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Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

Title:Welcome to the Non-Custodial Parents Conference
Notice:Please read 1.* before writing anything
Moderator:MIASYS::HETRICK
Created:Sun Feb 25 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:420
Total number of notes:4370

296.0. "Time - how much does it take?" by USMVS::BRACE () Tue Jan 18 1994 15:25

    I would appreciate some advice and commentary on the subject of "time." 
    Time for healing.  Time for recovery.  Time for children's
    reconciliation.  Time for financial progress.  Time to get yourself
    back together.
    
    This was sparked by one of the replies to the previous Note which
    indicated that yes, the base noter could find someone else in the ~5
    Billion sea of people... in time.
    
    For me:
    
    It's been 1 1/2 years since my divorce.  I'm living alone, although
    near my kids and see my two boys every Wed. night for ~2 hours and
    every other weekend.  My daughter (17) has refused to have anything to
    do with me for the last year.  
    
    My ex still tries to harass me as much as possible & regularly brings
    court actions.  She refuses to answer the phone (or immediately hangs
    up if she does) and refuses to cooperate at all about anything.
    (Although SHE was the one who initiated the divorce.)  She has
    intimidated & psychologically abused my kids to a terrible extent. 
    They woun't/can't call, they won't talk at all about _any_thing -- even
    what they're doing in school.  To a direct question they may give an
    answer of a couple of words.
    
    I have deliberately NOT talked down about their mother or told them
    that they couldn't say anything about me, my place & things, what I do,
    what we do, etc.  Although she pumps them for information after each
    visit.
    
    How long does this continue???  Does anyone have any "good" coping
    strategies in the interim?
    
    Although I've had "girl"friends including one live-in for a while I
    find that I carry a lot of 'baggage' (or at least I think that I do) 
    and am supersensitive about some things/issues/behavior. My ex can
    still hit a hot button that can really get to me even though I'm trying
    to desensitize from her/them.  --Her using my kids & putting them in
    the middle doesn't help this _at all_.
    
    I'm working 3 jobs to try and reestablish some financial stability, so
    that it seems that all I do is work -- with breaks to see my kids --. 
    This does _NOT_ make a well-rounded (let alone interesting) person & I
    have not had any time for any sort of social life (is there such a
    thing?) for months and months.
    
    When (and how!) do you start getting out of this hole?  When do your
    kids?  How do you help them and yourself to shorten the time?
    
    Any suggestions, ideas, or experiences would be greatly appreciated.
    (you can also say that I'm all wet for asking, but after  a year and a
    half it doesn't seem like I've made much progress -- that's why I've
    asked.)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    
     
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296.1AIMHI::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaWed Jan 19 1994 07:1323
    Someone her came up with a briliant idea about having pictures of the
    father with child(ren) on a photostat on a T shirt that says "I Love My
    Dad". I don't know if this is the time to introduce this. But It might
    be a consideration. 
    
    As a male, your going to find that men bashing is a favorite past time.
    All the woes of the world will fall on you. And I would or can only say
    to you is to be steadfast with your consistancy of visitation. Don't
    give up on them. Children have a bullsh*t meter. You can pump them full
    of crappie. Then they unload and will seek the truth. If you continue
    to stay with them, do what you can to be their father, still, chances
    are in a number of years, they will start to understand you and treat
    you like a dad, or a human, or a person with respect, feeling and all
    other attributes.
    
    The bitterness of the ex will cool down if or when she finds another.
    For some... its never. They take this hate to their graves. Hopefully
    your 17 year old will get over this too. 
    
    The best revenge for a bad marriage is to live a prosperous life. And
    so, counting the blessings you do have is a good start. 
    
    Peace
296.2CSC32::HADDOCKDon't Tell My Achy-Breaky BackWed Jan 19 1994 10:0051
        re .0 
    
    You're not going to like this, but... you probably never will be
    completely free of the B.S. until the kids are grown or she gets
    hit by a truck or something.  People have the misconception that
    divorce will stop the B.S. in the marriage.  All too often, it
    just gets worse.  She's probably pretty bitter in that she thought
    that divorce was going to fix all her problems and  it hasn't.
    She has this big hate going and is determined to share the misery,
    and now she has even bigger tools to carry that out.  There's not
    a whole lot you can do about it short of breaking off all contact
    with the kids and her.  This is why a lot of guys will do just that.
    However, short of becoming a "deadbeat dad" you are not going to 
    be able to escape the legal b.s.   Again that is, IMHO, why a lot
    of men do just that, and they're turning the screws tighter and
    tighter on "deadbeat dads".

    The time it takes will depend on you.  Most "counselors" say to
    stay out of new relationship for at least a year to get rid of
    the baggage.   About the only thing you can do about it is to 1)
    accept the fact that the b.s. is probably never going to end, 2)
    the b.s. is being generated by her for whatever reason, 3) the
    b.s. really has nothing to do with you personally.  It's just her
    method of spreading the misery.

    One thing you might be able to do to lessen the b.s. is to build
    a case against her to take into court.  That brings us back to
    DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.  Document all contacts in a log/journal.
    What, when, where, what happened, etc.  Especially in cases where she
    has interfered with your contact and visitation with the kids.  Establish 
    a pattern of behavior.  Support the journal with anything else you can 
    come up with as in receipts, and witnesses if possible.  If you can do that
    you may be able to smack her in court hard enough to get her to back
    off a bit.  My ex and her attorney kept harassing me about "when
    are you going to pay the child support" when I'd already paid it.  I
    filed a paper asking the court to order them to back off.  The court
    didn't do anything, but her attorney dumped her (the last thing the
    attorney wants is an ethics hassle), and she backed off.

    Keep trying.  If you're documenting  things right, each time she
    interferes or harasses you, it will not be a loss.  It will be just
    one more piece of evidence you will need to yank her chain in court.

    You may need to get some "grief counseling".  You have suffered a 
    huge loss.  The death of a relationship.  Yor're going to have to
    deal with that.  In these cases, I really do think that suffering
    a loss through death is easier to cope with.  Death is final.  There's
    nothing more you can do, but in divorce, the b.s. is like the
    Pink Bunny on TV.
    
    fred();
296.3Showing some class.STOWOA::NOETHMike Noeth, DTN 276-9282Wed Jan 19 1994 10:0514
    Re: 0.  I have to commend you for not trashing your ex in front of the
    kids.  It's hard, and there are plenty of times when I've had to bite
    my toung.  I've also been present on two occasions when my ex trashed
    me in front of my daughter.  I know that my daughter is smart enough to
    see the truth about me, regardless of what the wicked witch of the east
    tells her.
    
    As for time (and to the previous response' point), some people will
    take the hate to their grave.  Well you can't get drawn into your ex'
    "divorce hangover" (to quote one of the many good books on the topic). 
    To use another cliche, keep looking forward because "there's no future
    in the past".
    
    Mike
296.4the beat goes onJOKUR::LASLOCKYWed Jan 19 1994 11:0126
Re: 0. I must agree with Fred that the BS will never end, but you can 
control it to some extent.  I have found that in the thing that works 
best in a bitter situation is to minimize the contact with the ex.  
Most of the time they have nothing to say that you need to hear, so just 
say good bye and hang up, or tune it out.  I know that's hard to do, 
but she can't hit a hot button if you aren't listening.  If she's like
my ex she has nothing to say about the kids, just hurtful things for you. 
I know in my case my ex will curse me and be bitter all the way to her
grave.

As far as the kids go, keep plugging at it.  Keep all of your visitations
and keep in contact as much as you can.  For the 17 year old, well, just 
let her know that you love her, try to at least talk to her if you can.  
Keep the door open and hope that she'll come around.

You said that you are working 3 jobs and that she keeps having court 
actions.  knowing the way the court works, has she tried to increase her
support based on the income from the three jobs???  If not, be forwarned
it could be a losing situation.

Hang in there, there is life after divorce.  The best revenge is living 
well.

best wishes

Bob
296.5CSC32::HADDOCKDon't Tell My Achy-Breaky BackWed Jan 19 1994 12:0133
        re push buttons.

    The thing that you have to do about her pushing your buttons is
    to learn that her b.s. doesn't represent the the real you.  It's
    just her way of unloading her hate on you.   It's a tough thing
    when someone that you still have feelings (good or bad) about their
    opinion of you keeps trashing you.  Its tough when this person that
    used to care about you at one time has turned into a vicious snake. The
    key word is _turned_.  This is no longer the person that you married or
    were married to.  

    You have to learn to judge yourself for yourself.  Don't depend on
    her or anyone else to define your character.  Contrary modern
    political campaign  propaganda, character is _everything_.  As
    they said on a TV show the other night, "Character---you're supposed
    to have it, not be it".  One way to do that is to take  a personal
    inventory.  Set down on paper two columns.  One columns you put down 
    your bad characteristics, and the other column you  put down your good 
    characteristics.   Before you start this, however, make a list of the 
    things in life that really _are_  important, and take your personal 
    inventory based on those traits.

    You can draw some comfort from the fact that the worst thing you can
    probably do to her is nothing.  She will then wallow in her hate
    and misery for the rest of her life.  The kids will figure her out
    as they grow older.  Your position will end some day when the kids
    are old enough that the "child support" will be cut off (if you
    can't get custody of them first).   Her misery is going to last
    the rest of her life.  And as a couple other's have said, "the
    best revenge is to get your &^%$%# together and live a good
    life in spite of her best efforts to trash you".

    fred();
296.6Change thingsNSTG::SHEEHANWed Jan 19 1994 15:3582
Re. 296.0

 "The most effective way to cope with change is to help create it"

 Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back in the race. Only you
 can control how you feel about anything. Also only you can change the
 way you think about yourself and others.

>    My ex still tries to harass me as much as possible & regularly brings
>    court actions.  She refuses to answer the phone (or immediately hangs
>    up if she does) and refuses to cooperate at all about anything.
>    (Although SHE was the one who initiated the divorce.)  She has
>    intimidated & psychologically abused my kids to a terrible extent. 
>    They woun't/can't call, they won't talk at all about _any_thing -- even
>    what they're doing in school.  To a direct question they may give an
>    answer of a couple of words.

 My suggestion is deal with your ex on a purely business level. In this
 case your business is raising your children. You have input to this and
 can nurture them in your own way. You can't change how she nurtures them
 when they are with her even if you wanted to so don't even think of trying.

>    They woun't/can't call, they won't talk at all about _any_thing -- even
>    what they're doing in school.  To a direct question they may give an
>    answer of a couple of words.

 Maybe your asking the wrong questions. Instead of asking them why they don't
 call you or asking them what they did in school, talk with them about something
 they are interested in like last nights game or nintendo or something. Be their
 friend and talk to them like their friend and you just might have them calling
 you all the time.
 
>    It's been 1 1/2 years since my divorce.  I'm living alone, although
>    near my kids and see my two boys every Wed. night for ~2 hours and
>    every other weekend.  My daughter (17) has refused to have anything to
>    do with me for the last year.  

 Be there for your kids when they need you and want you and give them some
 slack when they don't. Most teens go through a rebellious period where the
 parent is the last person they want to do things with or be seen with. This
 is normal and you have to accept it and not make it a big issue. Let your
 kids know that you are there for them in non intrusive ways. Tell her she
 can have her freinds over your place sometimes if she'd like to have a party
 or something when you won't be there. Offer to give her and her friends rides
 to the Mall, Movies or even concerts if she doesn't drive. If she does drive
 let her use your car from time to time. She'll surely turn around if she thinks
 your a cool Dad.

>    I have deliberately NOT talked down about their mother or told them
>    that they couldn't say anything about me, my place & things, what I do,
>    what we do, etc.  Although she pumps them for information after each
>    visit.

 Good! you should never say anything bad about their mother no matter what
 you think of her. If she pumps them for info. so what, you've got nothing to
 hide. Just don't go pumping them for info about her. Kids will tell you freely
 if they have a problem with her once they know that you are they're confidant
 and won't go off and blast their mother because of something they told you.


>    When (and how!) do you start getting out of this hole?  When do your
>    kids?  How do you help them and yourself to shorten the time?
     
 Get involved with something that gives you pleasue! A hobby, a club, or a
 single parent group like Parents Without Partners where you can meet new
 people and make new friends. Think of yourself as a person who is single
 instead of divorced. Do things with your kids! Quit one of your 3 jobs and
 live a little. All the money in the world won't change your loneliness. But
 having friends to share in some good times will. Your kids will enjoy seeing
 you happy again and you'll feel much better being with them if you are not
 depressed. Who knows the women might even start to look at you differently
 when you appear to be a fun guy to be around and who has lots of interests
 and some free time on his hands as well.


 Have Fun!!!

   Neil....


  
296.7AIMHI::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaThu Jan 20 1994 08:236
    I will also concur with .6 on keep things only at a business level. Do
    not discuss with the ex anything personal. Execpt the welfare of the
    children. And if she starts down a rodent hole, either cut her off with
    your busy and have other things to attend to.
    
    
296.8Okay, a little more than .02ABACUS::MCCLELLAN_WThu Jan 20 1994 13:35125
    STEVE:
    
    Welcome to the club - a club noone wants to be in.  But here we be.
    Some real good advice in the previous notes, and I'll just add my
    .02:
    
    Your questions around healing really relate to YOU, and only YOU.  
    Your children will heal in their own time (which will more than
    likely take a long, long time; given the poison they are being
    fed), your ex in her own time (as she wants), and YOU depending on
    how much effort YOU want to put into YOU.  
    
    As a previous noter said, you both have suffered a tremendous loss -
    a death, and as such, the stages of recovery are exactly the same as
    with a physical death.  My first advice is to seek out either 
    individual counseling for a while (if you can financially- and don't
    forget to check into state assistance), and a support group; as
    also mentioned previously.  It is important that you KNOW you are
    not alone in this, and that help is there.  If you are serious about
    healing, there is only one way:  "The only way out is through."  You
    won't regret your decision.
    
    As best you can, take an honest inventory of yourself - what did you
    contribute to the death of your marriage.  Before you can move on,
    you need to honestly and sincerely take inventory of yourself and
    your contribution.  THIS IS HARD, but oh so freeing, if you can do
    it.  And, by the way, there is no time limit here.  If you can't do
    it now, do it later when you can.  All things in their time.
    
    In taking inventory, solicit all input - yes, even from the ex - 
    friends, coworkers, family, etc.  Notice I didn't say ACCEPT, I 
    said SOLICIT.  Once you have the input, honestly analyze it; keep
    what fits, discard the rest.  A support group or therapist is
    excellent in helping you though this process.  
    
    The beauty of this is that if there is anything you don't like, you
    CAN change!  And keep in mind, we're not talking about an overnight
    process here; it takes time.  One of the best things I was ever told
    was by a partner who was leaving.  She told me I was a very negative
    person.  That wasn't the real reason for leaving, but that's okay.
    I took that info, digested it, analyzed it, and with help from my
    support group and therapist accepted it was true.  I am happy to
    report I am now in the process of reprogramming myself to be an
    optimist.  It's been over a year now, but I HAVE CHANGED, and this
    has had a profound impact on my life.  The point is the source of the 
    input is unimportant, it's what you come to discover about yourself 
    that counts.
    
    Take inventory of your lifestyle:  are you a substance abuser?  Is
    your ex?  Remember that we our brains are chemical compositions, and
    that what we ingest affects how we think.  Drugs do affect thinking
    patterns, as do families of origins.  In your inventory, include YOUR
    childhood; what models were YOU given?  What models was SHE given?
    How are you eating?  Are you eating?  In short, are you taking care
    of yourself?
    
    You are wise to understand you are carrying a lot of baggage, and that
    you need to unload it.  You don't necessarily have to unload it as
    I am describing, but you DO have to unload it.  Otherwise, as you
    correctly deduce, no other meaningful relationship is possible.
    
    Not knowing details, I would say unless you did something to incur 
    such anger on her part, she has a lot of repressed anger that 
    manifested itself in your divorce and you are the object of that
    projection.  It may not have anything to do with you at all, but
    you get the storm.  Lucky you. ;-)  This is why the emphasis on YOU.
    And, if you did do something that resulted in the divorce, then that
    too is out of your hands, so that again, you are left with YOU.
    
    As for your children's recovery, again, as mentioned in a previous
    note, children are incredibly mentally strong - and smart.  You
    children KNOW.  My situation was exactly the same as yours.  And
    like you, I hung in there, and was there for them.  The end result
    is that she has been, and is paying the price of dispensing that
    poison.  I am not.  You may not see it now, but stay true to your
    course where your children are involved, it will come out in the
    end.  
    
    How long does the BS last?  That's a tough question to answer as each
    case is different.  I would venture to say there will be some BS
    always.  However, there is the possibility of a reduction of flow
    over time.  It is said that around 10 years after a divorce, dueling
    parties start to tire.  10 years may sound like a long time, and I
    guess it is.  I also feel that it is possible to reduce that time.
    
    One of the ways to reduce it is in not responding to button-pushing.
    This worked for me, and at first I couldn't believe.  Again, I needed
    outside help to understand I was having my buttons pushed, and that
    I was still under her control by responding.  I was so angry at this
    revelation that I swore I would work to stop responding.  It took a
    while, but I finally did it.  And guess what, the BS flow started to
    reduce.  Amazing.  Why?  Because I wasn't fun to play with anymore.
    God, some things are so simple, but we get so emotionally enmeshed
    with it.
    
    I've been separated for 12 years, divorced for 10.  Over the past 4
    years, I finally began taking the advice I've listed above for you.
    As I have been concentrating on and healing myself, a very curious
    thing has been happening:  my children have been healing, and the
    uttely hostile relationship with my ex has also been subsiding.  So
    much so that this past Christmas we actually went in half's on the
    children's gifts and she had me over for Christmas Eve.  Granted it
    was a bit strained, and my children are still in shock.  I am a 
    little myself, as my ex probably is too.  Does this mean the BS is
    over?  No, of course not.  But it does mean that **I** have found
    peace.  It was a miracle.  It wasn't over night.  I have been busting
    my *ss for 4 years, and it's paying off.  
    
    Will we ever be buddies?  NO.  We actually don't really like each
    other.  However, we also recognize we still have a relationship, and
    we have a mutual interest in our children.  
    
    The moral is that things can mellow out.  Maybe.  Maybe not.
    
    Sorry this got a bit longwinded.  One last thing.  Should you choose
    to actively participate in real healing, recognize it is a spiritual
    journey.  I'm not talking religion, I'm talking spirituality; 
    initially that private, quiet relationship you have with your inner
    self.  That is where healing occurs.  
    
    God bless, and good luck.
    
    Peace,
    
    Bill