differently due to genetics and
    environmental conditions and no one plan is perfect for anyone. Just as
    an example, my father has always had really low blood pressure and low
    cholesteral, but he's had two heart attacks. So much for science.
    
    I hate to see people getting really upset in this conference!
    
    Life is for living, not arguing!
    
    Cheers to all,
    Amy

	Laurie and Donna,
	
	I can appreciate you not wanting to drag out all of your
	books to back up what you've read, but do you think you could
	give references to a title or two ? 

	I ask because, as a personal trainer, I try to keep up on the
	latest research, and although I would not prescribe a diet for
	someone, I would provide nutritional guidelines.  If there's new
	research stating that you don't need to combine beans with grains
	to get adequate protein, I'd like to read it.

	FWIW, my source (besides the numerous training courses that I've
	taken), is the Wellness Encyclopedia, by the University of California,
	Berkeley.

	Karen

    I was driving home last night thinking - hmmm, this topic is clearly
    pushing some emotional buttons for some people here, what's going on? 
    I never would have thought "protein", of all things, would be an
    emotional topic, but I guess for some people it is - why?
    
    Then I came in and read -.2 and it clicked - ah, it must be a
    vegetarian thing - I know many vegetarians have to constantly defend
    themselves against claims that their diets are low in protein, and
    answer stupid questions about "Gee, you don't eat meat - what do you
    eat??", etc.  So I suppose I can see that something as simple as
    "protein" (a collection of amino acids) could develop some emotional
    baggage.
    
    So - to clarify - I am not addressing the topic of vegetarianism, nor
    am I under the misconception that one must eat animal products to eat a
    healthy diet.  The base note, in fact, is pretty far from vegetarian.
    (All beef some days....)
    
    And, since protein is simply one aspect of nutrition for me (and
    nutrition is a hobby of mine, of sorts), and is *not* emotionally
    loaded, I'll bow out of discussing protein - it's no biggie to me.  (I
    don't worry about protein in my own diet, even when I am not eating
    meat [I go through phases of pseudo-vegetarianism] because I eat enough
    eggs, cheese, beans and whole grains to provide me with *more* than
    enough protein without even thinking about it.)
    
    D!

    
    
    Re:  D
    
    Yes you make some very good points and I don't disagree with your
    10%-15% daily total intake.  That's about the break down of my diet. 
    
    I normally very much agree with your inputs, Karen's and Mike Z.'s for 
    that matter.  I just felt that Donna was getting beat up for what she felt,
    and she does make some good points also.  
    
    Re: Amy....
    
    I was also chuckling to myself with where this note was going, but I
    had to open my big mouth, and stick up a little for my friend Donna.
    
    Re: Karen...
    
    Yes I will be glad to share with you my reading list.  It may take a
    couple of days (I'm not home to night or tomorrow) and a couple books
    have been returned to the Library.  Off the top of my head:
    
    Dean Ornish   - Eat more, weigh less
    not sure of the author (will check tonight)  - The 10% solution
    
    About food combining all that I have read is that it is not AS
    necessary as once thought to be as careful about food combining.  But I
    find that by just what tastes good together food combining comes naturally 
    anyway (like rice and beans...) I don't think that I would just sit down 
    and eat a bowl of beans.  I most always have whole wheat bread, pasta, rice
    etc. at every meal anyway.
    
    Health and nutrition have been a hobby for a long time, I have done
    alot of reading, and will continue to read alot on the subject.  I by
    no way consider myself an expert or even close, but I do feel that
    there are better ways to eat for health and nutrition other than the
    old ways that were drilled in our heads as we were growing up.
    
    Laurie O
    

    
    
    re: D
    
    For me it's not defending myself about being a vegetarian.  I just am
    because I can honestly say that I don't like meat.  Not for any other
    reason, and I'm not on a band wagon about that.  Dietary choices are
    individual.  And if you or anyone else eats meat thats fine, the rest
    of my family eat meat that's their decision and I respect that.
    
    I don't know, this topic got way off the subject of the diet in
    question, that's all I know... (which I still don't feel is very
    healthy over the long haul).
    
    But different opinions are what makes the world go 'round.  I'm not
    saying that I'm right.  I'm right for me, and that's all that matters
    to me.  
    
    Imagine how boring it would be if everyone had the same opinion ???
    
    We wouldn't have discussions like this...
    
    Have a good day,
    
    Laurie O
                                                                    

	Laurie,

	I guess I didn't feel Donna was being beat up.  I felt as though
	Donna attacked D! for her note, then continued to get upset at
	each response D! wrote.

	I think most people here are trying to dispel the old myths about
	diet and nutrition, and help people to break the "miracle diet" habits.

	I honestly feel these one-week diet plans are harmful, not solely
	because they are not nutritionally balanced, but because they
	perpetuate the "diet" mentality.  

	Also, if I remember correctly, the original notes in this topic
	implied you could continue this diet as long as desired.

	Karen


	

    I remember when I first joined this conference and progress, uhm, about
    a year or so ago...  I was really depressed about my weight, I was
    seriously out of control, joined a weight loss program and was in
    search of support.  Well, I found it 8-).
    
    I came in one day and there was a discussion similar to this going on
    and I thought it was a little harsh.  As I kept going this nameless
    person kept countering everything everybody said.  "noname" asked pointed 
    and what appeared to be direct attack questions.  There were several
    others who appeared to me, to have rule over the conference.  There
    were some who had the only answer. Because I was at a sensitive stage, I 
    decided to be a read only.
    
    I entered notes in NH_notesfile and boy I've never walked away so battered
    and bruised.  A simple question about fear of flying, dogs and hiking,
    shools, could at times really be demoralizing.
    
    And other notes.  I fall asleep during some conferences that go... he
    said, she said, or I believe this is what he meant to say, no, he meant
    to say she really meant....I was always amazed and still remain so, when a
    fellow employee "attacks" *my* statement, *my* theory, *my* ideas ;-)
    
    and, *my* became a key word.  I've come to realize that any note entered
    into any conference is subject to discussion. Even some very harsh
    responses.  
    
    Because I have a friend who lives outside the country I'm more aware of
    the freedoms we have here.  While I don't always agree, am hurt by,
    alarmed or mortified by.... it is that persons right to respond to my
    dicussion with *stupid and inane responses* ;^) IMHOP 8-).
    
    The monitor can't feel and it can't see and I'm not sure everyone
    remembers this
    
    -me-
    

    
    
    How true Pauline...
    
    I am a RO of several conferences.... I have just started to open up in
    on conference in particular.  My ideas are taken into consideration and
    not judged, nor do I feel berated in anyway in that conference.  I am
    accepted for what I am.  As all ways I offer my opinion for what it's
    worth.  I don't think that I am an expert, but I do think that my
    opinion may help.  I also feel, if you don't want to read what I have
    to say, hit NEXT/UNSEEN.  that's what I do if I don't like the way
    something is going that I'm reading.
    
    There is alot of good in these conferences, but there is also alot of
    garbage.  You have to take what you want and leave the rest.
    
    I have noticed that several conferences I read several people dominate
    the conference.  You are right dumb or innocent questions are jumped on
    and I don't necessarily like it, and if I have a dumb or innocent
    question, I don't ask, because I don't want to subject myself to any
    abuse.  That's a big part of the reason that I choose to stay RO for
    the most part.
    
    I apologize for the attitude in my first note.  But I felt people were
    getting beat up for their opinion.  Karen you are right, D! was also a
    victim here, not just Donna.  
    
    I think alot that was said was just was interpreted wrong.  Something you 
    don't have in notes, are facial expressions or tones of voice, so
    sometimes notes don't translate well into writing and are taken wrong. 
    
    I think that we ALL should think about how we are coming across before 
    we write...
    
    LO    

    Me?  A victim?
    
    Hmmm....
    
    'tis interesting, I guess.  after years and years (since I was 13) of
    this sort of interaction (over the net) I guess i just have a different
    perspective on it all.
    
    i see a display of personalities and opinions, and often get a little
    confused by the emotionality with which some people respond to things. 
    i forget that i've become a bit, well, jaded after all the years.
    
    this is way, way off topic, but I am always fascinated by different
    people's way of interacting and interpretting.
    
    D!

    Re. -1
    
    You've been on the net since you were 13! Wow! See how easy it is to
    read the wrong thing from a reply?
    
    So, how about that Dave Maynard soup? Good, huh?
    
    Isn't that how this all started? Enough, already!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Amy

    re: on the net since 13 - well, it wasn't "the net" per se...first it
    was Compuserve...then it was local BBS's...then it was internet at
    college and summer jobs...then it was the net here at DEC...
    
    So it's been many years.  I think 13 is an exageration.  I was actually
    14 when I got my Compuserve account.
    
    re: misunderstandings - of course.  That's why when I encounter
    unexpecedately hostile responses like in this notestring, instead of
    responding with similar hostility, I try to slow down and say - how
    could I have misinterpretted hir note, and how could s/he have
    misinterpretted my note?  And also to be aware of emotional buttons
    people can have, and something that is perfectly innocent to me might
    carry some baggage for the people I am talking to.  Also, I try to
    avoid letting my emotions get tied up in NOTES because it is so easy to
    misinterpret, and so easy to be too sensitive...NOTES is not a good
    place for extremely sensitive people to be.
    
    Which is not to say I'm perfect, and never act in angry ways, or never
    let another noter hurt me.  But, after all this time, I'm pretty good
    at staying detached.
    
    ----
    
    So - why doesn't someone post the Dave Maynard Soup if it's good?
    
    D!

    
    
    I think the Dave Maynard soup is in one of the earlier replies, before
    all the junk...
    
    And I have to say it's not bad... I make a simliar soup, I call it
    "JUNK SOUP" 'cause it's made with whatever vegetables I have on hand or
    that need to be used up!  Usually some sort of cabbage, onions,
    peppers, zucchini, summer squash, peppers and spinach mixed with
    whatever spices I grab (oregano, basil, red pepper and of course
    GARLIC).
    
    LO

    Re. the soup. I think it's in reply .8 or .9 in this note.
    
    I do the same thing as -1. It almost always has a tomato and cabbage 
    base and then I throw in whatever else is around, in terms of non-starchy
    veggies. I boil an onion into it but remove it when it's soft. My
    system doesn't do well with onion. If you want to increase the carbo
    content, cook in some potatoes. Sweet potatoes are yummy in it.
    (obviously, if you're following the Dave Maynard Diet you would leave
    out the starch).
    
    Sometimes I puree half and of it and pour it back in to make a thicker
    soup. I always keep some on hand. This is very useful when you come
    home from work starving. If you heat up a bowl of this and eat it
    before anything else, your chances of making poor food choices are
    minimized because you're fuller. Sometimes it's my whole meal if I have
    some fresh bread with it, or cook up some noodles and throw them in.
    
    Great filler!
    
    Cheers,
    Amy

    It seems like we have this discussion every year.
    
    Someone comes in and makes a claim about proteins or quack diets or fat
    burner pills, then someone presents factual, scientific information from
    a reputable medical journal or textbook or periodical and the response
    is : "oh, that's a lie from the meat lobby."
    
    Then, when asked to back up their claims with something tangible, it's
    always too much work.  "My books are in storage" or "I read that some-
    where, but I forget where" or they simply clam up and leave.
    
    I've entered numerous notes in this conference regarding amino acids
    and proteins.  Beans are most definitely an incomplete protein.  Anyone
    who claims otherwise is wrong.  Anyone who claims human beings can sur-
    vive eating incomplete proteins is wrong.  You MUST supplement your non-
    -animal sources of proteins with their complements.
    
    These are not the words of the "meat lobby," this is science.
    
    Before anyone starts a fad diet, I recommend they read 296.5.  It's 5
    years old, but sadly, nothing has changed.  I also recommend reading
    502.19.

   
    
    Mike I agree with you. 
    
    I have also listed a couple of books in 12.23 (a more appropriate note), 
    and as soon as I get to a bookstore, with get the names and the authors of 
    two more books (which were good sources of information).  So I'm not just 
    stating something without sources of information and running away.
    
    I agree BEANS AREN'T a complete protein, I never said that they were.
    They are a good soucre of protein, but aren't complete.  I'm sure that if 
    you ate kidney beans three meals a day, for weeks on end you would be very 
    deficient in some amino acids.  I'm not saying that you do this.  Just as 
    I wouldn't say eat just chicken and only chicken for every meal, which is 
    not healthy either. 
    
    Yes, your body needs complete protein (amino acid chains).  I'm not 
    arguing that.
    
    In fact the book _The Vegetarian Handbook - by: Gary Null_ has a very
    large appendix on complimentary protein combining.
    
    I do believe that if you eat a WIDE VARIETY of foods beans, grains,
    fruits, vegetable, and dairy, you are going to find it very hard not
    to complete the amino acid chains.  "Wide variety", not the same foods day
    after day.  I also believe that if for A meal or snack, you don't
    complete the amino acid chain, it is not going to adversely effect you, 
    IF ON THE WHOLE YOU ARE EATING A BALANCED VARIED DIET.  I don't suggest
    doing this as a way of eating all the time.  I also find that food 
    combining comes naturally, I never just eat one food at a meal, nor have 
    I ever, even when I was eating meat.
    
    I agree quack or fad diets (as I feel .0 is), are not lifestyle changes 
    and not something that you can live with for a lifetime and only
    provide temporary success.  There are no quick fixes.  I believe the only 
    way for permanent weight loss is a low-fat, high fiber, and varied diet
    (with or withoug meat) in combination with exercise.  Plain and simple.
    
    As I said in my reading list note (12.23).  I don't believe everything
    that I read, nor do I believe everything that is sold in advertising,
    (ie. the meat industry or vegetarian industry).  Each of these has the 
    information slated in their favor.  I found this very true with the book 
    _Diet for a New America - by: John Robbins.  This was very much a Meat 
    Industry bashing book.  I got beyond that, I realized that alot of the 
    data that was presented was skewed to make his way was look better, safer, 
    healthier or whatever but, aside from that there was some valuable 
    information in the book. Take what you need and leave the rest.  
    
    I am very careful in my diet.  I'm not a vegetarian because of
    political issues or meat industry issues.  I am a vegetarian, because I
    never really liked or enjoyed meat period.  I also enjoy food and for the 
    same number of calories and less fat and can eat twice as much vegetable
    protein as meat protein (big + for me).  I make sure that I eat a wide 
    variety of foods, and I am getting enough COMPLETE protein.  I eat a 
    low-fat, high fiber diet and exercise, I feel great, but I'm trying not 
    obsessive (I've found that leads you into trouble too).  I'm also very 
    against the quick fix philosophy of the diet industry (more advertising), 
    and the diet mentality as suggested in .0.  I've learned that hard way, 
    these quick fixes don't work over the long run and you end up doing more 
    damage than good.  You are better off 10 lbs. overweight, than abusing 
    your body with years of the yo-yo diet syndrome.
    
    To your health...
    
    Laurie O
     
    
    

    Since a new note (853) has referred to this diet (and note) I thought I
    would put in my experience with this diet. 
    
    A few weeks ago I tried it. I was on it for 6 of the 7 days (as I was
    traveling the last day and couldn't pack the rice/soup).  I lost a
    total of 3 pounds. A few weeks laters - it's still off. I liked the
    diet because I never lost energy, as I have with past diets. The soup
    is good. I wouldn't made this a permanent way of eating - but for a
    quick 1 week shot - I'd do it again. Infact I probably will when I have
    a week of no travel.
    
    A few other comments:
    
    I did NOT have a reaction to the "fruit" day (day 1). Other than the
    first day (when my husband had a pizza for dinner....) I did not have
    much of a problem with cravings. Though, the potato sure tasted good.
    At night I would have a bowl of soup when I first got home, so whatever
    my husband ate wouldn't be as much of a temptation.
    
    Anyway - I was very pleased with the diet. Would have liked to loose
    more, but hey, I'll take 3 pounds.  I think one disadvantage I had was
    that I am mostly a vegetarian so the difference in what I usually eat
    and what was on the diet wasn't all that different, except for the
    daily combinations. All the diet really did for me was cut out dairy
    and bread. As I said earlier - I didn't have any problem with the fruit
    day - but I did have problems with the first meat day. I tried doing
    the beef, ended up only eating about 5 oz.  and was still affected (I
    guess this was my "fruit" day!). The next day - I substituted tuna for
    beef. That seem to work, though maybe my substitutions affected the
    weight loss.
    
    Anyway - the diet seemed ok. Anyone who is a big meat/potato/bread
    person might have major cravings/withdrawal but might also lose more
    weight. 
    
    my 2 cents...
    
    janetb.
    Anyway - I
    

    
    fwiw, I thought I'd come back and update my opinion on this diet.
    
    Over the last month and a half I've "found religion" and tried what
    we've probably all heard hundreds of times:
    
    	-  exercise
    	-  eat right
    	-  watch your fat intake
    
    and, lo and behold, the fat comes off.  Now being the obsessive sort, I
    took this a little farther and read books on bodybuilding and read the
    nutritional advice of bodybuilders and nutritionists, and have been
    using the following:
    
    	-  .9 g protein per lb of bodyweight per day (approx 150g for me)
    	-  2.5 times as many calories from carbos as from protein
    	-  keeping fat to the bare minimum of 20-30g per day
    	-  lifting weights 4 times a week
    	-  aerobics at 75% maximum heart rate == .75 * (220 - age) for
    	   4 times per week for 20-30 minutes
        -  drinking *plenty* of water (more than 1/2 gallon each day)
        -  counting calories, and maintaining a caloric deficit of 300
    	   calories per day
    	-  eating 5 times per day, and making sure to keep the supply of
    	   complex carbos' sufficient to maintain proper insulin levels
    	   throughout the day
    
    So, in retrospect, I'd say "forget the Dave diet".  My current belief
    is that the weight loss, though genuine, is mostly from muscle.  This
    reduces your metabolic rate and makes it more likely that food will be
    converted into fat in the future.  While you may be successful in
    losing the fat, it will be a long hard road to replace the muscle.
    
    No shortcuts.  Eat well & pump it off!
    
       /jim

    I'm ocnfused.  Are you saying that your total daily calorie intake is
    just 300 calories?
    
    
    dlh

    
    re: 300 calories?
    
    No!  300 less than my maintenance level, which is somewhere in the
    neighborhood of 2300/day.  As I build more muscle and raise my
    metabolism I'm hoping to move this up higher and eat more.
    
    My goal isn't to lose weight, but to lose the fat and build muscle
    mass.  Doing both at the same time is a challenge, but so far it has
    been successful.  
    
    Building muscle while losing fat seems to involve eating a lot of
    protein, eating enough carbs to properly metabolize the protein and
    maintain proper insulin levels, pumping iron to stress the muscles, 
    doing aerobics at 75% for 20-30 minutes to burn off the fat, and doing
    visualization exercises to maintain enough motivation to keep going.
    
    Nothing very surprizing or revolutionary here... just a lot of hard
    work and good eating.  The biggest change and hardest thing is actually
    eating *enough* food.  I'm one of those eat-to-live people, and a
    regimen like this demands that you become a live-to-eat person.  Now
    I'm planning my meals at least a day ahead, laying out calories on a
    spreadsheet, cooking more nutritious (and more frequent!) meals, and
    enjoying my food much more.  I haven't been to the "caf" in over a
    month and a half, and I certainly don't miss it.
    
    One interesting thing that I threw in was what's called a double-split
    routine in my exercises, that is, I do weight training 4 days a week,
    roughly split into Mon/Thu "leg/back" day and Tue/Fri "chest/arm" day,
    and then on each workout day I split the routine and go once in the
    morning and then a second time (for the aerobic workout) at night. 
    This double-split routine has the advantage of raising the metabolism
    for twice during each workout day.  Since your metabolism remains
    elevated for about an hour after working out, this means that there are
    more hours in the day with a raised metabolism, which means more fat
    burned off.
    
    ...And for the benefits of drinking lots and lots of water, see note
    196 in the FLEX conference.  Just try it, you'll see the results
    quickly.  In my case my skin immediately felt better, and I found it
    easier to regulate my weight (or I believe this to be true, anyway). 
    In any case, it is a very inexpensive experiment.  If you're eating a
    lot of protein, you *need* to drink water to keep out of ketosis, but
    this also enables your liver to be much more efficient at metabolizing
    fat.  I'm merely parroting back what I've heard about this; of course.
    
    Anyway I feel like I have a lot more energy, even if most of that
    energy seems to be spent preparing 5 meals each day!
    
    /jim   

    sounds reasonable, but I wanted to make 1 comment.  150 Grams of
    protein is a lot!  I am no expert on body building, maybe you really do
    need that much protein, but most people only need in the order of 50-60
    grams of protein a day.  Metabolizing protein uses up calcium, so if
    you are eating such large amounts of protein you should make *sure* you
    get enough calcium - especially if you are a woman.  (You, generic, not
    you, Jim.)
    
    D!

    
    >>  Metabolizing protein uses up calcium
    
    I wasn't aware of that, though in my case it isn't a problem.  The
    staple of my diet is non-fat milk, which is the main ingredient for
    protein drinks, pseudo-eggnog, and even some salad dressings. 
    
    >>  150 Grams of protein is a lot!
    
    yes, it is.  There is a raging controversy over how much protein people
    really need.  My slant on this argument is that:
    
    	a)  it depends on your goals,
    	b)  if you don't care about building muscle, then 50-60 grams
    	    per day is fine, and you can replace those calories with
    	    complex carbos.
    	c)  if you care about building muscles, then you need approximately
    	    .9 grams per lb of (lean) bodyweight.  All the successful 
    	    bodybuilders that I know of say that this much protein is
    	    necessary.
    	d)  You can't metabolize more than about 20-30g of protein per
    	    meal.  A small-built person eating 3 meals a day should 
    	    therefore follow the guideline of 60g/day; however, if you eat
    	    more frequently (e.g. 5 times a day, every 3 hours), then you
    	    can digest 100-150g/day.  If you include protein suppliments
    	    (assuming your goal is to build muscle now), you can digest an
    	    additional 5g/meal, or an additional 25g protein per day.  You
    	    may also need to take digestive aids in this case.
    
    	    In my case, I'm not big enough yet to worry about needing more
    	    than 30g protein per meal, since 150g is about .9 * 170 anyway,
    	    but if you weighed 220lb and wanted to get really BIG, then
    	    you might worry about how to increase protein intake as
    	    mentioned in (d).  Obviously that's not *my* problem  :) :)
    
    but D!, you're right.  Getting 20-30g protein at every meal for 5 meals
    a day, plus keeping fat down very close to 20g, plus maintaining an
    adequate supply of complex carbos, PLUS staying 300 calories in deficit
    is HARD.  I discovered that I can't do it without a spreadsheet.  Call
    me a geek if you like, but I'm 3 belt holes down & building or at least
    maintaining muscle at the same time.
    
    keep on pumpin'!
    
       /jim

	Jim,
	
	The true amount of protein needed is between .8 and 1.0 grams
	per KILOGRAM of body weight, not per pound.  I have heard body
	builders telling folks that it's per pound, and that's just
	flat out wrong.

	So, assuming from your note that you weigh around 167, 

	167*.45 = 75.15 Kg
	75.15*.9 = 67.6 grams of protein

	References include the U Cal Berkeley Wellness Encyclopedia

	Karen

    
    Hi Karen,
    
       I'm familiar with that recommendation, but as I said, there is
    a long controversy around this issue.  There are other studies
    that say 1g/lb.  Pick your study and act accordingly; what is 
    clear is that the people who make it their avid interest to gain
    muscle mass just about unanimously agree that you need much more
    than .5g/lb of lean bodyweight in order to _gain_ mass.
    
       There's probably a long discussion about this in the FLEX
    conference.
    
       /jim