Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    This can be a tough one.  If there is any clause in the divorce/custody
    decree stating that she can't leave the state without your permission,
    then you have a bit more leverage, but not as much as you might think.
    
    If she is moving out of state to take a job offer or start school 
    in order to "provide a better living for the child" then you don't
    have much leverage, even if there is a clause in the decree.  The
    courts will often not enforce these clauses if they think the
    _financial_ benefit to the child will be significant.
    
    However, if she's just moving just to be moving.  Without any real
    prospect of improving her fincancial situation, then you have some
    leverage.  However, if you take her into court, her lawyer may explain
    this to her and the first thing she'll claim is that she has a job
    offer there or something.  I would advise talking this over with
    a lawyer.
    
    Your best bet may be to try to get the joint custody 6 mo./6 mo.
    agreement.  If the child still has a while before he starts to 
    schook, you have a while to decide how to work things.  He may
    be able to spend one semester there and one semester with you.
    May not be the best of arangements, but may beat the &^%$ out of
    the alternatives.  The alternative will likely be to change the 
    visitation to something like 2 mo during summer and alternate
    xmas and spring breaks with a few other times thrown in.
    
    Good luck,
    fred();

    You can, in many states, file a motion(s) to restrict the child from 
    leaving the state, county, 15/25 mile radius. You cannot restrict
    the mother, that would be against her civil rights. But the child
    can. Hence, if you wanna see him grow. Either write em, or reverse
    custody and ant-up to raising him yourself. There are many of men
    out here who have custody, who are not able to go and be free as
    the wind as we once were. But I rather take the responsibility of
    custody of my daughter then to never see her again. For my
    ex took off to points unknown in Maine. And I had to go find them.
    Do you want to know how many mobil homes there are in any given town, 
    hamlette, city, what ever in Maine? Its a lovely state. And I would
    not have known jack-feices about where the hell she was going if I
    had not paid attention to what was going on.
    
    George

    I have nothing but sympathy to offer you in regards to your present
    crisis.  But IF she does indeed move out of state, I would like to
    offer the following as food for thought:  I have a half-sister who is
    11 years older than I.  She is my fathers daughter.  When we were
    growing up her mother lived in the Niagara Falls area.  We lived in the
    Boston area.  I know that we saw her on holidays during the winter.  I
    do not remember the duration of her visits.  What I do remember,
    distinctly  and with great warmth, is that she spent the whole summer
    with us.  She arrived the weekend after school ended, and went back to
    her mother the weekend before school started.  

    As I said, this is just food for thought.

    re .0
    Are you legally seperated or just voluntarily apart? 

   The following is an anonymous reply from the base noter.


   						Terza
   					    -comoderator-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	RE: 229.4

		We are not legally separated, just voluntarily apart.
		We do plan on getting a legal divorce sometime.

		Thank you all for your responses, so far !!!

    .5 Then you had better file first or you will loose your chances of
    ever seeing your son. And I would start to consider that conversation
    of custody that she has offered you.
    

    You've got to begin to understand and accept your situation. 
    Presently , as George said in .5, you have only her word and good faith
    to go on at the moment. Sounds like you and her are still on good terms
    so open communication is still possible.
    As always in these cases the man is damned if he does and damned if he
    doesn't. 
    1) If you pursue legal action your gonna get the full wrath of the
    judicial system, 27% gross salary for child support and/or all medical
    and dental insurance, Visitation rights, and possible joint physical
    custody. Joint legal means almost nothing. Your chances at sole
    physical custody are almost nill unless you can prove she's unfit or
    unable to manage parental responsibilities.
    This action will be a temporary order pending the divorce. 
    2) If you do nothing you may be better off in the long run. One thing
    you have to understand is the state of residence of the custodial
    parent has jurisdiction over the childs welfare and your support
    obligations. Mass is the worse state to have jurisdiction over you.
    What state is she planning to move to? It might make a lot of sense to
    wait until she moves. Get some agreement on access to your child like
    you mentioned earlier, say summers with you and school with her.
    
    If you can work this out amiably between the two of you and have an
    agreement drafted and notorized may be the best first step. You've got
    the next 15-20 years support obligation to think about and you've got
    to look at this situation in those terms. You sound like you love your
    son very much but you've also got to have your own life. There's a lot
    at stake and you need make un-emotional judgements. This is all my
    opinion and I'm not trying to tell you what to do but rather offer a
    different view of your situation.
    			dan d
    

    
    One thing about filing for divorce.  It _may_ be better to have
    the jurisdiction in another state if you live in Mass., but if
    she moves to another state, then files for divorce in that state
    and that state takes jurisdiction, then it can be a _big_ pain/expense
    trying to fight the legal battles long distance.  
    
    fred();

	Please excuse me if some of my response seems insensitive.
	I do understand what you are going through.

>	I am in a situation where I am separated and my wife has
>	our 2� year old son living with her.  

	She already has him living with her.  She WILL get
	temporary custody.  Temporary custody = permanent custody.

>                                             She left back in
>	January and has lived in five different apartments since
>	then.  She can't seem to make it wherever she lives. 

	<begin sarcasm>
	She probably can't make it because you don't help her
	enough.  She will need more child support and of
	course alimony so that she can take time out to educate
	herself so that she can find a job that will allow her
	to support herself.
	<end sarcasm>

>	and I must admit (from what I know) she's good to my son.

	She's not unfit. She gets custody.


>	Anyway, she asked me how I would feel if her and my son
>	moved (out of state) in with her dad. 

	The court is very unlikely to stop her from moving.
	Do your best to accept that she is going and do what
	you can to maintain your relationship with your son.


>	         Then she said how about I have him for 6 months
>	and then you have him for 6 months.  I said no to that
>	also because I'm not sure how things would work out that
>	way.  I mean, him bouncing back and forth from home to
>	home every 6 months.  Once he starts school, this won't
>	work out.  Will it ???

	I didn't see my daughter for six months.  Six months is
	A LONG TIME not to see your child.  On the other hand,
	she sure sounds like she is willing to talk about it.
	Seize the opportunity.  Negotiate with her.  Hire a mediator
	if possible.

>	I don't know what to do in this situation.  I'll be damned
>	if I'm going to let her take my son away from me like this.
	
	If all else fails, take advantage of her weaknesses.  She is
	almost at rock bottom.  Maybe all she needs is a little push.
	She has no money.  Just try to even talk to an attorney with
	less than $2000 in your pocket.  Putting a little legal
	pressure on someone and just sitting back can cause desired
	behavior.  My ex would not negotiate.  After filing a couple
	of motions and sitting back for a number of months, she
	wanted nothing more than to get it over with.  Taking the
	initiative to file for divorce may also be helpful.  If it's
	in your state, she will be the one incuring all the costs for
	travel, hotels etc...  

>	of if anyone has experienced anything similar to this.

	Yes please see note 165 and also try to locate your nearest
	fathers' rights group.  You will most likely find support
	and advice from others who are in similar situations.

Best of luck,
Gary	

    One other thing to think of as you sit there pondering your next move.
    The longer you do not make a decision, the more your going to face 
    tougher walls from the court insofar as making change for the better
    for you and your son. Its no longer whats best for you and your ex.
    She has died in a terible car accident, she is brain dead and you now 
    must pull that plug. You must become very strong for yourself and for
    your son. He needs you very much. There are studies that show how
    important a fathers influence makes for children. Children are not
    exclusively moms or dads. They are on loan to you from God for
    the next 18 years. Then they belong to someone else. Not to
    be able to read to him, or see him grow to a man is going to 
    haunt you very much. I have a friend who has not seen his sons
    in some 15 years because of the ex and her alienation. He does
    cry on their birthdays, he does miss them very much. He has
    tryed to contact them and they are gone from his life. Life is
    a very short time. 

       I am not a lawyer either, and this is all "just my opinion" from
       my personal experience with this in NH:

       (1) If you think you want custody, file a motion now to keep your
           son (not her) in the state.  My son (14 at the time) wanted
           to change custody, and the ex tried to leave the state with
	   him (NH to Washington = 3,000 miles!).  The judge told her
           flat out, you can go, but he stays until a decision is made.

	   In my opinion, if you don't think you want or can get
           custody, don't file the motion, because you will only make
           her mad.
       
       (2) Keeping the peace between the two of you will save you tens
           of thousands of dollars and a ton of stress.  I didn't and it
           cost me big!!!

       (3) When the court gets involved, you will pay!  If she has
	   custody, you will pay child support.  If she doesn't have a
	   job, you will pay alimony, at least for a while.  When I
	   first got custody of my son, they extended the ex's alimony
	   because she told the judge, she was moving cross-country and
           didn't have a job yet.  The judge's explanation to me was, if
	   she doesn't have a job, and you do, you pay.  Thank Heaven,
	   it was a short extension, and I don't pay anymore.

       (4) I have custody of my son, and the ex now lives in Oregon (5
	   addresses in the last 3 years).  He visits her 6 weeks in the
	   summer (when he doesn't have something else he wants to do
	   more) and during Spring & Christmas break.

	   In my opinion, when she moves, your son is going to loose a
           lot of contact with one of his parents - be it you or her.

       (5) One last piece of advice.  Above all, make a deliberate
           effort to talk this out with a close relative or friend.  If
           you keep your emotions held in, the stress of  possibly 
	   loosing contact with you son will make you crazy!


       Good luck with this,
       Richard

    How about helping her financially so she doesn't have to move?
    
    She's not working, you are.......Sounds like you might be being a
    bit selfish.  Besides, if you don't help out, she will eventually
    figure out that she will have to take you to court to get child support
    from you.  
    
    I've seen employees have thier pay garnished.  It's not a pretty
    picture.  
    
    I'd work something out before it gets that far.

    .12
    
    � How about helping her financially so she doesn't have to move?
    
    I rather doubt that would make a tinkers damn. Mine was a very capable 
    woman who had a job that equaled mine in a weekly paycheck. She Moved
    to Maine to be with her beau, to make minimum wadge. 
    
    >>Sounds like you might be being a bit selfish.
    
    Sounds to me like you don't really understand that this person wants to 
    see his child. And for her to move sounds to me like she is more than
    a bit selfish. Sounds to me like the ex is very self centered. Perhaps
    like yourself.
    
    If there is a definate job someone is going to. That is one thing.
    If they are moving to get away from this rastus, rasputian man. Then
    they are smoking the fine blend and are hurting the child who has
    connections with his father, and local family.

    I think your situation and this situation are completely different. 
    This woman is not making the big bucks, and is not deciding out of the blue
    to move because she has a new beau.  She is moving because she can't
    make ends meet.  Moving in with her parents seems like a logical thing
    to do - especially if you have no where else to turn.
    
    I think she completely has the childs interests in mind.  - That is a
    stand more parents should take.  I applaude her courage to try to make
    a difference for her child.

    Forgot to mention,
    
    I do think this person wants to see his child, and I understand that.
    
    However, with all children comes responsibility. - I think the
    responsible thing to do is for him to help his ex support THEIR child.
  
    
    

    re .15
    
    >However, with all children comes responsibility. - I think the
    >responsible thing to do is for him to help his ex support THEIR child.
    
    I think the "responsible" thing here may well that if the CP cannot
    care for the child and the NCP can, then the child be turned over
    to the NCP.  I've seen all too many CP's that would drag their child
    through the gates of Hell rather than give up control and see the
    child be properly chared for.
    
    fred();

    �This woman is not making the big bucks, and is not deciding out of the
    blue
    
    How do you know? You know this woman personally? I hear this line more
    than enough. And when looking deeper into it its still the same game. 

    I only know what I have read.  This is how the basenoter described
    his ex's financial situation.  It seems that some of us have a
    "selective reading" capability.  By the way, money is not the only
    criteria for effectively caring for a child.  But, it certainly does
    help when you have to put food on the table and clothing on the child's
    back. 

    �By the way, money is not the only  criteria for effectively caring for
    �a child.

    Sounds like your contradicting yourself again. Beats me how your
    reading this. But, I would surmise, that the only way to understand
    whats going on is to:

    -Either experience it yourself

    		or

    -Watch others suffer thru it as many of us here have. 



    Peace

    I disagree that there has been any contradiction here at all.
    
    I do understand what's going on all too well.  
    
    Single parenting isn't easy.  Bottom line, if I had a child that was
    not with me and in need, I would do everything I could to help that
    child's situation.
    
    N.

    Perhaps your one of the Beau's that have more visitation than the dads
    do. Feeling guilty about it and trying to justify your actions? Sorry,
    you picked the wrong person for sympathy. Remember she just might do
    you in too.:) Or as Billy Ray Vohn sings, "Your my first love baby, and
    I cannot wax you now." :) 

    There is a law that is on dockets of many courts in America as we
    speak. Its about beau's who interfere with the custodial time allowed
    the NCP. They bill wants those men who interfere incarcerated for such
    acts of cruelty.


    Peace

    .20 I know first hand about single parenting. I am a single parent of a
    4 year old little girl. 

    .22,  Surprise, me too!  I am a single parent of a 6 year old little
    girl.  Gee, to think we have something in common!
    
    N.