Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, however, I am looking at a
    somewhat similar situation.
    
    According to my lawyer and verified by assorted others (laywers, et.
    al.) if you refuse to pay court ordered expenses such as your 2bx 
    wife's legal fees, you can be in contempt of court with jail as a
    distinct possibility, pending trial for your ability to pay.
    
    If it is found that you can't pay then you can have your wages
    garnisheed; Federal Law allows 60% of disposable income to be 
    garnisheed (there may be some (probably small) latitude regarding
    what is personal/disposable income).
    
    Those whom the court has decided you owe may be able to forclose on
    your possessions (I'm not too clear on that point).
    
    They may also be able to bring about involuntary bankruptcy.
    
    If you chose voluntary bankruptcy, note that bankruptcy court can
    discharge your own legals fees that ran up during the divorce, but
    NOT the legal fees that your ex ran up, and which the probate court
    decided that you are to pay.
    
    However, (hearsay) I have been told, that bankruptcy judges are rather
    sympathetic to this situation and while they can't discharge that
    particular debt, the are willing to string out the payments pretty far.
    
    I've got to tell you that I'm pretty blown away by all of this. The
    whole concept of bankruptcy was so that people would NOT be struggling
    under burdensome debt their entire lives. To have spousal support such
    as lawyer fees excluded from this is deadly.
    
    	

    ditto .1.  They can throw you in jail for contempt and garnishee you wages.
    fred();

    If you take out bankruptcy, there are a lot of things you can't 
    discharge.  Back child support is one.  Another, if I remember
    right, is if you injure someone while you are driving drunk.

    fred();

    
    
    	what good will i be if i'm sitting in jail. i don't think i'll
    	have much of a job when i get out, it could only make things
    	even worse, not too mention how my kids will feel when they
    	find out mommy put daddy behind bars...

    Filing bankruptcy after the fact, discharging the bills for the ex
    might be OK. Execpt child support. I think I would look into that. I
    think that I would look into it and wait till the divorce is settled...
    The blow em off. Execpt child support.... 
    
    I had taken out a personal loan from some secondary instutition, that
    loans money at a loan shark level.... say 24% to wadge my war.
    
    When all was said and done, not intentionally, filled bankruptcy. And
    blew off the loan sharks, and lost a few other things like the bloody
    income property that was a marginal business. But, It might be worth a
    lookie see. Try looking up what a chapter 13 can do for you vs a 7.
    
    

    re .3
    
>    	what good will i be if i'm sitting in jail. i don't think i'll
>    	have much of a job when i get out, it could only make things
>    	even worse, not too mention how my kids will feel when they
>    	find out mommy put daddy behind bars...
    
    The courts and legislatures are banking on you figuring out that
    working and paying is still a better deal for _you_ than sitting
    in the greybar hotel.  
    
    fred();

    
    
    	I can't imagine the court system placing a man jail for those
    	kind of demands. If i'm paying my child support than the
    	case should be closed. I guess the only way for me to find out
    	is to not pay. I wonder if my x will let the kids come visit me
    	in jail..the whole things is crazy, "hey buddy what are you in for
    	murder, stealing, driving under the influence?? no I'm in for 
    	somthing much worse i'm doing hard time for not paying on my
    	x's visa card" what a joke. i swear the world is coming to a end.
    	it couldn't get any crazier. when the next shuttle leaving i think
    	it's time to blast off.

    
    
    
    	If I do the time do I still have to pay the debt forced apon me?
    	because if I don't then come and get me. I think I still have my
    	ball and chain in the closet my x was kind  enough to leave it
    	for me.

        re .7
    
    >	If I do the time do I still have to pay the debt forced upon me?
>    	because if I don't then come and get me. I think I still have my
>    	ball and chain in the closet my x was kind  enough to leave it
>    	for me.

    Tossing you is jail is not for not paying.  Its for defying the
    mastery of the courts.

    You'll still probably have to pay the debt.  The jail time is just
    to make you see the wisdom of paying up.  Most likely they (the 
    creditors) will just take you through the "normal" debt collection
    process complete with ruining your credit, attaching any property,
    or garnisheeing your wages.  Plus _their_ court fees for having to
    haul you into court again.

    fred();

    Debts that the probate court has determined you must pay, such as
    attorney's fees for your 2bx ARE NOT DISCHARGEABLE IN BANKRUPTCY.
    
    NOTE that I am NOT talking about child support, I AM TALKING ABOUT
    SPOUSAL SUPPORT. Spousal support, such as a ruling/order that you are
    required to pay for some or all of her attorney's fees IS NOT
    DISCHARGEABLE by the Federal Bankruptcy court.
    
    This is not speculation on my part; I paid a rather large hourly sum to
    consult with a bankruptcy attorney and was clearly told the above.
    
    If you fail to pay, they may not be able to declear it a felony as the
    can for failure to pay child support, but they sure can lock you up.
    
    

    AAh. But if the money is to pay only the lawyers fees of the opposing
    camp.... Make you token payments. Then.....:)

    
    Depending if you are prepared to go to jail and lose your job in the
    process. 
    
    Making token payments will most definitely not stop jail--it depends on
    the whim of the judge, certain ones are known for putting as many as
    18-20 dads in jail each week.
    
    Yes, by Federal guidelines, we no longer have a debtors prison, but
    state (Massachusetts) actions, we certainly do have debtors prison!!!
    

    Does anyone know what the % is of those who get stuck paying the
    X's bill?? I would be really interested in details such as this one,
    as well as what the reasoning was given by the judge for favoring that
    decision.
    
    Dave

    It may depend on one simple fact, who's name is on the credit card? If the
    credit card is in the wife's name, then you would be crazy to agree to
    pay her debt on her card.  If the debt is in your name, then you own
    it, even if she has a second card and ran up the bills in question.  
    
    There is always an attempt made to negotiate these things up front, if
    there is any possiblity that you can negotiate this even somewhat
    fairly, then do it!!!!!!  Never....Never....Never.....Never let the
    judge decide how things should be split, divided, or who should pay
    what debt, you will regret the decision to do this the rest of the time
    your children are growing up, and maybe the rest of your life!
    
    Also remember, that you are asked to sign whatever document is drawn up, 
    and you should never.....never......never.....never sign anything that you
    do not agree that you can live with, and never....never....never sign
    anything that you are being put under "Duress" to sign, be it by the
    judge ordering you to sign (which definitely puts you under duress), or
    by any other sneaky, underhanded method which might be used to get you
    to sign a document that you do not of your own free will agree to sign.
    
    The best way to draw up an agreement, is between you and your ex,
    eliminate the hostility now if at all possible, if you can't patch up
    your marriage with 4 kids, then you can expect to pay (depending upon
    how much your wife earns), more then 33% of your gross pay in child
    support each week until the kids reach majority, plus insurance, etc.
    etc. etc..  Judges do not favor men, even when the men have some of 
    the children in their custody! When she has all the kids forget it.  So
    don't even think you will get an even break from a judge.  And once you
    have signed your name to an agreement, you are expected to deliver what
    you have agreed to for the length of that contract......  Don't even
    think of trying to work around the system, there are a few very
    unpleasant ways to screw around with the court system, but it just
    isn't worth it, it takes too long, costs you too much of your life and
    doesn't end up doing anything except screwing you, your ex and your
    kids! This may seem preferable to you at this early stage of your
    divorce, but believe me......down the road.....once you have built
    wisdom on this issue, you won't think it was the best thing to have
    done.  
    
    You don't want to waste any of your life fighting, and in pain, let
    alone the next X number of years till the kids are grown!  This can
    and will ruin your life if you let it......DON'T LET IT!
    
    NEGOTIATE THIS WITH THE WIFE AND A MEDIATOR, try to get as fair a split
    as you can negotiate from the wife, try to reach agreement on the child
    support she needs from you......do not alienate her any further, she is
    the only chance you have at fairness!  This is also the only chance
    you and your family will have to bury the axe and continue living in
    even a somewhat normal manner.  No matter how angry you are, negotiate
    at all costs.  No matter how bad your soon to be ex is, she cannot
    possibly be worse then the court system will be once you have totally
    alienated her.
    
    No matter how bad your situation is right now, and no matter how angry
    you and your stbX are, you can stop the anger and fighting  right
    now and start to talk about this.  Absolutely nobody beneftis from an
    angry divorce, its hurts your children, it permanently wounds you the
    most of all.  
    
    Throw your anger off and don't let it interfere with your good
    judgement!  Keep your cool, Have your friends and this notesfile share
    your anger and pain........negotiate with your Ex.
    
    Good Luck!!!!