Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Children are told things of the opposing party that should never be
    said. Children, the pawns, are fed BS by the bitter person. Thing to do
    is never get into a discusion about the other parent. If your kids are
    alinating you there were things to do with card writing, buying T
    shirts with "I LOVE DADDY/MOMMY" on it. Etc..
    
    Yes, its abuse. And if there is document proff of such, in N.H. a law
    suit of "alenation of affection" can be brought upon your ex for some
    wild amount of money! And it does have a good effect. 
    

    re tony,
    
    According to Colorado law anyway (and probably also where you are at
    since a lot of attention has been made in the last few years to make
    the divorce/custody laws "uniform") change of custody can be granted
    because "the emotional development of the child has been impaired".
    
    One of the reasons that I used for change of custody was that the
    interfernce by the CP in the relationship of the children and NCP
    constitutes mental abuse of the children and interferes with the
    emotional development of the children.  The children have a right
    to know their NCP and maintain a realationship with them.
    
    The first time I went for change of custody, I lost, but a lot of
    the B.S. stopped because I had given notice that I wouldn't put
    up with it.  However, don't go into this unless you are willing
    to go all out and all the way (to court that is).  If you're bluffing
    and the CP finds it out, your goose is cooked.
    
    This type of argument will be hard to prove.  1) are the kids doing
    poorly (more than usual or before) in school? 2) are they getting
    into trouble with the law or demonstrating other socially unaccaptable
    behavior? 3) are they having trouble making/keeping friends? 4) are
    they getting any counseling form school or otherwise?  5) DOCUMENT
    keep a diary as it were,  put down what, when, where, who.  Write
    down your feelings and impressions and why you believe this is
    happening (ie "this is totally different from his/her behavior the
    last time we talked/met").  Hopefully you can establish some sort
    of pattern that the court or an expert witness can recognize.
    
    This type of argument will be difficult to prove in court.  You'll
    need an "Expert" witness that will be willing to testify that in
    his/her "expert" openion the children are being harmed.  This is the
    one thing my lawyer failed to do in my first change-of-custody.  The
    judge told me "you have shown me that all this is going on, but you
    haven't shown me that it is hurting the children".  I'd pitched a
    no-hitter--and lost.  But at least some of the B.S. stopped.
    
    fred();

    ....and if you can stop some of the BS its still a win for the kids and
    yourself.

re: Note 119.0                       Is this abuse?                        3 replies
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>have is "intuition" that your ex is brain-washing your kids?

    Even if the "ex" were not intentionally manipulating the kids minds,
    children (according to my resources - counselors and psychologists),
    the children wil still tend to act in sympathy with the custodial
    parent. If the custodial parent (cp) hates, dislikes, etc the
    non-custodial parent, the children will 'pick up' on that, and act
    'in sympathy' with the CP.
    

>Is there any recourse for this type of behaviour?  If only she would
    
    No. Even 'alienation of affection' won't stand up in court. The only
    effetive defence is be as close as possible .. visits, phone calls,
    letters, emotional support .. from afar its exacerbated by the
    distance ...

>any court agree?  CAN anything be done...?  Besides me "waiting it out"
>because "things will get better"?????
    
    I know of two cases .. both very close relatives .. where in one
    case, the daughter came to her father 20 years after the divorce (and
    two weeks after her mothers death, to reconcile things with her Dad.
    
    In the second case, the daughter came to her father after many
    unsuccesful overtures by her brother to 'reconcile' the family, after
    15 years. In the second case, the reunion seems to be going well. In
    both cases, the childrens Custodial Parent had told their children
    (or their children felt) that if they were to see the NCP, the CP
    would have a bad change of health, or even die. One may say this is
    irrationale, however, how many really ratinale children are there in
    the world ?

    Divided families are the toughest on married children, because its
    very difficult for them to plan family activities with the
    CP & NCP's grandchildren ...

    There's guy in Leominster who can tell you lots more on this ..
    
    Bob  Early
            
    
    
    

   Is it abuse?  Yes.  Can you do anything about it?  Not that I know of. 
   Keep trying to be there for your children. Keep trying the things you are
   trying.  Hope and pray a lot.  And know that you are doing the best you
   can.

   I have a similar problem with my ex.  He has been undercutting me for
   years.  He either does it blatantly, or sometimes he can be very subtle
   about it.  I hear about it from my kids.  Sometimes, my daughter has
   already thought things through and has formed her own opinion about it. 
   Sometime we discuss it.  I may not always agree with her but often I am
   very pleased that she has looked at both sides and even considered views
   from her school friends and has decided for herself.  

   My son, I'm not so sure about.  He appears to have resolved "the issue"
   by being one person with me and another person with my ex.  As far as I
   can tell, he doesn't talk about family things with *anybody*.

   I have an advantage over you, Tony, in that I live in the same city as my
   ex.  I see my kids often.  The message of who I really am vs. the stuff
   they get fed from my ex gets reinforced on a regular basis.  If they
   lived all the time with my ex and could not call me whenever they wanted,
   I don't know what it would be like and I don't know what I could do about
   it.  As it is, I often feel helpless and frustrated.

   Now my ex is doing the same thing with his new wife, undercutting her,
   verbally abusing her, etc.  What kind of message is he giving to my kids? 
   How can I temper that with my own message?  I can't do much, but I do
   what I can.  And no, I don't believe the legal system can do anything for
   me or for my kids.  It isn't right, and I don't know what I can do about
   it. 

   My daughter will sometimes ask me what I think about things her father
   does and says with her new stepmother.  I'll often explain how I would
   approach it, what I might say, do, etc.  More often these days, I ask her
   what she would do.  I do not talk about her father or condemn or condone
   his actions, I just say how I would respond in a similar situation. 
   Mostly, I give her the chance to talk about it without judging whatever
   she is saying.

   It's not easy.  From what I've read from you, Tony, you seem to be a
   kind, caring father who often bends over backwards for his kids and is
   trying to do the right thing by his children and his new family.  It's
   frustrating and disappointing, but frankly, I don't know what more you
   could possible do other than what you are doing already.  It would
   certainly help if your ex understood that she is abusing her children by
   hating you.  They will always be part of you, and therefore, they will
   learn to hate that part of *themselves* that is anything like you.  How
   can that be healthy?


   							Terza

    Being an adult who lived thru what your children are living thru now, I
    can add that your constant show of love and concern for your children
    will have its rewards, however far down the road.
    
    My father was harrassed so much by my mother about visitation, child
    support, his family, etc. that he gave up and stopped communication
    with me.  I can see both sides of this as an adult but when I was a
    child I bought into my mother's hatred of him 100%.  The other factor
    at work was that if I even thought of disagreeing with her, I was beat
    into submission.  
    
    If you keep the lines of communication open there will be a day
    (probably as adults) when they will understand the situation and love
    you for you and not for what they have been told about you - I
    guarantee it.
    
    Good luck.
    Susan
    

Hi, gang...
Thanks for all the replies.  Your support means a lot.

I guess I could have predicted the responses, though... but, it is so DAMN
frustrating to be stuck in this situation, that I was reaching for any straw
which might blow by.

I have started a diary.  At present, I am trying to keep it daily, and also
putting stuff from the past in it...with dates and all.  So, right now, it is
just dialogue with myself.  But, as I understand it, the purpose is to serve as
a "reminder" of events/feelings which have occurred in the course of every day,
so I can refer to it if needed.  It'll take a bit of discipline to maintain,
since I've never kept a diary before (except on my honeymoon a couple of years
ago...but, that's another story!)  8*)

I'll try to keep on keeping on.  It's more difficult when they won't talk, but,
I'll keep in touch with whatever means I've got.  I like the idea of small
occasional gifts... T-shirts and the like... for no special occasion.  I
already send cards, and write on occasion.  But, sometimes it seems like my
letters have a tendency to be "defensive".  Like I'm trying to explain why or
how something happened.  I need to protect against that.

I am also guilty of feeling "guilty".  If you know what I mean.  for example:

My wife and I recently built an addition on our home.  And we also built a log
home in Vt. late last summer.  It cost a LOT of money, of course...and we went
into hock up to -here- to do it... and we worked VERY hard.  

But, this whole topic is taboo, because my kids now think that if dad can
afford to do all THAT, why can't he fly down here at will?  

I know from experience with my two older sons that "this too, will pass" is 
true.  Steven (married now, living 250 miles away from mom) has told me on
several occasions, that he felt immediate relief upon leaving home... he now
confesses that he knows mom is manipulative... and had a direct bearing on how
he felt when living home... And now, living away, has a much clearer vision of
what reality is.  At least he says so... now he sees that the divorce was the
result of BOTH of us contributing to a bad marriage... and not just dad's fault
alone.  And he sees a lot of other stuff, too.  For that I am truly grateful,
and he and I have grown a lot closer as a result.  (not in miles,
unfortunately). 

Patrick is the maverick of the family, and has pretty much tried to be
objective all along... it flies in the face of his mom most of the time, and
they are constantly at each other's throats, but he and I have an excellent
relationship.

But, the older daughters (one living in Germany, and the other still at home)
are a different story.  I've pretty much "given up" on Robin (Germany)... she
is so much LIKE her mom, that approaching her is impossible.  Dana, (20 and
still living at home) is also "divorced" from me.  But, it is entirely her
decision.  She is very hurt/angry, and I hope she will come "home" some day.  


But, it is the little kids that I am really frustrated over.  They are 12 and
15, and are totally defenseless in this.  I understand exactly what "in
sympathy" means, Bob... in my mind I "know" all this... but, there agony and my
frustration over it are still a burden.  

And that burden is what caused me to wonder aloud in the base note if there
wasn't SOMETHING could be done!  It is so damn hurtful to see these kids 
treated this way.  

I don't CARE how my ex treats ME.  But, I *do* care how she treats my kids.

Try to prove abuse?  

We are talking about a woman (the ex) who has raised nearly 200 foster children
(165 of them before I left).  We're talking about a woman who "loves" kids and
takes abused, handicapped, difficult children into her home.  We are talking
about a woman who is a "respected" community member... who has been "sought
out" for her expertise on child-rearing.  We are talking about a woman who has
been an invited guest on Phil Donahue (we were there a few years ago, when he
had a show on hard-to-adopt children)...

No court would DARE to accuse "ms. perfect mother" of "abusing" her own kids!

And, the thing is... she IS "ms. perfect mom" for those children... they are
all BABIES and can't talk back!  And she is in TOTAL CONTROL of them.  No
wonder, she has to remain in TOTAL CONTROL of her older children.

Well, it's time for me to shut up, now.. I'm getting angry again.

Thanks, all ... for you words and for caring.  and sharing.

BTW.. Terza, thank you for your kind words... I "envy" you being able to see
your kids often... and admire you for the position you take with them.

good to you all!


Tony

   Thanks, Tony.  It was comforting to me to read that there is a "light at
   the end of the tunnel" by what your two oldest have relayed back to you.

   Keep the faith.  (I have to say that to myself, too.)


   							Terza

    FWIW, this is TERRIBLY similar to what my children have gone through.
    Their mom is a Ph.D. Psychologist (need I say more?).
    
    Among the things I did: 1) when they were small and their mail kept
    "getting lost", I told them that I would send them a letter or card
    each month with an "allowance of $1 in it (then I kept my promise),
    suddenly, the mail worked, 2) Never miss a visitation, 3) phone on a
    regular basis (once I forced her to give me the phone number through
    the courts), and 4) NEVER, EVER said anything worse about their mother
    than "she can be a little strange sometimes" which I said in an
    appropriate context.  
    
    So where are we now?  Well the older one (18) still lives with mom, but
    can't wait to graduate from high school and go to college (AWAY from
    home), whe says she thinks her mother is mentally ill.  We have a good
    relationship, communicate frequently and congenially, and she shows her
    trust for me/distrust for her mother in little ways such as asking me
    to hold her savings bonds which she gets by payroll deduction from her
    part time job.   The younger (16 see other notes in this file) is now
    living with me and I can see improvement in her attitude, health and
    general outlook on life.  She does not "hate" her mom (but I suspect
    she will eventually, which is why I am trying to get her started in
    counseling asap).
    
    What should you get from this?  Well, children can usually see more
    clearly than we suspect.  Given time, they often come around.  It will
    almost certainly be painful and tedious, getting through this.  You
    cannot do much beyond be there, be kind, and do your best.
    
    Take care.
    jimc

    
    	Tony,
    		I haven't seen the light at the end of the tunnel but
    I do see a glimmer of hope in my situation.  We got a log of grief
    from the ex after I remarried and moved into a large house and out
    of the townhouse that we started out in (mostly to make more room 
    for my two boys when they visited and give them a yard to play in).
    It was like was mentioned earlier, 'if daddys so rich how come...?'.
    	We have been VERY careful not to be critical of the ex.  They
    are, like has been said, very observant children and can see the
    truth.  We have majored on loving them when we have them and have
    tried to steer away from entertaining them when they come to just
    being a family when they are around.  I am sure (no proof) that they
    have been brain-washed against my wife (she's not your mother) and 
    her son [I adopted him] (he's not your brother).  But we ignore it
    let them know the truth and things are beginning to smooth out.  We 
    have a looong way to go but I trust we will make it.
    
    	Ed

    Well, here's the plan.  I've only got a few minutes to write this
    reply, so, I'll just hit the tops:
    
    the visit to Texas went "ok".  On a scale of 1 to 10 it was about a
    6.5.  My ex and I had "words"..
    
    So, I am doing two things:
    
    1.  I am resuming counselling for my self.  I can't go on feeling all
    the dislike/hate feelings I have and I suspect I antagonize the
    situation somewhat.  So, no matter what "she" does, with or without the
    kids, I am going to try to "get well" myself and resolve some of the
    issues presented by my own feelings.  I think that'll help some.
    
    2.  I am hiring a lawyer in San Antonio to file for a motion to change
    my divorce decree.  As it stands, specific visitation "dates/times,
    etc." are not spelled out.  That has got to change, to force her to let
    me have the kids.  Then, if she still interferes I'll go for custody. 
    My lawyer tells me there will be no problem at all changing the divorce
    decree.  Texas law is on my side here.  She also tells me that I have
    at least a 50-50 chance of getting custody if I fight for it.  It'll
    cost an arm and a leg and I may have to hock the homestead.  But, my
    wife is TOTALLY supportive and that is a real blessing.
    
    
    film at 11.
    
    tony

    Tony,
    
    Kudo's to you for realizing that you need to take care of you. Your
    children will benefit in having a "healthy" parent. As for your ex,
    it's a shame that we as humans must lash out at others when we can not
    come to terms with our own life, and the changes that have occured. 
    
    I have learned thru your input and many others here, that I should not
    put my children in the middle of my issues with my ex. It only hurts
    the children, the ones I love. I am a custodial parent and a
    step-parent with custody of step-children. I need to handle my own
    issues of fear, jealousy and hurt and not take it out on either ex. And
    most certainly not on my current. Our relationships all around have
    gotten better, thru work on ourselves. 
    
    Chin up and hugs .... I hear you love real tortillias, When in Santa
    Clara, let me know and I'll make you and Brenda a batch!
    
    Mia
        

    Well, it's nearly exactly one year since I entered the base note in
    this string.  It's been a long one.
    
    I filed the suit.  My ex was served papers in Sept. 91.  The S*it hit
    the fan and it was straight down hill from there.  The kids revolted. 
    The ex filed counter-suit... lawyers were hired, and a LOT of money
    spent... it was like reading the script from a play... all exactly to
    plan and exactly as predicted.  There were tons and tons of terrible
    things said, and a lot of pressure exerted from the family.
    
    My ex requested a jury trial (can you believe it?), and my lawyer
    successfully stopped that.  Three Fridays ago, I was to have a telephone 
    deposition taken, and had no hope that things
    would be resolved peacefully... I was primed to go to Texas for the
    required arbitration meetings, and the hearing the which had been
    scheduled for the first week in April.
    
    Three days before the telephone deposition was to be taken:
    
    My ex called me in tears, nearly hysterical.  One of my older sons had
    come to her with a problem (I won't tell you what it was, but, imagine
    the worst thing possible, and you're probably right) that had
    devastated her.  I reacted the same way, initially.  
    
    Brenda (my wife) and her daughter decided to press me to ask my son to
    move up here for a period of time, and I called my ex and made the
    offer.  She was stunned.
    
    Two days later, my ex (her name is Peggy) called Brenda (yes! there is
    a light at the end of the tunnel!) and they spoke for a LONG time. 
    That weekend, Peggy told me that after talking with Brenda, she felt
    like "all the hostility had left her body"... and that is a direct
    quote.  She said she felt like a huge weight had been removed from her.
    
    They have talked a total of four times now.  Peggy has verbally
    admitted to Brenda that she had been denying she felt hostility, and
    felt so much better now that she had stopped denying and was over it.
    
    Now, Peggy, through her lawyer, has agreed to the terms of the law
    suit, and we are settling out of court!  
    
    She has given my young children "permission" to talk to me again, and
    we are having the best time talking that we ever had... And, get this: 
    Peggy, is talking to them about them coming up to visit me and Brenda,
    and she is willing to pay for one of my oldest kids to accompany the
    younger ones on that trip!
    
    My, oh my, how things do change, sometimes.
    
    Thank you, Lord... and now will you please help my other son, too? 
    Thank you.
    
    Thanks to all of you out there in notes-land, too.  For your support,
    for your concern, and for your help.
    
    
    tony

    Congrats Tony.  Best of luck for you, your son, and the rest.
    fred():

    sounds like quite a miracle!

Happy for you Tony !

Leslie

    :-)  Congratulations Tony!   :-)
    
    Karen