Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    John,
    
    	Take a ride out there and talk to folks. Find out what is the real
    problem. Are they having troubles in school, is there a boy-friend of
    the Ex who is being a pest or what ever. Is she married to another man
    who is a pest or what ever. Is there some serious problems going on
    in the home that the kids are not opening up to. Can you find out
    through the schools that they attend. Can you find out anything about
    the ex's cronies? Sounds like a big shopping list.

    I agree with -1.  
    
    But, I'd also like to add:  Don't force your children (even
    unwittingly) into having to make a "choice" between mom or dad.  My
    father made me make that same choice when I was 11, and I have always
    resented it.  Kids that age shouldn't have the burden of such a
    responsibility.
    
    Work this out with your ex, and with Cindy *before* you elevate or
    change the kids expectations.  And don't allow them (the kids) to be
    pawns or leverage in any negotiations.  
    
    Perhaps your ex would welcome a reprieve "for a while" and allow the
    kids to live with you without a big hassle being made?  Many custody
    changes have been approached using the "let me do you a favour"
    technique as opposed to the "I'll see you in court before you get them"
    technique.
    
    good luck!
    
    tony (also_the_father_of_six)

    CONGRATS!!!!!!!  It's so good to hear that you are making a new life
    and can love again.
    
    
    I agree that you should not set the children's expectations until you
    have explored the topic both with your ex and legally.  Perhaps you
    should start off slowly by taking the children for week(s) at a time
    and summers.  This could have a positive effect on the children but
    also on your ex since she will have more 'free' time but not really be
    'giving up control' which is what she seems to need right now.  
    
    I know having your children at your wedding will make it more special
    but remember that they have seen their mother re-marry and that didn't
    turn out too well.  Their expectations sound very high.
    
    Happy Thanksgiving and I wish you the B E S T.
    
    Susan
    

Re all

Thanks for the fast response.


She's re-married and all the children seem to like him ok.  No problems 
have ever come up with him.  From what I can gather from the childrens
grandfather, this guy is ok; it hard to go from zero to 6 at age 26.

I don't believe there is any reasoning with my ex.  Ever since she learned of
the marriage plans, she's been very vindictive.  My oldest complains that she
cuts me down in front of her.  She vows that I will never have them outside
of visitation.

Through the eyes of my children this is what is happening:
 Mom is asleep in bed all the time (she only works part time)
 She spends little time with them.  
 Complains she is too tired.
 Each child has to do their own laundry; sometimes wearing dirty clothes
   for several days.
 Breakfast and lunch are "help yourself", dinner is hit or miss.  
 Mom makes dinner half the time (ie. when she's home) but it is late 9:00 or 
   10:00pm.
 Bedtimes are non-existant.  Sometimes they go to sleep at 2:00am on a school
   night.
 There is little if any discipline from mom.  My oldest does that.
 It's obvious to the children that their moms marriage is on the rocks.
 There's no money, not even a stamp to mail a letter to dad (me).  
 The ex has increased her smoking habit more than double when we were married.
   So if she can double her smoking, why can't they mail a letter?
 Mom will start nursing school and they expect everything to get worse.  They
   dread it.

I guess that's why my oldest wants out.  She sees her mom not doing very
much other than sleep.  

Now she feels the burden and responsibility for her 5 siblings.  She
is afraid that if she leaves, the rest will suffer greatly.  That is why we
have taken 6 months to discuss this and not rush into it.  I honestly feel
that she has tried to work things out with her mom to no avail.

My opinion:  The ex is stressed out with problems (work, marriage,
and debt - what's left?) that she is now hiding by sleeping a lot; an 
escape if you will.  She is in a clinical depression.  A bad one.  I have
talked to her directly about getting help and she refuses; always coming
up with an excuse.  What does she do now???  Talks to my oldest daugther about 
all her problems.  It's my daughter that's the adult here!


Re .1
I can contact their school, but how do I do it confidentially?  My oldest 
has made it clear that if I do something like that and their mom finds out
they will catch the brunt of it "just because".  I'll work on it though.
There's bound to be a way.

As for ex's cronies, she has none.  Her hubby has cut her off from friends.
She hasn't even talked to her best friend in weeks.  He appears to control 
her life.  She's not even allowed to drive the car.
Geez.  Listen to this!  On the one hand, I hear that he is "ok" on the other
hand he controls the ex to the nth degree!  What gives?


Re .2
Don't worry.  I won't make them choose.  If they want to come live with me,
they can, but not for any reason that would play me off against my ex.  I
have seen no evidence of that here.  Is this what you are concerned about?
What could (emotionally) happen if I tried to gain custody of all 6 at 
one time?


Re 3.
My oldest is in a bit of a crisis situation.  I suggested for her to come
during the summer for a few weeks to try it out, but she says she doesn't
know if she can last that long.  :-(


			Thanks,
			   John (who's_trying)

    John, is there a chance she will take advice from her own father?  You
    seem to have a good relationship with him.  Can you work around her
    thru him?  If he suggests help will she listen?  Is she still active in
    the church?  Can you go to the minister in confidence?
    
    Susan
    

Re .5 My!  You get on early!

I believe her father is frustrated at her as well.  I get the impression that
my relationship her parents is better than hers (strange eh?).  She won't talk,
in depth, to anyone including her parents.  What compounds this is that 
her father is also the minister.  She is not attending church regularly 
from what the kids tell me, but they do!  Neat!

I called children services the other day and but gave no names.  What I was
told was that there is neglect and it must be reported.  They assured me that
they would make an initial investigation within 24 hours.  I haven't gone
any further than to get information.  I promised my daughter that I 
would keep her informed if I called my lawyer or in this case child services. 
I mailed a letter stating what I found.  Given the way things have gone, I'll 
be making a call later this week (friday) after my daughter has had a 
chance to call me back.

Why I am going this route?  Well, all attempts to talk to my ex lead me to
believe that having a serious discussion concerning the kids would break
down terribly.  What past attempts did I make?  I can't stand the name calling,
etc. so I requested that someone be present of her choosing (I suggested her 
father or present husband) in order to put a throtle on the emotions and have
the chance to stick to business.  This was flaty denied though her husband
said he would do it.

I'm at wits end.  I've given this a lot of thought and believe that an outside
third party, impartial, is needed. 

Thanks for your reply.  Other suggestions are welcomed.  Is calling child 
services too drastic a thing to do or is it concensus that they are not
effective?

			Thanks,
			   John

    
    In New Hampshire they have a mediation process which can be
    used for divorced couples with children.  Perhaps you could
    find out whether that is available to you.  This can be
    expensive, but it is less costly than going back to court again.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    John,
    
    Jurisdiction over child custody resides in the state where the children
    are domiciled.  Once the children moved from Ohio, the state no longer
    had jurisidiction. The new state will normally honor the custody order of
    the original state unless it is shown that it is not in the best
    interests of the child(ren) to do so.  If you want to bring an action
    for change of custody, you would do it in W. Virginia.
    
    Polly
    

    John, in .6 you said you mailed a letter stating what you found.  I'm
    confused - who did you mail the letter to and what did you find?
    
    Understand, I'm confused because I'm tired.  I have a part-time job
    (approx 20 hrs) in addition to DEC full-time.  Also, I was on the
    Donahue Show yesterday (taped in NY).  I don't know when it will show
    exactly around the country but the topic was "controversial subjects
    taught in public schools".  I was the first person in the audience to
    ask a question to the panel and my other friend asked one also so we
    are on camera.
    
    Anyway, back to you.  Be careful if childrens services promises
    anonimity.  I called on a neglect case (my neighbor) and they did not
    reveal their source (as promised) but gave her enough detail on dates
    and times that she figured it out.  In reality, I don't care because I
    just wanted help for the child but they can blow it in a situation like
    yours.
    
    Good luck.
    

Re .8  My lawer said he would take care of changing custody with my 
oldest daughter since she is 15 and wants to move...He's in Ohio.  But I 
understand what you mean about WV honoring the OH decree.  I've already found 
that out.

Re .9 A letter to my oldest daughter about calling child svcs.  There is no 
phone so I am expecting her to call me from a friends tonight.

Neat!  Let us know when it will appear!  I am interested!



			Thanks,
			   John

    No phone?  Six children in the household, and no phone?  Is this for
    real or do they not want you to call?
    
    Just be careful that 'mom' doesn't get nosey and find the letter.
    
    
    P.S. I don't know when it will be on exactly in every market.  They
    said possibly Friday, Monday or Tuesday.  Check TV guide for a topic
    like 'contriversy in public schools'.
    
    

Hi Sue.  The phone is disconnected because the bill couldn't be paid.
Supposedly, it will be re-instated some time in Jan or Feb. 

My daughter did call last night.  We talked for a long time and it
was good.  She is caught between a rock and hard place so I simply
ended the call with a request not to worry, that I'll take of things.

fwiw-I'm not sure I care if her mom finds the letter.  Maybe it would
shake her up enough to get her act together.  Well...maybe not.

I called a friend of mine that is in social work.  Based on what she
said I will give the school counselors a chance on this instead of
child services.  She gave me a few tips so I'll use them.


			Thanks,
			   John

    Hey, John...  you must be married by now!!!  Hope everything went
    well and that things with the kids are going smoothly.  I haven't
    been in this file for ages and ages, but I was pleasantly surprised
    this morning to see this note.  My heart goes out to you and your
    kids and I truly hope their situation gets better.  Cindy sounds
    like a very special woman.  Write back and let us know what's going
    on if you have a chance.
    
    - Kathryn
    

Re .13  Hello and welcome Kathryn!

Things have settled out.  My daughter is welcome anytime she wants and
we'll just take things day by day.  The school counselors reported to me
that from their perspective everything is good for the children.  I didn't
imagine the problems I saw, but maybe once the emotion wass taken out, it
really was as bad as it appeared.

I noticed one immediate improvement when we picked up the children. 
Each had their own toothbrush.  This may seem small, but some sort of 
signal was sent to their mom and maybe (I hope) she will continue.  I'll
keep checking though.

Christmas was very good with the children.  My oldest sister road in the
car with some of them on the way to the wedding.  Joshua (he's 6) kept
telling her that "we are going to be part of a real family" all the
way to the wedding.

After hearing that, I knew everything was worth it.  Yes, it was a lot of
work and expense, but it was definetly worth it!

We are crammed into a small condo and plan to move this summer into a 
house.  Cindy has started a new job.  Kreg (step son) is accepting
everything very well.  Aside from normal startup problems (i.e., who does
the dishes, wash, etc. - we all do!) and the stress imposed by a new job
(for Cindy), a big hassle with the bank, moving, and a financial problem 
(it's good to work on that with someone rather than alone), I'm happy.  
In fact, very happy!

Merry (belated) Christmas to all!

			   John

    Congrats!!!!
    
    Gosh, everything sounds so busy but a good kind of busy!  I just know
    you'll be successful in everything you do.  The children and Cindy are
    very lucky to have such a wonderful husband and father.
    
    Susan
    P.S.  Do you know any nice single guys like yourself in New Jersey? 
    Hey, what am I saying, if he's that nice and that single, I'll move!
    
    Love to all
    

Gads!  This is getting tiresome!  

Can I let off some steam???

The NoOp (i.e., ex) is like jekel and hyde.  I went to pick up the children
this past Saturday and due to the distance I had written a letter asking if
I could bring them home to sleep and then see them again the next day (at
225 miles away from where I live, putting 9 in a hotel doesn't work).

All I got was loud and hostile remarks about "the law" and if I took the
kids when I returned them the visitation was over.  Since it was my daughter's
birthday on Sunday I opted to not even see them on Sat. so we could
have the birthday party.  The NoOp promised my daughter (now 16) that everyone
could see me per my request.  But for some reason she became very pissed at me
and refused it.

I suspect the anger was due in part to that this was the first time I went
to see the children after getting married.  She's been re-married for over a 
year...

One time I talk to the NoOp and everything is calm and reasonable.  Another
time she is hostile.  As I look back, the only time she is "nice" to me is
when she wants to get something from me.  What gives?

This my sounds cruel, but this is so frustrating that I do believe I've
found a good use for a SCUD missle!

Thanks for letting me vent!

			   John

    John,
    
    The "NoOp" sounds like a very miserable person that wants to see you
    just as miserable as she is.  Even if she has to use her own children
    as tools to do it.  Hang tough.  Keep trying.  The only way she can
    "win" is to make you upset enough to either quit trying or do
    something stupid.  Your best "weapon" against her is do realize that
    you don't *have* to let this nuttiness affect you.
    
    fred();

Thanks Fred.

After I cooled off, it hasn't affected me nor has it occupied a lot of my 
thought time.  I wrote a letter last night concerning visitation and am 
simply going to stick to business.  I realize that I am past the emotional
outbursts she makes (don't get me wroing, I used to do them to) and for
the most part, I can ignore her.

Thanks for the support,
			   John