Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Hi cj...
    
    I'll start with this:
    
>    I already found the note about the litigation classes in NH, but
>    her father lives in MASS.  Yes, we all know how nasty MASS is to the
>    NCP, so that's where I'm going.  Does anyone know of any class set
>    up in MASS?
    
    Were you advised to do this by an attorney?  You being the New
    Hampshirite, and he the MA resident, my initial reaction is that 
    I'd be wary of taking this to a MA court.
    
    Regardless of the statutes and guidelines, there's a lot of leeway 
    in what could be ordered (meaning there probably are no hard and 
    fast answers to your followup questions), and that's where your 
    choice of jurisdictions (not to mention the luck of the draw with 
    the judge you end up with) comes into play.
    
    You really are better off all around if you can negotiate this, but
    I understand your difficulty there...
    
    Hang in there...
    
    
    Glenn
    

        re .0
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.  Nor am I terribly intimate
    with Mass. law, but a few general things that might help.


>    .  How much difference is there between the MASS procedures and
>     New Hampshire?  I already know the $$ guidelines.  But the actual
>     filing procedures would be helpful.

    The court clerk (or whatever they call the person where you file
    the papers) can instruct you on form and procedure (although they
    will try to blow you off and tell you they can't), but they cannot
    advise you on law (what law's to quote, what facts are/are-not relevant
    to your case etc).  Law states that a pro-se litigant cannot lose
    the case because they did not follow form or procedure.  The litigant
    shall be instructed on how they need to correct their form/procedure
    and given opportunity to correct it.   You can get away with a _lot_
    of stuff a lawyer cannot.  But don't be surprised if you are sent 
    to revise/reddo/add-to some of your paperwork, and beware the
    time deadlines.

    I would suggest finding a public or college library that has a set
    of Mass. law books.  Look in the index for "child support", "divorce",
    "family-law", etc.  There should be a section on establishing child
    support.  Take your dictionary and read slowly and carefully.

>    .  If he stops paying me now, or when he finds out I'm going to do
>     this, will the court make him pay backpay?  I realize we do not

    The court can make him pay back to the date you file the case, but
    will probably not make him pay beyond that.

>    .  Do I need to present all my financial responsibilities, or just
>     those involving my daughter.  I mean, am I going to have to give
>     a copy of bills (electric, heating, etc...)?  Or will they just
>     look at our incomes.

    As far as I can tell, in most states now, financial responsibility
    doesn't count for much (not that I agree with that).  Only gross pay.
    Plug the gross pay into the formulas and---wallla!

>    .  In MASS, will this turn into a free-for-all with visitation issues
>     included, or will they just consider the support?

    Most states consider child-support and visitation two different items.
    (until you stop paying child support, that is).  But don't be
    surprised if he brings up the subject.  You will present what you
    want. He will present what he wants, and the judge will dictate
    how it will be.  No more negotiate, but neither of you may get what
    you want.


>    .  And (you're not going to like this), but what is the most recent
>     attitude toward live-ins.  That is, if he comes in claiming his whole
>     rent as an expense, will they consider that he really is only paying
>     half?  I'm not talking about her income.  Just her contribution to
>     his living expenses.

    Like I said, gross income is likely the _only_ thing that counts.

    >    .  What is the initial cost to get this all going?

    There will probably be an initial "filing fee".  Last time I did it
    an another state was about $100.  After that there will probably 
    not be much expense unless you bring in a lawyer or "expert witness"

>    I really have got to get this settled.  I do not do anything to prevent
>    his seeing his daughter.  I have never refused him time with her, no
>    matter how horribly he treats me.  But if he doesn't get his way, the
>    first thing I always hear is how I'm "keeping him from seeing his
>    daughter".  I am SO SICK of that same old whining complaint!!!  And

    However, once it is "official", you also leave yourself open to
    litigation should _you_ ever deviate from what the final judgment
    is.

>    So, could you give me a synopsis of procedure and what I need to 
>    "gather" for this whole sorry mess.   I have documented his initial
>    erratic visiting, but he got real regular and toed the line very
>    well with the lawyer intervention.  

    But he _did_ visit, and _did_ try to maintain contact, and that
    as much as anything will be a big plus in his favor when it goes
    before the judge.

    fred();

    If the NCP doesn't pay, doesn't want to pay, gives you allota poop over
    it. Go to your local DCYS, tell them your problem. And get his wadges
    attached. And forget going to court playing Perry Masion. The system
    will go after his ragged butt and that will be the end of it. Now he
    can hem and haw all he wants about visatation. And so long as you make
    your daughter avail for the court ordered visations, thats all you can
    do. If he miss's a weekend/night/day tufff noogies. Document it, and
    smile.
    
    

    RE. 1
    (Hi Glenn :-) )
    
    Actually, I think it was the first lawyer that I saw.  He practised 
    in NH.  I chose MASS because the percentage for support is higher, 
    but also because I believe he mentioned that in NH there could be no 
    changes to the order for three years, and that was not the case in MASS.  
    I think if the need be, you do not have that restriction in MASS.  Please
    correct me if I'm wrong here.  This could actually work in HIS favor,
    as his job sometimes moves, and his workdays sometimes switch.  Should
    that occur within the three years, I'd hate like heck to see what would
    happen to us, once again.
    
    RE. 2
    
    Fred..thanks for the "filing fee" info and all.  
    
    I avoided this going to court for the longest time because I was afraid 
    of the visitation that a court would approve.  But once we finally 
    fought/compromised something out through the lawyer, I am happy with 
    the present arrangement.  Whether her father likes it or not, it is a 
    fair agreement.  It just isn't what he wanted, but he got his
    overnight visits sooner than I wanted (months sooner, in fact). And 
    believe me, I did some giving too. 
    
    I'm ready to take the chance they (the court) will also agree. 
    Especially since he HAS lived by it for the three months.  It's
    only recently he's started to buck it again.  In fact, I think
    the fact that he has done well with it will be going in MY favor.
    
    But trying to switch his days around because he took time off to
    go to bike weekend, and now has to work an extra day (his day and
    overnight with his daughter) is not a good enough excuse to me.  He's 
    screwing up plans that I have.  And gave me no more than four days 
    notice.  It was specifically talked about that he give me more notice 
    on more than one occasion and he has completely ignored it on more than 
    one occasion.  If I don't agree with what he wants instead, he bullies 
    me and threatens to withold support because I'm keeping him from his 
    daughter.  It doesn't matter if I offer other alternatives.  I can't
    keep *caving* because he's finally worn me out.  I can't even make any
    plans even with an established schedule now because who knows when he
    will do this again.  He has for his past two or three visits.
    
    And I just don't have the time and strength to wait for him to grow
    up.
    
    							cj *->
    
    
    

    
    re .4

>    But trying to switch his days around because he took time off to
>    go to bike weekend, and now has to work an extra day (his day and
>    overnight with his daughter) is not a good enough excuse to me.  He's 
>    screwing up plans that I have.  And gave me no more than four days 
>    notice.  

    Even if "official", there isn't much you can do if he doesn't show up
    at the appointed time for visitation, but on the other hand you
    probably are not obligated to make other plans to make up for his
    change in plans.  However, being "official" can make things more
    restrictive on you, since it will be you who must toe the line and
    be available on the day/hour the orders say, and if he isn't flexible,
    tough, you are in contempt should he choose to make an issue of it.

    fred();

    Now I know I have only heard one side of an emotionally charged issue
    but based on that - 
    
    Jurisdiction - typically this is in the state where the child(ren) in 
    question live so I urge you to recheck that you can use a court in MA
    because they are more generous with child support.
    
    The child support is almost always calculated according to state 
    guidelines that include the gross incomes of both parties, a base 
    deduction for the CP and adjustments for child care while the CP is 
    working and medical insurance. Full details of each parties incomes and 
    expenses are required to support or argue against not using the guidelines,
    e.g. you don't work but you inherited $Ms or whatever.
    
    Involving the incomes of other parties (new husband/wife other family 
    members) is a minefield and normally to be avoided, e.g. he could argue 
    that if your parents contributed to one of you expenses or vacations that 
    it's income. 
    
    When you review the child support payment is negotiable, but it is 
    generally done on an annual basis, April tax time is favorite.
    
    He is contributing to the cost of maintaining his child's welfare, not
    doing you a favor. He has no right to use payment as a threat any more
    than you have a right to use visits as a threat. Get the court to
    garnish his pay.
    
    Visitation - it's up to you two but it will generally be alternate week
    ends (Friday night to school Monday morning), one or two overnights
    each week, 4 full weeks over the course of the year (for both of you)
    and alternate public holidays alternate years.
    
    If for whatever reason you or he decide not to use your entitlement
    the other person has no obligation (legal or otherwise) to make changes, 
    but ofcourse it works so much better when you can both be flexible, 
    reasonable and considerate. 
    
    PLEASE remember the child. They like and need consistency so don't keep
    changing the visits around to suit the adults schedule. 
    
    Martin
    
    
     
    
      
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I agree with the noter that advised you to go to the local Social
    Services. Fill out the application. Get into the system. They attach
    his wages. 
    
    They keep track of it (it's documented)
    They will work with the state of MA - MA is the state that will attach
    his pay. They'll send the check to NH and then NH will cut you a check.
    
    They will also intercept his taxes if he should get behind.
    
    If he becomes unemployed - they will attach that.
    
    You will save yourself hours and hours of time in courts.
    
    You will save yourself hundreds of dollars.
    
    The visitation will change again and again over time. Things change...
    situations come up...she will get older...school...friends....
    
    Try to work the visitation out amongst yourself...there will come a 
    time when he won't come to get her all the time...there will come a
    time when she doesn't 'want' to go. All this will pass in time. 
    
    The money of it will not go away until it is paid. This way you will
    not have to keep a reoccurring fight over it. It is done and it is
    documented and you will be able to MOVE ON with your life. He will not
    be able to manipulate you with the money. It really is an emotionally
    charged issue. That is why I'm telling you to let them deal with it.
    They are able to take him to court in an impersonal manner. When they
    garnish his wages...it's part of the job. You won't have to fight with
    him about it anymore. The courts can give him an order and you will
    still be where you are now in six months time. Been there done that.

    I've been pretty busy here, so I haven't got to respond to replies.
    
    I want especially to thank an off-line reply (Brian) for his input.  
    This was quite an eye-opener.  Although I know what he was pointing 
    out as a possbile viewpoint was way off-base, it did make me aware
    of how someone could turn things to look.  Someone unknowing of our
    past, could do the same.                     
    
    A lot of input on MASS vs NH has been very helpful and I do now 
    agree with all of you on that.
    
    The one thing I had fought over and over for, was her father to get
    consistent.  I wanted regular visits we could depend on.  He was not
    able (?) to do that for over a year.  I wanted my daughter to get to
    know him so that when she was gone with him for longer and overnight
    visits, she would be comfortable.  He went over a year never seeing
    her more than two weeks in row (mind you, I was trying to get him 
    up there WEEKLY!  And he was complaining about not enough time).  Then 
    he wouldn't be around for a week or two.  He didn't come at all for 
    three months last summer.  There were numerous times I'd call and
    say, "We really have no plans this weekend, do you want some time
    with Angeline?"  Never once did he take advantage.  This includes
    Thanksgiving and Easter and his birthday and Father's day. 
    
    There has been times (since we've finally been on an established
    schedule, which is alternating weekends, ONE overnight), when I've
    asked him to come in between weekends for whatever reasons, he has
    never taken advantage of the additional time.  THAT is why I put
    the "whining" comment in there.  I'm sure it sounded cold to many
    of you.  I just hate constantly being accused of *keeping him from
    his daughter*.  
    
    I have NEVER denied him seeing her for any reason no matter how hard
    we are fighting.  We keep it on the phone, away from my daughter's
    ears.  I do push back, however, when he gives me no notice to changes
    WHEN THEY INTERFERE WITH OUR PLANS.  If they don't, he gets nothing
    more from me than an 'OK'.  
    
    We did hit the biggest hurdle on the days he sees her.  He has a 
    four day work week, Monday to Thursday.  When he pushed for overnights,
    I wanted them to be for Friday night.  He wanted them to be Saturday
    night.  We fought like crazy over that then compromised (through his
    lawyer) for alternating weekends, alternating Friday/Saturday, 
    Saturday/Sunday.  This is what we have been doing since the beginning
    of March.  He hated agreeing to it, but I guess the lawyer convinced
    him.  (His live-in works second shift and they both like to sleep-in
    on Fridays.  Too noisy having a kid around I guess).
    
    I realize this is all a very one-sided account, as I'm sure you do.
    And I'm trying to present it in the most open possible light.  It's
    just, hey, HE is screwing up!  :-) :-) :-)
    
    				Thanks to you all!
    					cj *->

     cj,

	  I didn't mean you to feel the off-line input (which basically
     said, "gee, a really slimy opposing party could make it look like
     this...") as anything other than "watch your back."  I've been
     sensitive to that since the time I went in trying to get my children
     the needed medical care their pediatrician ordered, that the mother
     was blocking, and had to pay her attorney's costs for "harassing" her.
     I still have a hard time believing that happened....

	  Do remember you cannot change another person's behavior.  If he
     is jerking you around, he will continue to jerk you around until he
     gets tired of jerking you around.  You cannot make him stop.  You can
     only take away the handles he's jerking on -- such as, by getting
     wages garnisheed or by getting a specific visitation schedule ordered.
     And yes, he'll find others -- then you get to take _those_ away.

	  Sigh.

				     Brian

    Do the Grandparents, Aunts, Etc. on his side have anything to so with
    the child?  If so, you might consider calling them when he leaves you 
    hanging.  They are often just aching to see the child and it might do
    everyone a favor. 
    It is often difficult developing a social life as a single mother, 
    babysitters are expensive.  Often the ex may resent the idea that
    he's watching the child so you can go out 'partying' in his mind, 
    so he may leave you hanging at the last minute.  Keep up the contacts
    with his family and everyone including the child can develop good
    family relationships.  (they are also her family).
    
    As someone who's been there, my kids were small, they are now almost 
    adults.  I have a clear conscience knowing I helped them know their
    whole family.
    
    Sharon