Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

		I have joint physical custody. It took two years of joint
	counseling to get there. I had to split combined income. In addition
	I split costs like summer camp etc. now the bad news. Some of the
	latest studies have questioned whether joint custody is a good 
	thing. The importance of the father and the mother in the childs
	life is undeniable. I can document how good joint physical is
	and how bad it is thorugh compent authorities, your judge will 
	probably already have decided how he feels about it. In most
	cases a judge will not allow joint physical custody unless he
	is convinced that the two people are able to communicate well.
	Getting custody against a woman's wishes is VERY expensive and
	difficult in Mass(quote several lawyers). Unless you can convince
	her that it's a good idea your in for some hard truckin.

	

    
           I have " Joint Legal Custody " and have had it right from
    the beginning/start. I live in Mass. also. It is 3 words on a piece
    of paper because various agencies i.e. being school, daycare etc
    didn't believe I had rights because my 2 sons live with their mother.
    Just yesturday, I had a meeting with my son's kindergarden teacher and
    she thought I only had visitation. She asked if I had rights to my
    sons report card, meetings with parents etc. I told her yes and she
    wanted a copy of the clause from the decree. I brought it with me
    highlighted no less. I have had to do this everywhere, everytime,
    everyplace that effects my sons. Know what's funny, ???? If I was NOT
    divorced, they wouldn't even ask !!! BUT, because I'm divorced, I have
    to show proof !!!! What's even MORE amusing is THEY ARE STILL MY SONS,
    NO MATTER WHAT MY MARITAL STATUS IS.......... 
    
    I must strongly urge you to go for "Joint Legal Custody" at minimum ...
    Make the court/judge tell you WHY you can't have joint legal custody.
    Believe me, if you don't, your nightmares will be many and the B.S.
    will get deeper. I know, I've been going 4+ years now with joint legal
    custody AND still have problems. But, people back off when they see or
    hear that I have JLC. It does make a difference...
    
    I would gladly talk off line if anyone needs help.. 
    
    Good luck and GO FOR IT ....
    
    
    Doug

	Are you already divorced with custody established?

	The reason I ask is that, in NH, after the final divorce decree, a
	change of custody can only happen if; (1) the child(ren) are in 
	eminent danger or (2) the child(ren) are old enough, mature enough,
	and ask for a change in custody.

	Someone correct this, if I'm wrong.  But as I understand the system,
	once custody is established, no matter how noble the motivation, the
	system bends over backwards not to change it.

	Don't let a lawyer play on your emotions and take your money, if 
	what you are asking for is not possible under the rules of the game.


	Richard

>	The reason I ask is that, in NH, after the final divorce decree, a
>	change of custody can only happen if; (1) the child(ren) are in 
>	eminent danger or (2) the child(ren) are old enough, mature enough,
>	and ask for a change in custody.

>	Someone correct this, if I'm wrong.  But as I understand the system,
>	once custody is established, no matter how noble the motivation, the
>	system bends over backwards not to change it.


   This is pretty much correct.  See Webb v. Knudson.  I think it
is in Volume 133 of the NH Reports.  I found an interesting exception
to this rule.  I was able to have the custody provision vacated
based on fraud.  By this, I mean that I agreed to allow her to have
physical custody based on the belief that I would see my daughter
regularly.  Unfortunately, as soon as she tricked me into signing
the paperwork, she fled the state.

Gary

		The custody will be joint legal unless compelling evidence
	is shown the one person is totally unfit.
		Having any control over things is a different natter 
	entirlely.

		

    I believe the base noter is in Canada, which makes US law kind of moot.
    
    I had joint physical custody of my son with his father between the
    child's ages of 6 and 13.  At that point, his father moved out of state
    and we changed the rules without input from the legal system.  As long
    as you have joint legal custody, and neither of you is going to go to
    court, it's possible to do *lots* of stuff.  Just you and the ex must
    agree to it.  If you and the ex can't agree to it, joint physical is
    probably going to be harder on the kid than you expect.
    
    I can't help with the legal issues, as we worked it out before we went
    for our final divorce decree.  (Took us three years from separation
    until we went to court, 'cause we wanted to work all this out on our
    own *first*.  Simplified things tremendously in the long run.)  If you
    want input on the practical, day-to-day how it worked, feel free to
    ask.
    
    Alison

Hi,

To answer one question, there is currently only a separation agreement in place,
we are looking at the final divorce proceedings to get joint custody.

Yes, I am in Canada, yes, some of the rules are different here than the U.S.

An as mentioned, I understand the road is tuff and hard even once your on the
right tracks.

More later....

John

    Hi,
    
    I am currently in a divorce process.  This note and conference has been 
    very informative and enlightening.  My son is 7 and my daughter is 14.
    By fabricating complete lies my wife got an ex parte restraining order
    on June 27 '91 and had me removed from the house.  I moved into my
    mother's finished basement and my daughter came to live with me in Oct.
    Due to the difficult financial situation (I contiue to provide 100%
    support) we postponed getting an apartment/house.  The living situation
    was very difficult for both of us and just before Christmas my daughter 
    returned to the house with my understanding and approval.   I have
    maintained weekend visitation with my son and am active in his sports
    aactivities.  I am documenting my continuing parental relationship 
    with my children.  Currently I have motions coming up which will
    improve my financial situation (my wife's also) and am asking for
    Family court mediation services to help resolve custody issues.  I am 
    seeking joint physical custody.  If she won't agree to that I would
    seek sole custody.  I have just rented a house and will be moving 
    next week.  Does anyone have any advice or suggestions?
      
    Richard
    

    re Richard
    
    Can't think of much right now.  Looks like you have a good plan
    and are stiching to it.  The only thing I wonder about is why
    you are continuing to provide 100% support for your ex.  I've
    seen a *lot* of men get screwed over by trying to "maybe if I'm
    a nice guy she'll see it and change her mind".  You may have to
    put up with it, but you don't have to finance it ( at least 100% of
    it anyway).
    
    fred();

    reply -1
    
    	I continue to pay all the bills because my wife is unemployed.
    During our marriage she was a homemaker with occasional part-time
    employment.  I do feel I have a good plan but at the same time I 
    	realize the system and the courts frown on joint physical custody
    unless both parents agree on it.  Fighting for sole custody is also
    an uphill battle.  Am I right? or have I heard too much of the negative
    side?
    
    Richard 

    Depends upon how the home situation is. As in is the ex doing LSD-25
    in front of the children? Doing live sex acts with her beau and other
    lower life forms of animal and plant life? In front of the children?
    Is she abusive? Does she deal drugs? Has she hit the children, hit you?
    Has she attempted suside? Does she exibit an unstable life?

	I'm currently involved in a battle with my ex wife who is fighting for 
joint legal custody and it looks as though she is going to get her way.

	The way she did this was by institing that we use a GL. The modern
train of thought appears to be that joint parenting is the only way to go unless
one parent or the other doesn't want it or someone can be proven an unfit 
parent.

	Downside to this is that it appears to me that things are twisted. My
Ex has been given vistation 5 nights out of 14 for this it seems that she is
going to be let off the hook finaicaily. As it currently stands she only 
needs to provide me with half of the unrembursed medical expenses for the kids.

	I don't see anything fair about this not only that but this gaurdin is 
running my life and my kids lives. My wife is now in a position to not allow 
me to send my kids to camp and appears to be able to do this against there 
wishes. I have been order to have my live in child care move out from my 
house or my kids will have to go live with there mom against there wishes.
This whole thing stinks. My lawyer says it will cost me 10 to 20 K to fight the
recommendation made by this GL. I would not recommend Francis Goldfield.

	Since you are the father in this case it may not work out quit as nicely
as it may for my wife but you should atleast insist on a GL being appointed. If
you could find one that was not titled you may be able to win more that just
joint custody.......

	You have nothing to loose as long as you are a fit parent.

	My EX left the house 6 months ago and has given me a cent since.

	She is be granted Joint Custody and I'm still custodial parent.

	I feel as though I'm getting the shaft because I'm not a Women.

	If my kids weren't so important to me I'ld would be better off
just letting her have the responsiblity. 

    re -1  What is a GL? 

Hello,

Not much to report here so far. Things are progressing slowly but am starting to
see that joint custody will be out of the question. My ex-spousal unit is
putting up a brick wall which more or less says, it's all or nothing battle.

My son who is now 7�, has been to see a child psychologist and has made a
preference to be with his dad and thus gives me something to work with. The
psychologist states she will go to court only and only if my son has his own
lawyer. This is because her interests are with what is good for my son and
understands the bitterness my ex-spousal unit has towards me. She wishes not to
get stuck in between the two parents.

The psychologist does not recommend dragging this into the courts which would
not be in my son's best interest. We know my ex will fight tooth and nail to
keep custody, even though she has been told to think more of his needs and what
is in his best interest. It has become very clear that this has gone in one
ear and out the other.

So it is coming down to two choices, 1) quit pursuing this further, because my
son will need his own lawyer, thus dragging him into the conflict directly. 2)
continue and look for another way to achieve his preference.

Any thoughts?

John

    Are you sure that your son having his own lawyer requires that he get
    directly involved???  This really sounds like a job for a gaurdian 
    ad-litem but I could be wrong...  Either way, I would have thought that
    the lawyer would work with the psychologist on protecting the child's
    best interests...  But I fully admit that I don't know much about all
    of this.
    
    However, I strongly urge you to go forward with trying to get custody
    one way or another if you really believe that your son should be with
    you.  If you don't I think you may live to regret it, especially if
    things with your ex aren't especially cooperative.
    
    Best of Luck!!!
    
    Lesa

re: .15,

Actually, you are correct, the child talks to the psychologist, the the
psychologist to the lawyer, then the lawyer to the court.


Anyways, still working .......

John

Well it has been a long time since I last looked into these notes, busy, busy,
busy...

Project TOTS......the story continues,

Well, my son has made it very clear what he wants, no one wants to listen or
seems to care what he wants except for my self. My son has made it clear that he
wants to be with dad, but mom is kicking up a major stink. It's down to the
wire and I am too broke to battle any further.

My son asked me what the psychologist meant by 'I see what I can do' when he
spoke to her last round. This was in reference to him trying to at least get
more time with dad. I have made a couple of offers to take my son for the entire
summer, half the summer and every weekend which all fell on deaf ears with mom.

My reply was that 'she would try and see what could be done for you' and that
is all she can do. He has asked me why he cannot be with me more often, I
replied, because it is up to your mother to allow me to have you more often.
What else could I say but the way it really is. So my son said he will come
right out and ask mom for more time. He also asked me to write a note off to the
psychologist and explain the situation as it is. I said I would do that at least
for him knowing it is not going to do much good at this point.

I am too broke and the lawyer no longer wants to do anything because they have
already sucked me dry. I have a document which outlines clear and concise access
and the ex refuses to sign it after wasting my time, if not my lawyer's time. So
what else can I do other than go to court on my accord and hope to get something
after all the time and expense.

As a result of all this, I sat back and thought about the whole mess. So I wrote
a quick note to the ex which simply stated the following.

If the divorce is going to go through, one of the following must occur (keep in
mind I have a counter petition filed blocking the divorce).

1) My son is in my custody
2) My son leaves your care and is on his own
3) You begin to bargain in good faith and we have a signed access document
4) You take me to court to get the divorce granted

At this point the onus is on the ex to do something considering she is trying
to tie the knot with her SO. I may not be holding all the ace cards, but one is
better than none at all.

At this point, if I was to force the issue, I must go to court, but I just cannot
afford that right now nor do I understand what I need to do to get before the
judge to plead my son's and my case.

If you cannot get legal aide or afford a lawyer, the system leaves you hanging
high an dry. The only other thing I can do is learn how to take this into the
system on my own. Well that is pretty much where it stands unfortunately. Maybe
someone has another idea to grease the seized wheel?

    How about being locked out of a law library? One that is open after
    hours like the one in Franklin Pierce Law in Concord New Hampshire?
    The only other way to get into the stacks is to take time off from
    work to do it. Many town libraries do cannot afford to front the cost
    of these books because of the cost. Or there is very little input
    from the locals. 

    So the last source is the state library in Concord New Hampshire. And
    they close at 4 pm. Scary isn't. 

    
    re law library.
    
    What about Colleges or Universities in the area.  Most will give
    you access to the library for little or no fee.
    
    If you are going Pro Se (representing yourself).  One of the first
    things you want to read is the Code of Judicial Conduct (Should
    be part of the State Statutes).  You'll find it very interesting
    reading.  On second thought, you should read it even if you don't
    go Pro Se.
    
    fred();

    Unless the law libary is sponsered by the local attornies, who know
    that your using the libiary. :) As in, lets stop giving bullets and
    guns to those who will shoot us with it!:)
    
    Fred, this is like saying, that you recieved a fair and just divorce
    without having to work as hard as you have.:)

Well it is a thought and worth looking at. I have also discovered a bunch of
people call paralegals who will help you defend your self for a small fee. That
too may be worth looking into. Much of the stuff in the notes file is very U.S.
related except the issues which know no borders.

Anyway, keep looking and hoping.

John

    .....Paralegals know how to code it. They don't have clue about
    fighting the fight. They might not be able to tell you who the judge
    usually leans towards in the game. Under what conditions do you win,
    loose, or draw.