Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    He can go into court and ask for unsupervised visitation in any case.
    However, if he does that, the reverse will probably happen--he'll
    get hit for child support.  
    
    The courts will tell  you that visitation and child support are
    separate issues.  However, asking for child support will increase the
    likelihood of him asking for visitation. Just as the opposite is oftern
    true.  NCP asks for visitation orders to ben enforced, and gets hit for
    request for more child support.
    
    If he does ask for visitation, then it will be up to the CP to show
    that the child would be in _danger_ if the supervision is unsupervised. 
    Not having any "parenting" training does not necessarily place the
    child in danger, and the CP had better be able to back the alcoholism
    accusation up with some evidence.

    fred()

    
    Fred,
    
    The problem is how to prove alcoholism?  He's never been introuble with
    the police for it due to his job and knowing all of them.  Not just
    that but he lives very close to the bar and walks alot of the times.  
    This is where the safety of the baby comes in, him driving with her in
    the car.  If he doesn't go to a bar and drink he sits at home and
    drinks.  
    From what she's been told so far that when you go to court for support
    they automatically do the visitations.  I guess the paperwork that
    needs to be filled out is for support and paternity.  OR, do they just
    make it simple and say open visitations and leave it at that?  I know
    for a fact that he has no desire in taking this baby but the chance is
    always still there.  He would not intentionally harm the baby but
    drinking all the time does not keep you in your right state of mind.
    She does need the money to help support the child but is it worth it
    for her if he gets unsupervisoed vistations and he actually takes her.
    My guess is he won't but who's to say.  For the past year he sees her
    once a week for 45mins..
    
    thanks
    

    Some people, alcoholics too, can learn new tricks. Including fostering
    and nuturing a child. There are alcoholic women who have custody. No
    one gives a dam about them. And so long as they can provide a home, the
    courts seem to go along with it. Why is your friend being like this? To
    foster alienation of child and father? Sounds alittle one sided. A
    woman who is pure as the driven snow fostering a child with the demon
    alcoholic father and now is not going to see child? 

    
    Believe me it's not one-sided she's just trying to look out for the
    child.  She has no problem with him seeing the baby at all.  He's
    welcome at her house anytime.  Not to get real cruel here or anything
    but when he does see her he doesn't play, hold, hug, kiss or anything
    with her.  Once in awhile he'll pick her up but that's it, not even
    a hello to her.  His mother is 72 yrs. old and he has already stated
    that he doesn't want to hurt her in which she wants him to have
    something to do with the baby.  He used to show up at her bedtime so he 
    didn't have to stay but his mother talked to him so now he'll
    show up earlier.  If he showed interest that would make the situation
    better but he doesn't.  Believe me, she's not trying to cut out the
    father at all and has all intentions on letting this child know the
    truth.  Anotherwords, she doesn't plan on depriving the child of
    knowing her family.  Maybe this will help to understand the situation
    better to, he totally refused to have anything to do with this in the
    beginning.  It was all a secret and a secret to his mother to.  If
    people had mentioned to him about him going to be a father he'd deny
    it.  When the baby was born he thru out alot of accusations to make her
    look bad and refused to sign the birth certificate.  To this day he has
    not signed it but does help somewhat with child support.  Unfortunately
    it's not enough. She did wish it wasn't going to be this way but he's
    refusing to help out on things that are desperately needed that she can't
    afford.  She's tried to do it herself for the past year but it's
    finally caught up.  
     

    Sounds like both of them need to grow up a bit.  I question whether
    she is really worried about the child's safety, or if she is just
    worried about losing total control.  Bottom line is unless she
    can show some pretty good _evidence_ that the child will be neglected
    or in danger during unsupervised visitation, the court will likely
    order unsupervised visitation.  The courts are unlikely to take
    action and limit the fathers access based only on what she _thinks_
    _might_ happen.

    fred();

    She could first try to negotiate an agreeable amount of weekly child 
    support with the father, an amount that pays his share but doesn't
    cripple him financially.  The reason for this is because it makes it
    more pleasant for everyone, especially the child, if the agreement is
    negotiated between the parents, and the father pays willingly.  
    
    The agreement should include visitation for him (or his mother) if thats 
    what he wants, if he doesn't want to visit there isn't much she can do
    about it.  If he is willing to take this much responsibility, and 
    understands that it is not something he can take lightly or just forget 
    to send the check because he feels like it, then this is the best way to 
    handle this.  The negotiated agreement should be put in writing and
    have the court rubber stamp it. 
    
    If he will not agree to be responsible, and doesn't wish to pay his
    just and fair part of the support in a consistent weekly fashion, and
    either doesn't think he owes anything, or else will only agree to such a
    small amount that it won't help, then she can go to the DOR and discuss 
    her childs rights to paternal support with them. (DOR = Department of 
    Revenue).  They will tell her how to proceed....
    
    The court can order paternity testing if necessary, which will eliminate 
    his arguement that it isn't his child.  Based on the outcome of the
    paternity test, the court will also order him to pay a very large portion 
    of his weekly paycheck for child support.  I'm sure it will be a much 
    larger portion then if he and she can come to a mutual agreement that is 
    comfortable for both of them.  The DOR will have the child support
    amount deducted from his check by his employer automatically each week,
    and he will have just about no say in the matter if he causes her to take 
    this course of action. (It would be very stupid of him to make her go
    to the DOR/court with this if her request is reasonable).
    
    Your friend should really make an effort to discuss this with him and
    work it out in an amicable way.  This would absolutely be best for all
    three of them for the next 18 years!  Keep the courts out of it as much
    as possible...... As far as visitation, she should use common sense,
    try to keep the father involved with the child if possible, try not to
    make it necessary for the court to become involved in the visitation
    issue.  As the child gets older the father may wish to be more involved, 
    or maybe not, but he should have the option, at least to the extent that
    he learns to care for the child and protect it, and doesn't place it in
    jeopardy because of excessive drinking.  Maybe the visitation could be
    set up at his mothers house and she could be responsible for the child
    for one day a week or so, or another relative if he is agreeable?
    
    Assuming she's not fair minded and thinks its easier to go to the
    DOR/court and have them put the father in a vise grip, she should keep
    in mind the fact that he can still cause her a lot of pain by quitting
    his jobs frequently so the DOR can't grab the child support, or move
    around the country constantly, or leave the country.  Or,  he could
    start working her over about visitation rights and make her prove that
    the child is in jeopardy when with him.  This is why an honestly 
    negotiated settlement is the best for all concerned, it allows both of
    them to remain in control of the situation.
    
    Good luck,
    BB

    
    
    Whelp, my friend did sit down and talk to the father and had everything
    in writing on what it costs her a week to raise the baby, he would not
    agree to give anymore money and cried povety.  She's done what she can
    for the past year not to bring him to court cuz she's not looking to
    really stick it to him but does want what's right for the child.  He
    makes over double her pay and won't even split the bill even.  She's
    also always had it open to where he's welcome to visit with the child
    anytime he pleases in which he chooses not to except for the one day he
    brings money by.....that's once a week for 45 mins..  As for his
    mother, my friend had never met her before and his mother begged him to
    please bring the baby over which he didn't.  Well, after 6 weeks of her
    asking him, my friend took the baby and went over and introduced herself 
    and the baby to her and still to this day takes the baby over to visit.  
    
    
    Believe me, this friend is not the type to wanna nail people and would
    never do anything for this child not to know her family but the father
    refuses to do his part or should I say his fair share.  She's still 
    uncertain on what to do and will give him about another week to see if
    he can come around.
    
    

Your friend needs to KNOW what she is entitled to.   Note 197.1 gives the
guidelines for support in Massachusetts.
				(NCPS - (CPS-15000-daycare))
	Support = NCPS * .27 *	----------------------------
				(NCPS + (CPS-15000-daycare))
Where	NCPS is fathers salary
	CPS is mothers salary
	daycare is daycare expense so Mom can work
	.27 assumes father NCPS > 25,000.   If less use .25

Remembering you said he makes twice her salary a few quick values:
	CPS	NCPS	daycare	Support
	15k	30k	0	8100/year	155/wk
	20k	40k	0	8400/year	161/wk
	25k	50k	0	9000/year	173/wk

Assuming your friend lives in Massachusetts, she should figure what she is
entitled to.   If he is already giving her about that amount, maybe she
should leave it alone.   If she is getting a lot less, it should be
straight forward to get the new number.   Get a lawyer.  If she can't afford
a lawyer, I think there are legal aid agencies that might help.

Please note that how much it costs the custodial parent to support the child
DOESN'T enter the formula.   If your friend is super frugal and only buys
day old bread and second hand clothing, or if your friend is extravagent
and only buys the kids clothing at Nieman Marcus it DOESN'T matter.
The judge is only supposed to deviate by a small amount.

In my experience, trying to be nice to the other parent in the hopes they
will do what you want doesn't work.   I think they teach this in AA.

For tax purposes if your friend provides more than half the support, she
is clearly entitled to claim the exemption.  And remember support includes
some fraction of her rent, heat, etc.

Hope this helps