Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    John,
    Don't let a 12 year old run your life.  Look up the local Toughlove
    chapter and hit a few meetings.  They are very good, and free.
    fred();

    Would the 12 year old like to go live with her father for awhile?  That
    would certainly end most of the pain and strain of her commiserating
    with him......but it might not solve the real issue here.
    
    It seems that since your fiance took her ex to court for more support, 
    that it has really hurt him and his new family financially, and he is 
    angry about it and is telling the 12 year old just how unfair her
    mother is being to him, he is probably also telling her that her mother
    is spending the money supporting you in her apartment.....etc., etc.   
    
    Unfortunately these feelings of anger won't be likely to go away for
    many years, and are probably based purely on financial pain.  Just 
    because he pays less for two teenage girls then you do for one younger 
    child doesn't mean very much.  Those figures are based on percentages, 
    and he may earn much less salary then you, and may be trying to support 
    a second family as well.  This is one of those unfortunate things, what
    doesn't seem like much to you, probably is killing him, therefore he
    is angry and trying to influence the 12 year old.  What he is doing
    is wrong, but this won't be easily resolved.  He may also think that 
    you influenced his ex into asking for more money, and therefore he is
    angry at you as well.  
    
    In my mind any negotiated amount is better then any amount the court
    orders the father to pay....in a negotiated situation he feels he has 
    some control in the decision.  In paying by the court guidelines, he is 
    given no choice and no control at all, it really feels unfair.  The
    court does not care what his present obligations are, he is just ordered 
    to pay a lot more then he has been by the court, starting immediately.  
    The DOR swoops down on his paycheck and the rest is history, This type 
    of edict is painful to endure, and he feels it every time he gets his
    paycheck.  He may feel he has no future because of this.
     
    Sometimes, the amount of money actually causing the pain is only a few 
    dollars, and had they been able to negotiate the amount between them, 
    there would not be any feelings of anger, instead there would be 
    cooperation and support for each other with the kids.
    
    Yup, the court allows the mother to control the fathers whole financial
    life until those kids hit the legal age.  She can choose to destroy him 
    or be fair to him.  IMHO what you are witnessing is the backlash of the 
    courts decision to give the father no say in any of it, and the mother 
    allowing the court to rule instead of her own sense of fairplay to 
    negotiate for what she must have for the children using the court as a 
    backup if he refuses to negotiate fairly.  Also remember, we are talking
    children's need here, not the court granted ability to use their father 
    to raise the overall standard of living for the household.
    
    As bad as this is, try to put yourself in his shoes.  We can say he is
    wrong all day long, but it won't solve the problem.
    
    Most fathers who are paying child support by the guidelines do not have
    enough left over to barely survive on, let alone raise a second family
    even if the new wife works.  You lived with friends after your divorce,
    so maybe you didn't experience the same financial pain he is feeling,
    and therefore can't see where he is coming from.
    
    Is there any chance of her talking to him about his behavior and
    finding out what is really bothering him?  Then working on the real
    problem rather then letting his behavior destroy your new family also?
    This may be a case of a few dollars a week causing a war that will hurt
    both families in the long run.
    
    Good luck, this issue is very difficult to work from both sides of the 
    fence.
    

   Hi John,

   I have many thoughts on this subject.  Here are a few of them for you to
   think about.

   Super-brief history:
   I have two children, Mark, 11, and Julia, 9, from my first marriage. 
   Until last January, I was the NCP, and my kids visited me every other
   weekend, plus half the summer.  Last January, Mark moved in with my new
   husband and I.  My husband and I took informal vows this past May (we've
   been living together for over two years) and we will take our formal vows
   next July.  My husband has two sons from his first marriage, Gilbert, 22,
   and Aaron, 19.  Aaron has recently moved in with us as well.  Our present
   living situation is that Aaron lives with us full time and goes to the
   local university.  Mark lives with us full time and joins his sister at
   his father's house every other weekend.  On the other weekends, Julia
   comes to my house.

   Believe it or not, the twelve year old is asking, no, demanding
   boundaries.  Any change to the adults' relationships in her life is
   threatening, most particularly the ones she is living with. 

   Because of the long ongoing situation between myself and my ex, (I won't
   go into details here), Mark is extremely demanding of set boundaries. 
   WHEN there are boundaries at his father's house, and I'll double stress
   the "WHEN", they are very confusing, and inconsistent.  His father always
   makes threats he can't possibly keep (e.g.,"There'll be no more
   visitation to me (his father) if you don't start behaving properly"
   (where properly is completely undefined -- you're just supposed to know
   it), "I'll never speak to you again", etc.)  When I had to start four
   years ago, was to establish a set of rules, penalties for breaking the
   rules, rewards for keeping the rules, AND to stick by them.  At that
   time, neither of my kids were living with me, they were just visiting,
   and I had to draw a very sharp line -- if you want to be here at my
   house, you will have to abide by these rules, or suffer the penalties,
   PERIOD.

   Swinging back to the present, now Mark is living with me, and I've had to
   adjust the rules over the years to fit the changing situations.  I've had
   to make it very clear to him that if he wants to continue living with me,
   he will abide by the rules I have set for my house.  In the beginning, I
   thought this was really harsh, and it was tough for me, but it really
   pays off.

   There are other issues here.  For a while, Greg, my husband, maintained a
   stance very similar to yours -- he would keep out of whatever situation
   arose between my children and I.  And, for that time, that is what I
   wanted.  As time went on, I decided I wanted him to be more involved, but
   a) I didn't know how to go about forging this new aspect of our
   relationship -- it requires a lot of teamwork and just plain hard work,
   and b) I was afraid of how he would respond to my children and they to
   him.  There's much more I can say here, and I can, if you like, but my
   main point of this paragraph is this:  You are not just a bystander.  You
   are involved, even if you are not actively doing or saying anything. 
   Whatever happens between your SO and her children affects you, affects
   your relationship with her, and your relationship with them.  In a way,
   the twelve year old is asking for clarification of three relationships --
   yours with her mother, yours with her, and her relationship with her
   mother now that you have a relationship with her mother.

   The last thing I wanted to mention (sorry this is so long) is that I have
   a really tough time when I see things from my children, and my son in
   particular, that are just like his father.  It seems that all the crap I
   did not want to deal with with my ex-husband I now have to deal with with
   my son.  The huge difference is that Mark is a child, he is my son, and I
   have a say about what behavior I consider acceptable and what behavior I
   don't consider acceptable.  I will not tolerate any kind of abuse from
   him.  I've had to make this very clear not only by what I say in response
   to his actions, but my actions in return.  I've also made it clear that I
   love Mark, and I separate his behaviors from him. 

   I could write lots about this.  Feel free to respond here or to contact
   me by email or phone.  I'm at DTN 522-2733.

   			Good luck and take care,
   						Terza

RE: .2,

>    Would the 12 year old like to go live with her father for awhile?  That
>    would certainly end most of the pain and strain of her commiserating
>    with him......but it might not solve the real issue here.
>
That's a good question, but the child has indicated NO, yet continues almost
daily contact with her father. One thing I should add, on one occasion I
couldn't help over hear a conversation between her and the father. I got the 
impression they are feeding each other real bull. She told him some pretty
twisted truths. SO I guess they are working on each other so to speak.
   
>    is wrong, but this won't be easily resolved.  He may also think that 
>    you influenced his ex into asking for more money, and therefore he is
>    angry at you as well.  
>
This all happened long before I even knew her, but yes, from what I have been
told, I would say the EX is angry about having to pay up more. I also get the
feeling from her past that he has made it difficult anytime someone has come
into her life, why, your guess is good as mine, but it not because he is
concerned about the children.
    
>    In my mind any negotiated amount is better then any amount the court
>    orders the father to pay....in a negotiated situation he feels he has 
>    some control in the decision.  In paying by the court guidelines, he is 
>
True...but this was tried and failed, hence why the court ordered the amount
awarded. For 6 years this man paid nothing to support his children, it wasn't
until the government change the rules that he had no choice. He didn't pay
because he couldn't, he just didn't want too (a true dead beat dad).
    
>    As bad as this is, try to put yourself in his shoes.  We can say he is
>    wrong all day long, but it won't solve the problem.
>
I am in his shoes first hand, I'm the NCP of my own child, and pay my dues,
the only difference is I don't twist my son's mind or make the EX's life
difficult. I don't necessarily think my situation is fair either (another
story and half), but accept it as one of life's obligations. I don't make
everyone's life difficult because I feel I was taken for a ride by the EX.
    
>    Is there any chance of her talking to him about his behavior and
>    finding out what is really bothering him?  Then working on the real
>    problem rather then letting his behavior destroy your new family also?
>
This has been attempted...nothing constructive came of it other than my SO
getting plenty of verbal abuse from him.


Thanks for the note, good questions and thoughts.....

John

    In that case, keep your minds open in case there ever is an opportunity
    to work the issue with the father, for a more satisfactory arrangement, 
    but if not and he is truly a dead beat, then take heart, you have the 
    best combination of blended kids, IMHO girls tend to blend better with 
    their mothers new spouse then with their fathers new spouse, and boys 
    tend to blend better with their fathers new spouse then with their 
    mothers new spouse.  At least thats what i've observed.  The girls seem
    to feel loyalty toward their mothers somewhat more, while the boys seem 
    to feel it toward their dads more.
    
    .3's advice is very good, the more you can get involved as a family
    with the adjustment of all the kids, the easier it will be.  The 12
    year old should settle down somewhat as she adjusts to this new
    situation, but she is at an age where she is probably starting to
    rebel against her mother anyway, and this just gives her more
    opportunity to do so.....which she is relishing, she is also at an age
    where dad is important to her, and if she is getting his attention this
    way, it may be very appealing for a while, she may even decide she
    wants to go live with him for a while, but her mother and you will have
    to decide if you want that to happen or not under the circumstances.
    
    Just keep working at this, try different things, do the best you can
    and don't let any of the kids destroy your relationship with each
    other, the kids will one day grow up and leave home, and when they do
    you will still have each other.....the years pass quickly.
     

Re: .3, .5,

As pointed out in .5, yes .3 was good advice, but since my last note, I've
also talked to a counselor today. I got out of it a few things which supports
much of what has been written here also.

1) The mother must deal with the problem and understand why the 12 year old
is directing so much anger towards her. Find out what is the real root of the 
problem, it may not be the EX, though he could be fueling the problem.

2) I'm best to stand back and not get involved, unless asked to do so and only
if by doing so will not make things worst.

3) Since the 12 year old is not willing to go to counseling, my SO and I can
attend counseling together, this is to handle the 12 year problem indirectly.

4) Must have a clear set of house rules to establish clearly what is
acceptable behavior, chores and what is not acceptable behavior.

Anyway, time will be required to solved, but advice and experiences of others,
always helps things look better.

John

Well....almost a year has gone by and I guess the dust has settled for the 
most part. Though things are not what I would like them to be, but at least 
there is peace.

Since my last note, we have moved out of the apartment and into a house 
giving all a bit more personal space. This was at the cost of postponement of 
the wedding from this past July to this coming new years eve.

The girls have come to realise their father is a lot of talk and nothing 
else, effectively has shot his own foot a number of times. He promises them 
this and that, but never delivers and continues to avoid paying his child 
support. My SO had to go to court again to get yet another order get him to 
do so. The judge has been monitoring the situation for the past 4 months to 
ensure he keeps his obligation to his kids. The girls have also come to 
understand the problems their mother has endured over the years to support 
them. My SO and her EX must appear again before the judge shortly for another 
follow-up appearance to check his compliance to the court order.

Though the youngest, now 13, has never really accepted me as part of the 
household, the conflict has subsided with her mother. Basically, the 13 year 
old has resorted to the quiet treatment and says nothing unless I happen to 
say something to her. Though this doesn't sound great, this is a 100% 
improvment over what existed before. But we have peace.....

The oldest, now 18, we continue to have a normal relationship in the 
household. My son now 9 has adjusted well even though he is with me every 
second weekend. The only thing he has had to deal with is getting the silent 
treatment from the 13 year old, but understands the situation.

So life goes on....more work yet to be done.....

Oddly enough, with a new years' eve wedding coming up, the 13 year old has 
taken an interest in the wedding plans. Do I see a light at the end of the 
tunnel?

John

    Thanks for the update, John.  Best of luck to all.
    fred();