Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    It is best not to do a class act. Because you get a once around. Plus
    if your class loose, they (DOR) can do what ever their little black
    hearts want. Best is mono-e-mono!:) 
    
    Yes, DOR cannot do this, and if you show the courts that the money is
    being paid, you can sue the DOR, and Sue the panites off the ex. I
    would do both. 
    
    The posture of DOR is that they wish to remain a fault-less entity.
    Meaning, they are above the law, and like some state or goverment(s)
    you cannot sue them. WRONG! Supreme court of the land has not determine
    that they are or are not imune to lidigation. Have fun and remember
    this. That I will cost them $$$,$$$.$$ if you do go pro-se. Kinda like
    shooting down F111's with bambo rockets. Nothing to loose, execpt
    your job if you get thrown in jail. But when the ex pulls this kinda
    crappie, your on your way to the Gray Bar Motel anyhow. So you have
    nothing to loose.

    
    	Dan, I had a similar thing happen to me, but the DOR didn't do it
    	on it's own. The court ordered an additional 25% until $850 was
    	paid off based on an AFFIDAVIT the EX signed.... no due process
    	I wasn't notified of anything until payroll sent me a letter
    	explaining the new deduction rate. It took me 4 days ( over 2 month 
    	span ) to get my money back.... plus the degradation/abuse of the 
    	scum of the probation dept.... it's just another example of the
    	abuse of power
    
    	I have a friend who lives in Groton who HAD a dog, (the dog died last
        fall). My friend's been away on vacation for 2 weeks, he got a
        $35.00 ticket in the mail which basically said he has been OBSERVED
    	in voliation of of the Dog Licience law, and he has 21 days
    	to go to the court and prove he's not a outlaw.
    	The ticket was dated Aug 26, postmarked Sept 11 and he recieved 
        it Sept 14, (today is the 21st day). This guilty until proven
        innocent crap is really getting out of hand. Every day our 
    	freedoms are being eroded. The government is the first one to 
    	ask why when somebody pings out and does something drastic.
    
    	
    
    

    Remember that Dead Dogs don't wear Plad...:)

    
    re .0
    
    If he can prove that he _has_ paid all of the support, (ie canceled
    checks) he will likely have grounds for one whopper of a law suit 
    against his ex and probably against DOR as an accessory for not doing 
    their job and checking things out before jumping into court agains him.
    
    NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER PAY CS IN CASH!!!!!!  If he did
    and if he doesn't have some sort of proof that he paid it, then
    he's neck deep in the feedlot without overshoes.
    
    fred();

    
    Personally, I don't think there is anything he can do, other than go to
    court and explain that he wasn't behind in his payment.  (I am assuming
    they increased his support payments to make up for his arrearage (??) and
    once that is caught up, the amount will go back down.)  If he proves
    that he wasn't behind, then they will just adjust the support payment
    to reflect this, but I don't thing there are any grounds for a lawsuit. 
    And if there was it would be alot of time and money put out on your
    friends part, and the return would not justify the cost.
    
    When I went to court for child support for my daughter, my ex agreed to
    just deposit the money weekly into my savings account (he works for DEC
    also).  It was explained to him that all he has to do is miss TWO
    payments, and I can go down and have his wages garnished.  He said he
    understood.  Things were going fine for a while, then he started to
    miss payments.  I did everything I could do to get the money from him
    nicely without having to go back to court.  I called him, wrote him,
    etc.  Each time we spoke, it was a nice conversation with him telling
    me that he was in class and his paychecks/timecards got screwed up and
    that he would be putting the $$ in the account asap.
    
    Then another week went by, I made another call and he started arguing
    with me about the money, telling me that he wasn't going to pay
    anything and that he was cutting off all medical insurance for my
    daughter.  Now, I'm sorry, but $80 per week plus medical is not much
    money for someone to pay, especially when the daycare cost alone was
    $110/week.
    
    To make along story short, I took a day off from work, went down to the
    courthouse and filed for wage garnishment.  I ended up loosing about 3
    - 4 weeks of support, but at least I get my check every week.  I also
    feel that wage garnishment is cheaper for the non custodial parent
    anyways.  You don't need to write a check, therefore pay for a bank
    service charge, you don't need to use a stamp, and there is always a
    record --- the ex can't say she didn't get paid when she actually was.
    
    The way I look at it is, you're gonna pay the money anyway, why not
    just have it taken out of your pay.  You may say that you are loosing
    your rights, but do you say you are loosing your rights when MetPAy
    takes your insurance out of your check, when DEC takes your medical
    costs out of your check, etc.??  It is the same thing.
    
    I don't mean this note to sound harsh, so please don't take it that
    way, 
    
    Thanks
    Debby
    
    

    Debby,
    	I understand what you are saying. but....
    The DOR is an administrative nightmare. When they screw things up it 
    takes forever to get it fixed. 
    	You sound like an honest, straightforward woman. But many aren't.
    To allow the DOR to arbitrarily decide that someone is in arrears on
    accusations alone does't give the DOR or anyone else to take money from
    someone until the allegations are substantiated. Due process cannot
    be subjugated for any reason. It's a fundamental constitutional right.
    	The fact that a government agency can act independently of the
    judicial system is the other piece of this problem. A hearing must
    find just cause for collecting arrears, not allegations!
    			Dan D.
    

    Of course there is suit. Anytime your falsely accused, falsely
    arrested, falsely this or that, and there is damages/injury, you bet
    your bippy there is a suit. Thing to do is to keep the cost against
    them very low, and make it very costly for them to chase or fight back.
    
    When ever you step into court, you should always make sure you have 
    your civil rights in motion. Request a court recorder. And do not speak
    till the fingers are moving or the wheels of justice are turning. 
    You should always have all the information to prove your point. 
    
    Everytime DOR/DCYS gets money from your pocket, they can now show how
    efficiently they are running their administrition. They can also 
    get more funds from the federal goverment as a match set. Hence 
    there is a bounty on you NCP's. And DOR/DCYS is lookng for you.
    
    Debby,
    
    No your not sounding hostile. Your doing fine. In your case, you had
    no other option. There are many stories on both sides of the fence.
    

    
    Thank you Dan and George, I understand your point now.  Thankfully I am
    not in a position where I need to deal with the DOR, but I can
    understand that it could end up as a nightmare to try to get $$ back
    that you overpaid.  Dan, I can also understand your friends frustration
    with the whole matter.  Personally, I don't think it is fair what
    happened to him.  Lets all hope & pray that the judicial system will
    eventually start being more equal to non_custodial_parents (ie. Dads).
    
    Good luck to your friend in whatever he does.  Please let us know what
    the outcome of this is, for future reference.
    
    Thanks
    Debby
    

    Debby,
    
    Your welcome. And yes, lets pray that someday there will be justice
    for the NCP. For someday, if it has not happened to you already,
    you just might marry an NCP. And if the ex is a wild and crazed woman,
    you will never have peace. You might even find yourself in bankruptcy
    court, might even find yourself assulted by her and other such horra
    stories. Yes, there is justice. But you will have to work very hard for
    it. And chances of recovering over paid money. It won't happen.
    

  .6> The way I look at it is, you're gonna pay the money anyway, why not
    > just have it taken out of your pay.  You may say that you are loosing
    > your rights, but do you say you are loosing your rights when MetPAy
    > takes your insurance out of your check, when DEC takes your medical
    > costs out of your check, etc.??  It is the same thing.

       In my opinion, this is logically correct, and in some cases
       necessary, however there is a side to this that is emotional.
       Imagine that the electric company, telephone company,
       bank/landlord, garnish YOUR check for the amount due!?  Would it
       be unpleasant to know that they could do it WITHOUT your
       permission?

       I pay my electric bill on time, but if I was late, it would still
       upset me to have them garnish my check without my permission.

       Richard

    To suport Richards point also, you can become up to 90 days late before
    the utilitie company comes after you. And if you say your having a tuff
    time they can and often cut you slack. But, as an NCP, the ex cuts your
    throat.:) Logical to me?:)

    RE: RAUH
    Good point, and a key one at that. What's the justification for abuse
    of power. 
    One other piece of info. Anyone accused of arrears is referred to the
    "Tax Return Intercept Unit". Once they're involved you're in trouble.
    Lets say your $300 behind. They will notify the IRS and aquire your
    return, say $2000. This money goes into the "general fund", $300 goes
    to the Custodial parent and you have to file court action to recover
    the rest. Could take 6 months to get a hearing and there is no
    guarantee the judge will award you the $1700 balance owed you!
    I've talked to people who've been at it for 2 years trying to recover
    moneys owed them!!! What a mess!@#$##!@#$%
    			Dan D 

    ....and if your trying to pay the hers, mine, and the childrens
    attornies back. That is a tuff sled to drag in the sand. Never mind
    paying for maintence/alimonie, car insurance, health insurance,
    mortgage on the marritial home that they will live in, and trying to
    put some cloths on your back, food in your hollow tummy and wheels
    under your feet. 

    Three years ago, my x came after me for non payment even though she had
    been getting paid. She claimed THIRTEEN YERAS on non payment. About 20k
    worth. All a bunch of pure unadulterated crap but stuff the DOR just
    LOVES to get their hands on.
    
    Without going into all the civil rights violations, violations of
    existing laws, and ignoring court orders that the DOR routinely
    does/did, it's over now. As of a couple of weeks ago, the support
    order, in all respects, has been terminated.
    
    My question is this. Support payments were being made through a wage
    attachment (actually, I agreed to set it up this way). The support owed
    was all paid up as of the middle of June. Wanna guess whether the DOR
    released the attachment or not??????????? My calls were ignored, I
    could get NO information from anyone and to make a long story short,
    the DOR ended up taking almost 2K more than what was owed by the time I
    was finally able to get before a judge and get it stopped.
    
    Naturally, the DOR isn't the least bit interested in talking about the
    excess they took. Does anyone have any suggestions, or has anyone been
    successful in getting this money back from the DOR??????????
    
    Steve

    I know exactly what you mean, from the other end.  When after two years
    of DOR lying to me and never returning my phone calls, I finally put in
    a complaint.  When the DOR rep finally was forced to meet with me to
    send a request to North Carolina for collection (something I'd been
    told had been done for two years) he was not at all prepared, even
    though he knew I was on a lunch break from work and the appointment was
    made a week in advance. 
    He refused to use a calulator, insisting he was a mathamatical wiz.
    Every month of payment, amount due, and balance had to be separately 
    written and figured for 4 years (though it was on computer somewhere
    else and I'm sure he could have done it that way if he'd had a clue).
    When he came up with a number which was $2000 to low, he told me that
    was good enough, I said it wasn't, he had to find the mistake.  When I
    took out my calulator, he took this as an insult.  He tried again,
    found a couple mistakes and came up with another number.  Since it had
    been two hours, I'm sure he figured he had time on his side and tried
    to get me to sign a BLANK, NOTERIZED statement, telling me he'd put the
    amount in later when he found his mistake.  I refused, he said I'd have
    to come back, I refused to leave. He left and fumed to his boss and
    everyone in the office I'm sure. He came back and went over the numbers
    again, this time coming up with an almost correct number to the penny,
    except it was exactly $3000 more than what my ex owed.  He told me he'd
    write it up, I should be happy with that, "you can sign it NOW!". I
    refused.  He left and fumed some  more, I knew the error had to be at
    the end of the calulations because it was so close, I found it.  The
    correct DOC was signed and noterized, and sent to North Carl., 2 weeks
    later my ex moved. It probably wasn't  worth it.  The DOR is hopeless
    for help on either end. I hate to call them again.
    
    Sharon

    There is only one way to deal with the DOR but that belongs in the 
    SOLDIER_OF_FORTUNE notes file.

    So I take it no one has ever been successful at getting anything back
    from the DOR. I figured as much but thought I'd ask anyway. I've pretty
    much written it off.
    
    The sad part of this whole thing is that people (in general) and even
    alot of people that have the DOR working "for" them don't have a clue
    just how bad the DOR is. They are quite litterally ABOVE THE LAW. They
    do whatever they want, whenever they want, and could care less about
    laws and even judges orders. Both myself and my attorney were told, on
    a conference call with a senior member of the DOR, that they ROUTINELY
    ignore judges orders. No big deal.
    
    The problem is, and I predict that this will happen not to far down the
    road, when you have an entity like the DOR that is running TOTALLY out
    of control and thumbs it's nose at the laws, they will eventually do 
    something to someone thats SO outrageous, and so illegal, they won't be
    able to sweep it under the rug, and our spineless politicians won't be
    able to look the other way. When that day comes, everything will come
    out and the politicians, fearing for their jobs, will "pretend" they
    had NO IDEA what was going on and will clamp down on the DOR. The only
    way they will be able to do that is to "restrict" what the DOR can do
    by making it harder to go after people that should be paying support.
    Unfortunately, the only ones that will end up suffering because of that, 
    are the women, men and children who really need the help.
    
    To tell you the truth, I really surprised that individual women,
    women's groups involved with getting laws passed, etc. aren't climbing
    all over the DOR to get them to clean up their collective acts before
    they screw it up for everyone. Ma. has some of the toughest laws on the
    books with regards to child support. All the DOR has to do is FOLLOW
    those laws and stop making up their own. You know what they say about
    giving someone enough rope..........
    
    Steve

    Steve,
    	
    	If the DOR owes you money get it back when you do your state
    taxes. Put it down as an over payment of taxes or whatever else
    you can think off. Take them to small claims court, get home phone
    numbers of upper management and call them at home, call the news media,
    call Jerry Williams on WRKO, do anything and everything. They stole 
    your money, if you can't get your money back get revenge.
    
    Mike

    Remember also, your Governer is about to give hurt to allot of their
    cronies. So there is a wee bit of good news.:)
    

    Mitchell Adams, I believe, is the head of the DOR. Find out where he
    lives and hound hime at home.

    Then serve him with a sopinia to cough up the money! Or put a lein on 
    his house.!"_)
    

    I was considering good old small claims court. Given that the DOR will
    undoubtedly maintain their "we don't HAVE to do anything" attitude, no
    one will show, and I win by default.
    
    Naturally, they're not going to pay me anything so I go back in a
    couple of weeks and now they owe me MORE cause they still won't show.
    
    They STILL won't give me anything so after the third time, I believe,
    they will owe me more again AND I get to have someone arrested...........
    
    Now let's see. Who's name do I put on the form???????????
    
    Steve 8^)

.15    the DOR ended up taking almost 2K more than what was owed by the time I
.15    was finally able to get before a judge and get it stopped.

	Were you represented by a lawyer when you went before the judge ?
I would think the lawyer should be able to tell you how to get the
excess back.   My understanding is that when a motion is filed to get
support changed, it can be filed in two ways.  In one way the change is
effective only when you get to court, in the other way the change is
retroactive to the date of filing.   If the lawyer didn't file it correctly
maybe you have a suit against him ??

	Perhaps you should be asking the ex for the back support ??
Unless you have evidence the DOR didn't give the money to your ex,
you are probably wasting your time to pursue them in court.   If your
ex doesn't want to give the excess to you, perhaps you should take her
to small claims ??

    Perhaps some good news comes out of the goverment shutdown...;) Some
    their pals are on the streets....

    Maybe this is where this note belongs...
    
    
    Several week's back, we received a letter from the state of Indiana
    stating my spouse owed 9 weeks of backdated support and they were
    taking our taxes - I could file injured spouse and he could request an
    administrative hearing.  After calling the # on the letter 15 times, he
    gave up and sent a certified return receipt requesting the hearing.
    
    Note:  they tried once before through USERA to collect a false
    arrearage and we won.
    
    My spouse pays through the MA DOR - we can account for every single
    payment - his child support account is current!
    
    Can anything be done about this harassment from the state of Indiana? 
    How many times can they try to get money they are not owed?
    
    etc. etc. etc.
    
    any feedback appreciated.
    
    joyce

    Got interrupted....
    
    Given he requested the admin. hearing in the state where the order was
    issued (MA - when the URESA action took place the State of MA issued a
    child support order, the original order was issued in KY)
    can they go ahead and take the tax money - or do they have to await the
    outcome of the admin. hearing in MA.
    
    oops
    gotta go
    
    joyce
    
    

    IF and when you do go to a hearing. 'MAKE SURE IT IS A RECORDED
    HEARING!!!' As in, there is a court recorder. And at no time do you
    discuss anything with out it present. Wether it is a tape machine or it
    is a person typing. Nothing is said execpt, that you want one and
    reqested one, and that you want to rescual this hearing till one is set
    up.
    
    Insofar as beating them. Your best bet is to now start going to the
    press, going to the media, and letting the world know of this constant
    crappie happening in your life. You cannot continue to pay and pay and
    pay for their mess ups and it is time to laundry their wash to the
    world. Esp if they will NOT reply to your phones,letters, or fax's! 
    Get out on Internet, get it to how ever will talk to you with a camera!
    
    

    For the past 5 years, I have read nothing but the heart burns of your
    plight with the system, to which you have seen nothing but more heart
    burn. Now its time to burn them with going public. And making sure that
    the world gets a gander of what a bunch of crooked people are running
    the system. And how insencitive they are to listening to you. How many
    times have you been to court? How many miles have you driven to ensure
    that the SO's children were being raised right? How many hours have you
    put into this crap? 
    
    flame off.
    
    

    
    If you have proof that you do not owe the money, and can show that they
    should also have that information, then if they do go ahead and take
    your tax return, the subsequent lawsuit for malicious prosecution will
    make you very rich.  

    If you pay the support through the registry of the court, then you 
    can get a certified copy of the printout showing all the support
    is current.  Send it to them registered mail, return receipt.  Then
    if they take your tax return, get a lawyer and haul them into Federal
    Court.

    I made the mistake with the state of Minnesota on the very same issue.
    I spent a bunch of $$$ of my own money after I sent them all the court
    papers showing that I had paid all support and the support order had
    been canceled making long distance phone calls to get them to admit
    all support had been paid.  If I had just let them go ahead....

    fred();

    re. 29
    
    Given that I married my husband in March of '92 and joined this file in
    the vicinity of that date - you need to check your math.
    
    I didn't enter this note to be flamed at - I asked for information.  I
    realize this is an emotionally charged subject for alot of people,
    myself included, but I don't appreciate your 2 responses.  If you don't
    have constructive information/advice please don't reply.
    
    re. 30
    
    Thanks Fred for your informative reply, I have shared the information
    with my spouse.
    
    Respectfully,
    
    Joyce

re. 31

	I often have trouble understanding what George is trying to
say, and I may be wrong, but I think that in .29 he was attempting
to be supportive of you.   I think his message was not to flame you,
but to flame the system (DOR).
	The other message is that people having trouble with the DOR
need to fight back and maybe taking your story to the press will
help others.
	Perhaps another way to get help is to write your state
representative and explain how the DOR has been uncooperative.

    re. 31 
    
    I appreciate your inputs - I've had more than one phone conversation
    with George.  Perhaps I did misread his note...
    
    The problem is with the DOR in *Indiana* - they are initiating this -
    not the MA DOR.  Although I had to threaten civil rights violations
    when the URESA action took place 2 years ago.
    
    thanks
    
    joyce

    Joyce,
    Yes, I was not meaning to flame on you. I was pee'ed at DOR. I have had
    friends with their run ins with these people. I have seen them do some
    jack booted things. One in New Hampshire actually came in to a guys
    apartment and dragged him out of his bedroom in the cold snow. And
    chucked his body into a waiting van. The whole thing was a trump up on
    the exs part to break his spirt to get any part of visation. As you are
    trying to do. Every time I read your notes Joyce, I cringe, and
    sometimes cry over the horras that your and your husband go thru. There
    was a time when you could not find the kids cause she hid them in some
    part of the state? WV or some place?
    
    

    George,
    
    	She had them in Florida for a long time, then in Louisville and
    once we found them, then she moved them to Indiana where they have
    been.
    
    	We have visitation - but the Court never does anything to her when
    she violates the visitation agreement...
    
    	We had talked about moving to KY and when that didn't take place
    she maintained "since he wasn't spending quality time with the kids -
    she wanted an increase".  Of course - you can't spend quality time with
    kids you can't see....
    
    such is life
    
    thanks
    
    j