Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    re .6
    
	>(aided and abetted by some women) have abdicated their role 
        >as heads of the household and as
    
    	This may well be the understatemnt of the year.
    
        fred();

It was the statement that divorce is just a legal form of child abuse that
got me.  Divorce isn't wonderful for anybody involved (understatement !) - 
children or adults,but is a rotten marriage and resulting dysfunctional 
family unit any better ?

Leslie

    re .9
    
>Divorce isn't wonderful for anybody involved (understatement !) - 
>children or adults,but is a rotten marriage and resulting dysfunctional 
>family unit any better ?
    
    I believe that this has become the cop-out of the century.  Divorce
    has become the "quick and easy" way to solve marital problems.  There
    is little or no motivation (especially for the female) to really
    *work* on the really *tough* issues of marriage rather than just
    cutting and running at the first sign of trouble.
    
    No! I'm to saying that someone should stay in a really rotten
    situation,  but I beleive that if here was more motivation to 
    really *work* on problems that at *lot* of the divorces (and 
    corresponding b.s. for *all* concerned ) could be avoided.
    
    fred();

    Fred, why do you say "especially for the female"?
    
    I don't understand why it's any easier/more likely for a woman than for
    a man to instigate a divorce.  And I'd _guess_ they each do it about
    50% of the time.
    
    Karen

    Yes, Fred, I too would like to know what you meant.
    
    Karen

    re -1,-2
    
    It is easier for a woman to instigate a divorce.  I don't have the
    exact figures, but form memory somethingl like 79% of the divorces
    are filed by women.
    
    If a man is thinking about divorce.  He must consider that he is
    likely going to loose his chidren ( or a major part of their lives ),
    nearly everything he has worked for in his life up to that point 
    (or at least half of it, usually most of it in practice ), and probably
    something like 1/2 of his take-home pay until the kids are out of
    college.
    
    The female is likely to keep the kids, most of the property and 
    "child support"/alimony.  Regardless of past abuses of failure
    to pay child support, that is rapidly becomming *illegal* (Current
    Congressional action will make non payment of child support a 
    Federal offense).  So the up-front *appearance* (usually find out
    too late that the appearance is deceptive) to the female is that
    the only thing she is going to loose is "that &^%$#@".  And will
    gain the "glories" (again appearances can be deceptive) of "women's
    liberation".
    
    fred();

Hi Fred,

Actually, I didn't say one thing about whether or not people too often
opted out of a situation instead of working at it, but in most cases
that I know where a couple has gotten divorced, they have become enemies
long before the actual seperation and divorce.  What was a family and a
marriage has turned into a battlefield.  If people simply do not divorce,
but just keep fighting battles without calling a truce, work out a peace
accord, and become friends, companions, and lovers again then my guess is 
that the battlefield is just as much "child abuse" as divorce.

Working on a marriage - maintaining, sustaining, and nurturing it takes
both partners - 100% involvement and commitment.  If one partner becomes
apathatic or destructive, no matter what the other does it will not be
healthy marriage relationship.  I don't think it is that people don't 
try hard enough, I think it is that people are SELFISH.  (generalizing 
big time here - I don't mean everybody, I mean our society, culture, whatever 
you want to call it, - prevailing attitudes maybe) 

Finally, I don't think the blame is one with one gender or the other.  Even
if statistics show that more women initiate divorce proceedings than do men
that does not say anything about hard either one worked at reconciling and
healing their relationship.  Sometimes the person who initiated the divorce
proceedings may have cared more about trying to make the marriage good and
strong and healthy, but the other person just didn't give a hoot and didn't
care what state the relationship was in.  Other times the one who left may
not have cared one bit or gave up tring ...

A failed marriage is sad and very hurtful for all involved - spouses, children, 
extended family, even friends.  But is it child abuse ?

Leslie

    re .14
    
    I realize that there are times when things just *can't* be worked
    out.  I subjected myself to 8 years of hell trying to keep my
    marriage together long after it probably should have failed.  I
    stayed because I couldn't justify abandoning my children to her
    "tender care".  If she hadn't filed, I may still be there.  It took
    me two years after the divorce to figure out what happened.  It took
    me 8 1/2 years to get the kids out of the hell they were living
    in and give them a decent home.
    
>A failed marriage is sad and very hurtful for all involved - spouses, children, 
>extended family, even friends.  But is it child abuse ?
    
    Everyting I have read about children and divorce has stated that
    divorce has a *very* profound and *very* negative impact one children.
    They tend to blame themselves for the loss of at least on parent.
    They blame themselves and think, "I must have done something wrong
    to cause all of this".  Because the parents can/will no longer deal 
    directly with one another,the kids get caught in the middle as 
    go-betweens.  Usually divorce does not stop the fighting.  Often,
    if anything, the bitterness intensifies.
    
    I don't know how many times I've had both men and women tell me,
    "If I'd only known how much #$%@&!!! divorce was going to cause,
    I'd have tried a lot harder to work out the problems of the marriage".
    
    In the case of my kids, the care she took of them was definately 
    child abuse.  It took me 8 1/2 years to get the courts to listen to
    my evidencde.  The doctors atributed most of my oldest son's problems
    to the divorce and the brainwashing she gave him afterwards.  He and
    I will likely never recover our relationship.
    
    fred();

    Fred,
    
    Having done divorce work for several years, I can tell you that in
    many, if not most cases, there is little correlation between who files
    and who instigated the break-up of the marriage.  Very often women end
    up filing to protect their rights, not because they want the divorce
    more than the man.  In fact, a number of them didn't really want the
    divorce when they came to see me initially but had husbands who had
    left to live with other women; were stripping the joint accounts;
    paying no support etc., etc.  Only after becoming convinced that there
    really was no hope did they file.  In other cases the couple agrees
    that one or the other will file because they've already agreed to the
    divorce.
    
    I know that your reality is that you lost a great deal through divorce. 
    But, most women do not gain through divorce.  Being a single custodial
    parent beats not having the children with you but it is far from easy.
    Most divorced women do not gain financially -- in fact their standard
    of living drops.  
    
    I believe that in the majority of cases, by the time the decision is
    made to file for divorce, the problems in the marriage have reached a
    point where "working at it" is no longer an option.  Perhaps, it would
    have been an option years or months before, but there is a point when
    it is just plain too late.
    
    I just don't buy the divorce is an easy way out arguement.  There
    is nothing easy about it for anyone concerned.
    
    Polly   

    re .9
    
    >I just don't buy the divorce is an easy way out arguement.  There
    >is nothing easy about it for anyone concerned.
    
    	That's why I included "(appearences can often be misleading)"
    	in my argument.
    
    Using the excuse "It will be better for the kids because the fighting
    will stop" is also self-delusion.  Unless one parent "disappears" or
    *both* parents are *extremely* mature, if anything, the b.s. gets
    worse on an exponential magnatude with the kids caught right in the
    middle.  So long as the children are living at home, contact and
    dealings with the "ex" will not end with divorce.
    
    Personal Experience:
    
    After 11 years and I don't know how many court battles, Friday 2/7, I
    get to go back for *yet another* round in the court.  She's asking
    for change in child support, to have the previous child support order
    nullified, and for change in he visitation orders.  I am asking that
    she be held in contempt for not paying child support.  This will be
    her fourth fall on contempt and I doubt if the judge is going to be
    happy with her.  I am making a conscious, extremely hard, effort
    to keep the kids out ot it.  Even to the point of keeping all 
    conversation with my wife about the subject away from the kids, but
    they know *something* is going on. 
    
    fred();