Conference repair::reserve_forces

    Well, I talk about Drill Sergeants.
    
    Drill Sergeant is a duty position and can be held by anybody in the
    grade of E-5 to E-7 and in a very few instances by an E-8 (Chief
    Instructor in the Drill Sergeant School is an E-8).
    
    It is the MOST rewarding job I did in the service. I never played the
    part of the screaming ranting maniac. As a Drill Sergeant I must
    be the role model soldier for the IET (Initial Entry Training) soldier.
    In my opinion the maniac Drill Sergeant does not present the
    professional soldier role model. Now there are times that I fly off the
    handle and go on the holier than thou pedestal. It is only "FIRE FOR
    EFFECT".
    
    Being a Drill Sergeant is not for everybody. There are quite a few
    Drill Sergeants, especially in the reserves, that should NOT be in that
    position. Many are maniacs others just don't have a clue what they are
    doing or how to do it. It takes a special type of person to do the job
    correctly. I have worked with many, what we call "SKATERS" who leave at
    1800 and don't come in until 0630. My average day starts at 0330 and
    finished somewhere around 2330 if I'm lucky. Good Drill Sergeants are
    calm, professional caring soldiers that really worry about turning out
    the best possible soldier.
    
    "Insist and Assist" that's out motto.
    
    Now back to the question at hand. I think the most hated position that
    someone can hold is the battalion S-3. 
    
    Don
    
    

    Re .0 and .1:
    
    I agree with .1 - the movie image of the US Army Drill Sergeant or
    the Marine Corps Drill Instructor or the US Navy Company Commander
    (all same) is somewhat inaccurate. And the hours are *long* - .1's
    schedule is definitely typical....for the dedicated types anyway.
    
    This is not to say that US Army Drill Sergeants aren't strict or
    that Basic Training is easy but the idea as I recall is not so much
    to instill fear as it is to instill habits that become so ingrained
    in you you will never forget them - which hopefully will keep you
    alive. A dead soldier/marine/sailor is no good to anybody.
    
    Even though Basic was 20 years ago, I still remember how to field
    strip an M16 and could probably still do the manual of arms for
    that weapon without too much of a problem. I still slap the bottom
    of the magazine after I've put it in the weapon too - how's that
    for training retention!
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    I have to agree with Don that the US Army has evolved to the point
    where good DI's are more like good teachers, they set the example,
    prepare themselves for the day's training, and really work hard to
    insure that their charges are equipped to survive on the battlefield.
    
    HOWEVER, it didn't used to be that way, boys 'n girls.  As recently as
    '63/'64 US DI's were allowed to, and frequently did, strike recruits to
    empasize a lesson.  Physical punishment was common and was only outdone
    by mental harassment and general discomfort.  Don't get me wrong.  I
    don't believe that this was done just to be mean and sadistic.  There
    was genuine belief that this was the necessary technique to reach the
    same goal, survival on the battlefield.  
    
    Which method is most effective?  I think that it depends on the time
    allowed to accomplish the task and the responsiveness of those being
    taught.  Sometimes you just have to get folks' attention!
    
    Also, I hear that the British DI's aren't exactly a day at the beach!
    
    Most hated rank?  Second Louies are right up there just because they
    can get ya killed while they're trying to read the instructions!  
    
    Len
    
       

    Re .4:
    
    I forgot to mention......the mosted hated rank in the US Navy?
    
    Probably Ensign (aka 2LT) because like 2LT's they can be downright
    *dangerous*. Second class petty officers have more prestige than
    Ensigns!
    
    When a new Ensign reports aboard as division officer on a ship or
    at a shore station, the Chief or Senior First Class takes him/her
    under their wing and actually runs the division (while still doing
    their regular job BTW) until the Ensign is ready to take over. Every
    Ensign in the USN knows this, in fact is trained to literally accept
    direction from a Chief or First Class when they first report aboard.
    
    Now I don't mean the Chief or First Class tells the officer what
    to do. What I mean the officer is trained to pay attention to
    suggestions from the Chief or First like, "Mr. Smith, I'd like to
    suggest we try it this way...." or, "Why don't you let me take care
    of that, Mr. Smith." The Ensign, if he/she is smart, will usually
    say, "Sure, Chief....I've got a meeting in the wardroom anyway"
    or something to that effect.
    
    Nonetheless, everybody is always a little nervous when an Ensign
    has charge of something important until whatever he/she is in charge
    of actually comes off.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    
    	The rank I most dislike has got to be Sergeant. Quite simply
    because of the extraordinary effect this promotion has on people.
    It turns friendly Corporals, who can be addressed by there first
    name while having a quiet chat, into screaming insult-hurling 
    maniacs who get annoyed if you don't end every sentence with
    "Sergeant". Does that P**s me off !!
    	Ref .1 What the hell is a Battalion S-3 ??
    
    				Expectantly yours,
    						  Steve..
    

    Re .5:
    
    S-3 is operations and is a staff position (usually filled by a Major
    at Bn. level). S-1 is admin., S-2 is intelligence, S-4 is supply, and
    when there's a need, S-5 I think is civil affairs (hearts and minds stuff).
    
    The US Navy Seabees (from "CB" or Construction Battalion) who are
    the Navy's equivalent of Engineers have those positions as well.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Beyond a doubt, the most hated rank in the U.S. Army
    	has to be Second Lieutenant (2LT)!
    
    Bill
    

    Well lads, the general trend is beginning to appear.  High ranking
    NCO's and low-ranking officers.  
    What about the females of the species.  The only time I was reprimanded
    was for failing to salute a regular WREN officer; did she give me
    a roasting.  The other officers seemed to be fed up with all the
    saluting they had to do.  I guess she was new to the job.
    
    The equivalent to DI's, I think, is the Flight Sergeant.  The 3
    in my unit seem to adopt the policy of being fair, firm and friendly.
    If one of their juniors gets to friendly they have a delightfully
    subtle way of putting him down- they ask him for his name.
    
    Dave

    re 2LT
    
    What is the difference between a 2LT and a SPC/CPL(E4)?
    
    
    The E4 has been promoted 3 times! 
    
    8-)(-8

    Listen in lads,
    
    If we're really good a 2nd Lieutenant (with a few months experience
    of his commision) might join our cast. We'll get to hear his side of 
    the story. Now there's something to look forward to.   
    
    I'll keep you informed.
    
    Dave.
    
    PS: He is alright in the office.

    Re .10:
    
    Uh oh.....better set the 2nd Lieutenant watch just in case!
    
    :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

There's nothing wrong with a second lieutenant that age and experience can't 
cure....

:-) :-) :-)

/. Ian .\

    There's a big exception to the 2LT, junior officer, paranoia.  That is
    the junior officer who got to be that way after serving his time as an
    enlisted man.  Some of the best, most squared away 2LTs I've been
    around were former enlisted combat vets who want to make a career of
    the Army and want to do it as an officer.  Can't blame a person for
    wanting to better his/her lot in life.
    
    Of course, there are some of us around who prefer gold stripes to gold
    bars! 8-)
    
    Len
     

    re: -1
    
    Len,
    
    I think you're right about the prior enlisted 2LT being among the
    best.  However, an exception which may be unique to the National
    Guard (correct me if I'm wrong) might be an NCO who becomes a 2LT 
    and reports back to his/her old unit.  Sometimes the new "attitude" 
    of the new 2LT can be insufferable for the NCO's who have to work with this
    person.  That's when the NCO's become creative in devising plans
    for the "attitude adjustment" of the new 2LT!
    
    Jane

    To be fair to the 2LT he did a 6 year apprenticeship in the ranks.
    
    Dave.
    

For active duty, it's the 2nd Lt.  

I was a 2Lt once and I tried hard to live down the reputation.  2Lt's 
aren't born bad -- They usually get bad when the brass above starts 
pushing through them to get some project done.  That wouldn't 
necessarily be bad, but sometimes those projects are just plain STUPID!

At Grand Forks AFB, ND our Wing Commander assigned junior officers 
(usually 2Lts) to Courtesy Patrol duty.  Your job was to walk around the 
base, get saluted, look at uniforms, and report people who failed to 
achieve on the aforementioned items of interest.  (There was a war going 
on in SouthEast Asia, but that was secondary.)  A group of us (I might 
have been promoted to the sublime level of 1Lt by that time) got together 
at the club and planned a little resistance action.  Our plan was to go 
on Courtesy Patrol as instructed, but confine our patroling area to the 
Division HQ area.  The Division Commander was a BG and he was our Wing 
Commander's (Col) boss.  Our plan was to report only people from other 
Wings or on Division HQ Staff.  I don't know if our resistance action 
was the reason, but Courtesy Patrol was disbanded shortly thereafter.

Big Bird's Revenge 

But, now for most detested rank in reserve units.  I'd like to nominate 
the rank of Colonel for the dubious distinction of being the rank that 
seems to have done the best job of changing genuine reservists (scruffy 
hair, scruffy shoes, but capable of doing their jobs and willing to do 
their jobs even in dangerous situations) into reggies.  Reggies are the 
haircut commando and shoe-shine patriot types who almost care whether 
you win or lose a war, but lways have the grass cut and sometimes even 
painted green when the inspectors arrive.

I've seen some really decent reservists become reggies after they pinned
on birds.  It must be the euphoria of being one step away from a flag 
rank.  Just gotta step on a few toes and maybe that'll do it.  Wouldn't 
my old reggie buddies be shocked to see me with stars?  Maybe they went 
to the Flight Surgeon's office for lobotomies.



                                  Kurt

    
    Being a Squid...I gotta go along with RMC Starin..
    
    NEW Boot Ensigns are the most dangerous and least respected. Especially
    those that just "gradiated" (my slang for graduated) from Annapolis and
    report aboard ship for the first time.
    
    Like the Chief says a 1st Class or Chief takes the floundering young 
    Parkers (Ref: McHales Navy) and tries to turn them into fine young
    officers and 'not to much' gentlemen.
    
    I observered an Ensign that was newly assigned to the Engineering Dept,
    telling a Chief Boatswains Mate, how they would disengaged after an 
    underway refueling....Well..this young Enzyme, took control over the 
    refueling station to the displeasure of Boat's. He then proceeded to 
    issue the order to disengage before the back pressure had receeded, 
    thereby dumping hundreds of gallons of Black #2 Oil all over the starboard 
    quarter, which incidently had just been recently painted by the Deck force
    a few days prior to leaving port.
    
    How mad do you think BMC was and how surprised do you think Mr. Pulver
    was as the Chief literally dragged him up to the bridge and chewed his
    butt out in front of the Capt and XO and demanded that that particular
    dumb Sumbitch keep his nose out of the Boats' business and stand back
    as he was supposed to do...to be a safety observer.
    
    Needless to say, the Engineering Department was topside cleaning the
    oil and when we pulled back into port, and were over the side cleaning and
    painting the mess.
    
    Misguided Enzymes out of Annapolis are the Navy's (Coast Guard also)
    answer it apprears to the 2nd Looies.
    
    Actually it was kinda fun watching the Chief go bonkers and this poor
    defenseless O-1 trying to get a word in edgewise to a Chief Boats.
    
    By the way, for those who are not familiar with the Navy's Chief Boatswains
    Mate, they are probably the most respected and feared aboard ship after
    the C.O.   The Army or Marines equivilant to a Gunny Sgt. or Sgt. Major. 
    
    			
    					sk2
    

    Re .17:
    
    Welcome aboard, Steve!
    
    BTW, Steve's telling it straight about the Chief Boats - do not
    *ever* cross the Chief Boats (or any bosun mate for that matter 'cause
    he'll have the Chief Boats on you). We joke about them but that's
    where it ends.
    
    It may seem unmilitary for a Chief Petty Officer who is outranked
    by an Ensign to haul that officer up to the old man on the bridge
    but that is the US Navy - nobody is supposed to mess with the Chiefs.
    The skipper probably would have been surprised if the Chief *hadn't*
    hauled the Ensign up.
    
    Incidentally, CO's of ships, if they've got their stuff together,
    who want to try something a little out of the ordinary consult with
    their Chief Petty Officers before they try it because if anybody
    knows the ship it'll be the Chiefs. The Chiefs don't tell the CO
    how he should run his ship but if the skipper's smart, he'll listen
    to them.
    
    The corollary is that the Chiefs often consult with their First
    and Second Class Petty Officers (I did on numerous occasions) because
    they're the experts in their respective fields - the CPO is the
    middle-level manager and can't function without the firsts and seconds
    (and don't let any CPO tell you otherwise).
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    I should also mention a couple of the stock phrases used in the
    US military when an enlisted person is mistakenly addressed as "Sir"
    or "Ma'am":
    
    "Don't Sir me......I work for a living!"
    
    "Don't Sir me......it didn't take an Act of Congress to make me
    a gentleman!"
    
    "Don't Sir me......I know the names of my parents!"
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Carefully, he wades in...................
    
    Three comments -
    
         . It's interesting to see many of the same names here that
    	   are regular contributors to the Veterans file.  If I hadn't
    	   seen so many familiar name, I may have gotten upset (just
    	   kidding)
    
    	.  The original question - the DI (Lou Gossett in an Officer
    	   and a Gentleman).  Personally, and from first hand experience
    	   and knowledge, I found his portrayal very accurate.  I won't
    	   comment on the others because I don't have that knowledge.
    
    	   An O and a G was based on the US Naval School of Pre-Flight
    	   in Pensacola, Fla - though they put it on Puget Sound in
    	   Wa.  I believe the role of that school is very different
    	   from others where Marine DIs earn their keep.  Pre-Flight
    	   took civilians, spent fourteen weeks turning them into -
    	   for the most part - Officer material that could then be taught
    	   to fly.  Though I laughed (under my breath of course) at
    	   the the "screamers", I must admit that it worked.
    
    	   That was the right approach at that time.
    
    	.  Most hated rank - Once again, I gotta agree with the Chief.
    	   In the Navy, it is the Ensign.  If you have any doubt, ask anyone
    	   who has been one.  This is the only place that the basic
    	   law of gravity (s**t flows down hill) doesn't work.  To an
    	   Ensign it flows both ways!
    
    	   One of my opinions that never changed.  I thought it before
    	   I joined.  I thought it as an Ensign.  I still think it today.
    
    	   The epitome of a lose-lose situation.
    
    Finally, this is an interesting conference.  Though I've been out
    of the Reserves for seventeen years, it is good to see the words
    of those still in.  Given more time, I'll properly register......
    That is if former Ensigns are accepted. 
                             

    Re .20:
    
    No problem, Mr. Tarmey......to be fair I should make some references
    to the nos-so-positive reputation some (happily not all) Chiefs have in
    the Navy.
    
    <flame on momentarily>
    
    One USNR-TAR Chief who was stationed at my last RESCEN epitomized
    the stereotypical overweight, semi-literate, untrustworthy Chief Petty
    Officer that most PO's (and some Chiefs) come to dislike intensely. If
    he had been aboard ship, you could almost picture him in his work
    space, feet on the desk, sipping coffee, and reading Navy Times.
    Meanwhile his LPO is working his tail off doing his own job and the
    Chief's job. At best, the PO's and the Seamen in the Division think
    "well, he is a Chief" or at worst, "He's the reason I'm not staying in
    the f***ing Navy!"
    
    <flame off>
    
    Fortunately, there are enough squared-away Chiefs in the USN/USNR
    to offset the few turkeys who get their anchors.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR
    
    
    
    

    I read the following article in one of the national newspapers last
    week.  The article was titled, "At ease, Sergeant".
    
    From the Daily Mail, December 5th 1989.
    
    I'm only going to say this once, so listen, and listen good: obey
    orders, keep your rifle clean, and, above all, please try to be
    nice. You will? Oh goody. Drill sergeants have feelings too, you
    know.
    Who'd have thought it? Drill sergeants, whose autocratic, iron-lunged,
    you'll-wish-you'd-never-been-born apostless of military discipline,
    the army's invincible enforcers, can get so crushed by life that
    the Pentagon has had to start stress-management programmes for them
    at bases in Georgia, Oklahoma, and Missouri.
    "We have the image of drill sergeants as rough, dominant, hard-driving,
    who can bite nails in half," says sergeant major James Williams,
    of the infantry training centre at Fort Benning, Georgia. "But that
    guy is also a human being."
    In the programmes, stressed-out sergeants and their wives discuss
    problems in group sessions with psychiatrists and army chaplains.
    The idea is that the wives learn to appreciate the dedication and
    responsibilities of drill sergeants, and their husbands learn about
    the importance of communicating with their families and sharing
    their emotions.
    The sergeants are encouraged to observe each other for signs of
    stress and, when possible, when possible work longer hours so a
    burdened colleague can catch up on sleep or spend a little more
    time with his family. Drill sergeants tend to be isolated by their
    authority and victimised by the stern and steely image they have
    to project to maintain discipline and ensure that recruits achieve
    training goals.
    It's true that not many actually rush home to hot milk and embroidery
    but it turns out they are vulnerable like everybody else and some
    may even eat quiche. "The image is a tough guy," says one. "But,
    hey, I'm human. Once I was a private too."
    
    End of article.
    
    Comments anyone?
    
    		

 
Copied from Firearms with the original author's permission...

/. Ian .\


         <<< LOSER::DISK$LOSER_PUB:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FIREARMS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< God made man, but Sam Colt made men equal >-
================================================================================
Note 2855.22                WANTED: Flintlock pistol                    22 of 24
ELMAGO::WRODGERS "I'm the NRA - Sic Semper Tyrannis"  19 lines  11-DEC-1989 23:33
                        -< can you say, "PAST TENSE?" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can you guys stand an anecdote?  Sure you can!
    
    My Confederate unit was participating in an honor guard last summer.
    The ceremony was in a really shitty part of town.  Before my lads
    and I left our vehicles, we snapped caps and loaded with ball. 
    AT the ceremony this national guard 2nd lt.  ('nuf said?) started
    with the snide crap about toy guns, and who you gonna hurt with
    that.  I just smiled and reached into my cartridge box and drug
    out a buck and ball round.  "That's what these shoot," I said.
    
    He wasn't impressed.  "Yeah, but I can load mine faster."
                           
    I smiled again.  "If you aren't already loaded, you're dead."
    
    He pondered that for a few seconds, then stomped off mumbling something
    about damned rednecks.  I appreciated the compliment, but he was
    still a dip****.
    
    Wess-the-pre-capped-Rebel

    my 2 cents-
    
         - In 14 years I've only met one "butter bar" I liked.
         
         - I HATE anyone who walks into my office and says;
           "I'm from battalion/brigade/division and I'm here to help you"
         
         - and last but not least, those who were platoon leaders or
           company commanders during "the draft days" who compare
           their drill attendance to my unit's, and say I must be
           doing something wrong.
    
    
    Randy Schwartz
    CPT  IN NJARNG
    COMMANDING

    re .24
    
    Isn't that second line listed as one of three biggest lies?
    
    Bob Mc

    Right along with, "I had a vasectomy" :) :) :) :)
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

Looks like ensigns and 2nd Louies are fairing as well as the Denver Broncos
did yesterday.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very "good" junior officers 
years ago when I was on a diesel boat.  Perhaps things were a little different 
there than in the surface or brown shoe Navy.

I served on only one surface craft, and that was the USS Compass Island EAG153
out of Brooklyn NY.  We had only one BMC, and he was one of the sorriest 
excuses for a CPO I had ever worked with.  I flag that as the comment regarding 
BMCs from the previous note does not reflect what I have seen.  In general,
they are like other chiefs of similar skill/knowledge sets, some good, some
in the middle, and some less than 4.0.

The most respected chiefs I have ever run into were called "COB", and they were 
officially a high level direct report into the ward room.

By the way, the boats didn't carry BM's, their normal duties were carried
out by a cross rated deck force (or topside gang) which was often run
by a TM or an available "flange head".  We also only really ran the 
deck force when we were in port (and that should be obvious).

We also didn't have MAAs, but that's a topic for another discussion.

Phil

 

    

    Re .27:
    
    Phil:
    
    I know of an HTC who is presently either the Navy's sorriest excuse
    for a Chief Petty Officer or a very close second to the BMC you
    mentioned!
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Ok, being a 2LT, I am beginning to feel the wrath of some people.  What
    I'd like to put forward now is a small defense to a few of us.
    
    I will first agree that there are a great deal of 2LT's who don't know
    their a** from their elbow.  I've met many, beaten up a few and wanted
    to shoot the rest.  The "few of us" that I mentioned are former
    enlisted soldiers who know where all of the sh*t eventually rolled down
    hill to. (In regards to the note on the laws of gravity and 2LT's, yes,
    it goes both ways....go figure.)
    
    When I first received my commision, my father (a former navy PO turned
    army CW3) told me the best advice I've ever gotten besides "Don't eat
    yellow snow."  He said, "Find out who your platoon sergeant is and
    learn all you can from him without changing things."  It took a while
    of tongue biting but the advice paid off.  I just recently realized it
    after AT this past summer.  I was with my platoon as a seperate slice.
    (The main AT was at Cape Cod, MA and we were in FT. Drum, NY)  I ended
    up running interference and going to those stupid meetings.  When I
    finally had time with my platoon, it was great.  I actually felt like I
    had learned something in my 2 years as a 2LT.  I was out changing tires
    and digging holes along with the guys.  The greatest feeling came after
    we had returned to HS and I had found out that my Platoon sergeant
    wrote a glowing commendation in his AAR and also asked the CO to put me
    in for an AAM.
    
    
    Ted 
    2LT, TC
    MAARNG