Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    I probably will get my ass shot off for this, but tell your ex that you
    would like to legally adopt the kids name. As in if your married to
    your present man, make his last name theirs. This is a simple thing and 
    it helped me. My dad died in a car crash on Christmas. 
    I had this problem too. I know of alot of devorced moms doing 
    this to make the family strong. If the
    ex balks at the idea, then maybe he will start paying more attention to
    the kids. But the lame head sounds like he doesn't give a damn about
    any one or thing execpt himself. But thats why the delema exist with
    the dads here. Some of us are responsible folk, some are not. Just like
    the mommies.
    
    Other tricks to help out your son is to get him involved with orgs that
    other children that have the same problem. Like I just joined Parents
    Without Partners. There is alot of help and there alot of free stuff
    that you cannot pay enough for. I am finding that my local church is
    also a big help. Try the basic's. 
    
    George 

    
    
    It really burns me up when parent's do not take an interest in their
    kids.  Unfortunately, as usual, the children are the ones to suffer.
    
    
    We do not have enough info to really guage what your son thinks of 
    his biological dad.  From what you stated however, it seems that he
    has accepted your current SO for his "daddy".  I doubt there is much
    you can do to help your son deal with this problem.  Maybe counselling
    could help.  
    
    I am living with a NC Dad.  His daughter and I are very close and she
    considers me in her words "her other mommy".  It bothers me to some
    extent because I do not want her to confuse my role in her life with 
    that of her mom.  Though I doubt she ever will.  Her dad and I are
    not married, but are seriously looking into it.  However, I know that
    if this does not happen that I will not be in her life if I decide
    to leave the relationship.  It is a fine line to walk.
    
    Your kids have expressed interest in having this man as their "daddy".
    Is that what he wants?  Is that what you want?  Are you contemplating
    marrying?  I don't think that your son truly misses his bio dad, but
    he may very well.  It looks more like him trying to manipulate both
    you and your SO into making your relationship permanent.  Kids are
    funny about this, and I think he is just acting out his frustration
    at not being able to make you , SO, and your kids all one big happy
    family.  
    
    
    Best of luck to all of you,
    Michele

    
    Re: .0
    
    Of course he misses his dad, but there's a good chance that you are
    right that he is confused.  People, not just children, have a great
    deal of difficultly identifying the source of confusing feelings. 
    
    Put yourself in his place, you have a "dad", but aren't clear on who
    he is or what he has to do with you since his involvement in your life
    is inconsistent.  This "dad" is someone you're supposed to love and
    want around, but this "dad" doesn't seem to want to have much to do with
    that.  Now along comes another guy who getting pretty close to your
    mom, who consistently shows an interest in you, and is "here" not "there"
    with someone else.  You start feeling pretty uncomfortable about all
    this.  Would that confuse you?  It would me, if I were six years old.
    
    The acting out that results in your needing to disclipine him is
    probably because of this confusion and that is his way of asking for
    help particularly when after he starts to cry he mentions missing
    "daddy" which probably seems to have nothing to do with the behavior he
    was disciplined for.  Little kids, and most adults for that matter,
    don't have the capacity to analyze what they are feeling and be clear
    about what they are upset about.
    
    Seems to me you might be on to something.  Kudos for your perception.
    
    Steve
    
    

   Just a thought, but why aren't you letting him call your new significant
   other daddy?  I think your son has made it quite clear that he
   wants/needs a daddy and may be ready to accept a daddy that is not his
   biological one.  I'd say that he is definitely missing his daddy and he
   is confused and he'd like to turn to (and trust) someone as his daddy. 
   Maybe what you're "taking away" from him is his way of working all of
   this out for himself.

   It will be confusing for him and you and your boyfriend for a while.  He
   may go back and forth on this.  And should his real father suddenly take
   a new iterest in his son at any time, that will again make things
   confusing.  It's not easy for any one, but it's not unworkable, either.

   Give him time and your support while he finds his way through this.


   							Terza

    This kind of man is one that makes it hard on the rest of us.  Also,
    I think this case demonstrates the point that I've been trying to make
    that visitation is a CHILDREN'S RIGHTS issue.  Children need to
    maintain a relationship with *both* parents.  
    
    I am going to do a lot of rambling here that may or may not apply
    to your situation.  You mentioned that you and your ex are barely
    on speeking terms.  When a man trys to visit his children, and every
    time he walks in the door there is a hasstle ( ie. where's the child
    support?, why don't you... etc) there comes a point when the only
    thing he can do is break something or just walk away from *everything*.
    Men are not supposed to show emotion, but IMHO one of the major reasons
    men do not visit, pay child support or they just disappear is that the
    situation has just gotten too painful to deal with.  The only *out*
    is no more contact. 
    
    One thing that I would advise is to try and separate any *conflict*
    from the visitation.  If you can't deal with him on an amiable basis,
    then try at least a *buisness only* basis.
    
    fred();
    

    I'm going to ask a question - who is doing the bed-time disciplining?
    
    Saying "I want my Daddy" can be a trap that kids your son's age use in
    non-divorced families.  It's a manipulation device that whichever
    parent isn't the current "bad guy" is the one they want - 'cause then
    they would be able to get away with the behavior which is being
    punished.  Where you have the issues of divorce/lack of visitation/new
    adult stirred into the mix, you take on guilt which may not be
    legitimately yours.
    
    If the child is confused as to who "Daddy" is (and it sounds like he
    may be), that adds another level of guilt and manipulation.  Does he
    want the Daddy who isn't around much, or the the new SO who's there and
    may be perceived as an easier "mark"?
    
    Counseling, at least for yourself to find out what the issues and view
    may be like from your son's side is probably a good idea.
    
    Alison

    Sounds like dejavu.  I divorced my daughter's father when she was 3.
    He had 2 children from his first marriage that -- with the exception
    of the child support -- he totally abandoned 6 mos.or so after we
    were married.  With Stacy it has been what I think of as "serial
    abandonment".  She wouldn't hear from him for months at a time.  She'd
    get a brithday card, sometimes even on time.  She'd get something at
    Christmas  and he'd call her when he was feeling sorry for himself. 
    (Usually when he was between wives.)  Stacy has a relationship with her
    grandparents because I took her to see them.
    
    Stacy is now 21 and has a very low opinion of her father.  She went
    through some very painful times dealing with her feelings a few years
    back.  Now she tells me that she wishes him no harm but if he were to
    die she doesn't think she'd care one way or the other.  That's very, very
    sad.
    
    It took me a long time to realize that there was nothing I could do/
    could have done to change the situation.  I can not/could not make up
    for his deficiencies as a human being and parent.  In retrospect, I
    think that it would have been better had I not defended her father
    and/or made excuses for him.  Beyond that, I could only let her know
    that I loved her and give her/get her support when she needed it. 
    
    If you are truly ready to settle down with your new SO, I would
    encourage a close relationship between him and your children and allow
    their "real" father to be the peripheral parent that he seems to choose
    to be.
    
    Fred, I think that there are cases where hassles with the ex make men
    give up on seeing their children.  But, I know many, many cases where
    there was no hassle and the guys just couldn't make the effort.  And
    these guys, whether or not the excuse is the ex gave them a hard time,
    who walk away from their kids do create a bad perception of divorced
    Dads.
    
    Polly

    re Polly
    
    >Fred, I think that there are cases where hassles with the ex make men
    >give up on seeing their children.  But, I know many, many cases where
    >there was no hassle and the guys just couldn't make the effort.  And
    >these guys, whether or not the excuse is the ex gave them a hard time,
    >who walk away from their kids do create a bad perception of divorced
    >Dads.
    
    And then again maybe he *is* just a jerk.  Just trying to cover
    all the bases. 
    fred();
    

    Just a suggestion, but try asking your son at some other point in the
    day (play time or some other 'fun' time) if he has any feelings for
    this daddy.  I agree with some of the respondents that he may be using
    this as a manipulation tool at bedtime.  As adults, we don't want to
    believe that children are as smart as they are (sometimes smarter than
    we) but they instinctively know our vulnerable spots and even though
    you have not spoken out about their dad, they sense some tension and
    this is their way of expressing it.  
    
    My daughter (almost 10) frequently used "I miss my daddy" when she
    didn't get her way and my ex and I have an excellent relationship.  
    
    I would not encourage the use of "daddy" with your SO until you have
    made a true commitment.  I have seen MANY times with some of my friends
    that their children become attached to the new man and circumstances
    are such that this relationship changes and they are left even more
    confused.  My neighbor divorced her husband when her daughter was an
    infant, live with and was engaged to a wonderful guy whom her daughter
    called 'daddy'.  My neighbor had an affair with someone she worked with
    and ended up breaking the engagement but never told her daughter than
    her fiance with not her real daddy and now the daughter thinks her
    daddy deserted her.  It's a mess.  I'm not saying you are at all like
    my neighbor but until their is a definate plan for the future the
    children should be treated very gently.
    
    Good luck
    
    Susan
    

    Thank you all for your responses.  Somehow I knew I would get a lot
    of input.  With all the information I put in the base note, I knew I
    would leave out a few details.  Here goes...  Yes, my SO and I are
    living together and yes, we are planning on getting married.  We are
    waiting for an annulment before we can.  
    
    Re .1  Although the idea of adoption is one that I would like to persue
    simply because he has proven that he doesn't care for the kids, I KNOW
    he would not go along with it (Although, I'm sure his wife would love
    not having to pay the child support).
    
    Re .2  My son is the type of child that Needs a father figure.  He
    Needs someone to look up to, someone to do things with him (mommy just
    doesn't cut it).  He spends alot of time with my SO which is why I
    think he's getting confused.  I feel he KNOWS he has a daddy already,
    but THAT daddy isn't around.  Here's a guy who shows me he loves me and
    I think of him as my daddy, but what about my REAL daddy?  I think
    that's where the confusion comes in.
    
    Re .3  I totally agree.
    
    Re .4  I disagree.  I feel as long as his REAL daddy IS seeing them at
    all, he should call him daddy and ONLY him.  My SO is NOT his daddy, he
    is (or will be) his STEP-daddy.  Look at it from a legal side...  We
    have joint legal custody.  If anything were to happen to me (GOD
    forbid), the children would go to their REAL daddy.  The STEP-daddy has
    no say in it.
    
    Re .5  Fred, you're response was exactly what I was waiting for from
    this notesfile.  At first I was VERY angry, which is why I took the
    time to think about what I was going to say to you.  My ex and I are
    barely on speaking terms because everytime we try to discuss issues
    regarding the kids, I'm ALWAYS WRONG!  I have in the past tried to keep
    him involved in the children's lives and he refused.  Here's an
    example..  My daughter has had several surgeries on her leg.  After one
    of the surgeries (I take her to Boston for it), her leg was infected. 
    Two days in a row I had to rush her back into the hospital in Boston. 
    The first day, I called him and asked if he could go with us.  He said
    he couldn't, he had too much work to do.  When I asked on the second
    day, he had a different response and I quote.. "I'd better not".  WHY?
    The reason is obvious.  His new wife would be upset if he spent time
    with me.  Is she really THAT important?  Is she THAT paranoid?  Put it 
    this way, he NEVER picks up the children without her!  She won't let 
    him out of sight.  Actually now that I think about it, she does have
    reason to paranoid.  He could do the same thing to HER!
    
    Now, I have been VERY reasonable.  I let her have HIM and have been
    trying to keep the peace.  Tell me something...  who's responsibility
    is it to pick up the children, the father or HIS NEW WIFE?!?  The only
    hassles have been when HE starts it.  What am I supposed to do when the
    arrangement was that SHE would pick up the kids and THEY DON'T want to
    go with HER.  I knew this that morning and called him to see if he
    would pick them up instead.  He said ok, but he'd have to check with
    HER.  He called me back and said, NO, SHE was picking them up and that
    was it.  What a hassle ensued THAT night, because they did not want to
    go.  I eventually got them in the car with her and they went.  HE
    called ME after she got home with the kids and HE started harrassing
    ME!  You tell me how this was MY fault? I have NEVER asked him for the
    money that he's SUPPOSED to paying me for the bills, that the COURT
    ORDERED.  I could very well take him back to court and get that money,
    but I've decided it's not worth the hassle.  If you have hassles at the
    door when seeing your children (ie, where's the child support?)  then,
    I would advise you to take a look at yourself!  Where IS the support, 
    anyway?  
    
    No Fred, if he is not seeing the children because it's "too painful",
    that is his own doing!  We already have a "business only" relationship. 
    That is what I meant by saying that we are barely on speaking terms.
    I truly believe that he not seeing the children because he didn't give
    a damn about them to begin with!  His OWN mother even said that he
    would see less of the children when his NEW baby came.  And that's
    exactly what's happened!
    
    Re .7  Thank you Polly.  
    
    I do somewhat agree that my son is being manipulative.  Take last night
    versus the night before.  He wanted my SO and didn't mention a word
    about his daddy.  Last night was very family-oriented.  We watched a
    movie together, etc.  He treated both me and my SO as if we were both
    his bio parents.  "I'll sit with mommy for a while, then I'll sit with
    him".  I think he only wants daddy when he's being disciplined. 
    Something else I'd like to add is that when the children come home from
    a visit with him, they are little hellions!  He must be letting them
    get away with murder at his house!  
    
    The only question I have left is what to do about either getting him to
    see them more or getting him out of their lives!
    
    Thank you ALL for your valued responses and it's nice to know that I'm
    not the ONLY one in the world with these problems and there are friends
    out there.  Thank you again.

I don't know if this could be at all relevant but....

A very close friend is married to a woman who has a daughter from a previous
marriage.  When they first divorced, the father and mother stole the girl back
and forth, etc... - very nasty divorce.  The father has since abandoned the
girl and never has attempted to make contact.  My friend has adopted this girl,
and she considers him - and calls him - daddy.  (In fact, she refers to the
wedding as when "we all got married!").

About two years ago the girl - probably gifted in school - began behaving
strangely at home and at school.  She was getting bad grades, rebelling, just
acting strange.  Her parents could not figure out what was wrong.  Finally her
teacher suggested that the problem MIGHT be her bio. father, she had mentioned
him several times at school (though NEVER at home).  My friend and his wife sat
down with her and asked her if there was anything she wanted to know about him.
They had told her things about him before, but she had forgotten.  She was
curious about him again, and wanted to know some things.  They answered all of
her questions and overnight she was "back to normal."

Could your son perhaps have some unanswered questions about his father?  But be
too afraid to ask you or your SO?  Maybe if he could fit all the pieces together
- good or bad - he could find peace within himself and sort out his feelings.

As far as your son calling this man daddy..... I don't think that should be
stifled, he may NEED someone to be "daddy" right now.  But explain to him that
your SO is NOT daddy, but loves him like a daddy would, and if he wants to call
him daddy that's okay.  I think that your parents are the ones who love you, not
necessarily the ones who provide the sperm and egg.  Your SO and your son can
work out between themselves how they want to call eachother, and likely have a
stronger relationship.

You bring up a good point about if something happens to you.  At one point I
really wanted to get very close to my husband's boys.  But I knew how their
mother felt about me (I also came into the picture while they were still married)
and that if anything ever happened to him - or US for that matter - I had not
rights and would never see them again.  This insecurity kept me at a distance
when I really wanted to grow closer.  Now that I have my own children, the
desire to be closer to his has diminished considerably.

Being in the position of your husband's new wife, I will offer some unsolicited
advice.  You probably well know that it is in the best interest of the children
to have a healthy relationship with their father, and to feel as comfortable as
possible going with him, etc...  Even if you don't SAY anything about this woman
your children know you very well and can sense your feelings towards her.  I
think you will need to make a conscious effort in your home to encourage them to
like her (yes, even if you can't stand her!), and to say positive things about
her so that they will feel more comfortable going with her.  They may feel like
they are betraying you by going with her - and you can have significan influence
in that area.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
Kristen

            I think you have several situations going on at the same
       time, and that may be a problem for everyone in the household. 

            First, kids get feedback from other kids as well as adults
       and I agree with you, your son knows the difference between his
       biological dad and your SO.  The emphasis here is that this man
       in "your" SO, not your son's.  Most children don't think they
       should be disciplined to begin with, that means (IMO) that your
       son may have strong objections to being disciplined by his
       mother's boyfriend!  Think about it from the child's point of
       view.  Mom does it.  Dad does it, even though if may not look
       like it when he comes home.  And now even the SO does it! 

            Second, I would not let them call your SO daddy until you
       were absolutely sure you were getting married.  I agree with 88.9
       If anything changes, you'll make a difficult situation worse.  I
       married my ex when her daughter was 3 years old (she is 20 now).
       She calls me "Dad" and her biological father "Dad" and has no
       problems figuring out, who is who (Her biological father saw her
       once a month without fail).  Wait until you are married and let
       them (your son and your SO) work it out.

             Third, IMO the tension between you, your ex AND his new
       wife is a factor in 1) how consistently he sees the children and
       2) whether or not your son will tell you how he feels about his
       father.  My ex and I can't have a civil conversation for more
       than 5 minutes, but I see my son every day.  I can do it because
       my son is 14, and I live less than 2 miles away.  He comes over
       on his bicycle, the school bus, and I pick him up after football
       practice (read I don't have to see or talk to her).  I am not
       implying, in anyway, that you are the cause of the tension, I'm
       just saying that tension is a problem.  Divorced couples seldom
       get along! 

             Is there anyway for you and your ex to arrange some sort of
       "neutral - no hassle" transfer?

             Is there anyone other than you or your ex that your son can
       talk to about the divorce and how he feels?


       Richard

    re .10 fuller
    
    We probably have more in common than you realize.  In July I was given
    custody of my children and "changed sides" as it were.   Since then,
    the children have received no support, one letter, and two phone calls.
    They don't speak about their mother.
    
    It's a complex world.  There are many reasons why things happen. It's
    difficult to judge from this distance.  Asking for support in this
    notes file is like asking for support for cats in a dog-pound.  Be
    prepared (and I think you probably are, thanks for taking time to 
    consider your reply before flamming all over me) to hear "the rest 
    of the story".  What I have said and what I am about to say I do
    no know if it fits or not.  I present it as "information" for your
    processing.  I take the trouble to do this because I consider myself
    a "children's rights" advocate as much as a "fathers/ncp rights
    advocate".  I hate divorce.  I hate what it's done to children.
    I hate what it's done to *my* children.  I hate what it's done to
    me.
    
    There isn't much I can do to affect your ex.  One way or the other.
    (God grant me the serenity to accepth the things I cannot change).
    You ask what *you* *can* do to help improve the situation. (Grant
    them the courage to change the things I can).
    
    I have known many men who have abandoned their children.  Some are
    just plain jerks,  some just plain don't care, some are under a lot
    of pressure from ex wives, some have job and career requirements
    that take them away, some think that "it's best for the children if
    there is no more hastles".  Some have not voluntarily abandoned their
    childre, but have had their children taken away to other states and
    other countries and have a difficult time keeping in touch.
    
    I DO NOT AGREE WITH *ANY* OF THESE EXCUSES.  That is why I encourage
    NCP's in other notes and reiterather here that the children have a
    right to maintain a relationship with *both* parents.  They have a
    right to not be dragged physically and emotionally into their parents
    hasstles.  
    
    There is "nothing" more threatening to an current wife than an
    ex wife.  Especially on that also has children to keep him tied
    emotionally to her and the "family".  There is nothing more hated
    by an ex wife than a current wife.  Especially one that "broke up
    the family".  Maybe justified, maybe not.  By this time, if you
    really *are* concerned about the kids, I don't think it matters.  
    Being "right" in this situation may do more harm than good.  The 
    children, although very young are not stupid. They can sense your 
    feelings. It affects them. They know how to use it to manipulate you.
    
    fred();

    
    
    Re: .10
    
    Your reply to Fred's .5 may have a lot to do with what is going on.
    
    Try going back and reading your reply as if it were from someone else.
    To me, at least, your anger, resentment, and frustration with your ex
    are loud and clear.  This might be contributing in an indirect way
    to your son's problem.  Understand that I am not questioning or
    criticizing you, but just noticing what I think may be a factor.  You
    have reason to have these feelings, but your son has his own and
    perceiving yours may be contributing to his confusion.
    
    So what is my point?  You have a right to these feelings and will move
    beyond them only with time.  As part of all this, it may help if you can
    work at letting go of this stuff.  You'll feel better and so will your
    loved ones who are affected by it.  You can't do anything about your
    ex; he is his own problem whether he knows it or not and letting go of
    your anger, etc. doesn't let him off the hook.  It lets off YOU and
    those you love who are affected by it so you can move on and leave the
    ex to himself and the new wife.  It sounds like they deserve each
    other.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    
    

   Re: 88.10 by FRDON::FULLER

   Hi,

   I heard a lot of anger, hurt, and frustration in your note.  It's tough,
   really tough, to deal with a partner who isn't really a partner.  There
   are so many things I could write about my ex, my kids, and our
   relationships that are very similar.  I have many, many times wished he
   would just get out of my life and my kids' lives.  I have also admitted
   that they need access to their father and they need access to me.  They
   have the right to know him for themselves, not just as I know him.

   I have learned the hard way, not to expect consideration from my ex,
   ever.  It just isn't going to happen.  I *have* to be strongly assertive,
   and sometimes rude, just to get him to recognize my part in this
   relationship.  And it is a relationship, however much I don't want it. 
   We have this relationship forever, because we created two children
   together.  We have just a "business" relationship that I have worked very
   hard to attain.  It has finally been made easier by the fact that he has
   remarried.  He has someone else to focus his attentions on, thank
   goodness!  Even so, I resent having to work so hard to get any kind of
   equal consideration!  There have been enough times that I have thrown up
   my hands and just wished he would take the kids or give me kids and leave
   me alone!  I don't need the hassle!

   Still, I've never done that.  I've never given up.  I deserve my place in
   the lives of my children, and they need me.  He is also part of their
   lives.  So sometimes I've swallowed hard, and stepped back.  What is the
   best thing for my kids?  In spite of everything, it's still best for me
   to try and remain as involved as I can.  I have to make some sacrifices. 
   Some people around me also have to make some sacrifices.  Sometimes I
   mess things up trying to make it all work.  Sometimes things turn out
   right.

   The point of all this is that maybe your ex will never have a strong
   interest in your kids, or ever develop a close relationship with them. 
   Probably, he will never bring your kids to visit his parents.  That will
   probably be something only you will do as long as it's something you
   really care about.  He may always be "ruled" by his new wife, who will
   probably always feel threatened by you and your kids.  But don't make
   this an all-or-nothing deal, even if that is what seems the easiest.  For
   now, the little relationship your children do have with him is better
   than nothing, assuming it is not abusive.  And if, at the same time, your
   children can get the love they need from you and your SO, then by all
   means, they should have it!  But don't give up what little your ex has. 
   When the kids are older, they may decide they want nothing to do with
   him.  But let them make that decision, don't make it for them.


   							Terza

    I think that you made a strong point insofar as all relationships goes.
    And that is when a PARTNER becomes a NONPARTNER in responsiblity. There
    seems to exist two types of animals here the responsible and the later.
    Funny how one picks on that issue and no one seems to understand it. I
    guess its like anything else in life. 

    Be warned that this may sound a little blunt.
    
    It is a requirement (look it up in the manual if you don't believe me)
    that all children with divorced parents go through periods of
    confusion, particularly when adult relationships change.  Entry .0
    demonstrates that this requirement is being met.  Trying to deprive
    your son of this confusion would be both futile and wrong.
    
    It is also a requirement that each divorced parent perceive that the
    other is an irresponsible jerk, and behave in such a way that the other
    parent can have a comparable perception.  It is generally also required
    that this be applied with at least equal vigor to any new spouces
    acquired by the other parent.  Entry .10 demonstrates that you are meeting
    this requirement.
    
    I don't think readers here know much more than that these requirements
    are met, and that the kids don't see much of their dad.  I hope you
    take that into account in weighing much of the advice.  I also hope the
    file has helped you blow off some steam in a satisfying way, as this
    can be one of its valuable functions.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    p.s.  It is interesting, but probably not surprising, to note that the
    replies here are generally more vituperative than those in PARENTING.

    To all:
    
    I think I need to clear up some things.  First of all, there is NO
    tension or conflicts at the time of transfer.  Although I do still
    have ALOT of anger and hatred for my EX and HIS wife.  I DO NOT show
    this to the children in ANY way.  NO discussions of what's going on
    is EVER in front of the children.  When he picks up or drops off the
    kids, there are barely any words spoken between any of us.  What I was
    trying to point out in .10 is simply that *I* HAVE been trying to
    keep the peace.
    
    Fred,  my ONLY concern is for my children.  I want them to be happy
    and I want to give them as much of a normal life as I can.  How can I
    do this when HE is playing mind games?  What do I say when they come 
    home and tell me that 'her-name' HATES me?!?  What do I say?  I
    certainly don't say that I HATE her also...  That would only make
    matters worse!  and back to my original question...  what do I say when
    they say they miss daddy?  There's nothing I CAN say!  Daddy will see
    you when HE wants to?  That's not right!  What do I say?  I REFUSE to
    say anything bad about him or his wife, even when they bad-mouth me to
    the kids.
    
    When my EX and I split up, I told him that all I want is for HIM to be
    happy and if SHE was what he wanted, then I wish them all the luck in
    the world.  It's what HE wanted, so I let him go.  What I've been
    trying to figure out is why they're angry with me, when I haven't done
    anything!  So, Steve, Yes, I have moved on and left them to each other,
    but that does not excuse him from his responsibility to his children
    and trying to place the blame on me is totally off the wall!  
    
    Here's another example:  One weekend he wanted our son, not our
    daughter.  I thought he had something special planned, so I agreed to
    this.  During that weekend, I took my daughter to the park.  Who was
    there?  My Ex, his girlfriend (at the time), my son and two of their
    friends showed up AFTER I was there.  My son didn't see me and my daughter 
    didn't see them.  *I* had no idea they were going to the park as he does 
    not tell me ANYTHING he is doing with the kids.  When he dropped my son 
    off on Sunday night, HE YELLED AT ME for being at the park!  Please tell 
    me how this was MY fault?  I also did not leave the park, because *I* had 
    just as much right to be there as HE did!  I had my son in my arms as he 
    was sleeping.  My EX put his fist up to me as if he was going to hit
    me.  Again, please tell me how this was MY fault?  My son also said
    after that weekend that daddy said he's only MY daddy and not
    Susan's...  WHAT do I say to that!?  
    
    Just another example to show WHO is causing the trouble here.  Like I 
    said my ONLY concern is my children.  I want to know HOW I answer my
    son's questions of WHY daddy doesn't see them.  I KNOW there is nothing
    I can do as far as my ex is concerned, but his actions or lack of, for
    that matter, ARE affecting my children.
    
    

    Sometimes, when folks do nasty things to others, like your ex running
    off with some other woman, they have to justify their actions. Like she
    did this and that and I responded like so. Anyhow your ex maybe
    supressing his emotions for his act of walking out on you and the kids.
    And to justify his actions he has to be hostil, secretive, and just a
    pain in the ass. How do you deal with this? Gee, I guess there is
    nothing execpt keep on keeping on. If your the good guy, maybe the kids
    will see through it someday.. The obvious hate is that you are keeping
    him poor with child suport, and that if he could get the kids,
    bla-bla-bla. Or justifing the excuse that he has or has not done what
    he is to do. I have heard this rot from my future ex's brother and he
    crapped about what a rotten ex he had. But the bonehead never visited,
    or wrote, or did anything of value that would enhance the delema that
    he had put himself into. He was an acholic, and a violent one at that.
    I only wished the fool would have taken a swing at me. 

    Re .19 Fuller.
    
    First of all I do believe that you do care.  I believe this becaues
    you are in here at all and really are seeking some answers.  What 
    I am about to tell you will probably p!!s you off.  Just like they
    did me when someone else told them to me, but experience has taught
    me that they were probably right.
    
    >How can I
    >do this when HE is playing mind games?  
    
    The mind games are most likely being played mostly by yourself. (How
    can I *fix* this)?  You are driving yourself nuts trying to figure this
    out. (I can say this becsuse I've been there).  The answer is--
    YOU CAN'T!!   
    
    >What do I say when they come 
    >home and tell me that 'her-name' HATES me?!?  What do I say?  
    
    Tell them that because you're Daddy's ex wife that she probably
    feels very threatened by you.  It's normal to hate something you
    feel threatened by.  (When thay take that one back to her it will
    blow her mind ;^) ).
    
    >and back to my original question...  what do I say when
    >they say they miss daddy?  There's nothing I CAN say!  Daddy will see
    >you when HE wants to?  That's not right!  What do I say?  
    
    Tell him daddy will see him when he can.  That daddy probably misses
    him too.  That nobody can have everything they want when they want it.
    Tell your child that *you* love him and that your glad that *you* can
    be with him right now.
    
    >I think I need to clear up some things.  First of all, there is NO
    >tension or conflicts at the time of transfer.  Although I do still
    >have ALOT of anger and hatred for my EX and HIS wife.  I DO NOT show
    >this to the children in ANY way.  NO discussions of what's going on
    >is EVER in front of the children.  When he picks up or drops off the
    >kids, there are barely any words spoken between any of us.
    but then:
    >When he dropped my son 
    >off on Sunday night, HE YELLED AT ME for being at the park! 
    >My EX put his fist up to me as if he was going to hit
    >me. 
    
    However, the park incident was probably a coincidence.  I'm not
    trying to back him up or excuse his actions, but he is  probably
    very emotionally confused about a lot of things right now.  A lot
    of it you can BLOW OFF as not being really personal. 
    
    >When my EX and I split up, I told him that all I want is for HIM to be
    >happy and if SHE was what he wanted, then I wish them all the luck in
    >the world.  It's what HE wanted, so I let him go.  What I've been
    >trying to figure out is why they're angry with me, when I haven't done
    >anything!  So, Steve, Yes, I have moved on and left them to each other,
    
    >Please tell me how this was MY fault?  
    
    It makes you a good martyr, but isn't going to change the current
    reality much and isn't going to change history at all.
    *YOU* are the one who is accepting *his* statements and accusations 
    as correct and *YOU* are the only one who can really decide whether 
    or not they really are.  You're comming to us for judgement and 
    approval.  I can't give that.  I can give you some of the hard earned
    things that I have learned to help you chang *you*, but I can't do
    one d&^N thing about *him*.
    
    >after that weekend that daddy said he's only MY daddy and not
    >Susan's...  WHAT do I say to that!?  
    
    May be more fanticy on your son's part than anything else.  This is
    a comom fantacy among many children.
    
    fred();

    This one might tick you off also, but I think it might be useful
    to you:
    
    >I think I need to clear up some things.  First of all, there is NO
    >tension or conflicts at the time of transfer.  Although I do still
    >have ALOT of anger and hatred for my EX and HIS wife.  I DO NOT show
    >this to the children in ANY way.  NO discussions of what's going on
    >is EVER in front of the children.  When he picks up or drops off the
    >kids, there are barely any words spoken between any of us.  What I was
    >trying to point out in .10 is simply that *I* HAVE been trying to
    >keep the peace.
    
    Do you really believe this?  How are children supposed to believe there
    is no tension or conflict when you barely speak.  Tension is as much
    evident in the tense, unspoken silences as it is in harsh, nasty words.
    Just look at what you wrote and read it as if it were someone else
    writing it.  Would you believe it?
    
    You said further on that you have moved on.  It sure doesn't look that
    way to me.  When you've really moved on, you won't be so angry as you
    are now.  Understand none of what I am saying here is to excuse your
    ex.  He seems to be a class-A jerk, but THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO
    ABOUT THAT.  Listen to these words:  You are powerless over your ex,
    what he does, what he says, and how he lives.  When your kids
    come home saying that hateful things are being said about you try to be
    noncommital.  If they want to know why these things are being said
    suggest that they ask the source.
    
    Give yourself a break.  You don't deserve to let yourself be tormented
    forever by this.  He can make you miserable only if you let him, and
    right now you are cooperating.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    Re .21 Haddock.
    
    Can you please explain to me how *I* am playing mind games?  My EX
    is the one that is not seeing his children.  Like I stated previously,
    which you obviously did not *read* is that *I* have not caused ANY
    problems.  I haven't asked (or argued) about the money he is not paying
    me for the bills, I haven't mentioned ANYTHING about why he doesn't see
    the kids, I haven't mentioned a thing!  I could very well take him to
    court, right now as he is in contempt of court.  He has violated the
    divorce agreement on numorous occations.  
    
    Put it this way, Fred, he wanted the children at special times, like a
    Wednesday night, returned Thursday, picked up Friday and returned
    Saturday AFTER his wedding!  I did not even give it a second thought. 
    I could have refused because it's not in the agreement.  But did I?
    NO, because I've been trying to keep things peaceful!  
    
    So as far as ME playing mind games, that is TOTALLY NOT TRUE!  If
    someone told you that and you realized they were right, then you
    obviously were!  Just because that's what you were doing, does not mean
    that's what I was doing and I do not appreciate the incinuation!  
    
    Re: the park incident...  Yes it was coincidence, but how was it MY
    fault?  If HE is emotionally confused that is HIS problem not mine! 
    He's the one that caused all this.  I did everything in my power to
    save my marriage.  I even offered him an open marriage!  He didn't want
    it.  He wanted to be with her, so I let him go.  He didn't see his
    daughter learn how to walk.  Do you know why?  I wish I knew.  He only
    saw the children once every three months and at least now takes them
    once a month, probably because it's his "duty".  Sometimes he takes them 
    every other weekend, but most of the time, there is NO correspondence for 
    four weeks.  In fact that's where we are now!  He hasn't seen the children 
    since the weekend of Sept. 14th, no phone calls, no requests to see them.  
    When MY children are affected by his actions, I CAN NOT "BLOW OFF"!
    Please tell me how a man who sees his children once every three months,
    then once a month, once in while every other weekend, feels he can get
    custody?  He tried this and it failed!  He made all kinds of
    accusations that just weren't true AND were proven otherwise.  He did
    not like the babysitter I had at the time as one example.  I moved to
    another town in August.  Has he tried to find out who is babysitting
    the children now?  Has he asked about school?  No!  So, how did he
    figure he could get custody?  As I said before, HIS lawyer told him to
    drop it.  I truly believe that his wife put him up to it, because SHE
    didn't want to go back to work.  If they had custody, then they
    wouldn't have to pay child support, thus making up for her paycheck. 
    They even went as far as telling the children that they were going to
    be living with them soon!  As far as I'm concerned, HE NO LONGER HAS
    ANY RIGHTS after telling them something like that!  That only confused
    them and had we gone to court, he would have lost ALL visitation.  *I*
    did  not want that to happen.  He was just reprimanded by his lawyer
    and *I* dropped it from there.  Can't you see now that *I* have been
    trying to cooperate?
    
    I also think you should know that this is NOT a recent divorce.  He
    left over three years ago, when his daughter was only 10 months old!  I
    am NOT asking for judgement and approval.  It took me a long time to
    realize that there is nothing wrong with me, HE has the problems and NO
    ONE (not even you Fred) can try to convince me otherwise.  *I* know the
    truth.  There is nothing wrong with me!  *I* do not need to "change"
    for anyone!  I wasn't asking what to do about him as I know there's
    nothing I can do with the exception of taking him to court, which I
    will not do.  
    
    I'm sorry, Fred, but I think you should take a look at yourself.  You
    are too judgemental of ALL Custodial mothers, based on ONLY your case. 
    Back off a little and try to see the other side of the fence.
    
    Re .22 MACDONALD
    
    Steve,  I didn't mean that we don't say ANYTHING to each other.  I just
    meant there isn't much said.  I even walked over to the car to peak at
    the baby.  I spoke a few words to his wife to see how she is at night,
    etc.  I just meant that we don't have any real conversations.
    
    Also I have just been venting some anger, but that doesn't mean that I
    live by it.  I KNOW there is nothing I can do about him and I go on with
    my life.  

    re .23
    
    >Can you please explain to me how *I* am playing mind games?  My EX
      With yourself.  
    
    >I even offered him an open marriage!  He didn't want
    >it.  He wanted to be with her, so I let him go. 
      I don't think you have.  Your're *still* trying to control him and
      madder'n a wet hen cause you can't.  LET HIM GO.
    
    >When MY children are affected by his actions, I CAN NOT "BLOW OFF"!
      If you can't then the children will be the ones to suffer most.
    
    >Can't you see now that *I* have been
    >trying to cooperate?
       It appears more that your're trying to *control* and *manipulate*.
    
    >*I'm sorry, Fred,(FULLER) but I think you should take a look at yourself.
    >*You are too judgemental of ALL Custodial mothers, (NON CUSTODIAL
    >*FATHERS) based on ONLY your case. Back off a little and try to see 
    >*the other side of the fence.
    
    freed();

    re .24
    
      >He wanted to be with her, so I let him go. 
      >I don't think you have.  Your're *still* trying to control him and
      >madder'n a wet hen cause you can't.  LET HIM GO.

      I don't think you fully understand what I have been trying to say.
      Yes, I have let him go.  Now why won't he let me go?  I was just
      trying to give some history on my EX and what I have NOT done, but
      could have.  I was simply trying to explain what has happened so 
      far.  Fred, I do not get involved in his life at all.  I don't
      ask any questions, I don't pry.  To be honest, I could really care
      less.  All I want is for him to spend time with his children and
      to be a responsible father.  In telling you what's happened, that
      does NOT mean that I take action on my feelings!
    
      >If you can't then the children will be the ones to suffer most.

      No, Fred...  The children are OBVIOUSLY suffering now by his actions
      or lack of.
    
      >It appears more that your're trying to *control* and *manipulate*.

      Gee, how can you say that when I'm not involved in his life at all?
      Like I said, I could care less what he does with his life.  I have
      NO control over him and how can I "manipulate" when we don't even
      talk to each other.  EVERYTIME he wants them, he gets them!  Please
      tell me how *I* am manipulating?
    
    >*You are too judgemental of ALL Custodial mothers, (NON CUSTODIAL
    >*FATHERS) based on ONLY your case. Back off a little and try to see 
    >*the other side of the fence.
    
    Geez, this tells me that you CAUSE problems with your EX.  Stop
    trying to place BLAME on anyone and just let things go!  There is NO
    WAY that you are going to make me feel guilty for anything because
    *I* haven't done a thing to interfere in his life.

    Now I know why YOU are in the situation you're in and you're totally
    ONE-SIDED.  You refuse to look at the other side.  

    What I am trying to say, is that it's not ALWAYS the mother.  MOST
    of the time, it's the fathers that walk out without a word!
    

    OH, folks... lets watch the acusations shall we??? This is an emotional
    issue for many here, and slinging acustations without actually being
    part of the stiuation is not right..... lets be mellow shall we??
    
    AL
    Co-Mod

    Sometimes the *WORST* thing you can do to someone is nothing.
    fred();

    I know it is late, but...
    
    My advice is that you cannot make anybody do anything.  He either will
    or will not establish a relationship with his children.  It is really
    hard when you see your children suffering due to the uncaring inaction
    of the other parent.  Be supportive of your children, love them and
    care for them, over time they will come to know the truth (but it's
    gonna hurt).  Do not either push their father to have a relationship or
    to stay away, let him do as he wills (he's will anyway and this way you
    are not responsible).  As long (and this is the real bottom line) as he
    and his wife do NOT abuse the children, try to ignore what the do or
    say (the childrens mother was very vituperative, now that my children are 
    teenagers I have heard that they knew what was going on then and the 
    respect me more because I never participated in the verbal venom wars).  
    Try to disassociate yourself from this person (one of the things I try
    to do is NEVER refer to her as "my" anything, she is the childrens
    mother (note the third person voice here)) it helps in the process of
    letting go.  DO NOT APPEASE!  If you allow violations of the agreement
    to occur, they will almost certainly increase.  It is human nature, and
    many of us are only human, to get away with whatever we can.  Document
    violations and when you have something solid, take him to court and let
    him know that he cannot do it.  If it is not in the agreement or court
    orders, forget about it (though I personally believe in the DEATH
    PENALTY 8-0 for rudeness and bad manners).
    
    Duh, I think I have rambled enough.  I sympathize with you, though I am
    on the other side and it has been a long battle to maintain ANY
    relationship with my children.  
    
    Take care
    jimc

    My situation doesn't seem as severe as .0's but I have some of the
    issues mentioned and could use some feedback.  okay, here's the
    history--we have a son (26 months) and last week my husband informed
    me that he no longer wanted the responsibities of a family and wanted
    his freedom.  This probably has been a long time coming and we
    definitely have had our share of porblems.  We filed last Friday
    and the divorce is to be final in 30 days (luckily, we have been
    able to talk and settle civilly).  Now, a couple of issues--1. 
    On his first weekend to have Joshua he had him overnight then called
    his parents to keep him on Saturday and Sunday.  Legally, can he
    do that?  Is it really none of my business, as he says?  2.  in
    our agreement it says that he will have Joshua on Wednesday nights
    from 6:00 pm until the following morning, at which time he will
    deliver Josh to daycare.  Every other weekend he is supposed to
    have Josh from 6:00 Friday until 6:00 Sunday.  However in the paperwork
    it also states that he can see Josh with reasonable notice--does
    this mean he has to call me on the weekends he is supposed to have
    Josh any way?  Or does this mean if he calls I have to let him take
    Josh?
    
    Everything is real confusing and hurts alot right now and sometimes
    it seems I just can't follow all this "legalise".  I want Josh to
    have his dad in his life and we try to be friends but I need my
    own answers.
    
    Pam 
    

    re.29
    
    When you have your son, don't you think it's alright to have your
    parents babysit?
    
    What kind of responsibilities is he trying to get out of.  Seems
    like they'll continue to me.  Or is he only responsible every other
    week-end; I doubt that.  Unless you prefer it that way.
    
    One of the things I found most difficult during my divorce, was
    to let go.  I mean letting go of worrying how the kids' father was
    taking care of them.  During those week-ends, I was always worried
    about them.  I enjoyed my freedom those week-ends but at the same
    time, didn't.  I think in many divorces, the couple probably aren't
    amicible and are suppose to be able to let Dad be Dad at his own
    home and vice versa.  The kids have 2 completely separate homes
    with 2 different sets of rules and so on.  I don't believe there's
    much that can be done about that short of murder.  Unless, there's
    abuse and such going on and can be proven in Court.
    
    Divorce for me was "no matter which way" you're screwed.  At the
    present time, I'm just very thankful and happy that my ex and I
    are able to see this!

                                               <<< Note 88.29 by ELMAGO::PHUNTLEY >>>
                                                           -< questions >-
> some deleted ....

>    able to talk and settle civilly).  Now, a couple of issues--1. 
>    On his first weekend to have Joshua he had him overnight then called
>    his parents to keep him on Saturday and Sunday.  Legally, can he
>    do that?  Is it really none of my business, as he says?

I would not see this as a problem unless this happens every weekend he has him.
It's one thing to spend some time with Grandma & Grandpa every so often, but
another if your ex only just picks up and drops him off every weekend without
spending time with him. I would certainly be curious as to his motives. I guess
the bottom line is if your son has no problems with this, then I wouldn't worry
about it. This follows what 88.30 more or less says.


>                                                                2.  in
>    our agreement it says that he will have Joshua on Wednesday nights
>    from 6:00 pm until the following morning, at which time he will
>    deliver Josh to daycare.  Every other weekend he is supposed to
>    have Josh from 6:00 Friday until 6:00 Sunday.  However in the paperwork
>    it also states that he can see Josh with reasonable notice--does
>    this mean he has to call me on the weekends he is supposed to have
>    Josh any way?  Or does this mean if he calls I have to let him take
>    Josh?
    
Reasonable notice usually refers to other instances other than what is defined
in your agreement. My ex and I have a current understanding, for the defined
access windows, unless there is a problem, we make no contact what so ever. I
just show up as per our current agreement (a more formal version of our access
arrangements has yet to be signed). All other undefined access arrangements are
done by written or oral notice. I prefer written because it does provide an
audit trail so to speak if my ex decides to be unreasonable.

It seems somewhat funny, in our current arrangement the language is very vague
as to access. It just says generous access with reasonable notice and does not
specify when and where. In the new language, it clearly specifies the standard
access periods, where he will be picked up and dropped off, birthdays access and
other holiday access rights. So far my ex has refused to agree with the terms,
yet does follow what has been offered by my lawyer and I. It also includes other
access can be arranged by written notice. I still have problems with my ex and
access at times but, I think her lawyer has told her she does not have much
choice but to agree.

John

    re .29
    
   > Now, a couple of issues--1. 
   > On his first weekend to have Joshua he had him overnight then called
   > his parents to keep him on Saturday and Sunday.  Legally, can he
   > do that?  Is it really none of my business, as he says?
    
    	Legally he can probably do that.  The Grandparents may just have
        wanted to see the kid also and perhaps other reasons.  If he is
        like most fathers, he is probably having a hard time dealing with
        all the b.s. going on  *and* trying to learn to deal with a 
        26-month old.  It may take some time for him to adjust.
    
   > 2.  in
   > our agreement it says that he will have Joshua on Wednesday nights
   > from 6:00 pm until the following morning, at which time he will
   > deliver Josh to daycare.  Every other weekend he is supposed to
   > have Josh from 6:00 Friday until 6:00 Sunday.  However in the paperwork
   > it also states that he can see Josh with reasonable notice--does
   > this mean he has to call me on the weekends he is supposed to have
   > Josh any way?  Or does this mean if he calls I have to let him take
   > Josh?
    
       He probably doesn't *have* to give you notification for the scheduled
       visitation. Nor to you *have* to allow him to take Josh *every* time
       he calls.  "Reasonable notice" visits are *in addition to* the
       scheduled visitation.  ****BUT******A little reasonableness and 
       consideration on *both* your parts can go a *long* way here.
        
    fred();