Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

Do your ex have custody?  I have found that if you want something done fast
and want to make sure you catch him in the act.  Call the police!  They will
have a lot more clot with DSS than you call them directly.  I had a room mate
that left her newborn in the house without telling he was there,  I woke up
and felt someone else in the house and started looking.  After a go around
with DSS I found that if I had called the police, they would have taken the
child and she would have had to fight to get him.  This way it was my word
against hers. 

-darryl

    Terza,
    
    Seven or even nine is too young to be leaving children unattended,
    especially in charge of an infant.  If some emergencry happens, the
    children probably would not know what to do. You are correct.  
    
    You probably should call Social Services and ask to talk to someone
    about Social Service's view about what is going on.  Depends on what
    your goal is here.  Social Services will probably send someone out to
    investigate if they think there is good cause to believe that this is
    happening.  They will lay down the law on the ex and tell them that this
    is not a good thing to be doing.  If Social Services does catch them in
    the act SS will take the children into custody.
    
    There was an incident in the ecommunity in which I live not long ago
    where a woman left her children unattended in the car while she went
    into the store.  Someon saw the children and called SS.  SS came and
    took the chidren into custody and the woman went throught fourty-seven
    levels of &^%$ getting them back.
    
    fred();

   Hi Darryl, Fred,

   Calling the police is very probably a good idea.  I've not had good luck
   with DSS in the past.  They have three incidents of violence (by my ex
   towards my son) on record (and none of those calls were made by me --
   they were made by school and health officials) and they never did
   anything but talk to my ex. 

   Well, actually, they did take Mark into protective custody when his arm
   was broken in December 1989.  They put him into my custody for all of
   three days.  They refused to put my daughter in my custody because "there
   was no history or indication that any inappropriate behavior was
   displayed toward her and she was not in any immediate danger."  Since it
   was my son's word against his father's, and they couldn't prove anything,
   it was dropped.  The good part (if anything good could be said about
   this) is that he ceased any physical discipline against my children.

   I know from previous experience with my ex, that half measures are
   useless.  That's why I haven't yet called DSS.  I did call the school
   counselor this morning, though.  She's currently seeing Mark once a week
   because of his aggressive behavior and dropping grades at school.  (Mark
   is currently enrolled in the Gifted and Talented program and probably
   could be in the next grade, but he has social and emotional problems.  I
   wonder why??)  The counselor hasn't called me back yet.

   My son still soils his pants and engages in various other inappropriate
   behaviors.  He's nine years old!  My ex just says that Mark is a complex
   kid.  Yow!  I could probably go on and on about this.

   I'm currently considering a strategy to "force" my ex into getting Mark
   into professional counseling.  I know that it's a family problem that
   shows its symptoms through Mark, but my ex would never consider
   counseling ("it's only for crazy people" he says), but at least Mark
   could get help.


   							Terza

    Terza,
    
    If this is all in Colorado, one of the reasons that can be used for
    a change of custondy is "impairment of emotional development".  If
    you son is indeed exibiting these behaviors, I'd say his emotional
    development is indeed impaired.  If you can document this and the
    suspected physical abuse in court, hopefully along with "expert
    withness" backup, I'd say your chances for getting a change of custody
    would be pretty good.
    
    fred();

    re:.3  (Terza)
    
    In reference to your getting councelling for your son, I would
    recommend doing just that,inspite of what the ex says. I approached my
    ex back in February of 1989 because my son was having a hard time with
    our break up. My EX said NO to me also, even after several attempts and
    some kind talking on my part. Finally, I took the councelling issue
    and two others to court. MY son started going to councilling soon after
    and he still goes today. FWIW, I went also, and I'm not the one who
    ended it all. Today, I deal with visitation denies, neglect, leaving my
    son alone (2 sons- 9,6) etc. etc,. I pay my support, even though it's
    more then I feel is right. I know it doesn't go to/for them... I pushed
    the councelling all the way into court. It was court ordered (In
    writing) and there is nothing (unless contempt) to prevent her. 
    I also have called DSS. I have gotten NO where with them. I have 4
    cases of neglect and abuse on file with DSS. They did nothing then and
    I don't think they will, (BUT, I will). When I have gone to the Police,
    they tell me there's nothing they can do.
    
    Good Luck..
    
    Doug

Does your son trust you?  Do you trust him?  If you could get him to call you
when he has been left alone then you could in turn call the police.  There
is something big time going on with these kids.  It sounds like more than
just being left alone.  What state are they in?  I really feel for you but
it sounds like that you may have the key to get something down.  At least
there is something that you can prove.  Maybe you should talk to your lawyer
and find out what he thinks you should do.  It is so sad that by the time
that our great legal system will do anything to protect childred they have
been scared for life.  They just got to be a better way.

-darryl

   Hoo boy.  I have been down this path (or one just like it) before.  I
   have tried several times for custody only to give up in disgust and lack
   of funds.  I'm still paying my lawyer for the last time (when Mark's arm
   was broken).

   I know that I can address the *symptom* of leaving my children with the
   baby.  I can confront my ex on the phone and in writing and I can put
   pressure on him through the school and DSS.  He would never admit to
   anything wrong or inappropriate, but he would yield to pressure or be
   more clever at disguising it.

   I don't believe this is enough.  I would dearly love custody of our
   children, with him having the same visitation that I've had.  The
   question is, is it worth the hassle it's going to take to get it done,
   when I know there is absolutely no guarantee that I will accomplish
   anything more than making an even bigger mess?

   Is there really such a thing as emotional abuse in the eyes of the law? 
   And, will they do anything about it?  What is my legal recourse, really?

   It's not just me who has anything to lose, it's my children.  They have
   to live with him while mom is stirring up the hornets' nest.

   I would really appreciate input.


   							Terza


   P.S.-I think my ex secretly loves stuff like this.  It makes him feel
   important somehow.  And I hate being the one to feed it.

    Terza,
    
    In Colorado, custody can be changed for 3 reasons.  
         1) child has been living with you for > 6 mo. with the
            cp's permission.
    	 2) child is in physical danger.
    	 3) The emotional developement of the child is impaired.
    
    entry 62.21 lists those reasons and the judges comments in the
    order to change custody for my daughter.
    
    You have to really have your DOCUMENTATION together to *prove* any
    of these.  In my case, my daughter took the stand and fired a whole
    salvo of torpedoes into her.  Every time you know of the children
    being left unattended CALL THE POLICE.  Every time you see your 
    children, as discreetly as possible (and I'd not mention to the 
    children why because if it gets back to your ex, he'll be looking 
    out for it) check the chidren for physical marks that would indicate
    physical abuse.  If there are any marks that indicate abuse CALL THE 
    POLICE, and again--DOCUMENT, DOCUMEMT, DOCUMENT *EVERYTHING* that 
    happens for the possibility of that being evidence in court.
    
    Whatever you do--don't give up.
    fred();

>   Hoo boy.  I have been down this path (or one just like it) before.  I
>   have tried several times for custody only to give up in disgust and lack
>   of funds.  I'm still paying my lawyer for the last time (when Mark's arm
>   was broken).

I can relate to that.  Everytime I even think about go for custody I want
to run and hide.  I would try the police route first, but I think you should
be ready to seigh(sp) the chance if it happen.

Good luck!
-darryl

    Another thought.
    
    Have you talked to your son's teacher.  If your son has been
    demonstrating any abnormal behavior in school, maybe the school
    counselor would recommend psychiatric evaluation/counseling.
    If your ex ignores their "recommendation" that could be one more
    nail in his coffin (so to speak).  If he does go to counseling,
    if the counseling does turn up "empairment of emotional development",
    (ie if your son is not emotionally and psycologically developed to his
    age, and if he is still doing things like mess his pants, this is a good
    bet) then the psychiatrist and his records can be sopenaed into court.
    
    If not, then at least your ex will know that you are watching and may
    not stop what he is doing but at least will think twice about it.
    fred();

   Thank you for the information.  I have been documenting and I will
   continue to document anything I hear or observe.

   That's an excellent suggestion about the teachers.  In fact, it was my
   son's teacher who asked me if it was all right for Mark to start seeing
   the school counselor.  Asking the counselor to recommend a professional
   evaluation is a great idea.

   It will be harder for my ex to fight "me" if it is initiated by an
   outside agency such as a school or even DSS.  Seriously, once I start
   something like this, he will focus all his energy on me, his "sworn"
   enemy, and the children will be "lost" again.


   							Terza

   P.S.-A definite point in my favor is my experience with my ex's tactics. 
   He will make personal attacks at the first person to initiate any sort of
   trouble.  That won't work on me anymore.

   Besides, he'll be digging his own grave on this one...

    RE: .11
    Terza...
    
    I really empathize with you... as do many in this conference.  I'm glad
    to hear you are documenting... Fred has probably pushed that single
    point more than anyone else here, and still it can't be emphasized
    enough.  Even things which seem trivial can loom into larger proportion
    when a judge or court sees it in its context.
    
    I also know full well what you mean when you said your ex will take you
    to task... as you are his sworn enemy.  
    
    My ex-wife feels that way about me (and to a lesser extent, I feel that
    way about her, but since *I* don't have custody, it's impossible for me
    to "use" the children against her, if I were so inclined).  It's
    tragic, what parents do to their children when they are embroiled in
    battle with each other.  They rationalize every move, every action, and
    never, it seems, see the damage they are doing to the kids... just so
    long as they can GET TO THE OTHER parent!
    
    
    TAke care, Terza... do what is right.  for you, and for your children.
    
    tony

    
    I don't believe that you ever really *loose*.  For years the only
    thing that kept me going was the belief that "at least some day
    my kids would know that I cared enought to keep trying".  I guranantee
    that that is the very least you can accomplish, and indeed someday
    that will be a real biggie.  The second least thing you will accomplish
    is that the ex will know that you are watching.  The first time I went
    for change of custody I did not "win" but a bunch of the bs that she
    was pulling ( like moving and changing the kid's school five times
    in one year ) came to a screaching halt.  Some of her behavior
    didn't stop, but at least it slowed down.  So hang in there.  You
    are not defeated until you quit trying.  Then *both* you *and* the
    kids truely loose.
    
    fred();

    Fred,
    You couldn't have said it better.  Terza if the kids ever come back to
    you and claim you didn't care, well, you will have all the
    documentation to show them.  It may feel like losing now, but I agree
    with Fred in the long *you* will win.  
    
    Keep up the fight Terza and know that you have lots of people here who
    are cheering you on.
    
    Karen

   Well, I have an appointment with the school counselor tomorrow.

   I hadn't told her about Mark still soiling his pants, toilet seat, etc. 
   I hadn't told her because I felt ashamed about it and I hoped that the
   things I tried in my home would help.  Well, they haven't, not that I can
   see, anyway.  I was also afraid of Mark getting the permanent label of
   "emotionally disturbed."

   I did my best on my own.  I have talked to his father about this
   particular problem and his response was that it was my fault for not
   reminding Mark to use the bathroom!  Well, excuse me, there's no way I'm
   going to tell a nine-year-old when to use the facilities.  Mark is
   clearly crying out for help by acting out this way.  And I'm angry at his
   father for suggesting that it's my fault for not directing each and every
   motion of my son's life.  Whoa, wait a minute here!

   As you can tell, I have lots of mixed feelings about this.

   But I will see her (the counselor) and lay everything on the table.  Mark
   (and I) need all the help we can get.

   Thanks to eveyone who has replied.  No, I can't give up hope and I won't
   give up trying.  But it's so d*m* hard along the way.

   Thanks for your support!  It truly means a lot!


   							Terza

   P.S.-I'm also dealing with the fact that this morning my fiancee has told
   me that he can't support me emotionally in going for custody.  He is
   unable (his words) to deal with Mark's problems.  It hurts.  I feel "all
   by myself" again.  I'm afraid this relationship may go the way I've seen
   others in this conference go when it comes to doing the right thing for
   your children (and ultimately, for yourself).

    Terza,
    
    You're not alone.  I know what you are going through.  It's very
    difficult emotionally to keep up the fight when you're the parent.
    Let alone when you're a third prarty to the conflict.  You may 
    have to lean on us more for support and leave the fiance out of
    it as much as possible.  You can also take hope and strength in
    that you *know* that what you are doing is right.  Even though
    you are separated from your chidren physically and probably legally,
    they are and always will be your children.  Love isn't always expressed
    in physical contact.  One of the main things that kept me going was
    knowing that *I* was really the only hope my son had of not ending up
    in a mental institution or prision by the time he was 20.  It's still
    debateable whether or not I succeeded, but he can never accuse me of
    not trying.  There was a thing in Reader's Digest about the speed of
    sound being awfully slow because some of the things you say to your
    kids when they're teanagers doesn't get to them until they are in
    their fourties.  But if you don't say it. If you don't try.  It will
    *never* get to them.  If they don't understand or even know how much
    you love them now, someday they will.  The fiance too must understand
    that your chidren *must* come first.  If he can't, then maybe it's
    you that must re-evaluate the relationship.  You *cannot* be forced
    to make a choice between your chidren and someone else.
    
    fred();

re:           <<< NOTE 183.16 BY CSC32::HADDOCK "THE FINAL NIGHTMARE" >>>
                          -< HANG TOUGH--WE'RE HERE >-
<......	FIANCE TOO MUST UNDERSTAND
<    THAT YOUR CHIDREN *MUST* COME FIRST.  IF HE CAN'T, THEN MAYBE IT'S
<    YOU THAT MUST RE-EVALUATE THE RELATIONSHIP.  YOU *CANNOT* BE FORCED
<    TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN YOUR CHIDREN AND SOMEONE ELSE.
 
    I may be being "picky" with what you say here Fred... it's very seldom
    I disagree with you... but I do here.
    
    I don't feel the *MUST* come first in the sense I believe you mean
    here.  Yes, the FIANCE *must* be willing to accept the fact that the
    children and NCP (Terza, here, but, it could be anyone) are a PACKAGE,
    and should not be separated... and if the fiance insists on just one
    part of the package, then there is a real problem...  The part I
    disagree with is that CHILDREN COMING FIRST STATEMENT.
    
    If my children CAME FIRST, I'd still be married to my ex, and still
    live with them.  But, there came a time when I had to put ME first and
    decided that for my own health, sanity, and even the long-term health
    (emotional) of my children, I had to leave.  I believe we nearly all
    make that very difficult decision at some time.
    
    Additionally, if my children CAME FIRST, I'd not have re-married.  The
    fact that I am remarried is a tremendous burden to my younger children,
    my ex sees to that...  
    
    So, if we are honest (I think), we put *ourselves, and our new spouses*
    ahead of our children... and that's exactly why we have such a
    difficult time with the separation from them... tremendous guilt for
    being "selfish", "inconsiderate of them", is heaped on us by those same
    children, by society, and especially by the ex's.
    
    tony

    

   I understand where both Tony and Fred are coming from (I think).

   It's not so much that my children come first or second or whatever, it is
   that they are a major part of my life and if my fiancee wants to be in a
   relationship, he has to accept that part of my life much as he has to
   accept anything else (like: I'm short, I love to read, I love the
   outdoors, I hate intolerance, I'm in debt, etc.)  Note that he doesn't
   have to like any of those parts to accept me et al, but it would help. 

   He hasn't put me in the position of choosing between him and my children. 
   He wouldn't (consciously) do that.  AND, he has indicated that he can't
   emotionally support my drive for custody although he strongly feels that
   something must be done.  He's not for me with respect to my kids, (which
   is a problem for me), but he's not against me, either.  He has some
   things he has to work out.


   ---------------------------------

   I meet with the school counselor at 12:30 today.  I also mail my ex a
   letter stating what will happen if Mark soils again.  I am nervous about
   these things.  I know that I am deliberately stirring things up.  I hate
   to have to work this way when there are other, healthier ways to go about
   it (but I've already tried those).

   I feel very supported by the members of this conference.  I've received
   mail, I've read the replies in here and I even got a phone call today. 
   It's somewhat overwhelming that so many people care.

   Thanks to all of you!


   							Terza

    Tony,
    
    Let me be a little more specific.  If the new SO tries to put you
    in a position of choosing between them and abandoning your children
    to whatever fate may be, then the decision ( to me at least ) 
    is quite clear.  They have to realize that this is a package deal
    and that a good part of your energy may be taken up with dealing
    with the bs surrounding the children.  Even though you are not there
    physically, and may have been stripped of all legal right as a 
    parent.  You can never be stripped of the *fact* that you are the
    parent and can still try to do whaever you can to make sure the
    chidren are being properly cared for.
    
    fred();

    First off, I will post an update (soon) in my note 110.  
    
    Terza (and others),
    
    It is my feeling that if your SO cannot support you in your parental
    role, then your SO is not accepting and participating in your life to
    the degree which I believe a partner should.  You should be able to get
    more support and encouragement from your SO than from friends.  In your
    case, as in mine, this is not happening.  What I believe it leads to is
    growing resentment on both sides with the eventual breakdown of the
    relationship.  I would rather try to salvage the friendship and let the
    love go than end up hating.
    
    RE: leaving the baby with the 7 & 9 year old children -- This hits me
    on several different levels.  The first episode of corporal punishment
    I remember is associated with just such an event.  I was between 4 & 5
    years old and had been left to care for my brother (3 1/2) and sister
    (2).  Looking back on the circumstances, I made correct decisions.  I
    still got the hell beat out of me for it.  (but what does this have to
    do with your situation?)  Well, it is my opinion that it is dangerous
    to the infant and abusive of the older child(ren) to require such
    service at such an age.  It is also child abuse and neglect according
    to the laws of most states that I know about.
    
    All the good advice has been given.  Call the police if you know it is
    happening.  DO NOT have your children participate in your actions (such
    as by having them call you when it happens) because it will put them in
    the middle and that is abusive (whatta Catch-22 8-).  Involve the
    school, the police, DSS (and keep after them as politely as possible),
    and anyone else who can exert an influence for the betterment of your
    children.  DOCUMENT everything.  If the police get involved, get a copy
    of their logs sheets and any reports they file (do it soon after each
    incident or it might get lost).  
    
    Good luck  and megahugs
    80)
    jimc

    Terza,
    
    I'm sorry you're going through so much...
    
    As the so of a parent trying to get custody of his children, I find
    your so's attitude really difficult to swallow.  When you get involved
    with someone that has children, whether they have physical custody or
    visitation rights, its a package deal.  If you can't handle that - then
    you don't develop the relationship.
    
    Sure, it would be alot easier for me to not take on 3 children who've
    been through emotional hell.  But they are his children, a part of his
    life and I love him.  I am an adult - I can deal with the problems that
    arise - I have choices.  It is inconceivable for me to ask him not to
    try for custody of those kids.  I'm right there in the middle of this,
    by his side, working to get those children into our lives.
    
    Opps mgrs here gotta go.
    
    Joyce

    Re: JIMC
    
    Your are a 100% right about not getting the kids in the middle.  I
    just get so burn when I hear about these things happening to kids
    that I didn't really think.  Thanks you for setting me staight.
    
    Tersz,
    
    All our hopes are with you.
    
    -darryl