Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Unless there is a *good* reason to deny the child access to his other
    parent, I strongly urge you not to do that.  Even if you move out of
    state the child has a right to "visitation" and access to the other
    parent.  I would suggest, rather, that you and your ex find a way
    to deal with each other reasonably.
    fred();

		Talk with your lawyer. First, most recent divorces have
	wording about moving away. It can even be kidnapping. Also,
	whatever the ex is doing that bothers you can probably be dealt
	with in more appropriate ways. Just blaming the ex adn running
	away would probably create far mroe problems than it would solve.
	Get ehlp from your lawyer and/or counselor, this "fix" is too
	dangerous to you and your child.

   I agree with Fred.  You need to look at ways of dealing with
the harassment other than moving away.  My best "weapon" against
my ex is to act nice towards her even though we are in the midst
of a custody battle.  When your ex sees that he is not "pushing
your buttons" anymore, he will no longer be getting any enjoyment
harassing you and may stop. If that fails, explore joint counseling
options.  Last of all explore your legal options. 

I am on the other side of the fence.  My daughter was taken from
me a year ago through fraudulent means.  Now the ex is finding
herself faced with "harrassment" that could go on for a number of
years.  She is finding herself faced with a renewed custody battle
and I am currently contemplating filing two civil suits against her
that could result in her receiving monetary judgements against her.  
If the justice system fails me, I might just move down to Florida
and she'll once again have to put up with me.  This is not to say
that I'm harassing her.  It simply means that I'm commited to being
a part of my daughter's life.  Don't underestimate your ex's resolve
to do the same. So, be sure to talk with your lawyer first. If there
is no good reason for your move, the ex may believe it is a deliberate
effort to thwart his visitation and may initiate legal action against you.

Remember also, you are the one that will be causing the travel
related problems and could end up being the person who has to deal
with those problems.  I've had some success with this issue.  Airfare
and time off from work without pay adds up real fast.

Most of all, think of the effect on the child.  Taking the child
away from his/her dad will have a negative effect on him/her.  There
is a significant difference between the way Jen used to act and the way
she acts now.  The first few days that she is here, she won't let
me out of her sight.  I keep in contact with Jen every week by
phone and we send each other mail.  In each conversation, she is
assured that she will get to see her dad and the rest of her family
soon.  I am also careful to let her know that we will always remain
in contact with each other.  It still doesn't help.  The last day or
two of her visit is always filled with her tears and pleadings to be
allowed to stay in NH with me.


Regards,
Gary
                                                         

    My problem is that the visitations for my ex is that he has to go to
    his mothers house every other Sunday to visit with his son.  My ex
    always has a good reason for not being there.  Every other Sunday Adrew
    goes to his grandparents and his bio. father never shows.  That to me
    is rejection in a major way.  Besides my ex is into drugs and other
    sorted things and does not work so there for I get no support.  The
    only family that I have out here is my father there is no other family.
    So by moving closer to my family then I can have family support for
    myself and my son.  Another things is that I will be able to sleep at
    night, because I wont have to worry about my ex following through on
    his threats.  Right now I have to dead bolts on both doors and my son
    has been sleeping in my room because his room is to far away from me so
    I cant here anything in his room.  I cant even go to the store without
    having to look over my shoulder.
    
    I dont understand how I or my son would benefit from having my ex in
    our lives.
    
    My son does not even know who his bio. father is.  I will show him a
    picture and ask him to tell me who the people are and he says eveybody
    but my ex.  He know my ex's parents and calls them grandma and grandpa
    but I will point to my ex and say who is this and my son just looks at
    me and say dont know.
    
    Della  

    
    re .5
    
    >My problem is that the visitations for my ex is that he has to go to
    >his mothers house every other Sunday to visit with his son.  My ex
    >always has a good reason for not being there.  Every other Sunday Adrew
    
    That however is *his* decision.  It is not up to you to take that
    decision away.
    
    >Besides my ex is into drugs and other
    >sorted things and does not work so there for I get no support.  The
    
    This is the reason, I assume for the supervised visitation.  However,
    the first thing a judge will tell you is that support and visitation
    are separate issues.  If you are not getting support, then avail
    youself of the several means of collecting it.
    
    >Another things is that I will be able to sleep at
    >night, because I wont have to worry about my ex following through on
    >his threats.  Right now I have to dead bolts on both doors and my son
    
    There is nothing to prevent him from following you to the new state.
    Better to learn to defend yourself and be prepared to use it if
    necessary.
    
    >My son does not even know who his bio. father is.  
    
    He does, however, have the right to learn.  If his "bio. father" *is* a
    skunk, he has a right to learn that for himself.
    
    fred();

    
    
    
    Thank you for all of your input, but what I real wanted was someone to
    let me know how they went about moving out of Mass.  and what they
    incountered.  Not someone telling me not to do what I want to do and I
    have every right to do.  When my ex is a wife beating jerk and a drugy
    and a drunk.  I will not subject my son to that kind of life.  When the
    man wont even go collect unemployement because then I would get some
    kind of support.
    
    
    Re: .6  
    
    I have gone to court several times to get support, but you can not get
    support from someone who has no legal money.
    
    I have gotten restraining orders for myself and son and house and they
    just run and I have to go to court again.
    
    So tell me am I suppose to do this for the rest of my life.
    
    I dont like living in fear for my son or myself.
    
    
    Della
    

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-< I did not ask for a lecture!! >-

 Well, to be honest, this is a NCP conference that is mainly made
up of part time parents, parents who see red when they here the "move" word.
 I'm surprised you were given as much help as you did. It speaks very well 
of the people in this conference. 
 
As stated before discuss this with a lawyer, how you can make the move depends
on the wording of your final decree, when you get to the new destination
you can get a TRO there as well if necessary. You are certainly
between a rock and a hard place on this one because if you do end up 
in court you could loose a lot.

 Remember the court will not care if he is a great parent only that
he makes an effort and the child is not at risk in the supervised visit.
 Given that he still gets visits with all the drug and other problems
he has, It looks like he is not apt to give up on his child without a fight.



good luck,
Mick

I don't know the answer to your question Della, but I can sympathise 
with you.  Just because the absence of fathers from children's lives
has proved to be detrimental statistically doesn't mean that the presence 
of an abusive, drug addicted father is beneficial or better than not 
having that _particular_ father present.  Constant fear is a big time 
stress to live with and can do real and lasting harm.  Sometimes individual 
cases differ from the norm.  Sometimes it is a case of the "lesser of two 
evils".

Though I would like to say that for the most part, I really think that the
current legal standards or system are weighted towards short-changing
children's relationships with their fathers and I view this as a negative
situation that needs to be changed.  Motherhood often appears to be viewed
as a right and fatherhood as an optional sort of privilege.  However, 
swinging the pendulam too far the other way and not looking at each case 
individually - ie requiring lives to be lived in fear and hardship so that 
a neglectful, abusive father can have access to his children if he so chooses 
is not the answer.

Leslie

    re .7
    
    If he is *able* to work and pay support, then the court will order
    him to pay support.  If he does not then pay support, his wages
    can be garnished and/or he can be held in contempt of court.
    You may have to go in and ask for contempt charges more than once.
    Sucessive convictions for contempt draw heavier and heavier penalties.
    ie jail time.
    
    Moving from the state may depend on the divorce decree.  If the
    decree states that you cannot move out of the state w/o  the 
    other parents permission, then you will have to negotiate that
    with the ex or via the court.  If the decree says nothing about
    moving out of the state, you can move if your move is for the
    betterment of the child.  ie employment.  If the court determines
    that your primary reason for moving is to deprive the ncp of
    visitation, the court may not be very sympathetic to the move.
    
    If you move out of the state, he can get the visitation changed.
    This may result in *unsupervised* visitation if there has been
    no record of violence or abuse.  Even though you have gotten
    repetative TRO's because you are *afraid* ( I cannot say whether
    your fear is justified or not--nor can the court) and there has
    been no record of violation of the TRO and no record of violence,
    then the court may not be very sympathetic to further TRO's.  
    Maybe not nice, but this gets into stuff like the Bill of Rights.
    
    There is nothing that will prevent him from following you to the
    new state, and the whole #@%^^& starts all over again.
    
    fred()
    

    There has been a record of the abuse.  I have also always brought
    Andrew over to his grandparents house when he was suppose to go.  I
    have always done just what the decree say to do.  I still have a fairly
    good relationship between my ex mother inlaw.  We always set up the
    times and days for Andrew to go over.  It's just my ex never goes.  
    
    I have gone through what my son is going through when I was young.  My
    mother and father spilt up when I was very young and my father rejected
    us.  Well things are different now.  I still remember when my mother
    was going to get remarried and I could tell this man really loved us
    for what we were.  I just dont understand how someone can not want to
    see something that they created and help bring into this world. 
    
    
    
    Della

Hmmmm, I do not disagree with what others have said here, but I some how get the
gut feeling we are not seeing the who picture here. Being in the position that
Della is in could be easier to talk about from our point of views than living
it. Sometimes what may appear to be the right thing is not always the best thing
for Della or the child involved.

For Della, it must be a difficult, if not emotional situation for her to be in
and one point I definitely do not question, moving is not the answer to the
problem. This only postpones the problem Della must deal with. For the time
being, it may be best to face it and come away clean if possible. It may also
means that Della who who must think about what is best for her too and not
just the child.

NCP's in a lot of cases get the major shaft from the CP's, but we must not loose
sight that some NCP's are just bad news. I think Della has made an effort to
make the child available from what I have read and understood here. It would
seem the father does not make a real effort to exercise the visitation
opportunity that has been presented to him.

As it has been put already, <rock><Della and child><hard place>, what is right
and what is wrong depends on the true situation. Unfortunately, the system
fails when tough situations exist like these.

A solution needs to be found, and it will either be legal or counseling, but not
moving out of state. The latter will only create more problems in the long run
for Della moving.

It's not easy sometimes Della to live with the problems at hand, the easy way
out in not always the best way to fix a problem. Sometime it's time that
provides the final and best solution in a bad situation and moving away does
not.

John

    How many of you men, who are so fast to tell Della to stay and face her
    problems, have ever been in the position of having yourself and your
    loved ones (Della and her child) physically threatened in such a way
    that you took the threats seriously enough to get a restraining order?
    
    Spousal abuse/murder is a serious situation.  Too often the women
    involved don't have the wherewithal to do anything meaningful about it. 
    Della appears to, and you sit in your comfortable chairs and tell her
    not to?  Come on, read the newspapers!
    
    As for you and your child, Della, pack up and leave.  Get as far away
    as possible, and build a good life for yourselves.  If the loser ever
    tries to get back into it, make sure he's clean and straight before
    giving him the time of day.
    
    .12 (TROOA::AKERMANIS) started to sound human--"we are not
    seeing the who picture here."  The rest of you are too blinded by your
    own hurt to give good advice.
    
    Karen

    
    Ain't nothing much more disfunctional than a dead mother and a dead
    child, now is there, George?
    
    I'm sorry you and the other men in this conference are hurting.  I
    really am.  There is no sarcasm or ill will there.
    
    But I'm also sorry that women just like Della are killed by their ex's
    and husbands and live-in lovers at astonishing rates.  And too
    frequently it's because of people with the same attitude you expressed
    ("IF Della is telling the truth....).  In fact, there are judges and
    police throughout the country that should hang their heads in shame 
    because they've refused to enforce restraining orders, and the woman
    (and sometimes children) end up dead.  Like I said, George, READ THE
    NEWSPAPERS.  I see stories about this EVERY DAY!
    
    Yes, sometimes women lie.  And ALWAYS in this conference, we are
    hearing only one side of the story--and that includes your story and my
    story.  You expected us to believe you and support you, didn't you? 
    Why, then, can't you grant Della the courtesy of saying, "If you're
    telling the truth, save yourself and your baby"?
    
    Let's face it, some men ARE dangerous.  Some women ARE dangerous.  Some
    children MUST be removed from one or both parents to live long enough
    to grow up.
    
    I gotta go to a meeting....see you later.
    Karen
    

     Re last few.
    
    What I'm trying to tell Della is regardless of who's telling the truth
    here that her moving out of the state may well be illegal and can end
    up causing more problems than it is worth.  If he dosn't have any ties
    keeping him where he is, there is nothing to stop him from just
    following her, or he can go in and get visitation changed so that 
    Della may have to foot the bill for travel for the child to travel
    back to *unsupervised* visitation.  
    
    The man does have a right to innocent until proven guilty.   In any 
    case I have a problem about the morality ( and legality ) of leaving 
    the state for the express purpose of depriving the child and his father 
    and grandparents visitation rights.
    
    fred();

   > Geeze Karen...you have throwen him into the streets, taken away 
   > his dignity, treated him like an animal. What do you want?

   George, I'll presume you're speaking metaphorically here, since I've
   never personally thrown anyone into the streets nor taken away anyone's
   dignity nor treated anyone like an animal.

   And no, I'm not trying to discourage you from noting.  I'm just trying
   to introduce some reason (from my perspective) into what was becoming 
   (in my perspective) a lop-sided response to Della's very real hurt. 

   My point was, and is, that there are two sides to every question, and
   the mass advice to Della to stay and fight was just so unresponsive to
   the very real problems she was expressing (an ex who is making no attempt
   to see his child, is not providing any support, and is threatening her).

   Agreed--some of the responders here have been personally hurt by ex-
   wives.  That doesn't mean all ex-husbands are lily pure and all ex-wives
   are lower than dirt.  Nor does it mean that Della should endanger her
   self or her child by staying within reach of a threatening man.  Should
   any harm come to her or to her child, the men here who are hurting won't
   be hurting any less.  There's no reason to punish her and her child for 
   the sins of your wife.

   And I hope, George, and you and others here don't think that, just
   because I support an opinion that differs from yours, I'm attacking you.
   I'm just disagreeing with you.  Likewise, I hope that you and others
   here won't attack me just because I support an opinion that differs from
   yours.  Surely there's room in this conference for discussions and
   differences of opinion?

    Re. .17 (CSC32::HADDOCK), yes, her moving out of the state may well 
    be illegal, and it's that kind of information I believe she came to
    this file for.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong, Della.)  Of course, it
    also may be quite legal, depending on the wording of her divorce decree
    and her reasons for moving.  From reading her notes, I don't see her
    reasons being just to deprive her ex of visitation.  Her reasons, as I
    read them, are to protect herself and her child from his threats. I'd
    suspect that most courts would be cooperative with that
    reason--PRESUMING it is supported--and might even help to shield her
    location from her ex.  But then I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on
    TV.
    
    Re. running away never fixes anything: I disagree.  It depends entirely
    on what you're running away from.  Running away from yourself never
    fixes anything.  Running away from abusive situations CAN fix a lot, if
    the runee is willing to get counseling or otherwise probe into what it
    is in her personality and/or actions that attracted her to the fellow
    in the first place so that she learns to avoid his type in the future.
    
   Karen

Boy, one hides in the wood work for a couple days and all hell breaks loose
here.

George, we assume that Della is in a real bad situation here, NCP's are not the
only one's to have nasty problems. Though I still think moving may not be the
answer, it is still a real choice for Della. If her NCP EX is really bad news
as she states, it may be the best thing for Della and child.

As Fred has pointed out, dependant upon Della's EX, he could just as easily move
around and follow her until this is resolved one way or another. This is
something Della has a closer handle on, but legal advice should be sought first
before taking action. Knowing your rights and options are your best friends when
the other party is baaaaad news.

John

    
    
    
    George,
    
    I have talked to you off line.  I know a little about your situation.
    Well when I first started writing in this notes conference you were all 
    for getting my ex and seeing that the right thing was done.  Well it 
    seems that you are completely different off line then you are in this 
    notes conference. 
    
    I ALSO DONT LIE.  Do you want to see the the police reports about the
    abuse or the police reports about the acholism or the police reports
    about when they put him into protective custody because he was a threat
    to himself, his son, and myself, do you want to see the police report
    for when he shot off and illegal gun in the house and just missed the
    man down stairs.
    
    RE: .17
    
    I belive in by base note, I asked how to go about moving out of state. 
    That to me implies that I want to do the right thing (legal).  I have
    no intensions of just up and running.  I faced the problems in court
    and out of court in councelling and now I dont know what to do.  If I
    move close to my family and he follows me at least I will have some
    support.  Everybody needs support (even NCP's).
    
    Did I or did I not say that I have always brought my son over to his
    grandmothers house every time I was suppose to.  I believe I also said
    that I still had a fairly decent relationship with my ex mother in law.
    
    Just one more thing to say.  I am NOT against NCP's I thought that
    there might be a little support here or someone that has gone threw
    this "problem" before and might have some advise for me I guess I was
    wrong.  I did not feel this belonged in the womens notes file.  Well
    thank you for all of the non support and all the bashing of decent cp
    (mothers).  I am truely sorry for all of you that have these fellings
    because you are so full of hate that I dont think I would ever want to
    be like you.  
    
    I WAS TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR MY SON.  IS THAT OR IS THAT NOT
    WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO FOR YOU DAUGHTER.  (george)
    
    Dont worry I wont be back in your closed notes file.
    
    
    Della 

		I think things haven't gotten way out of hand, with
	blaming and name calling. Reality can be a very difficult thing
	to determine. Whether a fear is justified or not can not be determined
	here. We can not asses the situation here. I'm sorry for what 
	has transpired here.  My inout was simply to get help addressing
	these decisions, especially legal so that a bad situation doesn't
	get worse. Talk to a lawyer so that you at least cover yourself as
	much as possible. You asked for guidance, and my suggestion is to 
	to ask a  kawyer for guidance on what to do from a legal standpoint
	to leave you in the best legal position, and to a counselor to help
	with the emotional issues, especially for the child. Real advice
	for your questions can only come form people familiar with your
	situation yet emotionally detached from it.

I for one, am sorry how things transpired here and feel Della has been given a
bad impression of who and what we are.

I am and will always be a supporter of not only NCP rights, but rights of the CP
too. Many of us, including my self, have been through costly battles to get what
we should had rightfully from the start. We all may get very biased by our own
experiences and distrust CP's motives when we have one who has come to us for
help. In Della's case, the words 'move out of state' was used and the fires
ignited and hence we are where we are now.

In our world, NCP's and CP's have good guys/gals and bad ones. In Della's case,
the NCP sounds like he's on the path of self destruction and bad news.

I for one, hope that Della returns so that we may all learn something new and see
that other side of the fence for a change. In any case it's our loss if she
never returns to NCP notes. If you are still looking Della, I wish you luck and
success in your quest.

John

    John,
    
    Well said.
    
    Karen

re: .25,

Thanks,

John