Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

       I was divorced in NH and my ex moved out of state.  My
       understanding (I checked with several lawyers) is that before
       another state can have jurisdiction, NH must give it up.  So it
       sounds like you're doing the right thing by arguing that point
       first.

       Good Luck,
       Richard

    Under the URISA (sp) program, I thought it just didn't matter. She
    could be on the dark side of the moon and could collect from .0's 
    sorry back side. Welp. Not the first time I am wrong. 
    
    Chances are great that she will win on this. But remember, its the
    fight in the dog not the size of the dog that makes the winners from
    the loosers. Good Luck!

    Jeff,

    A couple of points.

    "Child Support" is figured based on a percentage of your income and
    her income.  If she _quit_ her job, then her income should be figured
    on her _potential_ earnings, but if she was laid off, then they will
    likely recognize her lower income.  Given the condition of the court
    system, they may give her the reduction anyway.  

    If "child support" was figured on the set schedule, they may well have
    figured in child-care as part of the expense.  If they have, then 
    you my be entitled to a reduction in support payments.

    If she and her husband are renting the other part of the home, then
    that income (or at least part of it) belongs to her.  Also, in most
    states, "gifts, etc, that significantly reduce her living expense"
    are considered income.  ie. If her new husband is paying the rent
    and most of the expenses, I'd argue that that was a gift that 
    significantly reduced her living expense.

    fred();

    Jeff,

    One more sadden thought about what Fred has pointed out. It is all an
    interpretation of what the judge, marital master, or what ever
    interprets it to be. Hence, you can defend your posture if you fight
    like hell for it. And remember, Never to step into the judges chambers
    without a court recorder. And Never let your attorney step into the
    chambers without you. IF the attorney does go for a step in. FIRE
    HIM/HER ON THE SPOT! AND GET ANOTHER! This will set the tempo that your
    civil rights have/are being violated and that you have rights despite
    the imperial courts attitude. 
    
    How do you fire an attorney on the spot? Simple! AS they are moving
    towards the chambers under the judges request. You say that you object
    to this. And if they still keep moving. You say to the attorney. YOUR
    FIRED! And if they still have a confernce and write a decree upon it.
    Then you can up the anti an have all three removed from their jobs!

    re .6

>    Thanks for the responses. Couple of questions: Why to judges ask
>    attorneys into their chambers and what it typically accomplished there?

    Usually the "deals" are made in the judges chambers.  Don't let your
    lawyer make any "deals" without your knowledge or ok.  If he makes 
    one without your ok, protest.

    fred();

    �Why to judges ask attorneys into their chambers and what it 
    �typically accomplished there?
    
    "Step into my chambers!", said the spider to the fly.
    
    Not only are deals made there that might not be to what is your
    constutional rights. Once the court recorder stops, so does any chance
    of apealling your cause if all parites strike a deal and it is not a
    Fair and Just reason for it. Case in point:
    
    A man who was paying for his attorney, her attorney, and the childrens
    attorney had all four plus his ex step into the chambers. HE WAS
    REFUSED, yes, refused to enter to listen to what kind of deal was going
    down. This man now lives in a car. Get the picture. 

Have you heard the latest?!

The Department of Revenue here in Mass. has presented a bill to have Child 
Support automatically taken from your pay check,and and with automatic 
increases every two years!

As it is now I have a major battle with the DOR and it's ineptness in 
accounting and collection.

Not only have I been totally Fu*** by our wonderful legal system, but now the 
DOR is chasing me for arrears???

An audit on my Account shows I've overpaid by $1,100.00.

Cal

    There have been numerous bills proposed over the past few years and
    nothing has happened yet. As of 1993 all new support orders are
    automatically administered by the DOR through wage garnishment. 
    Where did you here of the automatic bi-yearly review?
    

    There is was a bill here that would attach the grandparents of children
    on AFDC and social aid! Imagine that! Your son or daughter driving you
    to bankruptcy because of their inability to do what ever it takes to
    hold a job or keep a marriage together. So, there are stranger thoughts
    in other lands. :) This is to keep expenses down of social services for
    they were stuffed down the throats of the states because the federal
    gocerment, who started these programs of the 60's wants relieve for
    they have spent themselves into a debt that would make anyones head
    spin!

I read this in the Middlesex News the other day.  It caught my eye because of 
the DOR!

I'll see if I can find the article.

Cal

    Wish the Infernal Revenue could auto visitations as they can auto wadge
    attachment. 

And another chapter to "child Support".

After the last episode where my ex wife took me to court on a dummy contempt 
charge and then let me know my son was going to college, I figured my support 
was ended.

It's unbelieveable what the courts and DOR do! To make a very long story 
short.  My support ended in Aug 92.  The judge decided that I should honor my 
College payments by a weekly deduction to the DOR.

They issues a order.. contempt, arrearage(Wrong), payment of college tuition 
by weekly payroll deduction.   

This was done in October.  Since November I have been to all levels of the 
DOR, Governers office, Both Houses and finally I had to go back and have the 
judge reword this order.

Course there was a levy on my bank acount, all checks I had written 
bounced..10.  The DCU was very helpful and didn't charge me a fee, but the 
businesses DID.

So I get to spend the whole day in court, because the judge was too busy at 
the moment to re write the order, and he has the nerve to say "I'm not taking 
the responsibility for this mistake!"

So how do I get a little satisfaction?  Go to the ACLU?

Cal

    It can be challenged. DCYS in New Hampshire tried that stunt with a
    local NCP. Long of the short, DOR and DCYS, its not their business to
    collect money for college funds. And it is unlawful for them to do
    such. Get an attorney and fight it or find the fathers group on the
    Cape and join em fast! 
    
    The man in NH had left a trust for is daughter of $60,000. The ex spent
    it and when it was gone went after the NCP dad. And at the time he was
    unemployed due to this great recession. Anyhow, they wanted to
    incarserate his butt for contempt of court orders of paying college
    funds. Welp..:) He fought it and won. His daughter who is $60,000
    lighter for college is the one who is hurting. But thats life, many of
    us have to go to night school to get where we are. And its not the
    NCP's responsibility for the recless acts of the CP. 
    
    
    Next!

    re .14
    
    If what George says is true.  You may be able to slap a lawsuit on
    DOR (and maybe the judge) in Federal court for unlawful prosecution.  
    I have a name and address of someone who can help you proeceed pro-se 
    (as your own lawyer) if you can't get ACLU to take the case.  I think
    that this b.s. is only going to stop when these people get nailed in
    court themselves.
    
    fred();
    

Fred,

I have a call into the ACLU in Worcester MA.  I am going to do everything 
possible to finally put this to bed!

If you have any information that I might use could you send it to me at 

IAMOK::CALCAGNI

In the meantime I'll keep everyone posted to the latest.

Cal

    Re: .14
    
    I stopped fooling around going to courts with my hat in my hand.  I
    hired a Constitutional Consultant named Nat Denman.  When I hired him,
    My ex had moved 2,000 miles away and was denying visitation even when I
    told her I would go out of my way to go through North Dakota on my way
    moving from California to New Hampshire.  I was paying alimony and
    child support as well.
    
    Today, I have custody and the alimony got stopped because she
    remarried.  
    
    I sent $20 to Nathaniel Denman, PO Box 689, Falmouth, MA back in
    1981.  I think the price is $22.50 now.  It's the best $20 I ever
    spent. 
    
                                        Kurt
    
    BTW -- Did your child support order have an explicit stop date, a stop
           date based on age, or a stop date based on the law?  It could
           make a big difference.

My Child Support officially ended Aug 92.  The DOR even issued the stop.

As i explained my ex wife brought me into court on a fake Contempt charge. 
She said I owed College tuition from 3 years ago?!  The Family Services 
person told her that this wouldn't wash!  Now why wasn't this done before I 
went to court.

So during the court session she springs that I now owe for half my sons 
college tuition as he is planning on attending that fall.  Well isn't that 
nice, I never knew he was attending school.

I later called the school and found that the costs were quite a bit less then 
she had, and he was going to receive a Stafford Loan.  I appealed and went 
back to court.

The judge yells at me asking why I didn't have the information in the first 
place!  And refused to rewite the order..  

The order said Contempt, Arrearage of $6000.00 half of College Tuition, to be 
paid by continuing weekly support payments..  Bingo here comes the DOR!

No arrearage, No Contempt, Not Child Support!  

Now I fully support Child Support as well as doing if necessary.  My ex is 
very well off, I left her everything, house, furniture, no bills and she 
robbed my funds.

She's remarried and has a hefty pension now from GM fo an injury she received 
while working at GM in Framingham MA.  To top it all off her parents actually 
are paying for my sons college.  Hell my ex Father in Law use to work for me, 
I know.

And If my son was living with me I would expect him to contribute toward his 
education and I'd match that.

I did call the ACLU, but they told me to look in the yellow pages for a 
lawyer.. I haven't been able to find a good lawyer yet.  You do all the work 
and they collect the pay, and no support in court!

Wheew!

    1. Prove to the court that she has trumped it up the game. And now you
    have a case against her and then sue her for what ever. As in
    Intentional Efliction of Emotional Distress.
    
    2. Show the courts that there is no provision in the final decree that
    makes statement to college funds. 
    
    3. If she has attacked bank accounts from the divorce. Re open these
    wounds and hold her accountable for them. 
    
    4. Get involved with the fathers group and learn how to write your own
    motions. There is a thierom called the "Viet Nam" where you will spend
    $10 to her $1. When you dump your attorney, you anti up the odds of
    success because who know the case better than you? And because now its
    your day(s) vacation vs the $150-200 per hour the opposing camp is
    spending. She will now have the fat F111 to be shot out of the sky vs
    you. Now you write you motion (bambo rocket) for pennies and she spends
    the $$$$$ to hire an attorney.:) 
    
    

    I think you got that backwards, George.  She'll spend $10-100 to your
    $1.  However, you have to be able to show the court that you have a
    valid complaint (your not just harassing her) or you can end up paying 
    for her attorney.

    On the other hand, if you can show that _she_ had no case when she
    hauled _you_ into court, you can ask for atty fees, damages (bank
    accounts), intentional infliction of emotional distress, etc.  
    Even if you loose, it's not something that she'll want to repeat
    any time soon.

    fred();

    �I think you got that backwards, George.  She'll spend $10-100 to your
    
    In the begining I am right. When you learn how to write/roll your own
    then your right.:) 

    The way I read it, it looks like you can prove false statements.  Were
    those false dollar figures supplied under oath?  
    
    I'd put together a chronology and send it to the same Constitutional
    Consultant who helped Kurt win custody.  It looks like everything from
    malicious prosecution to perjury to me.  Were you represented by a
    lawyer?
    
    
                                        Kurt

This last go around neither of us were represented by a attorney.  The last 
time I went it cost me $500.00 and I had to haul him to the Court of Regents.

When she took me to court I explained to the judge that there was no 
complaint, ditto Family Services.  This went over the judges head.  She 
sprung the college costs on me then and there, still over the judges head.

After court I contacted the School and got all the correct information. I 
then went back to the court and filed for a another hearing.

I presented all the information to the judge.  He ives me hell for not having 
it the first time, listens to her as she throws bull all over, and refuses to 
change his decision.

Believe me I never ever did well in court, no matter how much Hard 
documentation I had.

Cal

    One of the things that probably helped me was that I campaigned openly
    during election to have a couple of the judges removed from the bench,
    and I filed a complaint against one with he disciplinary commission.
    I did not get either of them removed from the bench, but two things 
    happen when you do that. 1) The judge can no longer sit on your case 
    since they now have a personal interest, 2) The other judges know 
    who you are and that you will not take the b.s. sitting down.  I 
    finally got a judge that treated the case fairly and won.

    fred();

    I hope, Cal, when you go into court that you have a court recorder
    going. You can request one each time you enter. It protects your civil
    rights and keeps the judge from calling his own shots.

>>                                                                    She 
>> sprung the college costs on me then and there, still over the judges head.

    Did you object on the spot due to lack of proper notice?
    Did you request all that information prior to the hearing via 
    interrogatory?
    Have you put together a chronology?
    
    
                                      Kurt

    
    Hi!
    
    I have a question which I couldn't really answer for a friend of mine 
    and I am hoping maybe someone could answer it. He is getting divorced
    in Mass., his soon-to-be ex-wife agreed 9 months ago on a child-support
    amount that would help both of them....since then she has gotten a 
    lawyer and is pushing the lawyer to get as much out of him in child
    support as he can since she is very bitter with him.
    
    He filled out a financial statement awhile back and just two months
    ago got a 4% pay raise. His problem is that he's been told that he
    is at high risk of being transitioned out of the company, his wife's
    lawyer has scheduled a court date to finalized the divorce this month.
    He is representing himself in court which is something I advised him
    not to do but due to his finances, he can't afford a lawyer to
    represent him.
    
    His questions were:
    
    Can he push out that court date until he knows definately if he will
    have a job or not?
    
    Can his wife's lawyer request from DEC his pay salary and use that to
    define his child support payment without his knowledge?
    
    If he is not able to appear at court that day, will the court base
    thier decision of the child support payments on his the last financial
    statement and will they grant the divorce anyway even though he is not
    there?
    
    Any answers will be greatly apreciated!
    
    Manny
    
    
    
    
     
     

    He can ask for a continuance due to what ever good excuse you can find.
    Like being on a business trip for that week. Thus smushing it out
    another month. After that..... its anyones guess.
    
    Second, no, they cannot demand money that you dont have. Although there
    have been cases to the contrary. If your pal loses the ol 40 hour he
    files a motion for a reduction of child support ASAP. And then the
    wheels of fortune come to a screachin halt. The will also come to a
    halt if he gets slammed into the big house too.:) 
    
    Get a divorce in Mass where there are more lawyers per square inch than
    there is slime in the local waste water plant. Your chances of fair 
    divorce are about the same odds as surviving a first stike and being 
    staked out on the ground at zero level. :) 
    
    

My understanding is that in Massachusetts there is a formula, and unless
the custodial parent askes for less, the guidelines will be ordered by the
court.   Roughly 30% of gross.   Note 197.1 contains details.
If the custodial parent makes more than $15k, then the order is reduced.
Also note, when the youngest child is 6, if the custodial parent works
less than full time, the custodial parents income will be adjusted for
40hours/week.   (I win on this as of October).

Usually the order is taken directly out of your pay and sent to the state.
Lots of people complain about this.   I didn't like the idea, but I've had
no trouble, and she can't complain I didn't do it.

I think that when your friend goes to court he will be required to swear
the financial statement is correct.

Either party can go back to court at ANY time to request an adjustment
to the support order.   And when the request is filed, it can be requested
retroactively.     So stalling until he gets laid off isn't necessary ...
As soon as he's out of a job, he just has to request an adjustment.
Note also, there can't be the appearance that being out of work is done
to avoid paying child support.

However, if he's currently paying less, and his wifes request wasn't
filed to be retroactive, he might do well to find a way to stall.

    
    Thanks for the replies!
    
    From what he told me he currently pays her 27% of his salary (gross) for 
    child support and left her everything else except his clothing. If it 
    wasn't for his pay rise he wouldn't be able to make ends meet, he
    showed me the draft of what her lawyer wrote up based on the child
    support guidelines in Mass and it shows that he would have to pay out
    33% of his gross income which would bring him back into the red.
    
    If he gets laid off (which he thinks is going to happen), it will be hard
    on him financially even though it may only take 4-6 weeks to get into
    court to change the order.
    
    His concern is that her lawyer may have sent something to Digital
    requesting how much his salary is and then try to figure the child-support
    payments on that without considering his other bills and if he is not
    able to make it to court then they would make judgement on that instead
    of making it on his last financial statement which is outdated.
    
    So can lawyers request from companys people's salary??? How about
    pension plans/ 401k ..etc...etc...
    
    Can they use that information to determine the child-support amount
    without him writing up a new financial statement??
    
    

    You can be asked to cough up half of that pension plan or 401K as part
    of the settlement. NOT as after the fact. Its best to not bring up
    these things unless the opposing camp does. If your lucky the opposing
    camps attorney will be busy with sooooo many other divorces that there
    will be something they forget.:) Usually not. But if it is a goverment
    pension. There is a claus in the finer print that says they are not
    entitled to it and if there is an issue about it see your service folk.
    
    

    He may not be able to get the the payments reduced on what _may_
    happen, but he can go in (and should) as soon as if/when his
    circumstances change.  Ie he gets "tfso'ed".  However if he
    intentionally quits his job, he may not be able to get a reduction.
    fred();

          I get to go through round 2 in court on the 12th. On December
    10 I left a 3rd shift job for a regular day job. Since then I've been
    trying to get a temporary order revised to reflect my lower income. 
    Ironically for some reason the lawyers aren't on good speking terms
    or?? It's dragged on to the point where my finances are about to bottom
    out. At my current rate of pay she's getting 45% of my gross. I suppose
    my biggest concern is whether or not they'll grant a reduction. At the
    current $$ drain my creditors will be chasing me within a month.
    Ironically it was a call to STBE that helped get the date this week. My
    lawyer wanted to put if off until the 3rd week of January.
           
    
          Anyone ever been in this situation before?
    
           I've also reached a point where I'm going to ask the courts to
    take under advisement whom the kids wish to be with. My motive would be
    to keep them together at all costs but to at least show that ,if I'm
    right, that 2 of my 3 children would prefer being with me. Can't say
    anymore right now as there's been a tremendous flow of info from the 
    kids.
    
                 Bob 

    re: -1
    
    I think that if you went off of 3rd shift voluntarily, that my qualify
    as a 'voluntary reduction in pay' and the court may expect you to keep
    paying the same rate of support.  I'd suggest explaining why you 'had'
    to leave 3rd shift.  I dunno, tho, shift premium may qualify as
    overtime in some judges mind, and not count as base pay........it probably 
    comes down to how you present your case....I'm just guessing.
    
    Steve

    Some courts will take in overtime as part of the monies paid. Although
    this is unfair. And some will tell you that your not earning your full
    potential and you WILL have to work a second job. Kinda makes you
    re-think your thoughts of re-marring someone.....ever....

    My instances with child support are several years old but my ex had
    child support reduced in a similiar instance.  I believe there is an
    age requirement (12?) for asking the childs preference in living
    quarters.

          Actually I'm sort of looking forward to what'll happen. I managed
    to confirm this morning that her boyfriend is still spending nights at
    the house. Keep in mind we're only legally separated. She'd filed a 
    nofault in May of 93. Her and her lawyer have stonewalled since then
    and from my understanding due to the time involved it now defaults to
    a contested divorce. Her reason for stonewalling has to do with a
    pre-existing medical condition, which she claims I worsened, preventing 
    her from working more than around 16 hours a week. She now has the energy 
    to help her new SO load cordwood into a dumptruck!! 
          I have very good reason for leaving 3rd shift. I have my children
    every other weekend plus 2 weeknights when STBE works. My kids had been
    arriving 2-3 hours after I got out of work meaning on her workdays I'd
    get 2-3 hours of sleep. My work hours were 11pm-9am. When I complained 
    to her about Tuesdays being my longest day and could she not work on
    Tuesdays (usually when I got home from work on Tuesdays I'd been up for
    24+ hours) she told me to take some sleeping pills so I could sleep
    Monday afternoons! Instead almost as if for punishment she worked 2
    straight months tues and wed. Leaving 3rd shift meant eliminating the 
    risk of going to sleep at the wheel and being able to spend some
    quality time with my kids. Either way I'll be prepared because I did
    voluntarily leave 3rd but I truly feel my health was at risk.
    
    
                wish me luck!!
    
                 Bob

    Sounds like a viable case for going back to 1st shift, Bob.  Whenever
    the children's welfare is at stake, I would hope you'd get the court's
    attention.  Good luck!
    
    Steve

          Well I found out quickly that amending a TO isn't allowed except
    in an emergency. In spite of this the magistrate attempted to mediate
    something we could both live with. STBE and her lawyer said no way. I'd
    voluntarily taken a cut in pay so I should eat all of it! So off we
    went to the cortroom where my lawyer informed me sat the toughest
    female judge in Worcester. She pretty much echoed what the magistrate
    had said in that a TO normally isn't emendable. She then ,thank GOD!!,
    looked at what I'd been paying and agreed it was too far above formula.
    She said in light of a huge backlog in divorce court that she's cut the
    CS payment by setting the payment halfway between what I'd been paying
    and formula. She then gave STBE a vicious tongue-lashing for allowing 
    her boyfriend to stay overnight while my kids were present. So I guess
    even a tough judge if you have your data together will try to reach an
    equitable solution to $$ woes. I'm not 100% happy but as my lawyer told
    me as we left "let's get the heck outa here before she changes her
    mind". The pre-trial hearing on the "D" will be in 4-6 weeks when all
    is said and done I'll be back down to formula or the custodial parent!
    FWIW one thing that really ticked off the judge was STBE's lawyers
    insistance that she requires $522/wk after taxes to make budget. The
    judge said that nobody needs that much money to live on. I have to
    agree she was 100% right.
    
                Bob 

    Thats the best judicial decision I've ever heard of coming out of
    any Worcester domestic court Judge.  Count your blessings!
    
    Good Luck,
    beb