Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    	I keep hearing that alimony is becoming less and less common. I'm
    in N.H., and my wife is trying to hit me up for HUGE amounts of
    alimony. She didn't work for the last 10 years but now has a part-time
    job earning very little. She feels that she's entitled to live in the
    style she's accustomed to. Right now, under the temporary stipulation
    by the courts until the divorce is final, although I'm not paying
    "alimony," I'm effectively paying roughly 75% of my net salary for
    child support and what could be considered alimony. Basically, I'm
    paying the mortgage plus taxes, her minivan payment, and half the
    utilities on the house where she and the kids are living. As we begin
    negotiations for the final agreement, she believes she's entitled to
    alimony close to that amount, or about $1500/month on top of the
    $1500/month in child support I'm paying. I asked her and her lawyer if
    they had mistaken me, somehow, for Johnny Carson, and they were not
    amused. I don't know ANYBODY who pays anything CLOSE to these numbers!
    I don't mind the child support, but I want my wife to have incentive to
    work, and I don't mind helping her get on her feet for a short time
    with some reasonable alimony.
    	I'd like to hear what constitutes "reasonable" alimony...what other
    people are paying, what conditions I can put around the alimony so I'm
    not strapped for life, etc.. Basically, I'm all ears and want hear
    everything about this. My wife's attorney and the GAL on this case are
    putting forth proposals that set me back to where I was when I got out
    of college 16 years ago! Thanks.

    
    	Before we met she was a bartender so all wages were hidden. She has
    one child living withher from a previous marriage that I've paid
    medical, dental, etc,, etc, since we got married since the Dad is a
    deadbeat. Funny I met all of my obligations from my first marriage,
    every single week of suport paid in full up to this summer when my 
    daughter turned 18. I can't fathom getting into this BS again but she
    isn't working. We've only been married 2 1/2 years so maybe that will
    benefit the situtation. I'd like to sell the house, split the profits,
    and go on my way but that make too much sense. I think somewhere it is
    written that we must be tortured first, then shackled, the beat to a
    pulp and if you survive your a good man.....
    	Oh well....here goes!

    
    Alimony is one of those things where every state seems to do if 
    different.  Best to check with your lawyer and see what the laws
    of your state are.  Some of the ways it is still done:

    Still awarded alimony for life or until she remarries (shacking up
    doesn't count as marriage).

    No alimony per-se, but supporting the ex is figured (underhandedly)
    into the "child support".  There is no accountability for the 
    "child support" who knows how or on whom it is spent.

    Awarded "spousal support" based on number of years married, income
    during marriage, what she was making before marriage, etc., up to a 
    maximum number of years to allow her to "get on her feet".  

    fred();

    Alimoney is a pay of differnce. As in the short fall of her wadges and
    yours to live a life style that you both were acustom to having prior
    to the seperation/divorce. It is, in thieory, a short time to pay. It
    is so she can get herself back into the work place and up to speed.... 
    So offer her a short term solution along with it. Two years at a
    comunity college vs out and out years and years of paying for....
    But this is usually in lew of the fact that she had been home for 10 or
    more years and that she has no other skill sets other than being a
    house engineer. 
    
    Where she is outta house, take out a second and foot her
    re-ed-u-mac-a-tion!:) Send her back to bar school to get a skin to work
    bars again. Or a truck drivers license...:)
    
    A friend of mine who lives in Mass. is facing some heart burn too. His
    soon to be ex wanted to go back to school to become an arc-key-tech.:)
    And she is in her early 50's. And he is looking at a possible layoff
    soon. And didn't want to he out there coughing up money that might
    stave off the wolves from the front doors that hold the mortgage, or
    the oil-man rings only once these days.... So she tells him that he has
    no interest in her happyness and is filing for a divorce..... Looks
    like he is going to have to front that school program one way or
    another. 
    
    Geeeeze! I had talked to my ex years and years ago to go back to school
    as I was. 'Hell no!, I won't go!', she says. Now... she is kicking
    herself in the tush over it.
     

    Hi,
    
    I have a friend who is going through a divorce.  He was married 10
    years, and has a question regarding paying for education for his
    ex-spouse.
    
    She dropped out of high school when she was 15 or 16.  She married her 
    first husband sometime after that, and divorced him several years later
    (when she found out he couldn't have kids).  My friend and she were 
    married at age 25.  They were married 10 years and have 5 kids.  
    
    She is asking for him to pay for any schooling she wants after the
    youngest child (age 3) is in school.  I maintain that this woman
    has proven that education is not important to her because she dropped
    out of high school.  My friend claims that she will probably get what
    she wants because they all do anyway.
    
    I feel that if she wants to educate herself now, it should be her
    responsibility just as it was for each and every one of us.  My friend
    and their marriage was not the what kept her from education.  She made 
    that decision herself many years before.
    
    Does he have a case to fight this point since she proved long before
    they were married that she was not interested in educating herself?
    
    Jill

    Jill,
    
    Reality.... If she lives in Mass, chances are she will get what she
    wants. 

    No, this isn't Mass, it's Colorado
    
    And as a woman, I think that's ridiculous.  I paid my way through
    college.  She should too.
    
    Jill

    Sorry! But, life is life and going to court is like visiting Alice in
    Wonderland. Court before the madhatter, the doormouse, and the gang!
    
    How do you think many of us feel about the issue!

    Yes, I understand that life is tough, etc.  I also understand how you
    all feel about this issue and others concerning how men are treated in
    the courts, and I am in complete agreement with you.  I don't
    understand women who feel like her ex-husband "owes" her something.  I
    personally have been divorced twice, and get no support whatsoever from
    either ex, nor did I request it.  In fact, I ended up paying most of
    the community bills after each divorce.
    
    What I am looking for here is does my friend have any chance at all of 
    getting out of this?  And if not, what can I and others do to get this
    insanity rectified?
    
    Jill

    Shortly out of O.J.'en her.... Fighting like hell, raising the issue up
    every chain in the system to the point it is  heard in the fed courts
    of DC... gee.... thats about it. Less she decides to run off with
    someone else and leave the country. Beats me..... 
    
    But for the most part, this is standard sexist behaivor(sp) in the
    court systems. Sue-ing the courts, fighting in the legal trenchs like
    many of us are.... There is no other solutions at the moment. 
    
    Its about the same lines of the abortion issues. Asin, it takes two to
    make the baby, but one partner can call the shots of life and death..
    And he has no say in it. I am sorry if I raise a feather or too. Just
    making a point about the system and how it is run.
    
    I too pumped gas, flipped burgers, to get one sheep skin, then when I
    got into the field. Worked days, and schooled nights. And the days can
    be real long after that long night of the night school...... 
    
    Yes, I am fortunate to have the chance to go to college, and to have a
    beloved company like Digital to give me that golden op. But,
    man-a-live! You pay the price for it! 

        re Jill,

    Colorado has a "spousal support" provision.  The fact that she dropped
    out of H.S. before they got married may help ease matters a bit, but
    Colorado's law is based on _need_ and her standard of living during
    the marriage.  She can get up to 5 years (I think) maximum to "get her 
    act together".  Without even a H.S. diploma and 5 kids, it's going to 
    take a lot of getting together.

    Based on an intimate knowledge of how sympathetic the Colorado courts
    are to women, and the fact that the "system" is set up not on whats
    fair but to save as many state welfare dollars as possible, my guess
    is he's probably going to get reamed.

    He's also going to get nailed royal on "child support" if she's unable
    to work.

    fred();

    	My wife has shown no interest in going back to school except to
    take a quick class here or there...She has no career ambitions of any
    kind. She basically feels she shouldn't have to work, that I should
    take care of her...that she should be able to keep living the way she's
    accustomed to living (since it's all my fault anyway). And if I can't
    afford a slum to live in myself, well, it's all my fault anyway! Since
    we have joint custody and the kids spend a lot of time with me too, it
    seems funny that the courts would have the kids live like kings when
    they're with mom and like paupers when they're with me, with me footing
    the bill for everything, but it's all my fault anyway!
    	I'm not sure how far her attitude will get her in this day and age,
    and I do want to help her get on her feet somehow, preferably with
    something very short-term which gets me out of the financial loop
    quickly. We'll see. It's interesting seeing what's happening in other
    cases.

 When I was going through my divorce my estranged wife left her full time job
 and planned to hit me up with alimony along with child support. However I
 filed a motion to the court to have her seek full time gainfull employment.
 The court accepted the request and she had to comply with a ruling that she
 would seek full time employment and let me know on a monthly basis where she
 had interviewed. Prior to our fianl hearing she had procurred a full time job
 and thus alimony was no-longer and issue. The key here is she was capable of
 working and had worked during our marriage and thus with a little push she
 was working again.

 Good Luck!

    Neil...

    	Well, with signficant pushing, my wife is now working part-time at
    20 hours/week. It's a start. She works during school hours so that day
    care isn't an issue. This is her first job in 10 years, doing
    secretarial work, and she's only making $8/hour. So her gross pay of
    $160/week doesn't go too far. If she worked full-time at the same
    salary, that goes to $320/week. However, now day care is an issue. If
    we split the day care cost between us, then we still come out ahead. So
    I'll take your advice and try to push something like this through. It
    may not be an option where she currently works (to work full-time), but
    she could presumably do it elsewhere.
    	One question I had regarding day care is how long she can use this
    as an excuse to suck money out of me. Now, the boys are 8 and 10 and
    definitely still need supervision after school until she would get home
    from working that full-time job...but for how long? When the kids are
    10 and 12, do they still need this? My kids seem almost ready to take
    care of themselves for a couple of hours at home. I can certainly
    imagine them being able to do this in a couple of years from now. So
    I'm wondering if there are guidelines for such things.

    Usually around 12-13 is a good time to pick up the tab for the oldest
    to become an official, certified baby sitter.:) These little neet
    course are not much and are offered at the local Y(W/M)CA. And they can
    offer the oldest some neet way to make extra money. You might be able
    to convince the oldest for a certificate sooner. If you can convince
    him of the fincial benifits.:) And of course, if it is O.K. with all
    parties conserned.:)
    
    Peace
    

    My ex, who is the NCP in this case, has volinteered(sp) to become under
    employed. I guess its in lew of tunnel carp, she says. I believe its
    more cavern head.:) She feels that doing this will keep me from asking
    more child support in the future.

 Reply .14

 Day Care albeit an expense when the children are still to young to be left
 alone at home is not to my knowledge a factor in determining child support.
 However the parents respective incomes are. If your estranged wife is using
 day care expenses as a reason not to seek full time employment then she's
 jerking you around. At the ages your children are 8 & 10 they certainly would
 only need minimal after school care. Even at $3.00 per hour your only talking
 $12.00 per day or $60.00 per week. At $8.00 per hour her full time wages should
 sufficiently offset this amount. Remember you'll possibly be paying more in
 child support if she works less than 40 hours per week. Just as a note my child
 support payments were lowered by 40% once my ex procurred full time employment.
 By the way she is only making $8.50 per hour. My children are 8 & 10 also and
 they attend Day Care after school @ a cost of $6.50 per day.

 Neil...

 If you have any questions feel free to write or call

    
    In some states (Colorado) "child support" is considered an _added_
    expense over and above the normal child support, and you _can_ get
    stuck extra for it.  Things may be different in your state.  check
    it out with the law books or a lawyer.
    
    fred();

    	This is an offshoot of my alimony question and may fit more
    appropriately in another note thread, but I just wanted to ask. I'm
    about to attend a pretrial conference with my S2BX, our attorneys, and
    the guardian ad litem. We're all supposed to show up with drafts of our
    final orders and see if we can come to an agreement on the spot and, if
    not, schedule a final contested hearing. My S2BX and I are both highly
    motivated to resolve things soon (uncontested) so we can get on with
    our lives. Contested hearings are being scheduled for October in
    Manchester, N.H. district court right now because of the backup! For
    the sake of the kids and them being able to start the next school year
    established someplace and ready to go, we want to end it this summer.
    	Now, that said, there's a lot which is still unresolved. The
    guardian ad litem recommendation stated that the wife and kids should
    remain in Amherst, N.H. (where they are now), preferably remaining in
    the marital home, if financially possible and if not, she should be
    allowed to take the kids and move wherever she wants (Illinois). I
    found this reasoning bizarre, but there it is.
    	Anyway, neither one of us wants the house, and almost all of our
    joint assets are tied up in it. So neither of us could buy the other
    out of their share of the house...but neither of us wants to stay there
    anyway. So she started looking at real estate in Amherst and talking to
    loan officers. In a nutshell, with her part-time income plus child
    support plus some alimony (unknown at this time), she could easily
    afford the payments on a modest home in Amherst. However, there's no
    rental property available whatsoever, and she has only been working for
    a few months (after a 10-year absence from the workforce).
    	Speaking to the real estate agent and the loan officer there, they
    feel she can't qualify for a mortgage with her limited work history,
    even though she could likely make the payments and has an excellent
    credit history (joint with me). The only way to guarantee it is to have
    a cosigner on her mortgage. I've been getting pressure to be that
    cosigner, and I've refused. This seems like way too much to ask of me.
    I'm dishing out all the money so she can afford to live there. Should I
    be financially responsible for her mortgage in the event of a default,
    also making it impossible for me to move on with my life and get a
    mortgage of my own? I don't think so, but I'd like to know if anyone
    has ever heard of such a thing before.
    	What the S2BX is positioning herself to do at the pretrial
    conference is show that she can't live in Amherst. Therefore, she
    should be allowed to take the kids and move to Illinois as the guardian
    recommendation states. I would like to argue that I still think it
    would be better for the kids to live in one of the neighboring towns of
    Amherst, where there's DEFINITELY affordable rental property, where
    they still have convenient access to both parents, where they can still
    see the same friends and have the same support system even though
    they'd have to change schools and make some new friends. It's worse
    for the kids than being able to stay in Amherst, but I think it's still
    better than yanking them halfway across the country where I'll hardly
    ever see them. But I'm not sure how much of a case I'll be able to make
    for this, given the guardian's recommendation.
    	I have explored other cosigning options. Everyone in the S2BX's
    family is broke and destitute. I have spoken to *my* father about it,
    and, understandably, he's unwilling to do it. So there are really no
    cosigning options. If anyone would care to enlighten me with other
    alternatives or precedents, please do!

        re .19

    She's trying to put you between the proverbial rock and hard-spot.
    I guess it depends on how "motivated" you are got get the divorce
    over with, and keep the kids close by.  It's probably not any worse
    than her getting to keep the marital home with your name still on
    the mortgage ("no  worse" being rather relative of course).

    One powerful weapon in these cases where the CP wants to move to
    another state may be one of the studies showing that the child's
    chances of dropping out of school, getting in trouble with the law,
    or going to jail _double_ when there is no father in the child's life.
    The argument being that the CP being concerned more about short-term
    financial gain than in the future well being of the children.
    Problem is, I don't know how you'd get one of these studies as
    admissable evidence, or even where you'd get hold of one.  

    fred();

    I'll just put into my own words an important point made in the last
    two replies:
    
    1) What is the impact to the children of having to live in one
       of the better rental apartments in (say) Nashua, because the house
       in Amherst has to be sold? (Not high, in my opinion)
    
    2) What is the impact to the children of not having their father
       nearby with lots of time spent together on a reular basis (High,
       in my opinion)
    
    

    Is the s2bx from Ill?

    	Thanks for the responses so far. Yes, she is originally from
    Illinois, but she hasn't lived there for 23 years. So she has lived out
    here (Mass. and N.H.) longer than she ever lived out there. Her parents
    had moved out here for a number of years but then moved back to
    Illinois and are there now. Her sister and her family also live there.
    The S2BX claims she needs her family for emotional support to get back
    on her feet faster, which would be better for the kids. She also tries
    to claim that the kids wouldn't even miss me because I was never around
    (which is crap - she's measuring my participation in the upbringing of
    the children to hers while I worked full-time and she stayed home).
    	There's no job waiting for her out there. There's no compelling
    reason at all for her to move there except to theoretically get that
    family support from her hands-off, virtually contact-free family who
    are broke and destitute and will probably end up being a burden on her
    rather than an asset. The S2BX and my mother are closer (they still
    talk daily on the phone) than she is with her own mother. She's
    proposing to move to an area with notably worse schools and in a more
    dangerous area (there have been drive-by shootings a few streets away).
    Of course, this explains why it would be cheaper to live there.
    	I can't believe anyone in their right mind would look at this
    situation and say, yes, I think she should go ahead and be allowed to
    move to Illinois with the kids. It seems so ludicrous to me. Yet, it's
    a distinct possibility, which is amazing.
    	The lawyers seem to be saying to me, "Well, we think it would be
    better if the kids stay here. So if that's what you want, put ALL your
    money where your mouth is and pay to keep them here." Now since it's
    more expensive to stay in this area, I'm willing to help out some, but
    the things they propose sound like extortion. "Just give her the
    house" was one. I think we could find a compromise which is comfortable
    for everyone and keeps the kids in this area, but no one is saying that
    that's what's so important here. Take that as a given, and let's find a
    solution that keeps them here.

    
    Let's see,  no job waiting for her, not planning to go to school there,
    and here parents live here.  How often does she communicate with her
    sister now?  Probably not a good situation that a court would let her
    move if you contested it.  If she tries to use the "get her head 
    together" as an excuse, you can counter that it would be in the best
    interests of the children to live with you if she is unstable and
    unable to care for herself/them.  However, as you indicated, going into 
    court may well be more expensive than just giving her your equity in the 
    house.  Might try bluffing.  Make like you're going into court, then
    try to settle a month or two from now.

    fred()

    In some states. You can write into the final decree that the kids will
    not move more than XXX miles from the marrital home. I would push this
    with the attorney; and prey tell who is your attorney. Sounds like they
    are the typical pocket picking type who will promise the world and give
    you dirt....
    
    There are new studies showing the absents of a father will lead the
    children to some real problems. Esp drugs. And these studies can be
    found in some of the tabloids like Time, and Newsweek. Perhaps going
    over this in the local Nashua Libary and producing this as well as
    seeking out the professors and paying for a copy of the actual study
    will be fodder for your guns. 
    
    I would also get involved with the local Fathers United in Manchester
    NH. You can get help, by going to there on Tuesday nights.
    
    Peace