Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

   Hi Tom,

   I don't have any legal advice to give.  I just wanted to offer my moral
   support.  My ex and I worked out an agreement that when one of us goes
   out of town, the other one takes the kids.  So far, this has worked well. 
   Only once did we both have to be out of town on business and it was a one
   night/two day overlap.  We agreed on a babysitter to handle that night.

   As always, the best arrangement is the one that serves the kids' best
   interests.  Unfortunately, the definition of their best interests may
   vary widely.

   Good luck.


   							Terza

Yes, it's hard to tell how a court might view this.  He's unrelated, but part of
the kids' normal routine for those days.  And you mentioned the trips are just
overnight.

Also, how well would your kids deal with a lot of additional swapping back and 
forth, for unpredictable overnights?  Younger kids, in particular, seem to do 
better without a lot of changes in their daily routine.  Yes, I agree that 
nowadays their "routine" includes the regular overnight stays with you on 
Wednesdays and weekends.  Additional stays at random times when your ex is 
travelling, however, might be a bit harder to deal with, especially for the 4 
year old.

Um, mentioning this perhaps isn't too tactful, but there's no mention in your
basenote about how amicable a relationship you have now with your ex and/or her 
boyfriend.  Or whether *they* see their relationship as something permanent (she
may view her current travel setup as leaving the kids with a "step"parent) Or 
even how much the kids have to travel to stay with you instead.  Might any of 
these be a factor in her preferring to leave the kids at her home during these 
overnight trips?  

If you can talk together calmly, it might be worth discussing this with her.
Try to figure out if other options would be acceptable to you (and to her), and
present those, too.   And do try to avoid loaded phrases that imply neglect or
one-upmanship in parenting (or anything) - they tend only to anger the other
person, and make them (even) less likely to agree with you!

Good luck.  I hope you can reach a mutually agreeable solution.
		Helen

My suggestion would be to discuss it in a non-threatening, non-accusational
manner, with your ex, before pursuing any legal action.  She might not even
realize that you want the kids at those times.  Just mention to her that you
would love the opportunity to have the kids anytime she travels, and to please
call you first.  If she is ugly about it then you can decide how to approach
from there.

How long have you been divorced?  When my hubby first divorced, the ex did
not give him the kids many times when he would have loved to have them, and
it was inconvenient for her to have them (or she would tell him he can see
them ONLY if he comes to stay at HER house WITHOUT me!  What manipulation!!!).
Over the years she has mellowed and they often swap visitation or modify
the holiday schedule, etc., with no hassles.  Much healing has to take place
before you both will truly put ONLY THE KIDS (and not your personal feelings)
interest first!

Good Luck!
Kristen

    I quite agree with Kristen that you should try to work this out as
    flexibility between you (you might even discover that the boyfriend
    would prefer you to have the kids!).  I would guess a court would lean
    your direction, too, if it came to that.  You're wanting more time with
    the kids is a legitimate motivation, but you don't comment on what
    issues are important to the KIDS (do they like and trust this guy? 
    does it make a difference in their daytime routines?).
    
    I think Helen's concern (.2) with unpredictable swapping is reasonable,
    but this needn't be unpredictable.  My kids swap twice a week, with a
    basic underlying pattern, but fairly frequent variations to accomodate
    special circumstances.  They have no problem as long as there aren't
    surprises.  At first, we kept calendars at each end marked as to where
    they would be every night.  Now we just review upcoming variations from
    the norm, and remind them where they'll be the next Saturday night (our
    swing day).  We try to agree on variations a few weeks in advance, but
    this is more important to the _parents_ than the kids.
    
    		- Bruce

    Tom,
    
    If it comes to court, I would think that the court would lean in 
    your favor from what you've said in .0.  If they were married and
    the kids were staying with "stepfather" instead of "boyfriend" then
    it  may be a little different, but personally don't see any reason
    that the kids can't spend a little more time with you whild she
    is out of town anyway.  I agree with trying to work it out peacefully
    if possible, but if it were me in your place, I'd have to take it
    to court if I had to.
    
    fred()
    

    Let me give an opposing opion.
    The fact that you use the term "the unrelated man" sounds to me you see
    him very much as competition.  I am such an "unrelated man", and the
    natural father of my step daughter became more and more resentful
    towards me, the better my relationship with his daughter became.
    
    If this person is serious about building a relationship with your ex,
    and consequently with your boys, taking the kids everytime your ex is 
    not "physically present" does not sound like a good idea to me.  you
    may not like this, but 'that unrelated man' is entitled to some room
    and to spend some time alone even with your kids, in my opinion.
    Especially since it does not infringe at all on your previously agreed
    visiting times.  It is not happening at your expense.
    
    I think it is also important for children to have a fairly predictable
    schedule.  By the way, what do your boys say ?  A nine year old is
    often very capable of voicing his opinion !
    
    If you want to discuss this with your ex, try to involve 'this
    unrelated man'.  One of my big frustrations as a step parent has always
    been the efforts my wife's ex put in in trying to reduce the
    importance of me in the life of his daughter.  If you are there to help
    pay the bills, stay with them when they are sick, build a new family,
    organize the birthday parties, hold them when they hurt, you cannot be
    ignored.  And you will not accept that easily either. 
    And in the long run, I have been step parenting for 10 years now, it has
    seriously backfired on him.  Unfortunately, because my step daughter
    will suffer the most in the long run because of her damaged
    relationship with her father.
    
    Legally I have no idea where you stand, but it may be a hard and tough
    battle if you are really opposed.  And in Canada the opinion of children
    does count in court, if it comes to that.
    
    hope this helps, I do emphatize with you,
    
    Bart 
    

    CAUTION - HEATED RESPONSE !

    .6> but 'that unrelated man' is entitled to some room
    .6> [...] Especially since it does not infringe at all on your
    .6> previously agreed visiting times.  It is not happening at your
    .6> expense. 

       IMO you are kidding yourself.  It is happening at the NCP's expense.

       There are two keys to this situation:

       a) This is not a step-father, it is an unrelated male.  That
          implies to me that they are still working on their relationship
          and nothing is in cement.  I was a step-father for 16 years
	  and in my opinion there is a BIG difference between where YOU
	  are as a step-father and where the base noter's ex's SO is.

       b) Visitation, is it a maximum amount of time that the NCP gets, a
	  minimum amount of time, or a guideline?  In my opinion it is
	  the minimum amount of time.  If the CP is away for an hour, a
	  day, a week, a ..., the NCP is the next parent in line.  This
	  of course assumes that the NCP lives close enough to make it
	  workable.

    .6> If you want to discuss this with your ex, try to involve 'this
    .6> unrelated man'.

        Negotiate with your ex over what happens to the children, YES
        Negotiate with the step-parent, YES

        Negotiate with the current SO,  BUL*&%*T  These are not his
        kids!  All the NCP will get for this is a two on one fight.

       I apologize for the strong tone of this reply, but my blood
       boils on this issue.  Many times in the past 2 years my son has
       called me on the phone to say that his mother was going somewhere
       for the weekend and he wanted to stay with me, only to have her
       get on the phone and say "You can't have him unless ..."  When I
       didn't comply with the unless, my son wound up spending the weekend
       with one of the ex's girlfriends in the next state!  That is pure
       &*^%!  If the children are not with the CP, they should be with
       the NCP!  Everybody else comes later.

      ENERGY_LEVEL_Calming_down ...

           returning to normal ...

               Richard

    reply to .7
    
    Fortunately I wore my sunglasses, my eyes are still ok.
    
    In my original reply (.6) I just wanted to bring up some considerations
    from a rarely heard point of view, that of the step parent, who often
    in real life has a lot of the responsibilities, but absolutely no
    rights, at least no legal ones.
    
    The fact that your ex (.7) uses the child as a bargaining chip is low,
    and deplorable.  And it is the child which is the real victim !
    
    BUT, a person living with "an ex" is not necessarily an "unrelated
    male" (or woman for step mothers).  And it neither true that the NCP
    comes always first, the child does.  Janking it around to, I'll put it
    bluntly, satisfy the frustrated parenthood feelings of the NCP is not
    the proper way.  I am not saying this happens for Tom, it did happen
    too often in my situation.  And your feelings will get frustrated,
    very strongly so, it is almost inherent to divorce involving kids.
    
    I think also legally speaking, the visitation times is the max you'll
    get, unless you have agreed/negotiated otherwise (or when the
    understanding is better).   
    And to be frank, when you try to build a new family the NCP often sees
    that as a direct threat, and react accordingly.  And even if he/she did
    not, as a step parent you would not want him/her barging in if the CP
    is not "physically present" for an hour/day/weekend.  It will often
    seriously disrupt planned activities (parties/girl guides/sleep overs).
    
    And too often, my experience, NCP's say "I demand" when it is
    convenient, but rarely offer to help when it is inconvenient (that is
    just my experience, unfortunately).
    
    Bart