Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

I would definitely seek legal advise NOW, and not wait until it is too late
and she has your son out of state.  Possession is 90% of the law, remember?

Also, please stress to your son that he is NOT choosing between his mother
and his father, and if he chooses to live with his mother, that does not mean
he loves you any less, and you won't love him any less (and vice versa).
Stress this in front of his mother (if possible) and any social worker - this
could take a tremendous burden off of him.

Keep us posted!

Kristen

    
       Like the previous reply I would get legal advise now.
    
       This happened to me ~10 years ago and I was told I could do nothing
    until she left. When she did leave and I finally got her back in court
    the court would not make her move back. Needless to say I was ripped!
    The above move was from Mass to Florida so you can see what happened
    to visitation. 
    
       Check on gettin restraining order or something because once gone 
    you may not get back!
    
    Steve 

    re .0
           - Do you think this is enough of a reason for the court?
    
    You should talk to a lawyer NOW.  If in the eyes of the court the 
    move is "in the best interests of the child", then you will likely
    not be able to do much to stop the move. ie. She has a better job
    in the state where she is moving, or has family there.  If not, then
    you have a good case to stop the move.  If he can stay near his friends
    and school by staying with you, then the Judge may be more sympathetic
    to you.
    
           - Should I get a lawyer involved before my ex moves?
    
    Now.  I'd at least get something that she has to notify you AND the
    court befor she moves.
    
           - Should I get the Guardian Ad Litem from the divorce
             involved? 
    
    For reasons stated otherwise in this reply, personally I would get
    the Guardian ad litem involved.
    
    Getting the Guardian ad litem involved may be a two edged sword.  The
    G.A.L. may advise that the move *is* in the childs best enterest, or
    help block the move.  The G.A.L. can, however, help set up visitation
    guidelines and help make sure they are enforced.
    
           - I told my son he would have to face some questions from the
             court and probably a very hurt and angry mother.  He said
             he was OK with that.  What else should he be ready for?
    
    The mother is going to be the biggie.  I'd tell him that the choice
    he is making is a *big* one.  Also that there will not be any back
    and forth from you to mom.  If he *really* wants to stay, then he 
    should talk to the G.A.L. and make sure that the judge and G.A.L.
    understand that it is HIS choice and not something you've put him
    up to.  It must be your son's choice.  He must understand it is
    HIS choice and if that's what he really wants, then he may have to
    take an *active* part in making it happen.  Which means being ready
    to face the g.a.l., the judge, and his mother.  If it's just *you* 
    trying to make it happen, then the judge will be less sympathetic.
    
    fred();

    Go to a lawyer now and take a copy of the decree/cusotdy order with
    you.  If you have joint physical and legal custody, she may not be
    able to legally remove your son from the state without your or the 
    court's permission.  Get the facts and find out what you need to do
    NOW before it becomes and emergency situation.  Be building a case
    for why it would be in your son's best interests to stay here if
    she moves.  Then, if and when you find that she is, in fact, planning
    to move out of state you'll be prepared to do what has to be done.
    
    This may be time and money spent for naught if she doesn't move, but 
    less expensive than an interstate custody fight that could occur if she
    left before you could do anything.
    
    The GAL may be a good idea if only to provide an objective voice who
    could explain things to your son and a person he could talk with
    without worrying about your feelings or his mother's.
    
    Polly
    
    I'd be thinking about some "carrots" to make your side more
    palatable to her and make you look like a good guy to the court --
    like some liberal visitation rights etc.
    
    Polly

    
    Of course it's a good enough reason to involve the court.
    The "best interests" of your son includes his relationship
    with you and if that will be threatened in any way by a 
    move then certainly you AND your son have good reason to
    be concerned.
    
    Steve
    

  		The following is an update from the base noter.  
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  

       Well, its' been a few weeks since I found out about my ex
       planning to move, and things are less clear now than before.

       - I contacted a lawyer who said a custody change was not
         automatic but it could be done.  About 6 months and no
         guarantees, if it goes to court.  It would be much easier if
         my ex would agree to the change.

       - I called the Guardian Ad Litem from the divorce and she said
         it's a good thing I have joint legal custody and she would
         have no problem getting back into the case if it goes to court.
         She also suggested Ex Parte orders to keep my son here
         until the issue is settled.

       - My ex called my son (he was with me for the last 2 weeks)
         and told him they were moving out of state at the beginning of
         the school year.  He told her he didn't want to go and that he
         wanted to change custody.  She was more than a little upset.
         Over the next few days there were several messages on my
         machine for my son asking if he had though it over and would he
         change his mind.

       - I finally got her to talk to me about the situation the other
         day, and she said "I'm not moving.  I can't afford to stay here.
         [son] never said anything to me about changing custody."


       It doesn't look like this is going to be straight forward at all.
       Am I right in assuming, this can't be done without all of the
       stress being placed squarely on my son's shoulders?

    You're right about one thing.  This is going to be one humongus mess.
    Try thinking of it as going into combat--only without bullets.  It
    sounds like you son is old enough to have a major say in what happens.
    If he can stick to his guns, you have a better than 50/50 chance (IMHO).
    If he decides to go, you're chances are not good.  Leave the decision
    to him and tell him you'll back him 100% if he decides he wants to
    stay.  Again no guarantees.
    
    fred();

    You're right about another thing.  Your son is going to shoulder a huge
    burden.  It can't be helped.  The good thing is that it appears that
    both of you want him 'cause you love him, not because you want to
    deprive the other parent of a "prize" of some sort.
    
    I *strongly* encourage you to find a *neutral* source of support for
    your son while all of this gets resolved.  If you are in Mass, it's
    possible that the school guidance office can give you leads.  This is
    likely to affect his schoolwork and thus comes under Chapter 766
    guidelines.  It's possible that the court-appointed guardian can do it. 
    You might also consider contacting EAP.  But neither you or his mom can
    do it, you're both part of the problem - by definition.  [I went
    through this when my son had to choose which parent to live with at age
    12.]
    
    Best of luck to all of you - and give your kid an extra hug for me :-)
    
    Alison

    When I was eleven (a LOT younger and less mature than boys in early
    teen years), I lived with my sister and brother with my father.  My
    parents divorced when I was four, and we'd all lived with mom until I
    was nearly ten.  Then, to let mom have a break, and start a new life
    with her new husband, the three of us were sent to live "for just one
    year" with my dad.  
    
    After eighteen months, my father posed the question to all of us:
    "do you want to move back to your mother?".  
    
    My Sister didn't hesitate.  "YES".  My brother (her twin) waffled and
    finally said "yes".  They are both 18 months younger than I.  
    
    My answer was "NO".  I chose to stay with my dad.  I can clearly
    remember my thought process:  "If I say YES, then dad will be hurt.  If
    I say NO, dad (who was THERE) wouldn't be hurt...but mom would be. 
    But (I rationalized), mom is clear across the country, and I don't have
    to see her hurt"...  So, to avoid the conflict, I said NO, and wound up
    being separated for several years from my sister and brother, and from
    my mother.  Eventually I got the nerve to ask to live with her, and it
    was done.
    
    My point is:  I firmly believe that no young child should be asked to
    make such a decision.  If that child is lacking in maturity, or is
    especially sensitive to hurting others (a caretaker)... or has any
    number of other personality traits... s/he is probably unable to make a
    rational, objective decision.
    
    Don't unnecessarily burden your son with this decision, unless you are
    SURE he is mature enough to handle it.
    
    
    good luck
    
    tony

       
       Hi, I'm the anonymous basenoter.  I really should have given the
       group an update months ago, but a lot of things have blown by me
       in the last few months and this note was one of them.

       CHRONOLOGICAL OVERVIEW:
       (As much detail as you would like in later replies)

       September '90:
           - My son refused to move to Maine with his mother.  He was
	     14 years old.

           - His mother canceled her plans to move to Maine to live
             with her male companion.  The companion continued to "visit"
             5-6 days per week.  Neither of them has/had a full-time
             job.

           - The marital residence is put on the housing market.

       November '90:
           - My son begins seeing a city youth counselor recommended
             by his Junior High guidance counselor and approved by his
             mother.

       March '91:
           - The city youth counselor asks to meet with me and my son
             together.  In that meeting, my son and the counselor
             explain that my son wants to live with me and they are
             trying to negotiate a non-combative change of custody with
             his mother.  She is "reluctant" to allow a change.

       April '91:
           - The ex calls and tells me she intends to move to the West
             Coast (Washington State or Oregon) in June, and she will be
             taking my son with her!!

           - My son tells me that his mother's male companion has
             traveled to the West Coast looking for work.

       May '91:
           - I offer to buy my ex's interest in the house (60%+ of the
             equity) on the condition that the change in custody takes
             place first.

           - She agrees, (negotiations are taking place through the
             youth counselor).  However, she wants more money than the
             bank will lend me and the deal falls through.

           - I file a motion for a change in custody, Pro se (no lawyer)

           - The ex files a motion for more alimony and to have a
             commissioner appointed to handle the sale of the house
             (long story about payments and taxes owed by her).

        June '91:
	   - Court hearing June 7:
	      � Ex objects to change in custody
	      � Judge says he will restrict her from taking my son out
	        of state for 6 months while the Guardian Ad Litem
    	        investigates.  My son is now 15 years old.
	      � The ex suddenly agrees to give me temporary custody for
	        6 months, so she can move to the coast.

	   - Court order:
	      � I have temporary custody for 6 months starting July 1
	        however, my son can travel with her to help her move out
	        to the coast.  This is her summer visitation.
	      � She pays no child support because she doesn't have a job
	      � I pay more alimony, same reason as above.
	      � commissioner appointed to handle the sale of the house

	   - Last week the Ex refused to:
	      � Provide a destination address or telephone number
	      � Provide access to the house for me to pick up my son's
	        things until after she has left for the coast with him.

	   - Guardian Ad Litem says she will try and resolve the above
	     problems for me.



       All in all, I am a very happy man! {gross under statement, but
       you guys know what I mean}.
       
       Richard

It's nice to hear some good news, I hope everything works out.

Good luck,

John

       
           So my son and I do an "interview" with the Guardian Ad Litem
       to review the temporary custody situation.  The Guardian Ad Litem
       says, yes she will recommend to the court permanent custody to
       me.  Yes, visitation should be no problem, she has spoken with my
       ex and we aren't far apart on when and how long.  The GAL will
       draw up a stipulation, everybody signs and we won't even have to
       go back into the courtroom.  So far, so good.

            Then comes "one small issue".  She (the GAL) says to me,
       "you should be willing to share the cost of plane tickets Boston
       to Seattle WA" whenever my son goes out to visit.
       
       Now let me get this straight:
           - The ex works part-time and pays no child support
           - I still have all that NCP stuff like pay medical insurance,
             and un-insured medical expenses etc.
           - The ex got $xx,000 from the sale of the house, I got $x,000
             LESS than the amount I will owe in capital gains taxes from
             'my share' of the profit. (My share was the one the court
             ordered used to pay off the bills).
           - She moved out of the area to be with her SO, I didn't move
             the child away from her
       and I should share the cost of plane tickets !?!?

       What do you think?  Does it sound like something you would agree
       to, just to keep it out of court and hold expenses down?

    Richard

Hi Richard,

I would kind of be a little upset on having pay a share of the air fare as you
have pointed out;

1) Your ex moved away not you.

2) Your not getting support from your ex.

3) Your still stuck with the usual NCP expenses.

Surely the GAL jests?  I would get a legal opinion on this one, it just can't be
so? 

Surely when the NCP becomes the CP, we should enjoy the same rights as other
CP's, one wonders where's the justice here.

John

    Richard,
    
    
    	You can show that your wife is purposely under employed with a part
    time job. And under N.H. child suport guide lines you should be
    collecting. And if your not, write a motion for such in the state
    of N.H. and have her and her lawyer show up a couple of times from
    Seattle. Its a very long drive from there. The other game is to say
    to the GAL is that with the inpoverished conditions that your forced to
    live in, show her late notices for your electric, if your a renter,
    show her the Demand for Rents and Notice to Quite's that have been 
    stapled to your door. Show the GAl that your interest is for the child,
    but this is an inpovershing request and that it is the ex's choice to
    move, just as it is the ex's choice to become under employed, and that
    it not your duty to fincially kill yourself off becuase she has a belly
    butten window. (translated in more basic terms: she has her head in her
    A$$).

    #1 priority--Get custody.  You can go back and fight over the money
    (again) later, but you don't get too many chances at custody.  Child 
    support/finances can be re-negitiated any time there is a 
    "significant change if circumstance.
    
    fred();

       Well, at long last .... it's over!

           The Ex signed the stipulation last month.  The GAL submitted the
       papers and I just got the "Notice of Decision" in the mail.

       I have physical custody of my son and she has visitation.

       I took your advice Fred, get custody first and deal with the rest
       of the stuff later, if at all.

       Richard

    Congratulations Richard!!!  Welcome back to fatherhood.  Guess you 
    really never left, but.....well, you know what a mean.  Hope it works
    out well for you and your son.  I'm sure it will.
    fred();

    Congrats to you and your son, Richard!
    
    Karen