Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Friday morning, Nov. 15, 1991 I went to court with a friend to give
    testimony to for him. He had been asulted by his estrained wife. It
    happened on June 1, 1991 around 6:30-7pm. We were on a routine pick up
    of his children. He held the suport check out to his ex, and she
    snached the check out of his hands with her right hand. Then with a
    left hook, slapped him in the face. It looked like something out of
    Rocky. As in sweat and other body fluids flow from his fact into the
    air about him. He got his composure and got back from his knees.
    Pointing a finger at her saying never do that agian. Well the outcome
    of this 'war of the roses' happened on friday morning. 
    
    The out come was that, because I was associated with my fathers rights
    group. That I have no credibility to this case. As in that I would
    fable stories, lie, cheat, even kill. Gee, anymore compliments will
    make my ego swell. :) And the ex's beu who was there was, suposingly
    standing behind her through this whole afair states that I was hidding
    in the bushs spying upon them. Me, a 6'2" @ 250lbs.... Hidding in
    bushs? Alleys yes! Bushs no.... Not enought to cover me...:)
    
    Bottom line, she got off scott free. Asulting is O.K. if your a woman??
    

    Re .2 George.
    
 >>>Asulting is O.K. if your a woman??
    
    	Aparently.
    
    However, Probably not a total loss.  She'll probably think twice 
    (or three times) before pulling this stunt next time.
    
    Next time get pictures, or preferably videos.
    
    fred();

    I wish I had a video recorder with me then. The wild part is that you
    see things, and you are show shocked to see them that you don't believe
    that you saw them. Case in another point was that I also saw the
    ex's beau talking to the ex's sister in the hall when we were
    sequested! I tried to tell the prosecuter, but he wasn't accessable to 
    talk to.

    My ex tried that one time when I was picking up my daughter from a
    visit with her mother.  She reached over my daughter from the passenger
    side of the car and tried to grab me by the *alls.  I reached down and
    was lucky by getting both of her wrists with one hand while pounding
    her head into the dash board 3 or 4 times.  I then pushed her out of
    the car.  She came back in and tried again, my lucky day.  I then
    proceeded to slam her with my fist 3 or 4 more times again pushing her
    out of the car.  This time I started to drive away as she was hanging
    on to the open door.  Fortunately, my daughter had her seat belt on
    already.  Unfortunately, when the ex came in the car the first time she
    kicked the gear shift into reverse somehow so when I started to drive
    away the door slammed her into the ground.  The road was filled with
    slush being it was the middle of winter.  The next morning I went to
    court and filed charges against her for assault and battery.  The clerk
    of courts told her not to do it again or she would end up in jail. 
    Afterwards, she asked why I filed charges against her after I beat the
    s*it out of her.
    
    I don't recommend this type of action.  But then again, when it comes
    to self defense and the opportunity arises go for it.  Always make sure
    they are lured into your domain, it's much easier to prove self
    defense.
    

    I'm sorry but .4 does not sound like self defense to me.  I can think
    of a few ways you could have handled yourself better.  It is too bad
    that you and your wife had to do this in front of your daughter.  She
    will remember that incident for the rest of her life.
    

    George...
    This is not MENnotes.  Your response (.6) was offensive, coarse, and
    uncalled for.
    
    tony

    Tony,
    
    	I deleted it. But that was a very dumb responce to a very serious
    situation. What does .5 want? The woman grabbed him buy the bloody
    scrotum! He was trying to leave! She has him by a vunerable part of his
    body! And .5 say, handle it differntly? How? shoot her with hand gun?
    Unzip his fly so she can get a better handle on the subject? Perhaps
    he could say, "Dear, I know your angry with me, and I know that you
    have a yen for penis. But, not in front of our child?" Then pull out a
    hand gun and send her to the great beyond. Do you think that .5 has a
    clue of what kind of pain that this man was going through? Do you think
    that this person could of handled it differntly? I would be inlightened
    to hear any responce.

    George,
    
    If you reread the note, you will see that the ex *TRIED* to grab him
    "buy [sic] the bloody scrotum".  Nowhere does it say that she succeeded.
    I agree with .5 that this should have been handled better.  The
    slamming her 3 or 4 times with his fist is the part I find offensive.
    
    Furthermore, I don't see the constant "shoot her with a gun" especially
    constructive either.  Don't get me wrong, the thought of my boyfriend's
    ex disappearing off the face of the earth does have a certain appeal,
    (yes, he and I could tell more than our share of stories and they are
    continueing as I write), I guess I'm just not much for violence and
    my boyfriend and I do our best to set that example for the kids!
    Particularly since they are seeing it at their mother's!
    
    I guess I see it as 2 wrongs don't make a right...  And most of all,
    like .5, I believe that this stuff should be avoided in front of the
    kids at all cost!
    
    Lesa (donning the asbestos suit!)

    Lesa,
    
    	What would you recomend to a situation like this? Ball is in your
    court.

    I would have recommended covering my crotch, leaving after the first
    attempt she made, rolling up the window, or even a push if necessary 
    so that I could leave.  How about telling her to keep her hands to
    herself?  Certainly he had a right to defend himself, but "slamming
    her 3 or 4 times" is not, in my opinion, defending himself.  I 
    interpret "slamming" to be slugging or hitting someone.
    
    Please don't get the impression that I am condoning what the woman in
    this case did.  I think she may have a screw loose!  And certainly she
    is doing damage to her child.  But I figure the more the other parent
    in this situation can maintain their composure the better for the
    child.  Bad enough one parent is violent!!!  The other parent should
    (again, in my opinion) do everything they can to impress on the child
    that that is not his or her way of doing things.
    
    Tough situation, no doubt!
    
    Lesa

    Thank you Lesa. Certainly I too would not recomend violence either.
    But, lets not forget that the man was doing what he was on inpulse too.
    Cannot predict how anything is to turn out. Arm chair quarterbacking is
    the term for what we are doing here. But it can or may help us all if
    the situation arises.
    
    Agian, what can we really say about what goes on. It was what the
    situation was at the time, and time and time agian, the role play would
    be different from one person to the next.

    Very True! 
    
    Lesa

    George, can you at least see that such actions on the part of adult (?)
    parents should be avoided in front of the child?
    
    My ex and I got into a loud verbal battle one Christmas eve when I was
    picking up the kids for our time together.  Thank goodness neither one
    of us is into physical violence, because our verbal violence was enough
    to send my daughter running crying down the street to her friend's
    house.  She spent the night there rather than with either one of her
    parents.  I know I didn't sleep much, and I'm afraid she didn't either. 
    My ex?  Who knows. 
    
    I'm not proud of my part in the altercation and I'll have
    nightmares for the rest of my life over the hurt we caused her while we
    were exercising our egoes.  Neither she nor I can approach Christmas
    without remembering that shameful scene.  I don't even want to think what 
    trauma physical violence would have caused her.
    
    I suppose maybe we all have to make these mistakes and see the start
    terror in our children's eyes before we get smart enough to realize
    that THEY are the victims.  THEY are hurting more than any of us.
    
    Karen
    

    Karen,
    
    	Of course I can see the point of violence infront of the child. I
    have never gotten physical, once, verbal, but the child was very very
    young. And now, I keep things to a very professional level. Business
    only. No tomfoolery. But I cannot understand that one can say to this
    man in an earlier note that such a thing can be avioded. So, I got
    upset. As in many women think that physical violence is a mans issue.
    When its *BOTH* parties. It takes two of you to tango. And yes,
    if you wanna fight over something. Call your attorney. 

    It's been a while since I've been into this notesfile but you all sound
    like you know what you're talking about.  Ha.  Try this, seat yourself
    in the driver's side of a sports car with a center console the electric
    seat is up close to the steering wheel, you're sitting with the
    steering wheel in your lap in a very comfortable driving position, you
    stop to pick up your daughter, she get's into her carseat the ex puts
    on her seatbelt while yelling obscenities at you, you agree with every
    word thinking the whole time by not saying a word "close the door and
    get outta my face".  You're not even looking at the ex-@#$%, out of the
    corner of your eye you see her lunging at you like a scene from the
    shining, you turn to look and she has you by the balls, two hands I
    might add, a few loose screws is rather mild.  Did you ever try to make
    a crazy person let go of you, good luck, you have 2 choices, drive away
    with her hanging on probably seriously injuring her or killing her and
    going to jail for vehicular homicide, or door #2 pound the crap out of
    her until she let's go hoping that someday your daughter will realize
    that your ex-@#$% was a nut case and forgive you for being so violent
    in which case you only risked being dragged into court for assault.  No
    weapon such as a car involved of course.  I suppose there is door #3,
    oh honey would you please let go of my family jewels, I may need them
    some day and this soprano voice just doesn't fit me.  This is the
    choice I'm sure a lot of you critcizors would pick, at least until you
    had to perform the act in which case your violent side would come out
    except that you probably would never tell anybody about it because they
    would feel you a lesser person.  I don't feel any guilt about any of
    what I have done and for you religious believers there was plenty of
    violence in the bible otherwise, where did the story of Noah's Ark come
    from, was this not an act of violence.
    
    

    Welp..... As said earlier! You could just ask her not to do such
    naughty things! Or could you cover your b*lls will your hand?? Gee.....
    Perhaps you could have sent an RSVP in reguards to your arival, and not
    having her grab you by the hooo-hooo's..... Or perhaps you could get
    one of those Earth Catalogue pop rock pee-pee's. Like get the plaster
    cast of Jimmy Hendrix, or Jim Morris! Like her rip that out of your
    fly! Sorry to get so crude....

    
    I am what this note states, " A FATHER IN DIVORCE". I am the father of
    2 sons ages 9 and 6. I, like many others in this file, have the horror
    stories too. I, also, like many of you have/are/am going thru moments
    with the "ex" that we probably ask ourselves, "why is she/he doing
    this or that" ? 
    
    I find it the utmost rediculous,BS(ness), and down right appauling to
    see my boys suffer the way they are forced to, not get/have the
    necessary essentials to live. My summation of the style of proper
    clothing of my 2 sons I veiw as " refugees are better dressed". I have
    paid out the support to the ex but I don't see results going to the
    boys (as what I feel it should be), but the ex, after several cries
    of not being able to afford this or that, wanting more support, etc
    etc., drives a $20,000.00 auto. I can't get 2 pair of pants for the
    boys from her. Oh, yes, I have 3-4 times, gone out to get proper
    clothes for my boys. Several other areas of concern exist as well, but
    I won't go into them. 
    
    I guess all I need to know is "Why do these 2 small children have to
    suffer like this at the hands of their own parents" ? I can't
    understand this at all.......... Does anyone have any ideas to share
    ???
    
    Doug

    Doug,
    
    This part of your story is also not new to non_custodia parents
    This is why one of the major goals of NCP advocates is to get 
    accountability of child support from the CP.  However, current
    political climate is heavily tilted in favor of collecting from
    "deadbeat dads" and heaven help the man who dares criticise the
    "poor downtrodden mother".  Current Federal legislation will 
    make ita Federal offense to not pay child support.  
    
    All I can say at this time is keep speaking out.  Keep trying.
    If children have the right to have the NCP pay child support,
    they also have the right to make sure that the CP does not steal
    their livelyhood.
    
    fred();

    
    Fred,
    
    Thanks Fred.
    
    I certainly agree that the CP (no matter male or female) should account
    for the support received. Afterall, supposedly I am supporting my sons
    (twice I might add), NOT their mother. I don't agree with people when
    they tell me that support includes, rent/mortgage, phone, lights, heat,
    cabel, auot insurance etc., because she would have these bills
    regardless if there were kids involved, or even if we NEVER married.
    I don't have anyone paying my bills, or supporting my sons when they
    are with me !! She has 3 times the spending as I do and yet you'd never
    know it by looking at these boys. 
    
    Case in point:
    
    About a year ago I was in court (10th time) and the subject of support
    increase came up. I flew thru the ceiling (professionally - if that's
    possible). She had a 6-8 thousand dollar increase in pay, (job change),
    Remarried for additional approx. 30,000.00 , plus the big support I
    pay. I pushed quite heavy on this and as a result the amount got
    reduced. Not much , but it did. She and her attorney had the audacity
    to tell the court that they wanted me to account for the difference
    the new support amount was. In turn, I said something like " You got to
    be kidding". The court said, " Lady, if anyone should have to account
    for where any funds are going, it will be YOU !", This man has been 
    paying for 3+ years and as I see it, pays a very health sum and is
    current at all times in his payments." 
    
    Yep, I still think "they" should have to account for support,
    legitimately , and the world will then see that it does NOT take
    these large amounts of support payments to raise kids. If the amount
    is less, I think the support should be adjusted to what the actual cost
    spending is, NOT including her trip to the bahamas, Hawaii, etc. ..
    
    What do I know tho, I'm only a FATHER IN DIVORCE.......
    
    thanks again Fred, even listening/responding is a help. Don't ever say
    you " don't have much help for whoever, In my mind you do.
      
    
    Doug

    I can agree that *some* of the rent, etc should come out of the 
    "child support", but I cannot agree that *all* the rent, etc should
    come out of the "support".  If the CP is imployed and is able to
    live in a (for example) $2000/mo appartment, then the child support
    should not be uset to pay, say 2/3 of that rent and then say "gee all
    the child support went on rent".  The CP must provide their fair share.
    The CP (and their S.O) should not be allowe to live off of the
    "child support".  
    
    My ex sat on the witness stand and admitted that both she and her
    "husband" were unemployed their only support was AFDC and "child
    support".  The judge basically did nothing.  I still get $#@!%ed 
    every time I think about that one.
    
    fred();

    Every time I read about these cases of child support money going to
    support fancy life-styles of the custodial parent, I bless myself and
    my lawyer for being hard-nosed during the divorce crap.  My ex and I
    haven't had -- nor have we had reason to have -- any problems with
    child support usage or adjustments in 10+ years.  Maybe we are lucky,
    but then again, maybe we were smart.  
    
    What we did was to insist that the divorce decree state (paraphrased--I
    don't have the decree here to quote) "both parties to this action agree 
    that it is their intent to share the necessary expenses of child
    support equally.  Necessary expenses are defined as food, clothing, and
    after-school child care.  [Note: medical expenses were covered
    separately, and I gave up my share of the equity and interest in
    the marital home for 12-16 years as my contribution to housing.]  To
    this end, each party shall give to the other an annual accounting of 
    the necessary expenses incurred, and the child-support payment shall be
    adjusted--upward or downwards--accordingly each year."
    
    It's worked like a charm.  Sure, we have to keep records, but we've 
    never been back to court for support adjustments.  We can each give 
    the children the "extras" like vacations, bicycles, "luxury" clothing, 
    etc. as we want to and can afford, and for the most part, there has 
    been little or no bitterness and recriminations over child support.  It
    has also held up and been reasonable through remarriage by both of us
    and periodic unemployment by both of us.
    
    Was it timing?  Is it because of our unusual situation of the mother
    being the NCP?  Was it because, at least on this issue, we could
    negotiate in good faith while our world was falling apart?  Is this 
    type of agreement possible today?  
    
    If so, I'd encourage any of you who are counseling NCPs still in the 
    divorce process to push for it.  
    
    Karen   
            

    re .22 karen
    
    You were very fortunate.  With today's laws using "guidelines" to 
    determine "child support" and stiffer and stiffer penalties for not
    paying support, unless the divorce is *very* amiable, the chances
    of reaching this kind of agreement built into a divorce decree are
    about the sames as the perverable snow ball in a hot place.
    
    However, can't hurt to ask.
    fred();