Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    re .0

    It's going to be a tough row to hoe.  When they are older (differs per
    state) the court will take into account the children's wishes. 
    However, the courts are very reluctant to separate siblings.  Apparently
    he did not adopt the first child since he only pays  support on one. 
    Given that, the only real hope he has is to be able to _prove_ the kids
    are in serious physical or emotional danger.

    There may be something he can do about forcing the other boys to refer
    to the other man as "daddy" (it's called alienation of affection),
    and her interfering with visitation (it's called contempt of court).
    In order to do that, he will have to gather _evidence_.  The courts
    want evidence, not she-said-she-did.  Even then the court may just
    slap her hand the first couple or three times she gets hauled in.

    And, as I keep hammering on, the best way to gather evidence is to
    DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.  A diary/log/journal is admissible 
    evidence in most states.  If you can document a pattern of "punishment"
    by interfering with visitation, alienation of affection, any kind of
    emotional or physical abuse, then (and probably only then) will he have
    a chance.

    fred();

    I would tend to agree with the first response to your question.  
    
    I have been personally involved with the same issue with my current
    husband.  He was attempting to gain custody of his two children from a
    previous marriage, and after ten months of motions, GAL reports, etc..
    and 10K later we decided to drop the case.  
    
    The bottom line is if the mother is a decent person than the court will
    not change custody.  The children literally have to be in real danger
    or prove real abuse before you can change custody.
    
    Just curious, you stated you are a custodial parent of 3.  Would you
    want their Daddy to come and petition the court to change custody? 
    How would you feel if this was happening?  You have to put yourself in
    her shoes, if she doesn't want to give up those children she will fight
    to keep them.   On the other hand if she is willing to give them up it
    is possible to try to go for the custody, but unless their are some
    serious I mean really serious problems with the mother, it's
    unfortunate but the NCP Dad has no rights.  I hate to say this but the
    system in Massachusetts really stink

    And for whatever reasons, I think we should all be thankful
    that somebody who isn't the biological father can't get custody.
    If there was serious abuse, the child being removed may be an
    issue, but if some man becomes a part of my life now, and later
    isn't, there's no way he's going to get my child that isn't
    his to start with.
    
    (And please, refrain from the "no child is owned" stuff, it's
    just easier to use the pronouns on this to get the point across)
    
    						cj  *->
                                                       

>    The bottom line is if the mother is a decent person than the court will
>    not change custody.  The children literally have to be in real danger
>    or prove real abuse before you can change custody.
    
    Again and again the message I've heard in here is to never voluntarily 
    allow yourself to be put in the position as the NCP unless that's 
    absolutely what you're sure what you want and what you can live with for 
    the rest of your children's young lives.  Worry about the debts and the 
    finances later, because if you submit you're going to be worrying about 
    them and everything else anyway, multiplied many times over.
    
    I'm in a situation now where per temporary orders I already have shared
    physical custody, in my favor at 4 days/nights per week, whereby I
    maintain the primary residence.  She's out of the house, and moved to 
    another town, close-by but still outside of the school district.  I'm
    still fighting on for permanent primary custody, at least until such
    point that the writing is on the wall.  I _know_ what has happened (it
    ain't pretty), and I know in my heart where these kids' futures are 
    best cared for and protected.  My position can never be stronger than
    right now and I'll only have this opportunity once.  So, the personal 
    attitude that I have chosen to take is that I'd much rather fight and 
    lose in a just cause (and this is where you just have to throw the 
    court stats out and go on some faith) than to give in and second-guess 
    myself for the rest of my life...
    
    Glenn
    

    re .2 - Okay, Okay...I know.  I'd never let my ex get custody.  But
    he's not really the type.  He has very liberal visitation and still
    hardly ever sees them.  He wasn't around much when we were married, 
    so things aren't any different.  I guess I just see the pain my SO
    has every time he has to send them back and it kills me.  However,
    I can also relate to the mother...
    
    I guess one of the reasons I was asking was because in reading this
    file, there do seem to be some dads who have custody and I was
    wondering how they did it...that's all.
    
    Thanks for the info anyway!

    
    re .5

    A good deal of my story is in these files.  A few things that help
    are:
    1) It really does need to be done.  Custody battles are hard on kids.
       It is a choice of the lesser of evils.  Getting custody initially
       is tough, but getting it changed can be almost impossible.  Even
       when it does really need to be done.  But, as these files tell,
       it can be done.
    2) Tenacity slightly higher than the average pit bull.  You're going
       to get very frustrated.  It took me 3 tries and 9 1/2 years.
    3) Learn to be your own lawyer.  Unless you have a wagon load of money.
       Even if you do have a ton of money, it can be very difficult,
       especially if you are male, to find a lawyer that will really fight
       for you.  Learn to file your own motions and, if necessary, plead
       your own cases.
    4) Even if you have a lawyer, learn as much as possible about family
       law and divorce law.  Most Universities and public libraries have
       a set of law books at least for  the local state.  Don't be
       intimidated by the rows of volumes.  The family/divorce laws are
       only one section.  Very few lawyers, if any, know all of the laws.
       It will be slow going at first.  Reading law books is a skill that
       has to be learned, but can be learned.  It is emotionally very 
       tough.  You are going to get very angry when you find out just
       how badly you've been shafted.
    5) The kids are old enough for the courts to listen to and are willing
       to say, in court, that they want the change.
    6) Never, ever get behind in child support payments.  The courts will
       tell you that child support and visitation/custody are separate
       things.  That is only true for the mother.  They will bludgeon you 
       with it if you are behind.
    7) Stand up for your visitation rights.  Learn how to gather evidence
       and file contempt charges.  The court will probably just slap her
       on the hand the first couple of times.  You may have to go back
       several times, but after a while, she will get tired of paying
       a lawyer or get the message that you won't put up with her 
       interference, or the the judge will get tired of her b.s. and stop
       viewing her as the poor little victim.  Make sure you really do
       have a case, though, or it can backfire big time.
    8) DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.

    fred();

    RE: .4
    
    The second guessing is the exact reason why my husband and I have
    brought this case up in the first place.  We thought if we never went
    through and tried to get custody, we would have never known how the
    outcome would have been.  One other piece of information our attorney
    wAs a retired judge from the Probate courts and he told us from day one
    that we probably did not have a chance, and combined with his
    recommendation and the advice I received from this file we still went
    ahead.  
    
    
    RE: .5
    
    I also see the pain my husband is in and also myself everytime those
    children leave our home.  I know deep in their hearts they are so torn
    over this whole mess and don't really want to tell their mother that
    they would like to live closer to Dad.  They moved 1 yr ago to Amherst,
    MA so that Mommy could go back to school.  This is a 2 hr distance.  
    
    She moved the children away from family, friends, and a support network 
     that I believe is really needed.   The whole thing is that there was
    never any problem before we got married.  The children lived close by
    (15 minutes) and we were able to see them regurarly and be involved in
    their everyday lives.  With the distance that the mother has now put 
    between us, it's impossible to maintain that type of involvement.  
    We speak to them on the phone at least 1 or 2 times a day and see them
    on on alternate weekends.  The summer has been great they were with us
    for the month of July and half time the month of August.  When school
    starts it will back to the old routine.  It really bothers me because I
    can see the difference in the children's behavior when we go back to
    the "old routine" they are just not as happy.  This was one of reasons we
    attempted a change of custody or even try to get the mother to go to 
    school more locally, so that we could see more often.  
    
    I wouldn't say you shouldn't try for custody but you were looking for 
    advice and the bottom line is that you have the make your own decision
    either way.
    
    
    
      

    I also had the same question back in January, my note was 334.  I just
    went back in to look at it and the responses and I think it may be
    helpful for you.
    
    Camille
    

    On the topic of being unfit...
    
    I see my 9yr old daughter every other weekend and every Thursday
    evening from 5:30-8.  (Except for the ones that her mother interferes
    with).  Anyway, last night I showed up at the house like usual and
    there was no one home.  Although I sometimes pick my daughter up at her
    dance school, the last 2 weeks I've picker her up at here mother's
    house.  When I talked to my daughter 2 days ago, I confirmed that I'd
    be picking her up at the house and not the dance school.
    
    Anyway, I waited around last night until 7:45.  There wasn't much point
    in driving around Worcester county, and I figured either there was an
    accident or her mother had signed her up in yet another extracurricular
    activity on my time, without bothering to ask.
    
    Her mother pulled into the driveway at 7:45 and I said "Where's
    Alycia?".  She said "Where *is* Alycia?".  Then it dawned on her that
    Alycia was at the dance school and she totally lost it..."You liar, she
    told you she'd be at dance school,  you're an a**h*le, you deliberately
    planned this".  She started to drive off and yelled "Get out of the way
    or I'll run over you".  I told her to give me the number of the place
    and I'd call there to let them know she was enroute.  When I did call,
    my daughter had already had the presence of mind to call my wife, who
    went and picker her up.
    
    Bottom line, and most important, is that Alycia's ok.  Yet her mother's
    state of mind (this isn't the first time in the 4 years since I moved
    out that she's totally lost it) indicates to me that she isn't
    emotionally fit to raise tulips, never mind children.  As it turned
    out, my wife brought my daughter to my ex's house and I stayed there
    with my daughter until her mother arrived.  She practically closed the
    garage door on my head and as I left, I could hear her yelling at
    Alycia.  The reality is that I have asked her dozens of times over the
    past several years to discuss Alycia's activities with me (she totally
    refuses), and this episode wouldn't have even happened if I had been a
    party to this dance lesson being scheduled.
    
    Anyway, that's a lot of rambling, but does anyone have any feedback on
    the likelyhood that someone who totally snaps on a regular basis may be
    deemed unfit?  I don't think my daughter is living in a safe
    environment (surely not a sane one).
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mike

    re .9

    Knowing it and being able to prove it in court may be two different
    things.  Don't assume the judge will listen to you  and give you the
    benefit of the doubt in a she-said-she-did.  You have to have hard
    core _evidence_.  Evidence that the court cannot ignore.  And have
    that evidence backed up by expert witnesses(es) who will state,
    in court, that the child is being harmed or in danger of being harmed
    by the CP's actions.  

    One major way of gathering and presenting evidence is, yes--you got
    it--Document, Document, Document.  Personal logs, journals, diaries
    of who, what, when, etc, are, in most states, admissible evidence.

    fred();

    
    	My stbx plays a slightly different game....she's never at home when
    	it's time to return my daughter. Visitation on Tuesdays is from 5
    	till 8:30, her mom (I don't even refer to her as my wife anymore)
    	doesn't show up till 11PM or midnite. This happens quite often.
    
    	I've called the authorities, they say, in effect, too bad, the
    	child isn't being neglected. But if I had just dropped off my 
    	daughter without making sure her mother was home, guess who'd be
    	guilty of neglect? Yep, me!
    

        re .11

    If it were me:

    Leave a note on the door stating you were there and she wasn't, so
    she can find the daughter at your house if she wants to come get
    her, then go home.  If possible, take someone with you who can
    verify (in court if necessary) that you did go and you did leave 
    a note, and---Document, Document, Document so that you can show
    (in court if necessary) that this was not a one time incident.

    fred();

    Well, my ordeal is over.  My divorce is final, and in a shared 
    custody arrangement, I'll continue to maintain the children's 
    primary residence, even if I have to move.  They'll continue to 
    be with me most of the time, and every weekend.  And until I 
    ever have to move, I'm receiving one-third of the mortgage 
    payment so that the kids and I can stay in their lifelong home.
    
    My final thoughts on this experience: as a person, emotionally, I 
    feel raped.  As a father, I am happy, if not overjoyed, by the way 
    things worked out for my children.  If you love your children, you 
    don't ever have to give in to the destructiveness, ever.  Never, 
    and that is the _only_ way to look at it, as far as I'm concerned.
    
    Glenn
    

    
    Congratulations Glenn!!!

    And from one who can appreciate what it took to do what you did--
    Good Work!

    fred();

    Congrads Glenn! 

    *bravo* - good for you...
    
    joyce

    Good for you, Glenn, glad to see it!
    
    				cj *->