Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

     
    About the only thing that I know of that can be modified after the
    "Final Decree" is
    
    Child support /easy
    Alimony       /easy
    
    Visitation    /easy
    Custody       /difficult
    
    Financial     /only if shomething turns up that wasn't known at the
                   time of the Final Decree or if it is found that one
                   party intentionally misled the court.

    
    What if the non-custodial parent isn't working ? It's a long story.
    
    thanks,

    Why not explain some and see what comes out of it. Do your best to tell
    us as much with out the real down and dirty details.

    re .2

>    What if the non-custodial parent isn't working ? It's a long story.

    This is why I think every NCP should know how to file papers for 
    a change in child support themselves.  When you are laid off, you
    don't have the money, but the meter keeps running, and they will
    come collect later if there is no court order for change.  Nor do
    most people who are laid off have the money to hire a lawyer to
    file the papers.  If they are following the "guidelines" set by 
    the state, and you can document your unemployment and current income,
    then they _should_ give you a change.  However, I have also seen a lot
    of judges at will not give you a change and just let the meter run.

    fred();

    
    	Fred, does the ex have any say in the matter of a modification or
    is it an decision made strictly by a judge and the person requesting
    the change?
    
    thanks,

    He must file a motion for modification with the proper court.
    
    It is a decision made strictly by the judge.  However, the ex must be
    subpoenaed into court and the summons delivered by a constable, and she 
    gets to insert her two cents worth in front of the judge.
    
    Also beware, as Fred said, many judges are not granting the motions and
    are allowing the clock to run, after the clock has run for 6 months the
    DOR (Department of Revenue) will come after the delinquent party,
    including grabbing bank accounts, checking accounts, etc., they will
    even put a lien against any company pension plans.
    
    If your friend was a Digital person and got/is getting packaged there are 
    lots of things he should know up front before he tries to file the motion,
    in fact the sooner he knows these things the better, and this applies
    to other companies which offered cash severance:
    
    1. The judge will expect him to continue to pay his ex the full weekly
       amount until he has used up all the weeks of the package, including
       vacation.
    2. He will then have to go back to court and the judge will change the 
       support order and take up to half or more of his unemployment benefits 
       for as many weeks as he continues to receive it, including any 
       extensions that are allowed. The DOR will grab the unemployment up
       front before he gets his checks.
    3. The judge can and will order him to get Medical coverage for the
       kids under the unemployment program, or pay out of his pocket unless
       the original order said insurance only if his employer provides it.  
    
    Many judges seem to assume that the person (guy) is trying to default
    intentionally from his court ordered obligations.
    Some judges seem to have trouble understanding the concept of someone
    getting layed off.......but then we know they aren't in any way connected
    to reality, so no surprise here.
    
    I guess once the unemployment runs out, the guy either goes on
    welfare, which exempts him from child Support...as long as he remains
    on it, or else the judge will just set the child support at some
    arbitrary amount and tell him to pay it regardless of his means or
    income......The judges are not sympathetic to the guys plight, and if
    they know he has a second wife that works, they will just assume
    they can get the money out of him by continuing the harrassment and
    threat of jail, and in some cases actual jailing of the person.
    
    Once unemployment runs out, each judge takes a different course of
    action, but the bottom line is to harrass the guy until he finds a job,
    and then immediately set the child support as high as possible under
    the state guidelines.  They may order him to appear in court each week
    with the names of employers he has applied at, they can and do lots of
    different things, but harrassment seems to come high on their list in
    some of the courts.  Judges also frequently threaten the jobless
    fathers with contempt and jail....more harrassment!
    
    I'm sure there are better stores about some judges, I just haven't heard
    about any of them!
    
    -cheers                               
    
    

    In response to the base noters question:
    
    >>>How does "modification" work ? What are the ground rules and
    >>>processes ?  (In Mass?)
    
    The courthouse has copies of the correct forms that must be filed for
    modification.  There is a legal library in most court houses that is
    open to anyone who wishes to do research on these matters, and books
    are in the library that tell you what the correct courtroom procedure
    is for filing the various motions.  the courtroom procedures are
    interlaced and tricky, Pro se litigants must be on their toes, I would
    almost go as far as to recommend that your friend (if possible) work an
    arrangement with an attorney for by the hour advice and question
    answering sessions, this way he can set up an hours appointment, go in
    with a list of questions and get all his answers for just the hourly
    rate, this is a good informal relationship with an attorney if someone
    is trying to do this by themselves.  He can also get copies of various
    types of forms from the attorney to use as examples if necessary, so he 
    can understand exactly what needs to be included in the motions.  In
    this way he gets advice, but controls the expenditure of money to the
    attorney very closely.  It also allows him to make his own trade offs
    and decisions armed with good information.  Most divorce attorneys are
    quite happy to work under this arrangement, its gravy for them.
    
    From watching pro se friends, the worst kind of advice to get is from
    the clerks at the courthouse, they are often wrong and can cost you
    months of time and annoyance, not to mention money.  It is also not
    their job to give you advice, and with good reason, they all have a
    different answer, and often none have the correct answer.
    
    The Judges I've heard of so far do not have any patience or kindness
    toward Pro se litigants, in fact they seem to be especially heavy
    handed toward them in denying their motions and not divulging why they
    denied it......makes it kind of hard to refile when you don't know what
    procedure you violated the previous time through.  If his wife has an
    attorney, he better have one in the wings also, not following correct
    procedure can really cost him. 
    
    Hope this helps.

    Sometimes they are heavy handed with you if your pro-se. Sometimes they
    will work with you. Depends upon what your trying to do and how you
    present yourself. As they say, presentation is 1000% of it all. Do your
    homework, figure out both pro and con of whats the best that can happen
    and whats the worst. You might find its best not to use an attorney.
    The times you want to use one is when your facing a heavy rap like
    murder, rape, or robbery. Then you hire an attorney.
    
    

    >    From watching pro se friends, the worst kind of advice to get is from
>    the clerks at the courthouse, they are often wrong and can cost you
>    months of time and annoyance, not to mention money.  It is also not
>    their job to give you advice, and with good reason, they all have a
>    different answer, and often none have the correct answer.

    It is not their job to give advice as to law, but it _is_ their 
    job to give _instruction_ on the proper forms and procedure of
    filing.  You will, however, look up the laws to reference that
    back your request.  That will require the legal library.  You
    can usually find a set of law books in the reference section of
    the public or university library.

>    From watching pro se friends, the worst kind of advice to get is from
>    the clerks at the courthouse, they are often wrong and can cost you
>    months of time and annoyance, not to mention money.  It is also not
>    their job to give you advice, and with good reason, they all have a
>    different answer, and often none have the correct answer.

    Judges are bound by ethics and by Supreme Court, and usually by law
    to tell you what you did wrong as far as filing the paper, AND to
    give you a chance to correct any deficiencies.  They are also bound 
    by ethics to treat those in their court room with decency and respect. 
    If they don't you can file a complaint against them with the 
    disciplinary authorities.
    
    However,  DO YOUR HOMEWORK,  there _are_ a lot of landmines you 
    can step on if you don't.  

     >From watching pro se friends, the worst kind of advice to get is from
    >the clerks at the courthouse, they are often wrong and can cost you
    > months of time and annoyance, not to mention money.  It is also not
    > their job to give you advice, and with good reason, they all have a
    >different answer, and often none have the correct answer.
    
     The advice I am referring to is procedural in nature, many clerks don't 
    seem to know the process, and can really mess you up, cost you months in
    time and money because the clock keeps running until you make it before
    the judge having filed the correct paperwork.  When the clerks don't even
    know the process and correct forms, it would be crazy to think anyone
    would even think of asking them questions about law!  
    
    >Judges are bound by ethics and by Supreme Court, and usually by law
    >to tell you what you did wrong as far as filing the paper, AND to
    >give you a chance to correct any deficiencies.  They are also bound
    >by ethics to treat those in their court room with decency and respect.
    >If they don't you can file a complaint against them with the
    >disciplinary authorities.
    
    This may be true, but in the case of Massachusetts in general, and
    Worcester court in particuliar the judges are biased, know how to
    play the system against the father, and do so on a routine basis.  They
    also know exactly how to play the game. I would not have believed what
    is going on in that court system If I hadn't witnessed it for myself.
    It is absolutely unethical.  No ethics were involved in what I saw!  And
    they don't feel like they have to furnish any reasons for denial of a
    motion!  They also provide no insight as to how they arrive at their
    decisions.   The Pro Se litigant is most often in guess mode.
    
    Based on what I saw in the worcester court system, I'd say the judges in
    that particuliar county need to be thoroughly shaken up.  But I somehow 
    doubt anyone will shake them up right away.  This like so many other things 
    doesn't seem to be something that the average person can do much about
    unless they are willing to get real radical and call a lot of media 
    attention to the problem.  Or maybe put ads in the paper and try
    to find other people who feel they have been treated unethically, and
    form a group to file complaints, these are the only way to deal with
    this kind of problem.
    
    Remember that appeals and complaints can take forever.  And those
    are the means allowed to dispute a decision, or behavior on the part of
    a judge.  Judges know what means you have at your disposal to contest
    what they do.......They also know how to play the game, they do it for a
    living!  I'd sure like to know what they are measured on, but I bet I
    can guess.
    
    I will acknowledge that each case is different, so the results are never 
    alike, and the way in which the judge handles a case may be slightly 
    different from one to the next.  I could assume that the people I've
    seen going through this are bad people doing very wrong things, but I
    know that isn't the case, they are average people trapped in an
    unethical system.  

    I believe I might have a problem please need some good answers or
    advice. I will be going to court tomorrow.
    
    	1 - In june I been having some maritial problems stress,and of
    course the job. I told my x-wife to temporary to take care of them until
    I can 
    straighten these problems. She had them for 1.5 month. I told her I
    would like to pick them and return the way it was ,but she said noway.
    Now I am not a unfit
    father. My divorce degree says that I have my kids every other week.
    I have share custody (phiycal). What can I expect in court.(mass.court)
    She going for full custody and modificaton. 
    
    
    rgds, jim

    Jim,
    
    1. Upon what grounds does she feel your an unfit father? Have her list
    this on paper. 
    
    2. If your being denied visitation, file a motion of contempt against
    her. And sue her for Intentional Efliction of Emotional Direst. 
    
    

    re without knowing the laws of Mass. and some feel for the court system
    there, it is a tough one to call.  The point that I'd try to make would
    be, "Yes I went throught some tough times, but I STRAIGHTENED THEM OUT.
    Although my feelings at the time wre to the contrary, I tried to remove 
    the children from bein effected by the situation as much as I could.  
    It was not my intend to _dump_ the children, but to remove them from the 
    problems that were going on.  However, _NOW_ I feel that I _HAVE_  taken 
    care of those problems.  I do not feel that my parental rights should be 
    removed just because I went throught some tough times.  If every parent 
    who went through some tough times had their parental rights removed, 
    there would be no more parents.  The children were not endangered in any 
    way by my actions.  In fact I personally feel that what I demonstrated
    better parental judgment by seeing that the chidren's needs were met
    in spite of my own feelings to keep them with me at the time".
    
    My feeling is that judges are usually more reluctant to change custody
    orders than they are to change visition or support orders.
    
    
    As they say, hope this helps
    fred();