Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Theo,

    I haven't seen any statistic's for quite some time but if someone 
    does, I would like to see them post them here.

    $550/month sounds like alot but it depends on where you will be 
    residing in the U.S.  Every state has different views on how much
    a child should be granted for support.  Some states have a flat
    rate which is determined no matter what the custodial parent makes
    and other states take into consideration what the custodial parent
    does make.  Other factors involved are if children need special
    tutoring, needs, etc.

    It will be great if you and your soon-to-be-ex can work something out
    together, mainly to keep harmony amongst yourselves and your child.
    Past history from various sources dictates that you could eventually
    run into some disasters along the way in which all parties concerned
    will have to deal with.

    To pass along some words of wisdom, when you return to the states
    things can change dramatically for everyone.  You will fall into
    different categories but still have to abide by you Swiss divorce.
    Depending on your salary, you could wind up paying more or less
    in support.  If she is not working when she returns she could pop
    for alimony.

    As mentioned by various participants in this conference, it's a 
    strange world when it comes to this subject and dealing with it.
    It's one of the most sensitive issues going on in today's society!!

    Good luck and God Bless...

    Kenn

    Many states in the U.S. are going to a set schedule based on the income
    of both parties.  Roughly the formula works something like 
    
    Standard_of_living_for_child_from_schedule *
    (total_salary - their_salary)/your_salary {the reatio of your salary}
    
    $550/month/child sounds like a bit much to me, but it depends on your
    salary.
    
    In most states (I don't know about *all*) you can get child support
    modified if you circumstances change.  I don't know if U.S. has a
    reciprocal support agreement with Switzerland or not.  It could be
    that she can't *force* you to pay anything if you return to U.S.,
    but you'd probably be in a heep of trouble if you ever returned to
    Switzerland.  Not that I'm recommending that's what you do, of course,
    but it could be a negotiating point.
    
    I also don't know what custody/visitation agreements the U.S. has
    witn Switzerland.  It may also become *very* difficult to 
    *enforce* you visitation rights.  Not trying to scare you, but it's
    something you should check into.
    
    fred();

    Theo...
    I wonder if there is any consistency accross the U.S. in determining
    the amount a NCP should pay for child support.  
    
    My divorce decree is from Texas, which uses a formula based on your
    "net earnings" to determine child support payments.  My payments for
    one child would be $480 per month.  I am quite sure the "cost of
    raising a child" in Texas is considerably less than most areas,
    especially California.  I say the payment "would be" because my divorce
    decree specifically spells out the dollar amount.  At the present time,
    I am paying support for three children (ages 12 to 19), and the amount
    deminishes as the children grow out of support criteria.  The point I
    am trying to make (none to clearly, I'm afraid) is that I strongly
    recommend that you try to get the actual dollar amounts specified in
    the decree.  Avoid referencing any formula to determine support, unless
    you know your personal income will go down.  By having the actual
    amounts specified, in dollars and cents, for each child, and by
    accurately and completely describing the conditions and ages under
    which support is paid by you, you will eliminate the CP coming back at
    you for more money (or reduce the likelyhood).
    
    tony

    For us, the full figure reached over $600.  (Colorado Springs)
    
    Don't forget, support is 'assumed' to be split by both, although only
    one pays a set amount, the NCP.  So at $600, the NCP would be paying
    about $300 per month.
    
    -dwight

    Thanks Kenn, Fred() (what does the "()" stand for?), Tony & dwight
    for your help and support. It's great to have some experienced folks
    around, although I wouldn't wish these experiences on anyone. 
    
    A few comments/questions:
    
    Do you know where I can get a copy of such a "schedule" plus an
    example of one of those formulas of the form (total cost of raising)
    * (total cost - their salary)/your salary you mentioned? I'd like
    to play with one. Since I can't foresee what will happen to my salary
    and "lifestyle", I need to make sure my payments can fluctuate.
    
    Tony I'm also inclined towards your advice of being very explicit
    in the dollar amounts and ages to avoid misunderstandings, future
    court actions etc. It's clear in my case if there are future court
    actions, I'll be on the short end of the stick, since they'll happen
    in Switzerland and I'll be "in absentia". Plus, if she decides to
    withhold my son for whatever reason from seeing me, I'll have a
    hell of a time enforcing my visitation rights. There's a kind of
    tension between wanting to have an "open-ended" agreement that allows
    for change, and wanting the security of a detailed and specific
    contract. 
    
    In my case, I thought seriously of coming clandestinely to the US
    with my son, re-establishing residence, asking for a divorce on
    US terms and going for custody. I think I'd have a good chance too.
    The trouble is, Switzerland would never recognize the decision,
    so I'd have to keep my son away from his mother and be in constant
    surveillance for when she'd "steal" him back. That's not the kind
    of life I want to live, even if I want to be with my son and am angry 
    at my soon-to-be-ex. Not very positive for anyone concerned.
    
    So I'm sticking it out, trying to avoid battles in court, since they
    will award her everything (Switzerland=the middle ages). It's been 
    helpful to go through mediation with her family involved. Luckily, 
    they sympathize and think my wife has made a big mistake taking off. 
    So I encourage anyone in a similar situation to try to involve 
    respected third parties to mediate!
                                
    Anyway, final question: does anyone have pointers to the potential
    US/Swiss "mutual visitation enforcement"-type agreements you mentioned?
    How can I find out if there are any? Also, my wife is both swiss
    and american (as is my son). How can I find out if she they would
    be held to the decisions of an american court and if there is any
    way that an american court to take precedence even in the eyes of
    a swiss court?
    
    Whew, what a load of issues...
    Theo
    

    Theo...
    Yours is perhaps the most complex of all the NCP issues I've seen
    discussed.  
    
    I could answer some of your questions (re: formulae for computing child
    support liability,) but only as they pertain to Texas.  I doubt that
    they would be anywhere near the same as in Switzerland.  In fact, I
    suspect the Swiss laws would be more stringent than any here in the
    U.S.
    
    I strongly support your decision not to covertly bring your child here.  
    
    My daughter lives in Germany.  Her children were born there.  According
    to the offices of the U.S. State Department of Immigration, the U.S.
    does not recognize dual citizenship.  That means, that in the U.S.'s
    eyes, your wife and kids are U.S. citizens only.  I imagine that also
    infers that they would recognize and enforce only U.S. laws regarding
    divorce and suupport issues.  I may be wrong.
    
    I know Switzerland recognizes dual citizenship.  I have NO idea how
    they would view U.S. court rulings regarding divorce/support.
    
    WIsh I could be of more help...  
    
    tony

    re .5
    
    Yea, the schedules and formulas are nearly all a bit different from
    state to state and will likely not have any bearing on what goes on
    in Switzerland.  The Colorado formula is spelled out in CRS (Colorado
    Revised Statutes) 14-10-115, but I doubt if you will be able to find
    a copy of those real handy in Switzerland.  For questions about 
    reciprosity, you'll probably have to check with a lawyer familiar 
    with international law.  Check to see if there is anything like a 
    Legal Referral Service there.  In the U.S. the referral service will
    be listed in the yellow pages with the lawyers.  Maybe if there is
    something like the Bar Association there.
    
    fred();-- C function, takes no input, does nothing, returns nothing
    ;^).  

One point to consider when deciding on the amount is whether
it will be paid in a fixed number of Dollars or Swiss Francs.

I'm currently sending money to Ireland, when I started
last year the rate was $1.5 to one Irish pound, since then
the dollar has slipped SIGNIFICANTLY to $1.72 last week
against the IR pound (it's really hovering around $1.65,
last week was probably due to Iraq!!).  We don't have
a fully feldged divorce in place, working on one like
this is complicated, but I'm hoping to get agreement
on a fixed dollar rate, while my ex wants a fixed
Irish pound rate.

One of those things where you could end up in trouble.
Good luck, international divorces like this are
MESSY !!


Bernard.

    Again, thanks everyone for your help!
    
    Regarding my request for examples of the "schedules and formulas"
    mentioned, I realize Swiss law wouldn't recognize a Texan or Coloradan
    formula, but the reason I asked is that I want to make up my own.
    
    While swiss law has a set formula for child support of it's own, 
    (10-15% of current salary, indexed to inflation and also increased
    by set amounts every five years) a judge will also
    recognize and "bless" *any* formula backed up by the two parents.
    So my best hope is to come up with my own and to get agreement on
    it. This will allow me to bring things in like "fixed exchange rate", 
    etc. (Thanks for the hint!) I also want to include things which
    would normally be ignored, like the 2-3 plane tickets I'll have
    to pay each year. Overall, the idea is that as long as I'm making
    a bundle, it's OK to pay, but if my circumstances change, I want
    to establish a certain minimum which will always be respected. THAT's
    the hard part! (My ex said: "Just get child support insurance,
    so if ever you can't pay, the checks will still come in." Anybody
    ever heard of this?)
    
    Another alternative I'd like to look at is: I pay a certain minimum
    every month. And as long as I'm earning well, I also agree to pay
    $x above that into a special fund invested for his college or later use.
    Anyone ever seen an agreement like this?
                         
    Once I can work with my ex to an agreement on these things, I suppose
    I'll be qualified to negotiate simple matters like the release
    of Iraqi hostages, and pullout from Kuwait!         
                                               
    Cheers,
    Theo
           

    1) In Colorado at least you'd probably end up paying more thatn 10-15%.
    
    2) I've never heard of Child Support Insurnance.  Interesting idea,
       but with all the problems in the U.S. aroung support, I'd think
       it would cost big $$$$.  Something *many* non-custodial parents
       find in short supply.  You may try using this as a negotiating point.
    
    3) It looks like you're doing the right thing with trying to get these
       questions settled *now*.  You'll probably be definately at the
       disadvantage if you try to get it changed later.  I don't know
       how Switzerland is about reciprosity, but I know Canada will 
       enforce child suppport, but won't enforce visitation rights.
    
    fred();

    
    Theo,
    
    The laws here vary, but in general you can expect a court to
    require you to pay what you can afford to pay particularly if
    your income is above average.
    
    Your type of situation is probably relatively rare among U.S.
    divorces in general.  I'd suggest that whether or not your
    divorce is processed in a Swiss court that you also get some
    guidance from a U.S. lawyer who has handled something like this
    before.  You may that way be able to influence the final decree
    in Switzerland in a way that will make life easier for you when
    you relocate back here.
    
    Steve

    Thanks Steve. Seems like a good idea. Guess I better get on the ol
    phone again...
    
    Theo