Conference repair::reserve_forces

    
    Do you want *serious* or *fun* traditions?
    
    I do believe that reserve units have more traditions that are carried
    on and are considered sacrosanct than regular force units. I also
    believe that units of British descent have more than American units
    and that Highland units have more than anyone else.
    
    My regiment is Highland and one of the odd things about Highland
    regiments is that they probably have more orders of dress than anyone
    in the world. It seems that every CO decides on a new order of dress
    upon assuming command. Because of the various accoutrements we wear
    it is quite possible to have several officers in the the same order
    of dress yet be differently dressed.
    
    Approximately 15 years ago, there was a District (Brigade) Commanders
    conference which approximately 20 of our officers attended. It was
    commented on at the time that no two were dressed alike. Since that
    time we have made it a point of not appearing identically dressed
    if at all possible.
    
    Roger

    
    The Lanark and Renfrew Scottish regiment do not address their CO
    as 'Sir' but rather by 'Col First Name' ie Col Jamie, Col Roger,
    etc and have since they were founded.

    Roger

    Traditions - this I need some help on.
    
    Recently we had our Regimental Christmas Dinner Dance, and what
    a joke it was.  I thought that these sort of things was a pompus
    affair, but boy was I wrong.
    
    I thought that it would be the kind of affair where guys wore the
    traditional dress and ladies wore ball gown/cocktail type outfits.
    
    Well, for one, they all wore civvie type clothing and it was all
    very much like a civvie company "do".  I always thought that when
    the port was passed around that it was passed to the left and that
    the ladies never touched the port or never let the port touch the
    table.  Well all of these things happened.
    
    I think its time that the Army should bring in table manners as
    one of the training sessions.
    
    Whats your views.
    
    Dustie
    

    
    Dinner traditions can vary from unit to unit and the type of dinner.
    
    For example at our formal dinners, dress is mess kit and long gowns
    and the ladies pour their own port but the 'Quaich' is not drunk
    unless only officers are in attendance.
    
    In mixed ranks dinners, such as Christmas, dress is that of the
    day if only unit members are in attendance. If guests are invited,
    then dress is usually mufti because a lot of enlisted personnel
    don't have or can't afford formal wear.
    
    In our mess the Senior Subaltern is tasked with instructing new
    junior officers as to protocol, dress, etc for upcoming functions.
    I know that in our Jr Ranks mess they have rehearsals for major
    functions so that things go correctly. 
    
    Our Sr NCOs mess also has indoctrination sessios with new members.
    
    Maybe you will have to take the responsibility unto yourself.
    
    Roger 
   

    Re all:
    
    We had a Navy Ball a couple of years ago to honor the US Navy's
    birthday (Oct. 13, 1775 if anyone's interested) and it was a mixed
    ranks affair.
    
    Uniform was service dress blues for the reason stated previously
    (lower ranking personnel might have trouble affording formal attire).
    We had a DJ and all hands joined in the festivities. One of my Second
    Class RM's decided it would be neat if he could get a dance with
    the skipper of the reserve center (a female O-4) and no feathers
    were ruffled.
    
    Personally, considering some of the sailors I've gone on liberty with,
    I'm happy if they just remember to drink with one hand! :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Re all:
    
    Going back to the Christmas Dinner I attended, 
    
    One of the guys was going to wear a DJ because I was wearing a long
    ballgown, the CSM overheard, and instructed the tom not to under
    any circumstances to wear his dj because he would up stage the Major,
    well if that was the case, I up staged the Majors wife, and not
    doubt I will be pulled over the coals about it in the New Year.
    
    Still I don't care, when I go out to dinner and its formal, I like
    to dress the part.
    
    Its a shame that nobody else did that night, as I was the only one
    in full length, and nobody else seemed to make the effort.
    
    Dustie

    Re .6:
    
    Dustie, for the benefit of us Yanks......what's a DJ?
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

RE .7: DJ = TUXEDO (we had them first but some yankee idiot in Tuxedo, NY, wore
one at  a party and the name of the town stuck to the attire).

Re .6: you'll be sorry :-)

/. Ian .\

    
    Mark,
    
    A DJ is a Dinner Jacket usually worn with dickie bow and cumber
    band......and very smart it looks too, they should be worn more
    often.
    
    Dustie

    
    
    Ian,
    
    In reply - if I was told that it was an informal Dinner then, I
    would have dressed accordingly, but I wasn't, I was told it was
    formal.
    
    If the CSM has a problem about that then its tough, for the last
    6 months I have been dressed in bover boots and trousers and I wanted
    to show them that I could be a women, and boy did I.......
    
    I will let you know how many broken and bruises I receive when it
    happens.
    
    TTFN
    
    Dustie - or as I'm know being called Dirty Dustie!!!!!!!
    

    Re .9:
    
    Thanks, Dustie!
    
    I probably should return the translation favor some time since I
    use such terms as "raghat" and others occasionally. A "raghat",
    BTW, is a sailor below the rank of Chief Petty Officer and derives from
    the white hat worn by US Navy sailors of those ranks (aka Dixie
    Cup).
    
    I wore a DJ/tuxedo for a couple of years in Masonic Lodge....that
    was almost 15 years ago and I'd have to shed a few pounds to wear
    it now! :) :) :)
    
    They do like sharp though.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    
    Mark,
    
    
    Can you possibly answer this question for me.
    
    What the heck is "BTW".  Everyone ueses it, and I don't understand
    it along with the moderator....(sorry Dave)
    
    Cheers Big Ears.....
    
    
    Dustie
    

    Why are Officers piped on/off a ship? 

    

to warn the real world they're about ?

/. Ian .\

    
    Cute remark, had me stitches, keep em comin!!!!
    
    Dustie

    Re 'the Military Ball'
    
    I've enjoyed most of the ones that I've attended. These were mixed
    ranks and w/spouses or guests. My feeling is that assigned personnel
    only and dress uniform would tend to be stuffy, rooster strutting
    affairs. The problems arise when the desire to show pride in your
    unit, is over-ridden by some Sr Commander's desire play lord-of-the-
    fife. Then these become political functions and woe be to the career
    of any officer that doesn't appear.
    
    I don't know how this correlates to the British army, but the US
    has BDU, Class A/B, Dress Blue, Mess Blues/Whites. The normal class
    A uniform is an army green suit-cost type jacket with same color
    trousers. It is normally worn with a grey-green shirt and black four-
    in-hand tie. Dress blues are normally worn with a white shirt an black
    tie. Dress blues are formal attire by nature, but person that sets
    the uniform for a function can specify wear of a black bow-tie to
    upgrade. Concession is made in the uniform wear regulation to the
    problem of lower ranks not being able to buy this optional dress.
    Only recruiters are issued dress blues in the army. The Uniform
    wear reg specifically states that the class A Green jacket can be
    used on formal occaisions, if worn with a white shirt. The type of
    tie is determined by the specification for the formal attire. I
    think this also applies to the US Air Force, since they have similar
    uniform levels. The US Navy and Marine Corps have many more uniform
    variations, so I'll let someone more familiar list them.

    Re .12:
    
    BTW = By The Way (Noter's shorthand)
    
    Re .13:
    
    Officers of certain ranks and positions are piped aboard or over
    the side as a matter of courtesy and tradition.
    
    For example, when the skipper of the USS NEVERSAIL crosses the
    quarterdeck (the part of the ship you can access from the pier)
    an announcement is made over the 1MC (ship's PA system) to the effect:
    "NEVERSAIL arriving". This tells all hands that the skipper is aboard.
    The same procedure is followed for departures.
    
    Shore stations (like Navy Reserve Centers) are considered to be
    "ships" (much like the Royal Navy Base at Greenock, Scotland is an HMS
    - the name of which escapes me unfortunately). If the rear admiral who
    is commander of a readiness command enters the reserve center, the
    quarterdeck watch (in reality the sailor who checks all visitors
    coming and going from the building) announces his arrival as, "REDCOM
    ONE (or whatever) arriving", just as if the reserve center was "haze
    gray and underway" (that is, at sea). Haze gray comes from the color
    US Navy ships are painted.
    
    All US Navy personnel, regardless of rank, can be piped over the
    side at retirement if they so desire. That's the only time a Chief
    or a First Class rates sideboys BTW! :) :) :)
    
    The US Navy is probably more tradition-oriented IMHO (in my humble
    opinion) than the other services. If it was good enough for John
    Paul Jones, it's probably still useable today! :) :) :)
    
    I can dig up some more if you like.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR
    

    I maybe should mention what a "Gooneybird" is....
    
    That's US slang for a C-47/DC-3 aircraft. It's known in British
    circles as a "Dakota".
    
    Mark

Re: 50.16

>    Only recruiters are issued dress blues in the army. The Uniform

	Not really true. There are many units issued the Army Blue
	Uniform, 3d US INF (The Old Gaurd), US Army Band (Pershing's
	Own), Military Police Activity Ft Monroe, Military Police
	Activity MDW Fort Myer/McNair, just to name a few.

>    wear reg specifically states that the class A Green jacket can be
>    used on formal occaisions, if worn with a white shirt. 
	
	According to the reg this is enlisted only.

Don

    I guess I'll have to defer to the Sr Drill on this one. I
    had forgotten about ceremonial units such as the 3d Inf. I
    will take exception to the bands, they have their own section
    in the uniform regulation. The MPs are interesting info. I
    can truly state that I've never seen an on-duty MP in anything
    higher than class A greens. The normal arm bands would look
    quite ugly on the dress blues, IMO. Live & learn.
    
    Bob Mc

< Note 50.4 by KAOO01::LAPLANTE >
    
>    Our Sr NCOs mess also has indoctrination sessios with new members.
   
     Let me carry this a little further. In the Canadian Militia, there 
     is a course to train Senior NCO, that is Sergeants. This course is
     currently the SLC - Senior Leaders Course. Prior to 1986, the course
     was called the Senior NCO course and was required to be promoted to
     Sergeant. This course had within the curriculum, mess etiquette. We
     learned how to act and behave in the Senior NCO mess and the proper
     way to conduct mess dinners etc. There was even a test on the night
     before graduation, we conducted a mess dinner, that was attended by
     all candidates and the instructors. The next morning while we signing
     course reports, the instructors critique each individual on the dinner.
     In addition to that, the top candidates were given command positions
     within the dinner and this help the instructors to determine who was
     the best, since it was virtually a tie.

     Since I have been a long time member of my mess and have been the Vice
     President and the President, I know how important it is to be on your
     best behavior. Many people judge the unit by the actions of people
     in the mess. Currently, we have a position of junior Sergeant, whose
     responsibilities include ensuring proper mess behavior and decorum and
     training any newly promoted Sergeant about their duties and etiquette.

    Re proper mess etiquette:
    
    In the US Navy, any sailor who receives a direct commission is
    immediately sent to what is known as "Knife and Fork School" (a
    course designed to familiarize these personnel with officer life)
    to reinforce the "Gentleman" part of the "Officer and a Gentleman".
    
    This name presumably derives from the manner in which some enlisted
    personnel consume their food! :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    re .19
    In .20, I omitted  my thought about the class A w/white shirt
    being restricted to enlisted. I'll have to look at the regulation,
    I never noticed that. That doesn't mean it isn't there, only that
    I overlooked it. In practice, officers wearing class A w/white shirt
    in lieu of dress blues have only been subjected to some ribbing
    about "you really should buy some blues if you plan to stay in" type
    reproachment. At my Bn/MSC (Major Subordinate Command) Ball, I was
    the only E8 without blues. An E7 First Sergeant and myself were the
    only two in command positions without blues. But I'll be damned if
    I'm going to spend $250-300 for a uniform that I will only wear
    once a year, if that often. I have kept my eyes open for a guy of
    approxiametly the same size, that was retiring and wanted to sell
    his. Haven't found one yet. Anybody about a 42 regular want to make
    a deal?
    
    Bob Mc

    RE:  .22
    
    Mark,
    
         It's not just the 'direct commission' (Mustang) folks.  I recall a
    cours in Pre-Flight - right up there with Leadership and Aerodynamics -
    it was called "Etiquette".  Talked about everything from calling cards
    to the proper way to eat soup (no slurpin' - don't tilt the bowl).
    
         According to my wife, I failed!
    
    		Bill T.
    
    PS - yes, I did get the advancement info - thanks

    1960's era USN "Formals"
    
    Much of the uniform 'paraphanalia' that a Naval Officer accumulated was
    necessary, i.e. worn/used/required frequently.  There were (don't know
    about now) three pieces that were ceremonial, and I believe considered
    optional.  They were:
    
    	. Aviation Greens.  This was the only uniform that was specifically
          for those with Aviation Designators.  If I recall correctly, CPOs
          also were authorized to wear 'Greens'.  Mark?
    
        . A Sword.  This was part of the 'Full Dress' uniform.  I bought
          mine in 1965 for about $100.  It's quite ornate - the blade (not
          the proper term) is etched with a flowing pattern, and with my
          name.  I used mine about a half dozen times in five years.  By
          the way it hangs in my den and is the ONLY 'Uniform' article
          that I have left.
    
        . Mess Dress.  This is the Dinner Jacket/Tux mentioned earlier. 
          For most of the Officers that I knew (myself included) this was a
          pass-me-down uniform.  You found someone due to be released from
          active duty and you bought his.  From memory, the uniform
          included:
    
    		dark (navy blue) trousers - dark stripe on the side
    		ruffled, white shirt
    		dark bow-tie
    		depending on season
    			white jacket
    			dark jacket
    			dark cumberbund
    			gold cumberbund
    		miniature medals and badges (wings)
                white cover
          	black, highly polished (of course!) shoes
    
          Without exception, this was my favorite uniform.  It was 'SHARP'! 
          Also, it was very comfortable.  The short jacket, which was not
          buttoned was not confining.
    
    	  As an Instructor in the Training Command I attended four
    	  Regimental Formals a year and really enjoyed them.  I have not
    	  worn a tux in the twenty years that I have been out.....perhaps
    	  it's the uniform.
    
    For what it's worth.
    
    
    	Bill T. 

    Re .25:
    
    Bill:
    
    Roger that....CPO's can wear aviation greens. I never saw too many
    instances of them being worn but then the only greens I usually saw were the
    kind you wore with combat boots! :) :) :)
    
    Also on swords.....it is my understanding that the enlisted pukes
    are authorized cutlasses but I don't know if they're issued or bought.
    
    I've got a complete list of issue uniform items for E1-E6 somwhere if
    someone is interested.
    
    BTW, according to US Navy lore, the reason there are 13 buttons
    on the service dress blue jumpers is not for the 13 original colonies
    but rather so that a girl can have thirteen chances to change her
    mind! :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Aviation greens are not a "special occasion" uniform as is implied
    by mess dress or full dress (sword).  Aviation greens are the a
    working uniform much like service dress khaki was.  It is only
    authorized for airdales, but if you got the change and are attached
    to an "aviation" command, you can wear them even if your a ship
    driver like me.
    
    For example, while I never bothered to check it out, I was told
    that while on the GUADALCANAL I could have worn greens like the
    flyboys did. 
    
    But who wants to pay big bucks just to look like one of those guys
    :-)
    
    Dick

    RE:  .27
    
    Dick,
    
    You are absolutely right!  My note did imply that greens were something
    other that a working uniform.  However, I chose to leave it that way. 
    If I remember correctly, to an Airdale, work was a special occassion!
    
    You're also right about the price - I think they were the most
    expensive uniform.  Aviation Greens were generally the second thing
    guys bought.  All other uniforms were issued, and if you could live
    with the lower quality, they would do for a while.  By the way, the
    first thing was a car - if you've ever seen the strip leading from NAS
    Pensacola, it has to be the highest density car lot on earth.  Car lots
    and Finance Companies - they got real creative to meet the needs of the
    Cadets.
    
    Thanks for the clarification Dick.
    
    	Bill Tarmey  

    Re .28:
    
    Hi Bill:
    
    In my NAVSECGRU days back in the 70's, I did a couple of ACDUTRAs (aka
    AT or Annual Training) at Corry Field in Pensacola, FL. I was over at
    mainside a couple of times and it seems there were two kinds of cars in use
    over there: Corvettes and 240Z's!
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    The pecking order of the mid-60's:
    
    	1.  GTO
    	2.  Corvette
    	3.  Jag - XKE (used)......read 're-possessed'!
    	4.  Chevelle - SS396
    	5.  Olds (400+ cu in.....Cutlass 2+2[?])
    
    This was the era of Bigger = Better = Higher 'Score' @ Pensacola Beach!
    
    Again, they got very creative.  My choice was the SS396.  $50 down, $50
    per month until commisison, then the baloon went up!  Had to put my
    wife to work to make the car payments.
    
    	Bill Tarmey

    Hey chief, see what happens when you give those clowns flight pay.
    We were driving used Chevs in Newport....  :-)

    Re .30:
    
    I'm sure she was a real happy camper after she started working!
    :) :) :)
    
    Re .31:
    
    I hear ya! :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Somehow, immediately after I hit the 'Y' key, I knew that I had opened
    myself up.  Oh well, I guess I would have been dissapointed if .....
    
    RE:  Newport.....You drove a Chevy, but where was the Yacht tied up? 
         But, there is an image that must be maintained........  I seem to
         recall OCS Grads coming down for Flight Training.  I don't
         remember any being embarrassed by what they drove.  Regardless, no
         one took a back seat in choice of car to "Canoe U".
    
    RE:  She enjoyed working.  Actually, she did Nurses, you know).  The 
         thing that got her attention though, was keeping the car running 
         (maintaining it) while I was deployed.  That was the "straw that 
         broke the camel's back".  Four weeks after I returned (back in 
         P-cola by the way) the SS-396 was gone, to be replaced by a 
         four-door Impala (327).
    
         So much for the image!
    
    I often wonder how many of those "Cadet Cars" lasted through the
    payment period. 
    
    	Bill Tarmey
    
    PS - The "hottest" car in the Naval Air Training
    	 Command was an early 60's Vette owned by an ADRC.
    	 No one messed with it!
    	 

        
        
        The RN and RNR observe an old tradition.
        
        We sit to drink the loyal toast at mess dinners. This dates back to 
        the days of sail when there was insufficient headroom to stand in 
        ships. The King (George III or IV I think) was attending a dinner 
        on board one of his ships and noticed that, when the officers stood 
        to drink his health, anyone taller than the average midget had to 
        stoop to avoid braining himself. He gave permission there and then 
        to sit for the loyal toast and we still do it.
        
        The only time I can remember when we didn't do this was when we had 
        a visiting USN Admiral in our wardroom. Our Captain stood to 
        propose the health of the President, and the Admiral then stood to 
        propose the loyal toast...we all immediately shot to our feet to 
        stop him feeling lonely!!
        
        Ed 

    
    Ed's mention of toasts made me think about them and dinners.
    
    Generally at mess dinners in Canada and the UK, there is no smoking,
    and no getting up from the table for any reason, until after the
    Loyal Toast to the Queen. It is proposed by the junior officer in
    attendance. It is the first toast proposed. 
    
    Ed you implied that the toast to the President preceded the Loyal
    Toast. Is that correct? Here toasts to heads of state of visiting
    officers follow immediately after the Loyal Toast.
    
    Toasts would be in the following sequence:
    
    	Loyal Toast
    	Other Heads of State
    	Fallen Comrades
    	The Regiment
    	Colonel in Chief/St Andrew/Ladies depending on the dinner
    	Others
    
    There are no ad hoc toasts.
    
    Roger

        Re 35
        
        I

        Re 35
        
        Sorry about 36...finger trouble.
        
        You are correct.. the actual sequence of events was;
        
        The Loyal Toast proposed by the visiting USN Flag Officer followed 
        by our CO proposing the President. The visiting Admiral stood to 
        propose the Queen and that is why we all shot to our feet. We would 
        have stood for the toast to the President anyway.
        
        Ed

    These discussions on toasting are very interesting. In my experience,
    protocol issues are not taught, nor are they exercised often, in the
    USArmy. Officers and Warrant Officers that receive direct appointments
    do attend a familiarization course, but I am not aware of any training
    in these social graces. Most of the information appears to be passed on
    informally. The one exception that I am aware of, is when the former 
    Brigade commander was selected for promotion to Brigadier. I found out
    from the S1 that the commander and his wife were required to attend a
    course dealing with the protocol and etiquette of becoming a General
    Officer. Of course, I've never been privy to information concerning
    someone making that grade before or since. At formal dinners, there is
    usually a toast to the President, the Army and major command sponsoring
    the event. Ad Hoc toasts are, sometimes, proposed. I have seen these
    as formal as the Exec proposing the first, the S1 the second and the
    S3 the third with a toast to fallen comrades by the CSM, to the same
    senior NCO doing them all because no one else wanted to do it.
    
    Bob Mc

    As for other traditions, let's talk about saluting. I understand
    the need for 'outdoor' type recognitions, but indoor types seem
    to have a large disparity. There is a TV show whose main character
    is a USMarine Corps Major. On this show, every time he or any other
    field grade officer enters the building, the command 'Attention on
    deck' is given. In the Army, this is usually reserved for full 
    Colonels and up. Even then, in a headquarters that has lots of senior
    officers, this is often dispensed with entirely. If you were working
    in a Division HQ, you'd be snapping to attention or coming to 'at
    ease' every five minutes. Is their some rule that says that if your
    commander is of a higher grade, then you would ignore this protocol
    for someone of a lesser grade?
    
    Bob Mc

    Saluting - the US Navy of the late 60's - from memory
    
    	Naval personnel remove their covers when under roof.
    	Naval personnel uncovered do (did) not salute.
    	When dealing with a more Senior Officer in your own Command
    	(Squadron) you only saluted once per day - usually in the morning.
    
    	If this were not the case, an Ensign (oh, that term again!) in the
    	normal carrying out of their primary duties (gopher...Go For) would
    	get tendonitis of the elbow real quick!
    
        Though I don't recall if it was by choice or reg, our Enlisted
    	Personnel followed the same practices.  By the way, we were rather
    	loosy-goosey, and no one ever remembered (or cared?) if the first
    	of the day salute had been given.  The only assurance was the the
    	Skipper and Exec got theirs.
    
    	Other polite acknowledgements replaced saluting; Good Morning Sir,
    	Have a good day Sir, etc.
    
    	People very quickly learned who required more formality.
    
    	I was 'Bill' to other Officers (both up and down), and Mr. T. (and
    	this was before the 'A' Team, so I guess I was first!) to the
    	Enlisted.  Only when discipline became a problem - and that didn't
    	happen until I was doing Instructor Duty - did I demand 'Mr.
    	Tarmey'.
    
    	Other Services seem to carry saluting to a greater extreme, but
    	that's how I remeber Naval Air.
    
    		Bill Tarmey 
                           

    Re .39 and .40:
    
    We were pretty informal around my old reserve unit and *really*
    informal in my old SECGRU outfit. At my last unit, the rule was
    I was "Mark" whenever there were no "outsiders" around (i.e., REDCOM
    Staff or whoever) and "Chief" when they were present. The CO (an
    O-6 BTW) was "Skipper" and "Sir" on the same basis.
    
    The only time I ever saw an attention on deck in a working space
    (at the reserve center or on deployment) was when an Admiral entered
    our working spaces. Other than that, officers walked in and out
    of our spaces with nary a second glance from the raghats or the
    Chiefs.
    
    One funny incident (although it wasn't funny at the time) occurred
    to me on the USS KIDD in Norfolk back about seven years ago. I was
    aboard for my two weeks active duty and had had very little shipboard
    time up to this point. I knew enough of the basics (like saluting
    the colors and then the OOD etc.) but not much else (remember I've
    been drilling up to this point with a *very* laid back reserve SECGRU
    unit - not the best preparation for NOB Norfolk).
    
    Well, my first duty day ends and I decide I'm going "civilian" so
    I change into shorts and a sport shirt. There wasn't much going
    on so I make my way aft to the ship's library. Already I'm in trouble
    (although I didn't know it until later) because I'm in civilian clothes
    (a no-no) and without realizing it I'm making my way aft via OFFICER's
    COUNTRY (a definite no-no). As luck would have it, who do I run
    into but the XO! Needless to say, I was informed in no uncertain
    terms by the XO NOT to take that route or wear civilian clothing
    on board ship again!
    
    Some days I wonder how I made Chief! :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Mark,
    
    Not being a naval type, the only ship I've been on took me across
    the English Channel, there is yet more I don't understand.
    XO = Executive Officeer I presume. What are his duties and why was yours
    mentioned with reverance?
    
    Incidentally, outdoors we salute. Indoors we salute only if we enter
    or leave an Officers office.  I've lost count of the number of times
    I've saluted an Officer as he walked from one building or another,
    and he has returned it, then just as his hand reaches his head he
    realises he's not wearing his cap. It does not promote respect from
    me. If he can't be bothered to do the job properly I would rather
    he just apologised and walked on.
    
    There seem to be very few traditions in any female units, don't
    you think!!
    
    Dave.
    
    

    I haven't decided if this belongs here or in the war stories note.
    
    One day on Fort Devens I was standing outside of the Clothing Sales
    store talking with some officer. Two female enlisted soldiers walked
    right by the two of us and looked us in the eyes. Without thinking
    twice I called them over and locked their heels.
    
    I said don't you salute officers when you walk by??
    
    RESPONSE: No, we're in a medical unit!!!!! 
    
    I couldn't believe it. 
    
    D

    Re .42:
    
    Roger that....XO = Executive Officer. He has, as we say in the States,
    lots of horsepower.
    
    The US Navy (and maybe the RN/RNR also - help me out Ed) is very
    tradition-oriented. On board ship, and again I don't have the sea
    time that others in this conference or the NAVIES conference have,
    officers have their own area (for junior officers it's known as
    "Boys Town" which the raghats and Chiefs stay out of (except on
    official business), the Chiefs have their own area (known as
    "The Goat Locker"), and the raghats have their own berthing
    compartments which, at least on the KIDD while I was there, most
    officers and chiefs didn't visit. I mostly saw first class petty
    officers taking charge in there. All the same, officers and enlisted work
    pretty closely together while underway, although all three groups,
    chiefs, raghats, and officers, usually go on their own liberty parties.
    
    Despite this, I understand that relationships between officers and
    raghats are more casual in the USN/USNR than the RN/RNR.
    
    BTW, on saluting......I had to unlearn US Army procedure when I
    transferred to the Navy - no saluting indoors period and no saluting
    uncovered (which is why sailors don't salute an officer they're
    reporting to indoors because they have to remove their cover prior
    to reporting to him/her).
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR 

As an sidelines reader, Mark and Dustie sound like an "Abbot and Costello" 
routine - the who's on first scenario..

Mark first refers to a "DJ" as in Disc Jockey, and Dusty's reply refers to 
DJ as an evening attire.  Mark, now confused over how Dusty is using "the 
DJ" asks what it is.

Dusty replies and indicates with a subtle spelling/typo error what a DJ is, 
and that it is worn with a "cumber band" (cummerbund).  

I'm expecting in a later note to see someone wanting to know what type of 
music a "cumber" band typically plays... %-)

And then the answers will really get bizare..


Phil

    Re .45:
    
    Well, Phil, if she'd only communicate like an RM we'd be all set!
    :-)
    
    Something like.............
    
    MARK DE DUSTIE DJ SAME AS CUMBERBAND INT QSL K
    
    DUSTIE DE MARK R QSL INT QRU K
    
    MARK DE DUSTIE QRU AR
    
    would have been crystal clear to me! :-)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    
    OK chaps,
    
    How do you communicate like an RM and I will try, and is there any
    chance that someone can translate the last note, because it got
    me well and truely confused.
    
    Yours still just about in the TA.
    
    Dustie Beck
    

    Re .47:
    
    OK, Dustie....here's a translation:
    
    MARK DE DUSTIE DJ SAME AS CUMBERBAND INT QSL K
    
    (Translation: MARK THIS IS DUSTIE DJ SAME AS CUMBERBAND CAN YOU
    ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT? OVER)
    
    DUSTIE DE MARK R QSL INT QRU K
    
    (Translation: DUSTIE THIS IS MARK ROGER ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT DO YOU
    HAVE ANYTHING FOR ME? OVER)
    
    MARK DE DUSTIE QRU AR
    
    (Translation: MARK THIS IS DUSTIE I HAVE NOTHING FOR YOU OUT)
    
    The QRU's and K's and AR's are merely shorthand used by radio operators
    on radioteletype and morse circuits. They help save time. You've
    probably recognize the voice equivalents I put in already.
    
    Hope that clarifies it.....if you know of any Royal Sigs personnel
    they could give you all the Q-signals and prosigns I used along
    with others.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    I had heard a rumor about a reunion dinner for Troop D, 5th AC,
    so I inquired this weekend. They were drilling at the same time.
    I was informed that this event was a 'dining in'. When I asked for 
    an explanation, I was told that it was a formal attire event and 
    was being held at the officer's club for members and invited guests.
    You do not speak unless spoken to, must request permission to leave
    the table etc. I remarked that it sounded very much like the British
    Regimental dinners and they said that dining in was patterned after
    those and a lot of active duty units had them. I have heard of Bn/
    Regimental dinners being held, but this is the first time that I
    have heard of one by those rules in the US military.
    
    I was, also, told that you could do the same thing in the field and
    it was then 'dining out'.
    
    Bob Mc

    There are dining in and dining outs. I have attend a few of these
    events. It is a formal attire event and the "Rules of the Mess" must be
    followed exactly. Some rules that I can remember are No Smoking except
    in the cocktail area. 
    
    I suggest that you consult the NCO or Officers Handbook. Most ROTC and
    OCS courses contain at least one dining in, so talk to a recent 2LT.
    
    Don

"Dining In" refers to an officers-only event (no guests).

A "Dining Out" includes guests.  There are other differences, as well.

The traditions have published rules that are rather lengthy, but generally
include imbibing, toasting, a dinner, and a ceremony with an MC (master of
ceremonies) from whom one must request permission for various activities.

\Gary

    Gary,
    
    The "Dining In" as it is run here in the Mass Air Guard is for
    Officers, NCOs, and EMs, but no outside guests (spouses, SOs, etc.). 
    It is formal but only the officers are required to wear mess dress.
    Does your unit, or other units in general, exclude NCO and EM ranks? 
    I'm asking because I've not heard of the dining-in/out being for
    officers only before.  Perhaps the Mass. Air Guard is unique in their
    inclusion of all ranks.
    
    Jane

Well the US is a democracy, right?
But in my experience each mess has its own dinners...

/. Ian .\

Re:  .52  NIKON::DAISY  More on the Dining-In

Jane,

I'm actually referring to active duty usage, when there are enough of each
(O's and E's) to have separate messes.  In the Reserves, I would imagine
that a "mixed" affair might be more appropriate to keep the unit spirit
together --- a "unit" Dining-In, if you will.  On active duty, I actually
never heard of enlisted personnel having Dinings-In or Dinings-Out, although
I suppose the CPOs (senior NCOs) may have had them (?).

In the sense that a Dining-In is for military only (no spouses/guests), the 
connotation is the same, as opposed to a Dining-Out, with guests.


Not saying that you are, but let us not let this degenerate into a discussion
of the whole relevance of the enlisted/officer split, at least not in this
note.  I have some war stories about our ship (crew = 1000+) and its mixed
rank Wives' Club that we were active in... (this was just prior to women at 
sea --- our ship eventually did get female crew members, after I left).

\Gary

    Thanks, Gary.  As I've never served in the active duty forces
    I'm not too familiar with some of the social nuances.  You are correct
    in your assumption that it is a "unit" dining-in (actually a "units"
    dining-in as it involves four units in the state), and it might not be
    beneficial to the morale of either the officers or NCOs to have it
    otherwise.
    
    Jane

        In the RN/RNR we "dine out" officers when they retire or leave for 
        a new posting. We also "dine in" new COs or staff officers.
        
        These are wardroom functions and are usually quite formal until the 
        speeches, and then they get pretty rowdy.
        
        Ed
        RNR

        
>        These are wardroom functions and are usually quite formal until the 
>        speeches, and then they get pretty rowdy.
        
>        Ed
>        RNR
 
    
    	Ed, there must be one or two tales you could tell your ol'
    	mates surely ;-)
        We won't tell anyone else, we promise.
    
    Dave
    	

    Re .47
    
    OK Mark,
    
    Thanks for the translation of the message, but somehow I think I
    will stick to english rather than radio comms etc, RRU isn't one
    of my strong points.
    
    Maybe if I talk in CB language then we might be able to communicate
    a little better.
    
    Whoosh bang I'm gone.
    
    Dustie

    While I was attending my Transportation Officers Basic Course (TOBC - 
    pronouced TO-beck), we had to organize, run and (unfortunately) attend
    a dining-in.  The only rules I can remember to a dining in are that you
    cannot bring outside (of the unit) guests.  
    
    The rules of the mess were VERY strict and could be used against you
    later on in the course of the evening.
    
    The way I remember it going was:
    
    Cocktail Hour-DO NOT drink too much! (The grog bowl was to follow!)
    Also, use the restrooms several times before you went in.  (Once in,
    you were not allowed to leave unless dismissed by the president of the
    mess.)
    
    Toasts (once inside)- I don't remember the actual order, but one did
    involve a rather elaborate concoction known as the grog bowl.  The grog
    was made up of about 10-12 different liquors and other assorted stuff. 
    "Stuff" is used because ours contanied everything from katsup to pencil
    shavings.  BTW, the actual bowl was a sanitized and clean toilet bowl.
    
    Dinner- By this time, most people are a little woozy for not following
    the directions of the senior NCO's on the coktail hour part. (Myself
    included)  The first person to eat (taste) the meal was the
    vice-president of the mess, or Mr. Vice.  The person chosen to be Mr.
    Vice had to be a combination of an obnoxious comic bordering on
    profanity and a talk show host.  Mr. Vice states the meal as edible and
    then we all eat.  
    
    Points of order- (This is the fun part)  Shortly after the start of the
    meal, the president of the mess will announce to Mr. Vice (who is on
    the other end of the room) that he may begin the points of order.  A
    point of order is usually a flaw called by one member on another.  The
    punishment ranges from a fee (roughly $0.25-$1.00), singing songs like
    the theme to "Gilligan's Island" or "The Brady Bunch", doing rather
    incriminating acts, to drinking from the dreaded grog bowl.  (I often
    opted for the grog bowl.  Again, in conflict with advice contrary to
    what I was doing.)
    
    Entertainment- This was a series of acts in which we usually picked on
    and taunted our instructors and senior officers generally without
    recourse.
    
    Afterwards, most of us changed (our quarters were next door) and
    returned to the bar to consume some more alcohol.  There were three or
    four of us who had to report to the commander the next morning for
    attempting to "swim" across the parking lot.  (I stress *US*.  BTW,
    "swimming" was about the only form of locomotion that was left to us.)
    
    Don't get wrapped around the axle!
    
    Ted