Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Tony,
    
    In my opinion, and mine only, I think that Kami is hurting alot.
    she is probably being honest in stating her "needs", but as you well
    know, a childs concept of "needs" and a parents concept are two very
    different animals.
    
    Another point i'd like to make is that maybe she has other problems,
    and is merely using you as an anger point.... maybe she is angry about
    alot of things but has found that you are an easy target?  I know that
    this may sound cruel but it could very well be.
    
    one last point, that I am making last, is that her mother could be
    instilling a few ideas into her head.  this might not be true, and it
    might be very true.
    
    my opinions only Tony.
    
    As for what you should do?  I think that you should sit down and try to
    answer each and every question [and statement] that was made in her
    letter.  You know that she will read it, its the nature of children, to
    get mail and feel important somehow.  try to calmly explain to her,
    without inadvertantly throwing accusations or words that might be
    misconstrued as negative towards her mom, what, why and the how comes
    of it all.  If anything, it will make you feel batter.
    
    Al

    Tony, it's quite understandable that you're upset by Kami's letter. 
    Any parent would be, and that's my point.  Your divorce probably has
    very little to do with Kami's current outburst.  If you were living in
    the same household with her, you'd be hearing these same hate-filled
    messages over the breakfast table.  It's the nature of teenage children
    to demand and extort.  It's the responsibility of parents to try to
    calmly, yet firmly, instill the values and priorities that every adult
    has to live with if they're to live within their means.
    
    I'm not saying Kami isn't hurt by the divorce, only that her hurt over
    the divorce is a separate issue from trying to extort more money out of
    you.  That hurt probably deserves some attention and perhaps counseling
    in and of itself.
    
    I agree with Al.  Send Kami a calm, reasoned letter answering her
    concerns point by point.  If you feel it's appropriate (I don't have
    enough information to judge whether the things she lists as needs are,
    in fact, necessary), you might want to try reasoning with her over
    needs versus wants and how sometimes it's necessary to prioritize even 
    needs when money is short.
    
    If you give in to her demands now, you can expect a lifetime of similar
    blackmail (and don't anyone kid yourselves; kids are expert
    blackmailers).  If you were dealing with her on a daily, face-to-face
    basis, you'd still have to fight this battle.  Don't let the distance
    and any lurking guilt force you into giving in to actions that will
    retard Kami's growth and still not strengthen your healthy relationship
    with her.
    
    On another front, you may want to call Kami's mother and discuss
    whether Kami really needs clothes and glasses.  These sound like they
    _could_ be real needs (though a teenage girl often "needs" style rather
    than function, and that could well be the crux of the matter).  As long
    as you're paying what the court has ordered and then some, I'd think
    your ex has a responsibility to make sure that money buys the
    necessities your children need.  Then, if there's anything left over,
    they can consider summer camps and luxury vehicles.
    
    Good luck.
    Karen
    

    
    
    Tony,
    
    I know it's tough to do, but I wouldn't buy into the crap she is
    dishing out in the letter.  She is clearly angry and has a right
    to be, but to dish it out in a letter like that and then end it
    with "don't respond unless you just have to" is clear evidence 
    that she knows there is another side to the story and doesn't want
    to hear it.  She "wants" to be mad at you, because you are a couple
    of thousand miles away so it is safe.  If her mother has a new
    Chevy Suburban (which is no cheap vehicle) and then cries poor
    mouth to Kami blaming it on you, then you can bet that Kami isn't
    stupid.  She knows the score, but she has to live with her mother.
    It's easier and safer to unload on you.
    
    I'd send a very simple, concise note to Kami offering to discuss it
    with her.  If she really wants to hear your side, she'll respond.
    If not, you won't hear a word and I'd leave it at that.  She may
    be just a kid, but she has learn responsibility for her feelings
    and actions.  She won't learn it, if you play her game.
    
    Steve
     

    ditto 1., .2, and .3
    fred();

    
    And Ditto again!
    
    My daughter pulled the same thing when she was around your daughters
    age.  
    
    Now my ex wife is very materialistic and the world revolves around
    money, but to hear her talk she was on death row.  She was making
    more than me, driving a new Caddy, living in a 500k house and
    collecting Welfare?
    
    She would tell the kids, no christmas, now money for school lunches
    and so on, because your father left us with nothing..  WRONG.
    
    Your daughter in addition to going through a stage, is probably
    mirrowing the words your ex is spouting.
    
    Relax and be supportive, a father and let them know if they need
    you, you, than ask..
    
    Time needed here.
    
    Cal.
    

            I have the same situation, but not such a drastic result.
       My ex claims to be broke, but she is driving a new van and just
       bought a used motorcycle.  My son (age 14) tore a contact lens
       and had to go back to eye glasses because "your father won't give
       me any more money".  He also missed basketball camp this summer
       for the same reason. 

            I think, the only difference for me is distance.  I live
       only 2 miles away.  My son comes over to my apartment 4 days a week
       (we lift weights) plus every other weekend, so I see him all the
       time.  He always needs money, I'm always broke, but he always
       asks "just in case".  Because we talk almost everyday, I don't
       think he gets a chance to build up as much animosity over the
       situation.

       My take on sending extra money is;
           - I can't control what she does with the child support and
             alimony that I send her.
           - If she would get a full time job instead of working part time
             and living off her father and me (she has a BS in English
             Literature and 1 child at home) she would have more than
             enough to get anything they need.
       She gets almost 50% of my net, on time every week, so I figure
       I've done my share. 

       I would say, if you can find a way to write (and maybe call) more
       often, then it wouldn't feel so bad when they complain about
       money.


       Richard

    Tony,
    
    I'm sorry.  I know how much you love your children and how hard you
    work at being a good Dad ...
    
    I disagree wiht most of the noters.  Like Steve, I would recommend that
    you write her a brief note acknowledging her letter, tell her that 
    you are sorry that she feels that way and suggest that you would be
    willing to discuss the reasons for her anger is she wants to talk.
    
    I would not get into a telling her your side situation -- I don't think
    you can win.  I also would not answer her complaints point by
    point.  You then get into a you vs mother situation and, let's face it,
    she has the advantage because she's there.  
    
    Thirteen is an awful age -- I distinctly remember wanting to literally
    run over Stacy with the car when she was about that age -- and I
    suspect that she'll grow out of some of the selfishness you see now.
    Meanwhile, I know it hurts and I'm sorry you have to go through this.
    
    Polly
    
    

This sounds like a classic case of brain-washing to me.  This child has no
business knowing the financial situation between her parents.  If her mother
cannot afford to purchase something she needs/wants, her mother should simply
say "we can't afford it" and leave it at that.  Her mother obviously puts her
right in the middle and uses her as ammunition and it is so unfair.

I would not write a letter explaining - you know the mother will read it and
contradict everything you say.  What I would do if I was in your situation is:

(1) Send ONLY the amount that the court orders.  If you want to spend more on
the kids great - put it in a savings account, college fund, or better yet send
them THINGS (clothes, watches, purses, supplies, whatever) so they can SEE that
you are providing for them.  You have no control over how the money is spent
when you send it to your ex, nor do the children see where their "things" come
from.

(2) Call your ex and let her know that she is harming the children's emotional
well-being, and you expect it to end NOW or else pursue the matter in court.
Then follow through on your threat.  Document everything that the children say
and the ex says.  If it goes to court in Texas they will conduct a social study
and assign social workers - you can bet they will get to the heart of the
situation (your ex) and put an end to it or get the children out of it (with
you).  If you feel it is necessary, record your conversation with your ex and
every subsequent conversation (tell her you are doing so).

(3) If you want, write a note to your daughter telling her how sorry you are
that she is angry, and that you want her to know that you love her.  Don't
explain your financial situation or defend yourself, her mother has too much
influence for it to be beneficial.  Just tell her you want to talk to her, and
are there if she needs you - just call/write.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
Kristen

    
    As a custodial parent, I would recommend sending the "stuff" i.e.
    purse, necklaces, earrings, clothes, and even find out what kind of
    music she likes and send her tapes or books of music (for her
    instrument). 
    
    It might be possible to send her a catalog from a large department
    store and ask her to select some clothes or gift idems and put them on 
    a wish list with the under standing that one or two idems might be
    purchaced for her as a gift for a future occation.
    
    I resent when my ex talks to Ange(now 11) and promises things and they
    never show up. Or he will send me the usual child support and ask that
    I get her something extra for easter from him. Then when I dont get the
    flowers(that die in three days) but get the "cool gym bag"she  had been
    wanting he gets upset.
    
    If you cant get ideas of things that they like from them ask some local
    teens for ideas and after you start sending the extras then you might
    here about how I like this color better, I wear this size, ect..
    
    I think Its wonderful that you send extra money when you can. But I
    think that using that extra money on things for your kids is better.
    My daughter always sqeals when something does come to her from her dad.
    This last time is was two packages of those toys that McD's puts in
    thier happy meals. Granted at 11 she has outgrown these kinds of toys
    and when I suggested to him that these would be appropriate gifts it
    was when she was 7 yrs old. She alternated from crying from happiness 
    that her dad remembered her and exclaiming over the 'sand toys' she
    got from him.
    
    Please dont allow them to make you feel guilty. I think you are doing 
    more than most long-distance parents can manage to do.
    
    I would suggest that you continue to write loving letters asking for 
    ideas of things that they like and things that they are doing and 
    If you send them stuff tell them in a letter separate from the box or
    package sent make a copy of the letter and mail the original to your
    daughter or son at your address(for the post mark) Keep these letters 
    as records of your corespondance with them and ask for confirmation
    of things sent(always keep them loving and newsy).
    
    By sending the copy (possibly labled as a copy) with the original sent
    to your home you hold a valuable form of communication just incase
    you ex is making sure that the kids dontget all you communications.
    When/If they come for visits you can then ask them if they are
    recieving the mail you are sending.
    
    As for ideas for gifts I have a group of Girl Scouts that range in
    age from 11 to 13 and thier biggest squeals are over the "New Kids on
    The BLock stuff" One girl in the troop last year had a jeanjacket
    with bandanas weaved in the sleaves and tied down one side and 
    New Kids On The Block" in those fabric paints across the back of it.
    She also had the picture pins of the different "kids" haphazardly 
    placed all over her jacket.
    
    I hope this helps. I strongly recomend that you stop sending extra
    'bucks' and send 'neat' or 'cool' stuff.
    
    Janet
    

    
    The kids may not know that you are sending *anything* let alone extra.
    If the things that are going on are what you say they are, I too would
    recomment against sending extra $$.  When my ex and I were first
    divorced, I was sending the kids $$ in a card for birthdays and such
    (money travels well).  Then I found out that the only thing the kids
    were getting was the cards and a line of b.s. about how "Dad doesn't
    care".  Spend the money directly on stuff that the kids need if you're
    going to spend extra.  Even if it costs extra so ship the stuff.
    
    fred();

    thanks for all the replies.  and sorry about my slow response, but
    Brenda and I have been in Vermont for the last four weeks, and I've not
    had a terminal to get on the system.
    
    but, there have been some changes:
    
    while in VT, my ex-wife called me at my uncle's home (where we were
    staying).  she told me that Nicholas, my 11 yr old son wanted to get a
    saxaphone for shool band.  he was "sharing" a school horn and Peggy
    (the ex) said she'd found a good deal for a used Yamaha for 300 dollars
    and "could/would I help pay for it".  I said yes, and sent her a check
    for half the cost.
    
    later, (this week) Peggy told me that Nicholas had requested she not
    ask me for the help "because he doesn't care".  But, when the check
    arrived, things changed, and suddenly I am no longer "hated".  
    
    In fact, the last time I called, BOTH kids talked to me..!!!  Happily
    and without any reference to what had gone on before (I had continued
    calling them, usually to be told they didn't want to talk...)  In fact,
    our talks were one of the best I've had with them.  They both acted as
    if nothing had ever gone wrong.  
    
    Later (just the day before yesterday) I called Peggy about some medical
    bills, and she mentioned all this to me.  She also said "things" were
    much better around the house, and both kids were behaving and acting
    "normally" once again now that they perceived me as "caring".  Of
    course, she evidently doesn't realize how that perception is influenced
    by her own mood.
    
    I did write to Kami.  A long, (too long I am sure) verbose letter,
    which detailed "my side".  No reference to that letter was made by her. 
    Probably just as well.  
    
    I know I make mistakes being a father... but, I do my best... maybe
    that was another one.  But, I'll live with it.  
    
    Anyway, for the moment, things are trememdously better.  
    
    I really like the suggestions some of you have made about sending
    "things" instead of extra money.  I've even been sending them a check
    for birthdays (a nice big one) for a couple of years now...and I wonder
    about that.  It seems to be what they want (so they can buy exactly
    what they want, or add the money to what savings they may have for
    something else)...  but, I wonder now if I reduce my weekly support
    payments (which I just last month raised again) to what the court
    specified and then send "things" what sort of stink Peggy will cause,
    and what sort of mood swing in the kids it'll cause.  I'll think on it.
    
    But, my first thought is I like the idea.
    
    
    Thanks for all the benny-suggs
    
    tony

    the last few months have been pretty good.  My ex has been civil, and
    the kids (the two youngest ones) have been ok.  My son, Nicky, has had
    some problems (emotional) and I am beside myself wondering what it's
    going to take to get Peggy to take him for some therapy.  I made
    arrangements, and she "couldn't find time" to take him.
    
    Yesterday, I heard about airline special fairs... and had to make a
    quick decision to buy tickets to Texas to visit the kids.  I want to
    have my wife accompany me...she wants to meet Steven (my oldest kid)
    and his wife and visit other freinds.
    
    I called my ex and told her Brenda would be coming with me.  Peggy had
    previously been very "friendly" and sort of insistant that I could
    "stay at the house" whenever I came and visited.  When she heard Brenda
    was coming, she got hostile and by the time I was able to talk to the
    kids, they were literally histerical about it.  Kami (age 15) said she
    didn't want to go with us to visit Steven, and told me I should not
    count on her being "available" to visit much.  (I'd already checked and
    found her schedule was clear for the time we'd be there).  Nicky just
    cried and yelled he didn't want another mom 'cause he already had one!  
    
    They see me as "forcing Brenda on them".  I see them as under their
    mom's domination and refusing to accept the fact that Brenda is part of
    my life now, and this doesn't affect how I feel about them.
    
    My son and his wife want both of us to come...
    
    The choices were:
    
    a.. Take Brenda.  Our intent was/is to let her visit others while I
    visit my kids... to not make them be with her.  They don't seem to
    care.  Of course, this also shortens the amount of time I can spend
    with the kids.
    
    b.. Not take Brenda.  I see this as "hiding" her and a clear victory
    for my ex.  Sooner or later, the kids have to accept the reality of the
    situation.
    
    c.. Not go.  sort of a "if you won't take her, you can't have me".  not
    very sensible or mature on my part.
    
    
	I elected (a).  We bought the tickets last night.  
    
    What would you have done?
    
    tony

    Bravo Tony.
    
    It has been said many times in this and other notefiles; the longer you
    let someone else control your life, the longer it takes you to recover
    and begin living.
    
    I applaud your decision to take Brenda, as I believe she has a right to
    be a full partner in your life.  This of course doesn't mean that she
    usurps your ex-wifes role as the chilrens mother, but she does have a
    place (and that place is with you).  
    
    From all your notes, it seems to me that your ex hasn't "cut the ties"
    yet, and the children are still harbouring fantasies about "MOM and
    DAD" getting back together.
    
    This isn't easy, but sometimes teenage children just have to be let
    alone to arrive at their own conclusions.  I am so ashamed at some of
    the crap I pulled on my parents as a teenager that I could cry.  There 
    was nothing anyone could do to stop it.  But I grew out of it.  And I
    think I made up for it.
    
    May I suggest that you focus on the children who *have* come around
    (your oldest sounds like a good place to start).  Spend *family* time
    with them (with Brenda).  Spend some private time with the others (if
    they will see you).  If  not, don't force it.  Just continue to be
    above-board and straight forward with them, and in all likelyhood they
    will come around.  I would imagine that as you build relationships with
    some of them, the others will want to be in on that.
    
    My heart goes out to you, and a second round of applause for Brenda for
    her maturity and patience in dealing with unreasonable ex's, teenagers
    (in all their glory) and all the other little things.....
    
    Enjoy your trip.
    
    Sue

    re 12.
    
    Take Brenda.  Have a good time with the kids that will see you. 
    Leave the door open to the ones who won't, but don't fonce the
    issue.  They'll soon learn that they can't manipulate you, and that
    the main ones that they are hurting by their behavior are themselves.
    They'll come around eventually in their own time.
    
    fred();