Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    If he can provide HARD EVIDENCE (not just his say-so) of all of 
    these allogactions in court, I'd say he has a pretty good case.  Unless 
    she comes in and accuses him of sexually molesting the kids (which seems 
    to be trump card of choice these days), then he probaly doensn't have 
    a prayer.
    
    Will need hard evidence in the form of documentation of the arrest
    warrents, fraud, childs failure because of moving all the time, 
    neglect, etc.
    
    fred();

    If you can catch the ex and beu, right off the bat, parental kidnapping
    charges can be brought up. Second is alienation of effiction, in some
    states. In other states the beau can be suied for the interfierence
    with a marriage. As in another form of adultrous rap. Good one there.
    If there the ex was passing bad checks for over $500 that a felonie,
    that a bad rap there. If the children are being molested, send them to
    a srink time and also send them to see a doctor. Bruses around the
    reproductive areas will show up esp if there are anil entrances. 
    If you can catch the ex, how about drug testing, aids testing, a
    folicule from the hair can tell if she is doing every thing under the
    sun for drugs. Where ever she has messed with an landlord, find out
    what laws she/they violatted in that state. The chances are from the
    sounds of it is that they are out on a drinking/drug bindge. It will
    take them sometime to cool down. Usually crash and burn. Hot flames
    burn quick and hot. 

    What state is the mililary man living in? Hopefully not Mass or N.H.

    She was arrest once for bad checks (8 counts) he has the newspaper
    clipping saying she was given a suspended sentence.  The PI found 
    the 43 warrants and the info about the apartment.  He has a copy of 
    the PI's report, listing all the warrant numbers, a copy of the lease 
    and all the court papers pertaining to the judgement.
    
    He has documents from the military, showing support.  Copies of the
    letters she's written claiming non-support, and a letter from her bank
    showing the support money is direct deposited into a checking account
    in her name only.  
    
    His lawyer has copies of all these documents, as well as the list of 11
    separate addresses.  As far as the child failing, we only have verbal
    on that, the PI could not get school records as they were transferred
    to FLA.  He does have witnesses who are willing to testify to the
    condition of the children, their being left, etc.  He would have had a
    video of the youngest making sexually explicit comments, however, his
    mother was so shocked, she immediately erased the tape.
    
    I've known this man for 9+ months and have seen all the documented
    evidence.  I dealt with the PI, while he was on temporary assignment.
    
    Joyce

    Re.  .4
    
    He is presently stationed in Ma.  They grew up in Kentucky and were
    married there.  When he was sent to Korea - they lived in Kentucky.   
    She left with man #1 and went to Fla.  She later returned to Kentucky 
    and hooked up with man #2.  They rented the apartment in Indiana and
    then took off for Fla.  We know they are somewhere around Tampa, based
    on collect calls she made to his mom.  The papers he was served with
    today, were filed in Florida.
    
    The case goes to court (there's been a pre-trial hearing) on Thursday,
    Nov 21st in Louisville, Kentucky, where she filed for divorce the first
    time - 19+ months ago.  She did not show for the pre-trial and is not
    expected to show, I think today's papers indicate that's a definate.
    
    Can someone file in 2 separate states?
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Joyce

    
    re -1
    
>>>    Can someone file in 2 separate states?
    
    NO! The first fining takes prescedense.  He may have to get a lawyer
    in FLA to get that filing thrown out. 
    
    My ex tried to do this in Colorado and Minnesota.  The Minnesota
    action was thrown out because of the previous filing in Colorado.
    If she doesn't show in the court in KY, his chances are very good
    indeed.
    
    fred();

    I am under the inpressions the answer to two different filings of
    divorce is no. Where the filings should be is where the original
    marrital abode was. As in if he went to Korea, and she filed from 
    Kentucky. Then The Kentucky place is the place to have this shoot out.
    But, if this is going on and she is all over the country side. I think
    and feel, why the hell not file in Mass.? I think the Kentucky
    solutions is the best. Also!!! Remember!!! That she will have to travel
    as you will have to travel to the court house. Hence, if she is going
    to town spending, there won't be much to wadge a war on. 
    
    Another point to make is to grab a three ring binder, and a three hole
    punch. People leave a paper trail from here to Tim-buck-two and back. 
    Collecting all this data is going to help. As in you walk into the
    court, the ex lies about this or that. You show the court this and
    that paper to show that she is lieing through her teeth. 
    
    The affidavid game is the next game to work. As in getting people who
    will say that they will testify agianst such and such suddenly develope
    amnisia on court date. So get the affidavids ASAP! And if you need
    their faces in court, you supina them to the court. 
    
    Gee, sounds to me like these birds are looking to get cought at
    something and that you will stand up to them and give them grief for it
    will make it worth your while. You proving that the ex is not
    provinding a good home enviorment for the children might give you
    custody. Gotta do allot of praying, big time. And allot of foot work
    for no one else is going to hand it to you. No one. You want it, go get
    it. 
    
    The last thing I can tell you is that we are all adults, we are the
    care takers of our children. Its our watch, it will be a terrible thing
    to have something bad happen to these children on our watch. We have
    the power of destiny for these little lives. And even if you do not
    will round one. Round two will come, and so will round three. 
    
    George

    Get as much info about the checks and other fraud things as you can. 

    re .7
    
    Thanks Fred, I didn't think she could.  But since he got served the
    papers this a.m., he didn't have time to call his lawyer, so I thought
    I'd ask.  We're leaving for Ky tonight - I'll try to log on 1 more time
    and see if there are any more responses.
    
    Again, my thanks to those who have responded (or who will respond).
    
    Joyce
    
    

    re .8 and .9
    
    We have a 2+ inch thick stack of supporting paperwork...
    
    Joyce

    Good!! Keep it up!! Three hole punch the stuff so you don't loose it!
    Keep it in crono order and what ever else sub topics you want. Just
    like you do when your creating files in VMS. 

   I can't believe what I just read.  This is truly a horror
story.  I don't know for sure, but I would say that if she
got a suspended sentence, it was probably on the condition
that she not get into further trouble.  While I'm a firm
believer in innocent until proven guilty, I think it is
highly unlikely that someone would have 43 outstanding warrants
and be on the right side of the law.  This could be very important
because if she goes to jail, there, by default, remains only
one responsible parent.  As far as the teeth and sexually
explicit comments, unless you have proof or some very credible
witnesses, I think those might backfire on you.  ie. "They
learned the behavior during the two days they were with their
father and that is why I haven't let him see them since.  I'm
only trying to protect my children." " If he'd support his kids
like he should, I could get the necessary dental care for them."

   It sounds like these children are in immediate danger and
something needs to be done much sooner than when things fall
into place.  If you can back up your allegations, you should
file the appropriate documents immediately.

   While the chances of getting custody may seem slim after
reading this notesfile, the three situations I have seen where
fathers get custody are those where the mother abandons the
children, those where she agrees to allow the father to have
custody, and those where there is PROVEN abuse.

Regards,
Gary
                                      

    Joyce,
    I don't have anything further to add, you have been given very good
    advice.  Good luck and I will definitely keep you in my prayers.  Let
    us know how it goes.  I hope your friend gets custody.  
    
    hugs, good luck and godspeed.  Let us know what happens.
    
    Karen

    Gary,
    
    the only reason he saw them for the 2 days was because she was back in
    KY and dropped them off at his mom's for several days - it was sheer
    coincidence...  The behavior was exhibited 4-5 months later when they
    were again left at his mom's.  As for witnesses there are at least 12
    adults who have seen the children's teeth.  She has the ability to walk
    onto any military base in the U.S. and get their dental and medical
    needs taken care of for free - they are his dependents.
    
    Well - we're out of here soon.  Again - thanks for the advice, etc.
    
    *hugs*
    
    Joyce

   Hi Joyce,

   I don't have any advice.  I think this is a tremendously abusive
   situation.  I hope that he will be able to do something for his children. 

   Good luck with it all!


   							Terza

    As a gnereal rule, jurisdiction for a divorce is the state where the
    couple last lived together.  If they never lived together in Florida,
    Florida has no jurisdiction.   I think that a letter to her attorney in
    Florida (if she has one) pointing out that a) she has divorce
    proceedings pending in Kentucky and b) there's a juridictional issue
    would take care of the Florida case.  If she doesn't have a lawyer (the
    papers should indicate it she does) then your friend's lawyer should be
    able to work it through the court without making your friend subject to
    the court's jurisdiction.
    
    Sounds to me like your friend has enough to at least get the court to
    investigate before awarding custody.  
    
    Best of luck!
    Polly   

    .18
    I cryed because I had no shoes, till I met a man who had no feet.

    Well - we're back ;-(
    
    Hi Terza  thanks for the support.  Polly - thanks for the info...
    
    Here's what happened.  The judge disolved the marriage after much work
    on his lawyers side.  *However* - because she was not a resident of
    Kentucky when she files, the judge could not do anything about custody.
    
    At one point they did live in Florida, however, they lived in Kentucky
    prior to his enlisting in the military.
    
    As for her lawyer in Fla, its legal aid - although she's working - she
    claimed her only income was the child support he sends and so she got
    legal aid.  He called her lawyer Thursday afternoon and he *refused* to
    believe the divorce had been granted.  So, once the divorce papers
    arrive, they will be faxed to the lawyer in Fla.
    
    In the meantime - he's going to talk to a lawyer here in Ma.  But, the
    point Polly brought up seems to indicate he could not go for custody
    here in Ma...
    
    Damn this is all so frustrating.  To boot - she was in Ky, but did not
    show for the hearing.  His mom found out by accident she was in Ky, but
    she could not be located.
    
    Thanks for all your support/advice, keep the info coming.
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    
    	What is the level min level she one can be granted free legal aid?
    It can be tharted if you check.

    re. 21
    
    George (I hope I got that right) - could you re-ask me the question?
    I'm not sure what you mean in .21
    
    thanks
    
    Joyce

    If the ex is making money. Just because she is momma, doesn't ALWAYS
    mean that she is a poverty striken woman destitude. Usually state and
    local free legal aid has its limits. Example: If the legal aid says
    she needs to be a destitude of $14,000 with three children and she
    makes $15,000. She doesn't qaulify. If She is LIEING, saying that she
    is a destitude. Prove it! You say to your legal rep. whats the limit? 
    They say,'bla-bla'. You say that you want to see her income statements
    as in pay stubs, IRS returns, and of course. What the latest live in
    Beau is making. Besides life terrible for you. In some states, you can
    pull the live in Beau trick, in others no. But how long the live in
    beau has been living with the ex will determine what Polly
    would say,"A wise and prudent posture of determination." Right Polly! :)
    Give it a shot. The worst that can happen is that it wont work. But
    you gave it a try. 
    
    Peace

    In either event. Cutting the money suply is like cutting any suply line
    in a war. Child suport is sometimes counted and sometimes not counted
    in the bottom line figures. Alimony/maintence is counted. So count on
    that!:) Gotta find what the local laws are. Good luck and remember,
    Peace, through superior fire power!

    I don't understand why, if the court had jurisdiction to grant the
    divorce, the court didn'd have jurisdiction on custody.  I'd have
    your lawyer in Ky check into that.  Also check into getting
    jurisdiction changed to Ma. if possible.  You *don't* want to fight
    this in FLA if possible, even if you have to file an appeal in
    KY on the jurisdiction issue.
    fred();

    Well the Ma lawyer called me back - no jurisdiction here.  She said
    that the judge in Kentucky should have determined custody.  She
    recommended getting a lawyer in Fla ASAP.
    
    Joyce

    Have the lawyer in FLA file for florida to decline jurrisdiction.
    File certified copyies of the KY papers witht he FLA court to show
    that KY already has jurisdiction.
    fred();

    Timing is everything. Show court orders from Kentucky showing that she
    filed there before Fla.

    Generally, the state where the children reside has jurisdiction over
    the custody issues. I think if the wife had appeared in the Kentucky
    proceeding, the court may have been more willing to assume
    jurisdiction.  But, without her in the courtroom enforcing the
    judgement in Florida could have proven difficult.
    
    I agree, get a Florida attorney and make sure that (s)he is armed with
    certified copies of the Kentucky judgement and the petitions that were
    filed to inititate the divorce.  I dont' think the Florida courts are
    going to be very amused by the game that is being played.  They may
    still exercise jurisdcition on the custody matter but I don't see how
    they can fail to give full faith and credit to Kentucky decision.  And,
    the fact she's acted in bad faith may help a little on the custody
    issue.
    
    Best of luck!
    
    Polly

    Thanks Polly....
    
    
    time for an update!  Faxed a lawyer 96 pages of documents Weds. and
    we spoke with him today.  Since she was in Kentucky from 6/7/91 to at
    least 8/8/91 seems she wasn't a resident of Florida for 6 months when
    she filed.  He's going to respond to the filing for us, requesting
    jurisdiction be denied based on that, all witnesses are in Kentucky,
    Kentucky granted the divorce and its creating extreme financial
    hardship for my fiance to handle this in Fla.  We have a videotape with
    date taken on 6/8 and 6/9 in Kentucky, we're getting notarized letters
    from all his relatives attesting to the fact they were in Ky for a
    month at least.  We also have phone bills showing the calls made that
    discussed Windy's coming to live with us.
    
    The retainer goes out in the mail tomorrow and we sit back and wait.
    
    Thanks again for all the advice and support!
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    A ton of hugs and prayers coming your way!  I wish I could offer more,
    but it's all I've got for now.
    
    hugs,
    Karen

    The plot thickens....
    
    The lawyer we got in Fla responded today - she has 20 days to respond. 
    In the meantime, my So's mom found out accidentally that his ex is
    infact in Kentucky and has been since 10/27.  The oldest child called
    her grandmother collect on 10/27 from Louisville!  My so's mom just
    discovered it was from Ky and not Fla.
    
    Now, get this - the ex's mother calls and says - I'm going to Florida
    to spend Christmas with the kids - do you have any presents you want me
    to bring?  Later on my so's mom decides she wants to talk to the ex's
    mom and ask a few questions.  So she calls the ex's boyfriend's
    mother's house and the step-father tells her that the ex is in Ky and
    has been since Oct!!!!
    
    How she filed on 11/4 in Florida is beyond me - but she has a house and
    a phone number and is "laying low" due to the warrants.  Tmorrow we
    call the lawyer in Fla and find out what to do....
    
    stay tuned!
    
    joyce

    Do not talk to the opposing camp. Period. Warning! Let them talk to 
    your answering machine. Your playing poker with the phone calls. And
    the best game to play is the one where you win cause you did not say
    a word to the opposing camp. Let your lawyers do the talking. Let them
    (oppoisng camp) do the walking. Every time you open you mouth on the
    phone, you risk tipping your hand. Remember your emotions are out there
    very very far. Screen your calls on the answering machine.
    
     

    George,
    
    What transpired was the ex's mother called my so's mother.  Then my
    so's mother found out the ex was in Ky.  Neither my so, nor I have
    spoken to them.  If the ex does call, the agreed response is "have your
    lawyer speak to my lawyer".
    
    Not sure what you mean by your last response.  Personally I'm glad my
    so's mother found out the ex is in Ky - that's more ammo for us.  She
    filed in Fla based on the fact she's lived there 6 mo's and she hasn't
    done that!
    
    Joyce

    Another update....
    
    The ex called Sunday night *demanding* more $$ because they were
    divorced.  It was messy to say the least... 
    
    Monday the PI was contacted, given the phone number she's at and the
    street and given instructions that once he verifies she's there - to
    turn her into the police on the 43 warrants.  2 lawyers advised us that
    this would help our case.  The PI is booked until Weds, in the meantime
    he's giving his mother power of attorney, so she can get the kids. 
    Child Welfare will be given the kids because he's not in Ky.  So, we're
    sitting and waiting and hoping she doesn't take off....
    
    Joyce

    Prayers needed....
    
    The PI finally got an address on her and supposedly the police are on
    their way to pick her up now.  This department has 26 of the 43
    warrants.  The other 2 departments have been notified and will be
    staking a claim (for lack of better words) for their warrants, so she
    will be held for a while.
    
    Since custody has not been decided, legally we can bring the children
    to Ma.  We may have them here in the next few days....
    
    joyce

    If custody has not been decided nor any court order issued, the father
    has just as much right to the children as the mother ( and vice-versa).
    It's amazing *how many* people are still locked into the old
    steryotypes.
    
    If you can get physical posession ( for lack of a better term ) and 
    establish a stable home for the children, your chances for permanant
    custody increase significantly.

    re. 37
    
    For 2 years, she's been living with the other guy and moving
    constantly.  Until 12/8 we did not have a phone number - the one we got
    is unlisted.  Until 9 a.m. today, we did not have an address.
    
    He's in the military stationed in Ma.  She floats between Fla and Ky
    and she and her boyfriend have family in Ky who hide them.
    
    Until today it was impossible for us to get "physical possession". 
    However, if the police can pick her up, we can get the kids.
    
    Joyce

	Good Luck!!!

    Joyce,
    I've been in class all day.  Sending mucho prayers and love your way!
    
    hugs,
    Karen

    Thanks for the support folks - we're still waiting to hear...
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce

	Hi Joyce,

	WOW, I just don't know what to say! 

	I pray for the kids sake that the legal system does this thing 
right!

	HUGS,

	Kirk

    Thanks Kirk
    
    *hugs* backatcha! ;-)
    
    Well, the Louisville City Police have still done nothing.  We're still
    waiting but the lawyer has the paperwork to file for temporary custody,
    when this does go down...
    
    sigh
    
    Joyce

    Then I'll just keep praying.  Good luck Joyce.
    
    Karen

    Good luck Joyce!  The anxiety surrounding this "wait and see" must
    be nerve-wracking....  I hope and pray for the best!  
    
    Kath

    Thanks Kath...
    
    If all goes as plans, she will be in custody tonight.  Just sitting
    keeping my fingers crossed and waiting - blech - who likes to wait?!?!?
    ;-)
    
    Again, my thanks for the support, prayers and hugs.
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce

    Well the police never showed.  Seems they could not get the paperwork
    from the other county to support arresting her...
    
    What do you have to do to get someone with 43 warrants picked
    up?!?!?!?!?
    
    Joyce

My heart really feels for you and your family.  

Contact the DA and tell him/her your story.  They can build a fire under
the police.

-darryl

    re .48.
    
    Keep the pressure on.  Go to the d.a.,  make an appointment with the
    county Sheriff ( he's an eleted official usually and is not likely
    going to want any bad publicity, so is the D.A. for that matter..
    hint..hint).
    
    If you can get copies (probably cerified copies if possible) of the
    arrest werrents.  Take them to the Judge with an EMERGENCY REQUEST
    for change of custody stating that the she is a fugitive from the law
    and is endangering the physical and emotional well being of the 
    children.
    
    fred();

    
    If you can get copies (probably cerified copies if possible) of the
    arrest werrents.  Take them to the Judge with an EMERGENCY REQUEST
    for change of custody stating that the she is a fugitive from the law
    and is endangering the physical and emotional well being of the 
    children.
    
Fred,

That is such an outstanding idea,  I don't quite know how to underscore it.

The judge would most likely issue his own warrent for her.  


-darryl

    Joyce,
    
    	How are things going? Did they catch Maa-Barker yet? :)
    
    Geo

    I've been pretty ill, had an allergic reaction to meds and ended up at
    the emergency room.  Actually I've been sick since 10/21 and have an 
    apt with a specialist on Monday, may be "chronic fatigue syndrome" or 
    a thyroid problem - but that's another story...
    
    Anyway enough of that.  She has not been picked up yet and most likely
    won't be.  He has decided to go for emergency temporary custody, we've
    been pretty wrapped up in my illness and this has kind of taken a back
    seat.  However, we had a rather lengthy discussion and tomorrow when
    he's off work he'll be calling the lawyer. 
    
    joyce   

    Time for another update.....
    
    Well the lawyer in Ky feels we should just go straight for custody and
    forget temporary.  He said that the court can waive the 43 warrants -
    although 43 is a rather high amount.  He said by the end of next week
    he'd have a court date for a custody hearing.
    
    Joyce

    Hi...I just wanted to say, Joyce, that I admire you for all that you
    are doing for these kids.  For being on the scene for 9 months, I think
    that your fiance' is real lucky to have your support.  You'd make a
    great step-mother.  
    
    I would wonder if the stress of all of this isn't taking a toll and
    been playing a part in your health lately.  
    
    Take care.

    re. 55
    
    thanks for the validation...  Actually we'll be celebrating our 1 year
    together anniversary next month and if all goes well, a week later
    we'll be married.  I did see a specialist yesterday, it is viral but
    they're not sure what it is.  She ordered 12 test and hopefully that
    will turn something up.  Life has been incredibly stressful and I've
    taken extra good care of me - just can't seem to kick this thing...
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    I'd like to second .55.  There are all too few like you.  I have 
    one of them--my wife.  I can appreciate the support you're giving
    throut all of this and what is costing you, physically, emotionally,
    and probably financially.  Unless you s.o. is totally stupid, he
    won't let you get away.  Win, loose, or draw.
    fred();

    re .57
    
    *blush* gee - thanks Fred.  No wonder he's been pushing me to set a
    date ;-)  
    
    Honestly - I'd say I'm just as lucky as he is!
    
    joyce

Please don't misunderstand this, but if you are going to get marry, you 
should do it before the court date.  Having a stable home life ready for
the kids will weigh heavy with da judge.  Also when it comes to court you 
should be there if at all possible.

Good luck and all my hopes!!!!

-darryl

    Darryl,
    
    We've been planning for a while to get married in Feb, and we probably
    will.  I will most definately be there at court time - I already took
    an LOA to make the last court date.
    
    Joyce

    Congrads on your wedding plans! Great work with the battle. But, is
    your S.O. legally divorced yet? IF not, wait! We have a fellow noter
    here who had that little stunt pulled on him. And its a very messy
    situation.
    
    George

    Yes George he is legally divorced - the divorce was grated on November
    21st in Louisville Kentucky and he finally got the paperwork from the
    court proving it on Monday.
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    
    Have you looked in DLOACT::BLENDED_FAMILIES?  There is an entry in
    there that I think would interest you.  There is an anonymous entry
    with another viewpoint...look under note 112.
    
    Kim

    Kim
    
    I haven't looked in there in a while - will do that now!
    
    thanks!
    
    Joyce

    Time for another update...
    
    Despite several calls to this lawyer, we still haven't seen the
    paperwork, nor been able to get him on the phone.  Its time to find
    another lawyer - what a mess!
    
    In the meantime, his ex spoke with his mom and claimed she's already
    been to court, has custody of the children and he'll be paying big
    bucks in child support.  Needless to say we think she's lying.  How
    could all that take place and the father not even know about it?  How
    could an amount of support be decided when they don't know his income?
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    
    	Don't call. Write with registered letters and or expresss mail. If
    the lawyer doesn't respond with these. Then give IT the 'on the pot or
    get off' letter. 
    
    	I would not be suprised if there might have been a closed hearing
    and that the letter is slowly making its way to you about it. I think
    I would not let the ex have too much insofar as credince goes... But
    I certainly would never under estimate the ex. Brainless as she
    may seem, she certainly exibits that crafty-ness to stay out of the
    reach of the law. 
    
    George

    George,
    
    what do you mean by "closed hearing"?  She can get a custody hearing
    without the other parent even knowing?
    
    thanks
    
    Joyce

    Its the sign of the times Joyce. Even our resident lawyer will tell you
    that horra. If your attorney has recieved alittle gratus from the
    opposing camp, your attorney can arrange for you, for he/she has that
    power of attorney, a special hearing. And they may not invite you.
    Infact many of us have been locked out of the judges chambers and other
    such hearings. The wild part is that the NCP man is footing the bill
    for her attorney, his attorney, and the childrens attorney. And you get
    to stand outside as they determine your fate. Fair and equal justice?
    Where? I would not get upset, I would find out from the court house
    if such has happened. 
    
    	THIS IS WHY IT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE COPIES OF ALL
    THE PAPERWORK THAT HAS BEEN GENERATED BY ANYONE THAT INVOLVES YOU!
    If your attorney has been doing their job you should have everything
    that has taken place. Filings of motions, apeals, bills, corespondance
    between attornies. If your not recieving your fair share of mail.
    BETTER FIND YOURSELF A NEW ATTORNEY FAST! The best way to keep up
    is to visit the court house and check up on your case. You will need
    you docket number.
    
    George 
    

    re .65
    
    All likelihood is that the ex is lying about the custody and child support.
    She *may* have given her lawyer and the court a bunch of b.s. about
    not being able to locate your S.O. and gotten a judgement of some
    sort by doing a "service by publication" where certain court papers
    are published in the newspaper.  If she has, the court orders can
    be vacated and the ex will likely be in *big* trouble when she 
    *did* know where you were and there was a *previous* procedure already
    taking place.  It's called fraud and purgery.
    
    fred();

    Fred,
    
    	This ex has some 43 warrents out for her arrest for the passing of
    bad checks. What makes you think that this socialpath is not capable of
    continuing suck practices?
    

    re .65
    
    As for your lawyer.  He is probably in a position of not wanting to
    rattle any cages.  Especially if the judge has aready turned down
    the custody procedure.  Then it will be the Judge's cage the the 
    lawyer is going to have to rattle.  Lawyers are *very* reluctant
    to disagree with judges and try to bring any pressure on them.
    
    If you get a second lawyer, make sure the present lawyer turns over
    *all* files and paperwork to the new lawyer.  The new lawyer can
    check the court files to make sure he has everything, but again the
    new lawyer is going to be reluctant to rattle any cages. Esp. either
    the judge *or* the old lawyer.
    
    fred();

    RE .79
    
    
>    	This ex has some 43 warrents out for her arrest for the passing of
>    bad checks. What makes you think that this socialpath is not capable of
>    continuing suck practices?
    
    That is why you cannot totally rule out that the ex is lying. 8^(.
    fred();

    We do have all copies of paperwork that has transpired around this
    case, back to August of 90 when she first filed.   Yesterday we
    received notification from her lawyer in Florida that she withdrew the
    divorce petition there.  Grounds - the divorce was granted in Ky and
    she will be handling custody there as her mother is sick and she will
    not be returning to Fla.  
    
    If she did get it into court on the grounds she does not know his
    whereabouts, we can prove she lied.  Hell her lawyer in Fla sent us the
    paperwork!
    
    Thanks for all the info and support.
    
    Joyce

Hi Joyce,

On the lighter side of things, this could all be turned into a good book and
movie. Imagine the money one could make on the film rights.

Like it has been mentioned, it would appear she is a very crafty person and is
trying stay one step ahead of your efforts. It sounds like you have an excellent
paper trail to prove what she has been doing, especially if her Fla lawyer sent
you papers to begin with.

You have her on the run, with time she will run out of road and the victory will
be yours to savor and enjoy.

Keep up the good work!

John

    Its been a while and much has happened...
    
    We were married on March 21st and the Monday before we received a call
    from my mother-in-law telling us the ex was in jail.  She went to
    Louisville to pick up the children and was denied help by the police
    and their maternal grandmother refused to even admit her daughter was
    in jail.  Early the next morning they left for here.
    
    Weds night we got a collect call from the oldest child.  The deal was
    we refuse and then call the house, but knowing the circumstances I
    immediately accepted the call.  Seems the ex was now out of jail and
    they were in Indiana or in the process of moving there.  
    
    NOTE:  we'd been informed the reason she was arrested again was because
    she jumped bail, more bad checks and drugs.  We have a PI investigating
    the charges now.
    
    We were married on 3/21 and took off for a couple days of honeymooning
    and the ex was supposed to call and leave the new phone number.  We
    never heard and Friday night, she dropped the children off to my
    mother-in-law.   Saturday morning we were on our way to KY.  We
    contacted 2 lawyers who said they "thought" we might be able to take
    the kids back with us, but couldn't say definately.  We decided we
    better not chance losing custody in the long run.  She called around 8
    p.m. and the youngest told her we were there.  At 10 p.m. she arrived
    and dragged the children out crying and half dressed.   She wanted us
    to come outside and "talk", only when we got the rest of their clothes
    and got outside all we saw were the tail lights of the car.   Sunday
    a.m. she called about the clothes and agreed to let us see them before
    we took off.  When we got to Louisville, she and the children were gone
    and the boyfriend's father took the clothes.
    
    We got the name of a lawyer who's licensed in Ky and Indiana and began
    speaking with him yesterday.  He told my husband we stand a good chance
    of getting custody.  There's only one problem - a $3k retainer fee that
    must be payed upfront.  My mother-in-law is going to let us know how
    much of that she can loan us, but my credit is tapped out.  The flight
    this week-end was $877 with a military discount!
    
    So as of this moment, we finally have a lawyer who believes he can help
    us and is willing to - provided we come up with the money...
    
    Are there any resources a ncp can turn to, for financial aid?
    
    thanks...
    
    joyce
    
    

    re. 75 joyce
    
 >    Are there any resources a ncp can turn to, for financial aid?
    
    	None that I know of.  Hang in there, though.  Looks like
    the kids need your help more than ever.  Good luck.
    
    fred();

    Outside of Beneficial, I agree with Fred. That was the way I had to go
    to gather the shoot money for my lawyers and GAL. At 24%, thats a stiff
    game to play. I hope to be out of hot water with them soon. I could not
    get a personal loan from our own famed DCU. To which I had paid off
    big time monies run up by the ex. The bottom line, work lots of over
    time, live like a spartan, and be ready to plop down lots.
    
    The best is what your doing. Keep her on the run, she is going to run
    out of luck. And run into some big troubles. I will pray for you and
    the family tonight.
    
    Peace

		For your sake and the children's sake, good luck. 
	

    Well we finally found another lawyer who's retainer and fee's were
    manageable...
    
    He was referred to us by another lawyer who was highly recommended. 
    He seems supportive and willing to fight for us.  We've given him alot
    of info and he's got his PI tracking the ex.   She has disappeared
    again.  She did call last Friday and Sunday, looking for the support
    money, but refuses to give us the address the children are living at.
    
    So much fun ;-)
    
    joyce

	GOOD LUCK AND THANKS FOR KEEPING US POSTED.

    
    re.80 ditto
    fred();

    I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to access this converence, as
    of yesterday I went on STD.  
    
    But, I wanted to give a quick update.  The new lawyer called us at 9:00
    p.m. last night to let us know his PI had found out where she was
    living.  She's apparently living with someone.  In any event she will
    be served either today or tomorrow.
    
    Keep those fingers crossed nad prayers coming...
    
    joyce

    Joyce,
    
    Good luck.  Take care of yerself.  Enjoy your time off.
    
    fred();

    Joyce,
    
    Why the hell don't you call America's most wanted some night and let
    the nation help you find out where this bonehead is? It will save you
    allot of money. 
    
    Good Luck and Happy Trails 
    to you!

    Still on STD and spoke with the lawyer yesterday.  The pre-trail
    hearing is set for May 4th.  He's requesting visitation schedule and
    home evaluation by Child Services among other things...
    
    Meanwhile the ex went to Army Emergency Relief trying to get 1k for
    rental car, clothing, food and apt security deposit.  This woman has
    you know what's!!!  Anyway RedCross contacted my hub, since he'd be
    paying back the $$ AER gave her.  He asked if they could guarantee the
    children would benefit from the $$, they said nope.  So he refused to
    authorize it.
    
    Seems the boyfriends dad has refused to pay her court bills and bad
    checks any longer.  My hub did tell Red Cross she'd been arrested again
    and that was why she wanted the $$.  They gave him the old "there's
    something wrong with you" treatment.  
    
    sigh one day things will be different!
    
    joyce

    
    Looks like ( hopefully ) she may be running out of support groups
    to take care of her.  Hang tough.  This too shall pass.
    fred();

    Another update....
    
    Court is definately Monday - but she hasn't been served.  She keeps
    moving and won't answer the door, etc.  The lawyer said she's clearly
    avoiding service and he will file for emergency temporary custody if
    she hasn't been served.  Meanwhile she's going through the military
    hassling us for money...
    
    life's never dull! ;-)
    
    joyce

    Joyce,
    
    	It could be worse..... It could be dull!!!:) Remember this, when
    the road gets tuff, the weak get screwed. Get tuff or they will
    screw yha! :^) 
    
    
    Peace

    More hurry up and wait...
    
    The ex wasn't served by the first court date - it was continued to
    yesterday.  She was served last Friday, but didn't show yesterday. 
    Results - the judge was "reluctant" to do anything - perhaps the ex
    didn't understand what being served meant, as her counsel withdrew from
    her case...  Excuse me - but this person has been arrested, gone to
    court and been served more than once!  
    
    In any event - our lawyer goes back to court next Tuesday and meanwhile
    she gets served again...
    
    joyce

    joyce,
    
    Judges seem to be reluctant to do anything that may be view as
    getting hard on "the poor little woman".  However, In this case
    it may be that the person being served with papers has x amount
    of time (usually about two weeks) to respond to the papers before
    the judge can really do anything.  Keep pluggin.  This has all
    got to end sometime.
    
    fred();

    joyce,
    
    Judges seem to be reluctant to do anything that may be view as
    getting hard on "the poor little woman".  However, In this case
    it may be that the person being served with papers has x amount
    of time (usually about two weeks) to respond to the papers before
    the judge can really do anything.  Keep pluggin.  This has all
    got to end sometime.
    
    fred();

    Well, another no-show....
    
    Results - restraining order issued - she can't leave the jurisdiction
    of the court - however she already has.  After a 45 minute conversation
    with the lawyer, he's making a motion ot have the children produced and
    physically and psychologically examined.  That feels good - the neglect
    will be evident.  On the other hand she could just no show again, and
    if so supposedly a bench warrant will be issued as she'll be in in
    contempt of court.  
    
    The kicker is - she was served 3 times - and after the hearing Monday 
    her fiance called the judge claiming the papers my mother-in-law left
    in their mailbox, was the first time they were served.  The 3 kids, the
    ex and her fiance are living in a 2 room house that has to be padlocked
    - great environment for the children.
    
    The lawyer said the choice was the mother or foster care - since we're
    out of state and the judge would be reluctant to give custody not
    knwoing anything of our living conditions.  Our response - we'd rather
    see them in foster care.
    
    Round and round and round - one of these days it will stop and
    hopefully the travesties of the last 3 years will have some impact on
    this judge!
    
    joyce

    The three P's of life. Patients, persistence, and preserver-ance.
    
    Hang Tuff!

    Hi, Joyce!
    
    I felt so frustrated reading your note! I can't believe the (&^#!
    you're going through.  This run around has gone on so long, and 
    yet she's still got her kids and the upper hand in the situation.
    Arrrgh. Isn't there some way to elevate the situation?  If "dead beat
    dads" got so much press, wouldn't this story also go public? 
    What about calling/writing the congressmen and senators in the 
    state you're trying to get custody?  It sounds like it's time
    to go beyond the legal bureaucracy.  
    
    If you're resistant to "go public", consider this:
    
    My landlord had a son who was born with a liver disorder and needed
    a transplant. After all other measures failed, they were forced
    to go public with a plea for doners.  They got tons of press,
    support from local civic organizations, and national attention. 
    
    I realize that custody is quite different than a liver transplant,
    but the press seems to be hungry for horror stories.  
    Your story is right out of "that's incredible".
    
    Hang in there Joyce.  I miss you!  hugs, Woody

    If you thought I was frustrated over this ordeal earlier - just listen
    to this....
    
    Last Thursday we recieved a frantic collect call on our answering
    machine at 10:00 p.m. - the operator announcing "Josh was in the
    hospital" and the ex was calling collect.  When it rang we let it go to
    the machine as we had already gone to bed, hwoever I decided later to
    get up and check out the message.  Just after listing, my mother in law
    called.  Seems Josh (age 7) had a bicycle accident and we in pretty bad
    shape and had surgery.  We finally managed to get through to the
    childrens hospital and speak to the "ex" - his intestines were
    ruptured, they removed his appendix and his gaul bladder (sp?) as
    bruised.  At first she said if went to KY she would nto let us see him,
    on "her lawyers advice".  That was Thursday night.  Friday at noon she
    said yes *IF* she was there but if she wasn't the hospital would not
    let us in "under the circumstances".  I taped the conversation and
    called our lawyer in KY.  Got the senior partner who went to court to
    get an order incase we could not see him.  Lo and behold Judge Corey
    (female by the way) refused - the reason - he didn't have an affidavit
    from us!
    
    We did go to Ky - we did get to see him - she did refuse to let us see
    the other two.  We did get video tape of the *slum* she had them living
    in and their present home is marginally better.  
    
    Josh is doing fine - they had to remove a portion of his intestines and
    he told his Gram he was going home today.  We arrived back in MA today.
    
    It was a very scarey, frustrating, painful trip (I had a car accident
    and my neck/back are messed up and I had to lie flat for the trip).
    
    Our first court custody date is July 17th - the ex thinks we're going
    to settle support and doeesn't know we're going for custody.
    
    All for now - I'm exhuasted...
    
    but still kicking! ;-)
    
    joyce

    Good luck on the 17th!  
    
    I'm so sorry you had to go through all that scarey stuff with Josh! 
    It must've really hurt Dewitt to know he couldn't see his son.  
    I hope you feel better soon!  (My car was rear ended Sat and I still
    have a stiff neck! I can't imagine how painful your trip must've
    been!)
    
    Hang in there...I'll be praying for you all!  
    
    Kath

    re .95
    
    And people wonder why I still get to irate about custody/visitation
    issues.  Hang in the Joyce.
    
    fred();

    Ditto Fred!! Children are not Exclusively Moms or Dads. They are on loan 
    to us from God, then they turn 18 and they belong to someone else or
    themselves. And to do this to these people, (children, NCP, and CP) will 
    hurt all of us later on. 

    Round One goes to us - the kids are in our temporary custody!  Until
    the permanent hearing in August.  
    
    18+ hrs of traveling to get back to MA so I could get into work today 
    and they were really good.  We left Ky Tuesday night at 8:00.  We got
    up yesterday and drove till almost 2 a.m. last night before we were
    home. 
    
    I still can't believe this dream has come true.  We may win this yet 
    and we may not - but for now my husband is at home with our children...
    
    We sat in the motel room Tuesday night - just watching them sleep. 
    Every time one of them made a peep I woke out of a sound sleep and
    checked them - guess I have that "mom radar" afterall ;-)
    
    I'm exhausted and elated at the same time.  I've cried so many tears of
    joy and relief my eyes ache - but we have them home with us and we've
    got a solid chance at getting permanent custody.
    
    Thank you all for your support and caring...
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce

wow.

Congratulations!!!!!

    Congratulations Joyce!  :-)
    
    Karen

	Phew, you deserve lots of credit for hanging in ...

	     What you've done is no minor feat ...

		 Your household just went from two to five - shopping
		 for them and helping with school work will be much 
		 more fun now!

		     Congratulations,
		     Richard

    Terza, Karen, Richard
    
    thanks... 
    
    Given the 1k trip, 5 hrs of sleep and coming into work yesterday it
    sure was an *experience* coming home last night.  Not to mention we had
    a minor accident, Maxie (standard poodle) jumped over Windy and caught
    her in the eye - she got scraped and a cut, but no major damage.  I
    walked in the house to screaming/crying and bleeding.  Windy was a good
    troop though, she knew Maxie didn't do it on purpose and after we got
    her cleaned up, she was petting and hugging Maxie.  I think she
    survived it better than I did! ;-)
    
    But, getting them to sleep at a decent hour was another story ;-)
    
    Geesh I could blab all day! ;-)
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce

    I just have to share this...
    
    My mom invited us all down to swim this afternoon, I'm currently still
    on 20 hrs std a week.  So I called the house to see if the kids would
    like to and they were psyched.  Windy got on the phone and then Curtis
    (Curtis is 5 and lisps and is difficult to understand).  Anway, he
    started telling me he and daddy were playing with Maxie and he wanted
    to go swimming, etc.  When it was time to go, I said "I love you
    Curtis" and he said "I love you" back.  
    
    I'm sitting here crying...  I know I'll never be his mother and I don't
    want to take her place.  But I already love these kids and maybe, just
    maybe they'll love me back...
    
    joyce

    Joyce
    
    Add my congratulations.  Feels good to win a long hard one.
    No guarantees, but the courts awarding temporary custody is usually
    a very good sign about how permanent custody will go.
    
    fred();

		Congradulations, You have worked so hard and so long against
	a seemingly impossible system. By all my experience says that the
	simple fact that they're now in your care means that the likihood
	of them staying there is very high. The courts seem to prefer status
	quo over changing custody. The children a very lucky to have people
	who love enough to fight so hard for them. 
		I'm going through a custody battle myself right now.and I've
	being accused of brainwashing my 12 year old son and all kinds of bad
	things, since he wants(and is) living with me. It couldn't possibly
	be that he better off with me.....She recieves child support for him
	still but refused his allowance when he asked, he was real impressed
	with her priorities.

Joyce,

Happy for you & your family.  Hope that all continues well, and that you,
your husband, and the children can make the transition to being a family
unit with flying colors.

Leslie

    Congrads Joyce! Its not the size of the dog, its the size of the fight
    in the dog that counts. Guess you two have the size of a very large
    Fighting hound! Perhaps a wolfpack. :)
    
    I know what that feeling must feel like Joyce, to see my daughter home,
    after Years of hunting for her, worry-ing about her. Sleeping in alleys
    doing recon to help her come home. Sleeping in/during snow and rain
    storms with a camera under my jacket. No fun.
    
    Peace

		I had to respond to your wonderful note about swimming,
	and crying. To hear such joy after so must frustration for so long
	is just so uplifting.  Maybe once in a while love can ovrecome hate.
	You deserve all the joy those children can give you. Don't worry 
	replacing thier mother, no child has ever suffered from too  much 
	real love and caring. Thanks fro boasting my spirits. Go bless and
	have a wondeful weekend with them.....

    Well folks, I've been TFSO'd....   Friday is my last day and 1:00
    today, I lose my noting privs.
    
    I thank you all for your support, encouragement and caring.  Keep us in
    your thoughts for August 11th.
    
    If you want to say goodbye - its ok to send mail.
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce

    Anyone remember me????
    
    I'm really Joyce DeWitt aka royalt::J_DeWitt - back at DEC temping
    after 3 years.  The owner of this account was nice enough to let me use
    it, so I popped back here to see what's been going on.  I just set seen
    for July of 1992 - so I have alot of catching up to do!!!!
    
    I cannot receive mail through this account, I am anticipating being on
    the net live with my own account within 2 weeks or so.  In the meantime
    I'm going to read and reply when I can.  If you like to talk live I'm
    at DTN:  276-8507 in Stow.
    
    We ended up with joint custody and very specific visitation - what a
    joke that was...  within 1 month she was in violation, she got a hand
    slap - we had to shell out more $$ to get court orders to put the kids
    on the plane for our first Christmas visit (and they stated she would
    have to pay the airfare if she kept them home) -- she refused to let them
    fly!!!  You guessed it - in the end - she kept Josh home (he had been ill,
    but the Doc said he could fly).  We had agreed to fly Josh up on the
    29th - she didn't keep her end of the deal.  We went back to court -
    were told by the "commissioner" she was the mother and had every right
    to keep him home (even though we could prove she had him out
    galavanting therefore he wasn't too ill to fly to MA) - she did end up
    having to pay us $45 - and the moon is made of blue cheese! ;-)
    
    We've been dragged into court on false charges of non-support - even
    though we had affidavits from DOR/KY, our Attorney and money order
    receipts proving there was no arrears, the MA DOR rep refused to look at
    the proof and tried to get the judge to order collection of the
    arrearage.  Needless to say when I pointed out the Judge would be violating
    my husband's civil rights by signing an order to collect false
    arrearage, that got his attention and he *forced* the DOR person to
    review the affidavits and money orders (that paralegal degree I got
    after leaving DEC turned out to be usefull afterall ;-) ).  Lo and 
    behold she said "why you were right - there isn't a single missing 
    payment"...
    
    We've endured the above, plus death threats, general harassment,
    interference with visitation/phone calls, and you name it.  Finances
    have prevented long term visits, we've managed several 3/4 day visits 
    with the kids during the holidays, but that's been it.  We're going to
    Kentucky for the 4th - we're not even sure we'll get to see the kids
    -but they know we're coming to see them.
    
    We've survived it all - just yesterday was our 3 year 3 month wedding
    anniversary.
    
    In retrospect, the custody/visitation orders are not even worth the
    paper they're written on.  With her - its a game - either you play and
    get to see the kids - or you don't...  
    
    I've learned to accept the situation for what it is, love the kids from 
    a distance, do the best I can when I'm with them and during the rest
    of the time let go (repeat serenity prayer numerous times)...
    
    *hugs*
    
    joyce-off-to-read-the-rest-of-the-conference    

    
    Hi Joyce,
    Thanks for the update.  My sincere best of wishes to all involved.  And
    my highest respect to those who keep plugging along in spite of all
    the b.s.  Believe, the kids will know and it _will_ pay big dividends
    in the future.
    fred();

    Back once more...
    
    Need to do some searching on a few topics.
    
    joyce

    p.s. thanks for the welcome
    
    j