Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

This was posted on the Usenet and I thought it related to the
discussion that is being started here, so here it is.  Credit is at the
end of the article.

Erica Jong once wrote: "We long for men to share [parenting] tasks with
us equally...but we probably do not want to relinquish them.  We are
as attached to our children as ever.  Liberation has not severed the
umbilical cord - nor would we want it to."

[Victor Fuchs quoting Erica Jong in "Women's Quest for Economic
Equality", Harvard University Press, 1988]

This leads to a point that has long been bothering me, and which, if
people are willing to, I'd like to see discussed...

I often hear/see childbearing and childcare being held up as one of
the constants through which women are oppressed and held back.  Try as
they might, we are told, women can't break the bonds of childcaring.
It holds them back, makes pursuing a career difficult if not
impossible, and keeps women from realizing their full potential as
productive members of society rather than walking uteruses.

And yet, in my experience, very few women are actually willing to
relinquish that role of primary nurterer.  If a child is born out of
wedlock, the mother will keep that child and raise it as a single
parent.  If there is divorce, the mother will fight tooth and nail for
custody _even where they don't necessarily *want* custody_.
Profs. Maccoby & Wald, in their recent study, found that of 714
women, *17.2%* of them requested more legal custody than they actually
wanted.  ["Private Ordering Revisisted", Stanford, not yet published.]

My premise is that in a society where freedom of choice in all areas
of a woman's life seems to be a (rightly) dominant theme, women are
making some choices which are painting them into the corner.  In
short, women are holding themselves back.  The groups/movements which
are stressing a woman's special and unique situation by virtue of
being able, and solely able, to give birth are hurting their sisters
more than they are helping them.  To demand special treatment for this
"condition" is to deny the very equality we demand.

Kathleen Gerson, an assistant prof. of sociology at NYU, in her book
"Hard Choices: How Women Decide about Work, Career, and Motherhood",
cites incident after incident where women were somehow "pushed"
into choosing motherhood over a career or other social position.
An example:  "Remarriage to a child-oriented man thus prompted this
thirty-three-year-old, childless teacher to suppress her ambivalence
toward motherhood and trade her emerging independence for the security
of home and family."  This statement is couched in terms which make it 
clear that what happened here is a Bad Thing.  The woman "suppressed her
ambivalence" and "traded her emerging independence".  And yet, why did
this woman do this thing?  There is no indication that she was forced
to marry this man.  Indeed, we do not live in a society of arranged
marriages, a woman can marry a suitor or not, or not marry at all.

Similarly, a woman can have a child, or not.  If she becomes pregnant
accidently, she can keep the child, or not.  For many women these are
real choices.

Yet, when a man is willing and eager to assume the role of the
primary caretaker, which would relieve a woman of that burden and
allow her to pursue her career, the answer is almost always "NO!".
On the other side of the coin, women castigate the men who decide to
forego primary caretaking of their child in favour of pursuing their
career singlemindedly.  Yet, these very choices, if women were
to make them with the same outcome, would free women to pursue careers
with vigor, and on much more equal footing.  Some woman even go so far
as to denigrate the relatively few women who *do* make these sorts of
choices.

So, why is it that these choices are being made, in this manner, and
with these consequences?




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% Subject: Thoughts?

            There is a great movie that came out last year and is now on
       video tape called "Boys 'N the Hood".  Basically the movie is an
       examination of gang violence, and young black males in south
       central Los Angles.
       
            The central character is a boy, who changes custody from his
       mother to his father at age 10.  The story follows the boy
       through his teens and examines the things that a boy can learn
       from his father, that he may not learn as well, if at all, from
       his mother.

            One of the truly good parts of the story, is how they take
       great pains to show that the boy's mother is educated, works hard
       and has the boy's best interest at heart.  No where in the story
       does the boy's father degrade the mother, and no where in the
       story does anyone even imply that she is in anyway unfit to raise a
       child.

            There are only two scenes in which the mother and father
       really argue, and both debates center on different aspects of the
       same issue.  She says, "my son", meaning my responsibility and
       under my control, and he says "the boy is just as much my child
       as yours!"
       
            My son came to live with me on his own, without any
       prompting from me, or the approval of his mother.  And my answer
       to your question is -

         � Yes, a man can have custody without the mother being unfit, and

         � Yes, the father can portray the mother as "a loving, caring,
           real mother" (even while the father and mother are at war, as
           the ex and I still are) because those terms describe the
           mother-son relationship, not the ex-wife versus ex-husband
           relationship.
       
       
       Richard

    I sent my son to live with his father 3 years ago.  I did so
    voluntarily.  I'm not going to say I was the greatest mother in the
    world, but I did the best I could considering the circumstances.  The
    social stigma is there.  First when I had custody, what I heard was
    that I was only looking for a man to be his father.  Many times I saw
    and felt the derision in people's eyes when they found out I was a
    single parent and they found out how old I was when I had him.  The
    last man I dated let it be known very clearly that he thought I was
    somehow unfit because my son was living with his father and that hurt a
    great deal.
    
    Am I an unfit mother?  No.  I sent my son to live with his father for a
    lot of reasons.  It was the best thing I could have done for both of
    us.  
    
    Society has this idea that only mothers can give children what they
    need.  It's why mothers get custody most of the time and so many
    fathers are shafted in court.  So what needs to be done to change that 
    perception?
    
    Karen

    
    I think that a lot of the "unfit mother" syndrome can be attributed
    to the court system and the fact that in a *contested* divorce the
    mother not only must be proven unfit, but almost a basket case before
    custody will be awarded to the father.  In order to get custody
    *changed* (again cotested), you must not only prove that the mother 
    is unfit, but that remaining with the mother is out-and-out harmful 
    (physically and/or mentally) to the child.
    
    So it's easy to *assume* that if a mother does not have her kids, then
    she must be unfit.  Again we have many good people being muddied
    by a few bad.
    
    fred();

    I will agree with Fred, that the game has become an adversarial one.
    There are many nurturing fathers out there. What do you say to them
    when they don't get custody? Your an unfit parent? It seems to be
    THE message esp when we are denied visitation. Or when 
    the childs mind is poisoned by hatred and other such rubbish. 

    What of these mothers who tell the children that their father is
    !@#%$#$%#$$ ??? What do you tell these mothers who are the CP who
    denied us visitation to our off spring? The courts act in a real
    sympathy manner. I an acquaintance of my fathers group, has seen his
    daughter 3 times last year. And has a contempt of court motion in
    and its going to take another 6 to 7 months before anyone will review
    the case. Justice is as blind as the society that pramogate is folly. 
    
    Mothers who loose custody vs fathers who loose custody? Whats the
    differnce? Why can't we share?

    
    
    Why does it, when a Mother who does not have custody, whether fit or unfit
    become a tragic event, as a previous article stated. We fathers and
    those of us who really care and wanted custody aren't even considered
    for custody Unless there is proven fact that the mother is unfit or
    gives up custody. All of a sudden women organizations go into high gear
    when a mother becomes a non-custodial parent. I wanted custody from the
    beginning and was denied. Where is it written that the mother is the
    best parent for the sake of the children. I'd like to see it, 'cuz I
    sure don't believe it..... There are many Dads out here that can do as
    good as and probably better than some mothers. 
    
    Before all you Mothers come down on me, I'm NOT saying ALL... There are
    Dads out here that aren't worth spit either... In my case, I truly
    wonder if my boys (2) wouldn't be better off with me.... Give them up
    ???  What ?? and not have my support comming in any more ????? Nah, why
    should she give up money ?????????????????????????????????
    
    Doug ( Who_would_gladly_take_his_sons )
    

		I think it's a natural inclination for kids to believe in
	their parents.  A child wants to believe that their mom or 
	their dad loves them and is the best mom or best dad.  In 
	general,  a kid's mom or dad is the only one they will ever know
	in that role in their life:  there is no way they can make a 
	comparison really.  Even if your ex tries to turn the kids 
	against you,  there is a lot on your side to begin with.  If
	you continue to give the kids time and attention,  you'll be 
	giving that relationship the best chance you can.

		On the broader scale,  I think it's too bad that the 
	courts (and society in general) judge people by their own 
	stereotypes of "father" or "mother".  Becoming a mother or father
	doesn't really imply any personal qualities beyond the biological 
	ones.

		  When custody is contested in court,  the rule of thumb 
	seems to be that the kids (and the support) go with the mother 
	unless the father has a much better lawyer.  I bet if the court 
	dropped this system and went with a simple coin toss,  there 
	would be a lot more compromise between divorcing parents before 
	putting it up to a judge.   
	 
     

    Some responses to what's been said so far:
    
    re. -.1 (PENUTS::GWILSON)
    > ...very few women are actually willing to relinquish that role of
    > primary nurturer....So why is it that these choices are being made
    > in this manner, and with these consequences?
    
    Speaking only for myself, it was very difficult to relinquish the role,
    EVEN WHEN I KNEW I WAS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING A NURTURER, because I knew
    how society--including my immediate family and friends--would react and
    judge me. Unless one is asocial, it's very difficult to knowingly go
    against the grain.  I've always been something of a misfit, so I'm more
    comfortable than most with flaunting convention.  But making the
    decision to relinquish custody of my children was by far the hardest
    decision I've ever made and the only one I've continually (for 10+
    years) questioned myself after making.
    
    re. -.2 (PARZVL::GRAY)
    I particularly appreciated your responses to the question raised in the
    base note--that a man can have custody without the mother being unfit
    and that the father can portray the mother as a loving, caring, real
    mother.  I believe it's attitudes like these that will help make it
    easier for mothers to relinquish custody and for fathers to win it as
    we progress as a society.
    
    re. -.3 (RIPPLE::KENNEDY_KA)
    
    > ...I sent my son to live with his father for a lot of reasons. It was
    > the best thing I could have done for both of us.
    
    As you might imagine, Karen, I can identify with what you're
    saying--and with what you had to go through to make the decision.
    
    > So what needs to be done to change that perception?
    
    I'm hoping that discussions like we're having here and that examples of
    mothers like you and I will go a long way toward changing the
    perception.  I know that after 10 years my family and my friends (at
    least the ones who didn't cut me out of their lives) have all come
    around to agree with me that what I did was best for the children under
    the circumstances.  The best circumstances, of course, would have been
    for their mother and father to have remained in a compatible and
    healthy marriage.  Unfortunately, that wasn't an option.
    
    re. 5 (AIMHI::RUAH)
    
    > What of these mothers who tell the children that their father is
    > !@#%$#$%$$ ???
    
    I believe this has been discussed rather thoroughly in other strings in
    this conference.  I was hoping that this string could be devoted to 
    custodial fathers (as you are one, George) sharing what they are 
    telling/plan to tell their children about their mothers.  What about it, 
    George; it's no secret that you hold your ex in fairly low regard.  What 
    will you tell your daughter when she starts asking why she doesn't live 
    with her mother and tells about mean things the kids (maybe even the 
    teachers) are saying to her at school about her mother?  Will you be
    any better at answering this question than the custodial mothers you
    quote?
    
    re. -.6 (GIAMEM::DALRYMPLE)
    
    > Why does it, when a Mother who does not have custody, whether fit or
    > unfit become a tragic event....All of a sudden women organizations go
    > into high gear
    
    I wouldn't personally call it tragic, Doug, though some of the individual 
    cases I've heard of definitely qualify as tragic.  I'm afraid I don't
    understand what you're saying here in regard to the base note.  Could
    you restate your position?
    
    -.7 (VINO::MACNEIL)
    
    > A child wants to believe that their mom or their dad loves them and
    > is the best mom or best dad.
    
    Oh, you're so right!
    
    > Even if your ex tries to turn the kids against you, there is a lot on
    > your side to begin with.
    
    And to a large extent I agree with you here, too, though I would
    qualify it in the event of an abusive or abandoning parent.  But then
    none of us are either, right?  8-)
    
    
    I'd still like to hear more--and more specifics--about what you
    (fathers) would say to your child(ren) about a noncustodial mother,
    especially as they get old enough to realize that their situation is
    definitely not the norm.  And especially when they get to the age when
    deviating from the norm is worse than death!  The psychological trauma
    this might cause could, in my opinion, be just as devastating as the
    original divorce. Any thoughts/comments?
    
    Karen  
     

    Karen,
    
    I do not hold my ex to a low reguard. Disapointed reguard. I have been
    reluctant about posting much of whats going on in my divorce because
    its an on going process with allot of legal doo-dha's at the moment.
    I would be very happy to write to you off line about the subject
    matter. 
    
    I make weekends and wednesday nights for my daughter very special times
    for visitation. I press her a dress to go see her mom in. I have 
    bought balloons for Eva to take to her moms. I give her mother pictures, 
    all the time, of Eva. I beg to differ with your posture about my 
    relationship with my ex. 
    
    I have written stories of my experiences with our daugther for her
    mother and family. I have never called or fought with mother in front
    of Eva. I have always held a professional, matter of fact, conduct 
    with the ex. Never name called or other wise in front of Eva. Again
    I beg to differ. 
    
    I have gone out of my way to make sure that Eva has a good working
    relationship with her mom. Where her mom would not. 
    
    As I have stated before, and will state again. Children are not
    either parents exclusively. They are on loan to us from God, till
    they turn 18.
    
    
    Peace 

    
    Karen,
    
    I will, for you, restate my position as you have asked. 
    
    First, I am not the CP in my case, although I very much want to be. I
    was told by the judge I could not have custody. I have had a bitter,
    fighting at times (having/needing to go to court) to attempt to make
    it "fair". My ex has BAD MOUTHED me to our two sons quite often. They
    have approached me several times when heard the lies, the "your father
    this, your father that". I have had to straighten them out with the
    truth and all. They have remembered some of the things that was lied
    to them about only to then ask me, "Why does mommy lie". You tell me
    Karen. I don't bad mouth their mother. Why does she bad mouth their
    father. I have NEVER been behind in child support in 4+ years. I have
    been denied visitation 25-30 times plus other interferences. She wanted
    to end it, not me. She got the house, 95% of contents, almost 50% of
    my pay, etc etc... I got visitation and the bad mouthing.... 
    
    Try this one .....
    
    In court 4 years ago after I got extremely reemed by the Mass. court
    I still approached her and said " We still have 2 sons to raise
    together because we are their mom and dad". Before I could finish that
    sentence, she walked away from me....  Kinda told me something. Since
    then she has questioned me as to why am I still around. Why don't I
    just take off... Karen, I love my sons more then you know. I have done
    with them, taught them , nurtured (on going) them, participated
    strongly in their schooling etc. . You want to here from fathers about
    how we would handle a mother NCP situation in regards to what to say
    to the children ??? I'll tell ya, I have nothing to gain to bad mouth
    my sons mother because she is STILL their mother no matter who is the
    NCP or CP. She will soon see, the hard way I guess what it will cost
    her.... 
    
    If you would like to talk off line I would be very happy to discuss
    my thoughts further... I will add this though ....
    
    I'M A FATHER OF 2 SONS, AND I'M PROUD OF IT.. I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE
    
            EXCEPT TO SEE MY SONS... All I want is for NO interference
    
                          EVER ....................
    
    Doug

	Karen:

	I've taken a few days to think about the questions posed by you.

	In the fifteen months I have had custody, I have never said a 
discouraging or demeaning word about their mother.  I have let them get to know
me as a parent and individual.  With a little bit of luck and experience with
me they will have forgotten what their mother said about me.  Whenever the
children relayed a comment about me, I always said there are three sides to
a story, his, hers and the correct version.  I found that if I eliminated the
name calling, personal interpertation of incidents, and basic ugly comments, 
they would begin to understand a little fully about what is happening.  Kids
are the most resilient animals in the world, they can take all the crap you 
throw at them, and are still able to transcend above that.  I have made sure I
never throw any "crap" their way,  

	Lately, I have had problems with visitation weekends, where both 
children refuse to visit with their mother.  They have been dumped on, forced
to do my ex's housework, and left alone with no quality time spent.  I have had
to take them back to the G.A.L. for several visits, to get them over the refusal
of visiting with their mother, as I have run out of chits and favors a long
time ago.  I now wait around on Sunday evening when they are brought back from
their mother's.  If I notice that the weekend has been especially hard on 
them, I organize an immediate "family-meeting".  Where we don't attempt to
discuss problems with their mother, just try to help them understand how they
avoid the problems next time.  If it is to heavy for me to handle, I call the
next day and set up a meeting with the G.A.L.  However, I continually remind 
them it is their mother and will always be their mother, they nor I can change
that fact or her.  But even when the opportunity presents it, I never join in 
the conversation and go ex-busting.  As the weekend is their interpertation of 
the visitation and their mother, and not mine.

	The one area I haven't addressed is my own feelings about this.  I have
no use for my ex-wife.  I can state my feelings follow the same thought process
as Doug.  I have stood by and watched as my ex used the children for pawns only
to receive a rather healthy support check.  Which went for her own purposes, and
not for the children.  Which according to a Judge within the Middlesex Probate
Court this is permissable as "child support is actually family support".  I 
could have been considered ballistic when the children were still living with 
their mother, and I would receive calls at midnight because their mother wasn't
home yet.  And I could have been considered homicidal when my children were
slapped around by their mother and when the police were called in, they didn't
remove the children from the premises, and had listed on the police report as
the "disturbance had been quelled".  Although my daughter pleaded with the 
patrolman, while my son was locked in his room.  And I particularly hate the
damn system that continually protects people like this.  

	Nowadays, whenever I get a verbal jostle from my ex-wife through my
children, I only smile and say think about the three sides of a story.  And
they usually just walk away smiling.

	Sorry to have bored anyone, but this is the way life has become.

    As a costodial father I feel that their is no reason to impune
    the character of the non costodial mother or to make any rash
    judgemen about the fitness of the mother to manage the kids.