| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 284.1 | The Massachusetts Miracle | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Oct 18 1993 09:48 | 25 |
| Welcome to the Massachusetts miracle underground economy. Brought on
by the family court system thinking that they can take most of
the fathers paycheck and still expect them to survive....You happen to
be unfortunate enough to be getting hit by this on both sides, you both
pay and receive, and he has evidently decided he isn't going to play
the game anymore. I'm sure the court in their infinite wisdom will
continue to nail him for most of his take home pay even if he doesn't
have any on the record, he won't be able to pay it and live too, so
they will eventually throw him in jail. That sure fixes the situation,
then he earns nothing, your wife gets no support for the kids and we
the taxpayers will get to support him in jail.
I think its time that the court system reassess just how much child
support can be afforded without sinking the ship and nip the self
preservation tactics in the bud. Children are entitled to the financial
support of both their parents, not just their father. They are also
entitled to spend equal time with both parents, not just their mother.
Massachusetts is spending millions upon millions of their taxpayers
dollars chasing down so called "Dead Beat Dads" when this could be
resolved by two efforts, increased efforts toward Pay equity for women,
equal parenting and equal financial support. these would put some
sanity back into the family court system and eliminate the adversarial
no-win situation they have created for all of us today.
|
| 284.2 | I agree but not this case | GIAMEM::HOVEY | | Mon Oct 18 1993 11:12 | 22 |
|
I agree with your views but in this case it's a little different.
This guy has never paid unless ordered by the court, when he's quit
jobs or lost his job he's never contacted his ex, just stopped paying.
He has a son who's 23 years old in Tennesee that he's never paid a
nickel support to his other ex in 21 years. She just said this guy
wasn't worth the aggravation and moved away.
The wife's ex and I talked last month and I was all for the
modification. He had me convinced he was going to school, etc. to get
his life back together. No problem with that on this end. Then the wife
finds our he's been working since Sept 1 at a buddy's dealership. Also
on the way uo to the mall I see him out there showing cars. Now, being
broke from paying out both sides of my pockets this pisses me off. Even
if the guy called and said" hey, I'm working on commission only, etc.".
I'd buy that with no questions.
He so far in arrears from previous non-payments that he'll never
catch up. He's never filed for modification before, as he once put it,
" If they want me they can come and get me". So it's just snowballed,
yet as a man I still can feel "some" for the guy. He's screwed up big
time in meeting his committments, he agreed to the divorce decree's
payments and did not meet the guidlines. In this case I don't know if
he did himself in or the system did, I think it was him.
|
| 284.3 | | AIMHI::RAUH | I survived the Cruel Spa | Mon Oct 18 1993 12:07 | 15 |
| George,
Try getting a court order to have the lad cough up his 1040 statements
for the last couple of years. And then take some pictures, if you can
and drop a dime on the slime to the IRS. Now he has two devils to dance
with. And one of them will place him in jail.;) For starters, if he
slips thru the cracks. Drop a slime dime to the IRS for starters. Thus
not only will he get his hand whacked, maybe the car dealership will be
called on the carpet. And they don't like to do that if they have
someone who isnt doing what they should be doing. Imagine having to
coff up the last 7 years of nontaxable/taxable income.
JUst Doesnt Get any Better than This!!:)
|
| 284.4 | There are dead beats but consider..... | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Oct 18 1993 12:55 | 133 |
| Most guys don't have a choice with the divorce decree, the court does
whatever they want, if it hasn't been negotiated by the couple outside
of the court, the father can expect to really get ripped off on a
permanent basis by the judge. Of course, there are no real winners
in a divorce, but they have certainly tipped the scales towards the
mother's side, so much so that many men are being forced to play the
type of games you are describing. If the wife does not work, or works
only part time, then the father will be required to pay so much that
he will not be able to survive. This is, and will continue to cause men
to run from support, even the good ones. If he can't live he does
what he must to survive.
I'm sure that some court cases turn out better then this for some men,
but if they have a non-working wife who decides she does not wish
to work to help support the kids, then they are in for some really
rough times.
The situations I've seen that were the most unfair were where the
couple split the kids, each taking one. I would think this would call
for balancing the incomes, and both parents working full time if the
kids are not real young, but not so. In one case, the Judge
ordered the father to pay 33% of his pay each week, plus health
insurance for his ex and the kids.
That left him supporting the oldest child (13yrs) on his own,
plus sending the ex $300.00 per week child support for the other kid
(11 yrs), plus paying out for family health insurance each week, plus
picking up all of the non-covered Doctor and Dentist bills for the wife
and her kid as well as he and his kid. This left him with about
$350.00 per week income to pay for work clothes, pay rent, buy food,
pay for car, buy stuff for the child that lived with him, plus pay all
the medical and dental expenditures that the insurance didn't cover.
Real difficult to do in this state. His Ex also received the family home
until the youngest child reaches 18 to 23 yrs of age. He also got
custody of all their collective bills. His ex got custody of 90% of
their collective property, they couldn't agree on a split, so the court
refused to split it for them......and just gave 90% to her, leaving him
with the few items he had been allowed to take when he agreed that he
would be the one to move out.
His ex then had her boyfriend move into the family home with her, so:
She has one of their two children.
She has the family home.
She got $300. per week child support from him.
She worked part time and earned $100. per week.
She gets the $15,000.00 deduction for being a custodial parent.
Her boyfriend is also contributing to her income.
She got three cars.
He has one of their two children living with him.
He had to rent an apartment.
He got "$0.0" child support for his child.
He worked full time at a very stressful job to provide the income.
The judge didn't give him $15,000.00 deduction for being a custodial parent.
He had to buy a car. (the ex got their 3 vehicles, he got 1 motorcycle).
He couldn't survive, he assumed the court must have made a mistake, he
fought this for 6 years before he caught on, no luck, the attitude
the court takes is tough #$%*. They have no empathy for the father,
even when he is a custodial parent just like the mother.
He is still embroiled in this, and it continues to ruin his life. Every
time he went back to court to try and get a fair decision on the child
support, they increased his child support to her. This is many judges
answer to having men come back to court after an unfair child support
decision is rendered, just keep increasing the payments, that'll teach
em!
The court says it is interested in the best interests of the children,
but this is only if they live with the mother! Once they move in with
the father the court still counts them as being with the mother for
purposes of child support.
If you and your wife can negotiate with this guy and get him to agree
to some amount of money each week, (and have him stick to his word), in
exchange for your wife not going after him every time he turns around,
you may be able to work this out.
It doesn't matter if the DOR and the court are on your wifes side, if
this guy refuses to work above board and no longer cares what happens
to him, then you have problems unless you can work some kind of deal
with him directly, that is unless having him in jail will make you feel
good enough that the lack of support won't matter!
Sounds like you are dealing with a hopeless person who doesn't care
anymore. (of course he could be just a bumb, but you could try
this and see what happens).
See if you can negotiate for something, If not, its going to be a long
road till the kids reach majority. If he will give his word and stick
to it, and agree to pay a fair and reasonable negotiated amount to his
ex, and pay it through the DOR, and in exchange your wife agrees to not
go after him unless he stops paying, That may be the most fair
arrangement you and your wife will ever get from him.
The court can order him to pay any amount they decide, but if it is
more then he can pay and have a life, and if he truly has caught on
to the system and how it works against him, then he knows every time
he manages to get his finances in better shape, that his ex can drag
him back into court and get more money, plunging him deeper into poverty,
so...he isn't going to do it. In fact, the State plans on putting in
automatic increases on child support in the next couple of years, that
way there is no possibility that the father will ever be able to get
any half way decent standard of living for himself as long as the kids
are under 23.
We all know there are truly some real dead beats running around, both
male and female, but under the scenario above, you can see why simple
survival might require that fathers duck their responsibilities. This is
a no win game, but I think by the time many fathers start playing
these games, they have been worked over so much by the system, that
they just don't care any more, and are proving the point that they
can share the pain with their ex!
One more point, remember there is no point in fathers making partial
payments on child support, they either make full payments or they are in
trouble with the court. Even if they get laid off, the court and DOR
view that as arrears and chase them down just as hard as if they had
paid nothing, there is no incentive in this state for them to try and
pay what they can, the DOR and Court say pay "X" amount or we will
chase you down, embarrass you, and screw up your life so there will
be no possibility of you ever having a life. Whats to make these guys
care........going to jail?????
I hope you are able to work this out, you have the worst of both worlds
working you over right now. What we really need is:
1. Equal pay for men and women.
2. Equal parenting by men and women.
3. Equal support by both parents.
|
| 284.5 | Another HORROR story | USOPS::DOHERTY | | Mon Oct 18 1993 14:01 | 29 |
|
My boyfriend and I have been going thru this for a few years now. She
brought him back to court because she thought he was making all kinds
of money. He is a self employed painter. He made 26K and his tax
return showed that. He was paying $140.00 per week for one child and
the judge upped it to 250.00 per week. We had applied for refinancing
on our house and put he made 50k to get the loan thru. He admitted to
the judge that he put that on their to get the loan thru and that they
really went by his tax return anyway. The judge said well it seems you
adjust your income depending on the forum being addressed. So the
judge said that we are going to base your income at 40k annual + add
5k annual because the company pays for his car. Which is a 1986 with
over 100k miles that is all paid for. Now she got laid off two years
ago, has no desire to go back to work, has her boyfriend splitting
expenses with her and gets the 250.00 per week. She got to keep the
family home til the child is 18 or longer if she goes to college. She
is not supposed to have the boyfriend living there but they say prove
it. Where is the justice? This system S*CKS. He is bringing her
back to try to get it remodified. But from the sound of everything I
read in here, looks like a wasted effort of time and money. He also
has to pay his own legal and judge keeps ordering my boyfriend to pay
her legal fees also, because after all, the poor thing is a victim of
hard economic times. He is in debt with all of his family and she
could care less. She said well the judge says you can afford it.
It is so frustrating and I could go on and on about this, but I get
really upset just thinking about everything so I try not to think
about it. This is MA, in the concord court.
|
| 284.6 | a common theme in Massachusetts | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Oct 18 1993 15:09 | 46 |
| The friend with the split custody received his beatings from the
Worcester court system, from 2 different judges. But I have another
friend who had the same thing done to him in the Middlesex county
court, so it doesn't seem to make any difference.
The one common thread among these stories is that the ex-wives don't
work and don't want to, so the judge seems to give them whatever they
want so they won't apply for welfare, they make them the responsibility
of the ex-husband rather then the state, they do not ever seem to tell
them they should go to work and help support. You could understand
this if they have very small children at home, but many have kids in
their teens, and in some cases the father has custody of one or more of
the kids, no reason mom can't work and help support them. This is
where fairness with respect to womens pay enters the picture, in some
cases I'm sure they don't feel like they can get a good job, and
therefore couldn't earn enough to make it worth the effort, this is
one reason why there needs to be equity in pay for men and women. I
think this issue has more to do with the fathers getting ripped off on
child support then almost anything else.
The end result of all these family court, heavy handed, decisions, is
that sooner or later many of these fathers catch on to the fact that its
not going to get any better, and that they aren't being allowed to have
any life at all, or even to get together enough income to pay the bills
inherited from the divorce, and that a person who doesn't give a damn
whether they eat or not is now in charge of their finances and life
(their Ex wife) and that whatever she wants, the judge and DOR will see
she gets it, or he will be put in jail.
Once fathers figure this out many of them go into hopeless mode and
realize that they will never get any fairness from the court system.
It seems to take several years for them to figure it out, but
once they do, and especially if they get laid off, they will never again
allow themselves to be controlled in this manner by the ex and the
court system, most would rather go to Jail.
The court is only going to keep them in jail just so long, and then
they are going to let them out, and they can go get a job and keep
what they earn until the next time they are arrested, if they can
possibly work under the table it makes sense to do so, its the only
way they can survive and have any hope or control over their lives or
in some cases even survival. It becomes a tactic as vicious as the one
the court and DOR are playing against them, the kids and the taxpayers
are the sure losers.
"When there is no justice, anarchy results!"
|
| 284.7 | | USOPS::DOHERTY | | Mon Oct 18 1993 16:30 | 8 |
|
My boyfriend's 4 way meeting (2 lawyers, himself, the ex) - is
scheduled for 10/22 - The judge requires them to do this first. His
pre trial hearing is set for 11/4 - I'll keep you posted as to the
outcome, but it doesn't look good. His daughter is 11 years old, and
the ex could earn a decent living if she wanted to, she just does not
want to work, and with the money she gets from him, she doesn't have
to. Any advice is welcome and appreciated.
|
| 284.8 | Conference is great help! | GIAMEM::HOVEY | | Tue Oct 19 1993 12:00 | 10 |
|
In our case the ex never went back to court for modification
whenever his job status changed. He just stoppedpaying and was never
heard from again even when he assumed employment. So as far as I'm
concerned any arrears he owes are his own fault. People like this only
make the sincere non-custodials look bad. He would play games like,
"I'll be there with the money Thursday". He'd show up the next Tuesday
or later, so she got his wages garnished....like everyoe else in here I
could go on forever...
Thanks for the support and views!
|
| 284.9 | Good Luck .8 | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Tue Oct 19 1993 13:12 | 1 |
| Ref: .8 Good luck, I hope you have a positive outcome.
|
| 284.10 | Another fiasco! | GIAMEM::HOVEY | | Mon Oct 25 1993 06:37 | 14 |
|
What a day, we started at 9:00 am lining up in the courtroom to
make sure the docket was there.....guess what...no docket....now we're
on the 4th floor.....so we go to the 2nd floor where they keep all the
divorce material, the girl says " I remember sending your docket up
stairs to the courtroom". This went on for at least three trips. We
then went to the DOR and Family Services looking for the docket...we
ended up having to put a tracer on it...BTW a tracer is a note on a
secretarial pad of paper with your name and "we'll call ya". We even
went to the secretaries pool upstairs looking for the paperwork.
My wife finally got in Famiy Services at 3:45 pm, they went in
front of the Judge at 4:15 pm. What a day!
The whole process is like going into a jungle......to use the term
archaic would be kind!
|
| 284.11 | Was the outcome as anticipated? | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Oct 25 1993 07:16 | 10 |
| That seems to be the standard day in family court. From what I
understand, they lose nearly everyone's paperwork, its very frustrating
to spend an entire day running around trying to find paperwork to finally
spend 3 minutes with the judge.....if you're lucky. If you aren't lucky
the judge doesn't see you after you've spend 6 hours there. If the
judge decides to take the day off, you lose, if the court clerks screw
up the docket and you find out at 3:00 pm.....you lose, come back next
month or next week or whenever.
Was the outcome what you anticipated? Worse? Better?
|
| 284.12 | | AIMHI::RAUH | I survived the Cruel Spa | Mon Oct 25 1993 09:00 | 5 |
| And the clock is running on your attornies meter. Such fun. I think
that there should be a class action taken against the bloody court for
loosing your paperwork. And go for "Intentional Efliction of Emotional
Diress" (sp).
|
| 284.13 | A farce! | GIAMEM::HOVEY | | Mon Oct 25 1993 09:06 | 19 |
|
Family Services really doesn't offer much help, they only mediate
and I had to stay outside while the hearing took place. Even though I
insure my stepchildren, the father should per court orders, I have no
say in the matter, I wanted to be present just in case this issue came
up but noooooooooooooo stay outside you peon!
The judge is funny, he sits up front not really listening to
anybody and makes decisions based on what he thinks. The wifes EX was
ordered to continue with modified support payments, he admitted to be
working the last 6 weeks but never had to give the wife any of this money.
It was just attached to his previous arrears and she has to wait to we
get the court judgement before she gets any support payments. Very
ambiguous process, I'm sure we'll be back in court when he doesn't pay
up.
Also being a divorced Dad and being caught in the middle this
really blows, but hey, it's our tax $$$$ at work!!!
I sat and watched as they closed the coffee shop at 3:30 and
everyone started going home....they even took the clock off the wall!
|
| 284.14 | Its a rotten system | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Oct 25 1993 10:44 | 28 |
| If you could possibly work a deal with the Ex's husband, even if the
amount is less then what the court would award, you would be way ahead
of the deal.....If he agrees to the amount because he has some say in
it, and you get the DOR and Judge off his rear end for as long as he
continue's to pay the agreed amount, it might allow life to go on for
everyone involved without all this pain. The system sucks for
everyone involved with it!
As a taxpayer I protest the entire system, the fat salaries that are
paid to the people that work in the system, all the fathers who get
crusified by it, and all the children who get no support from their
parents as a result of this nightmare! I'd rather pay my tax dollars
directly to the children that need the money in the form of AFDC, and
to hell with the rest of this stuff. This sytem has been allowed to go
too far in the wrong direction.
good luck, don't let this stuff ruin your life like it does for so many
other folks. Move on with your lives the best way you can.
I'm not sure they can keep you out of the courtroom like that, does anyone
Know? She is your wife and this affects you, so you should be there if
you want to be. I think these domestic court judges take a lot of
license by trying to keep certain people out of the courtroom, I'd be
real curious to know if that is legal for them to keep you out. If you
were a law student they would let you sit in, if you were a newspaper
reporter doing a story, they would let you sit in even if they didn't
want to......so?
|
| 284.15 | Wonderful Life | GIAMEM::HOVEY | | Tue Oct 26 1993 11:58 | 15 |
|
Maybe I mislead you. I was allowed in the Courtroom....I wasn't
allowed in the Family Services mediation process......I want to see the
Court orders before rendering judgement. Insuring the stepkids is no
problem with me.....unless ordered so by the Court, then I'll have a big
problem. I've tried to work with the wife's ex. but he gave me a bunch
of BS about not working and so forth and we find out he's been working
for 6 weeks or more so my attitude has soured on the whole deal. I
offered to insure the kids, saving him 75.00 per week (court order) or
health insurance cost and I had the wife convinced that her ex's
support should be modified (lower) because of his present employment
situation.
Then we find out he's been working and he never even gave his kids a
thought, so as far as I'm concerned he can rot.
They still haven't found her docket.....:[
|
| 284.16 | I'll be trying to amend a temporary order | JUPITR::BROWER | | Thu Nov 18 1993 00:15 | 23 |
| Well I'll have another day in court soon I hope. Well maybe I
shouldn't be too hopeful. I've been paying shild support since May on
a temporary order. The support was based on a 3rd shift job or 15%
more than what I'll be making when I start a ast shift job in a few
weeks. My ex and I do talk a little bit but she won't do diddly without
her lawyers approval. So I sent her a spreadsheet highlighting the 38%
of gross she now gets and indicating what she'd get at the same
percentage when I go to first shift. Believe me it's highway robbery
and I can only hope a judge would bring it back down to 33% or so.
She's currently working part time and takes home a little over 100
bucks a week. She assures me that she has no intention of ever making
more than 15K$ a year lest she jeopordize the CS payments. A big fly in
the ointemnt is that her dad passed away several weeks ago. Boy I'm
gonna miss him he was a great guy!! She's the executor of his estate
and stands to inherit close to 50K. I'm not sure if this is considered
income or not?? Also it'd put her in a position where she could buy me
out of the house. First things first though I gotta lower the CS
commensurate with my job change.
wish me luck,
Bob
|
| 284.17 | | AIMHI::RAUH | I survived the Cruel Spa | Thu Nov 18 1993 11:12 | 8 |
| I am not sure of where the tree falls in the inhearitance (sp) areana
is. In some states, its joint marrital property and you stand to
gather half of it. In other states.....its business as usuall. But I
would find out where this falls for you. And YES, if she spends it its
income. If she puts it away in a trust for the kids, and becomes some
executor. Then she might be able to slime it out. Yes, she will pay
tax's on it. And consult your local IRS to let them know that this is
about to happen.;]
|
| 284.19 | a war of attrition | CSC32::HADDOCK | Don't Tell My Achy-Breaky Back | Mon Feb 21 1994 10:25 | 28 |
|
re mike,
About all I can recommend is to keep documenting and keep trying.
You have to make a believer out of your ex that it is going to cost
her to continue this type of behavior. That you are _not_ just
going to walk away and let her have her way.
If you don't get anything done by the court the first time, you have
to build a new case. New documentation from the last court appearance.
Then try again. It is not your problem that the judge is not available.
It is the court's problem. You have to convince the court that you are
not going to just go away either.
If you have a legitimate case you can file for _her_ to pay for your
attorney's fees. That will rattle her cage. However, make sure
you have a legitimate, well documented case, or you can end up paying
her attorney.
It will help if you learn to file your own motions in court so
that you can keep taking her back if necessary without costing
you an arm and a leg for lawyers. Sooner or later, the court is
going to get tired of having to talk to her and will smack her
with something serious enough to get her attention, or she will get
tired of paying for lawyers.
fred();
|
| 284.20 | | AIMHI::RAUH | I survived the Cruel Spa | Mon Feb 21 1994 12:19 | 11 |
| No one bullett starts a war, no one bullet will end it either. You have
to work hard, pray lots, and fight like hell. And do not be afraid to
push this to the hilts! Document, document, and document your case.
And then file a law suit for 'Intentional Iffliction of emotional
distress. Sue her for somethink like $100,000 if you are not seeing
your daughter. excuse spelling, I am on my pc at home and the
key board is not mapped like the vt's at work.
v
|