Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

How awful.

I would think that your friend is right to encourage the children to see their
father, and encourage them to have a good time with him.  For an 8th grader,
I don't think it is right to disallow visitation unless there is some sort of
abuse.

On the other hand, I would keep careful documentation of what he is saying
that affects the children negatively.  If it continues then I would warn him
that you are documenting it.  If it still continues then I would go to court
and have him ORDERED to cut it out.

Sounds like there is still much pain in this situation but the children are
not pawns - they should be kept out of it as much as possible.  Your friend
could only benefit by not stooping to that level, NOT encouraging the kids to
tell what their daddy tells them, and encouraging them to have a good, positive
relationship with them (the rest is up to dad and kiddo).

Good Luck!
Kristen

    
    
    Mom can lay it on the line with the two are bringing her the
    unwanted news.  Just tell them that what they are saying is false
    and that it hurts her.  She does not need to tell them (though the
    one in high school should know) that the father is saying these
    things with the main goal to hurt the mother.  Let them decide for
    themselves who the game player is.  
    
    As for the one who does not like dad.  Why doesnt she just tell
    her dad that she doesnt want to see him now and give her reasons.
    There is no reason why any child should be FORCED to have a
    relationship with his/her parents.  It is wrong and it will only
    serve to hurt the child.  If he isn't grownup to accept the
    fact that is his problem (which he certainly seems to have).
    But again forcing her to go see him is hurting HER.
    
    
    In this case there is no reason why the mom can not tell these
    kids her feelings.  They all are old enough (accept maybe the
    6th grader) to understand hurt and the effect it has on their
    mother.  Mind you though.  They too are hurting.  They are probalby
    mad at both parents for splitting up and destroying the
    support base they once had.  
    
    Just a few thoughts

    re .0
    
    >He will alternately exclude this girl from weekends that the
    >other two are asked for or nag and nag her until she goes.
    
    Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this statement?
    Doesn't sound like he's going to be able to make them happy
    no matter what he does.
    
    fred();

    Sorry if this statement is confusing, but it is accurate (remember,
    the ex is a headgame wiz).
    
    An invitation with the other kids should be all that is required.
    Then the choice to go or not should be up to the child in my
    opinion.   She can't come out and tell him she doesn't want
    to go (there is no physical abuse to my knowledge-my daughter
    and she are best friends and I'd be told).  He would not accept
    that and would accuse the mom of causing problems.  He records
    everything to be used in court-still tells the mom that he will
    earn total custody of the kids ultimately.  It was a real ego-
    blow when he lost them first time.
    
    

    the roles are reversed, and the sex of the kids is different, but
    nearly everything else fits my own situation.  
    
    aside from the head games the dad is inflicting on the kids, this
    sounds like a deal where your friend is also being threatened with the
    loss of a home as well:
    
    a.  the ex-husband moved one mile away, and bought a home
    b.  the friend is living in the family home, but has to resolve "his"
    half within two years
    
    I'd guess (since there is a college-age kid) that the marriage lasted
    several years and the parents are "mature" adults.  In that case, more
    than likely, community property law applies to nearly
    everything...including HIS RETIREMENT benefits.  
    
    I bring this up because it can be a negotiating lever for your friend. 
    You see, she may very well be entitled to 1/2 his total retirement
    package(s)...at least to those parts vested during the marriage.  (of
    course, he is entitled to her's as well).  The point is, that 1/2
    entitlement is negotiable, and it might be to her advantage to use her
    interest in his retirement as a lever against his interest in the
    house.
    
    when I divorced my wife...we "swapped equities" so to speak.  I gave
    her my full entitlement to 1/2 our home, and she relenquished any claim
    to my retirement benefits...  this relieves me of having to "worry"
    about "affording her" in my advancing age, and it gives her a "bird in
    the hand" (in case I don't make it to that age!  ;^)
    
    More importantly, it relieved her of the burden of worring about where
    to live in the future...
        
    might be worth her consideration.
    
    tony

Tony,

Can you go back and re-negotiate the division of property once the divorce is
final?  She said the divorce was final already, and I have never heard of one
being able to go back to the bargaining table to renegotiate retirement,
property, etc.....  If so I wish my hubby would go back and get a more
equitable settlement!

From personal experience I cannot agree that the kids (at that age) should be
given the decision.  First of all they are ordered by the court for the
visitation.

Had David's kids been given the decision, they would have chosen NOT to come
with their dad, or else give him an ultimatem (Kristen does not come or I do
not come).  They were not given the choice, and in a short time realized that
I was not the person their mother claimed I was, and they could still have fun
with their dad (with me around) despite the fact that their mother didn't think
they could.  A few times they gave him a choice - "we will come if Kristen is
not around" - and I gave David a choice - "let your ex manipulate you this way
and I'm outa here" - so he decided to FORCE them to come.  And they would have
a great time.  They were very curious about me back then - probably because
being around me much contradicted what their view of me was, based on their
mother.

The father has a right to see his children if he wishes to.  If they don't want
to see him they have that right WHEN THEY ARE OF LEGAL AGE.  And unless there
is physical (or any kind of) abuse, then nobody can or should stop that.  Also,
the mother can have much influence either way, and can help the kids feel better
about their dad, and encourage them to look forward to such visits.

FWIW,
Kristen

    As Kristen said, this divorce is final.  Besides, the ex in this 
    case is self-employed and made certain he had nothing but his share
    of the house and a battered truck to bring to the divorce proceedings.
    On paper, the ex-wife is making more money than he is.  As soon as
    it was final, he bought a new truck, a house for himself and an
    additional property for rental income!
    
    But that is getting off this subject.
    
    The mother has tried to encourage this third child to visit her
    father and to keep in touch.  But she is aware of the possible re-
    tribution (his keeping a diary for court appearances, and actual
    confrontations that have happened in the past when he felt she was
    delaying a visit). It is a constant threat that hangs over her head.
    This divorce has been in effect for 1 year almost.  During a visit
    to my house, the mother asked the daughter to call the father as
    both had promised.  When the girl called, there was no one home,
    and she did not leave a message on the answering machine.
    
    On telling the mom this, my friend wanted the girl to call back and
    leave a message to prove that in fact the call had been made.  But
    the girl refused, did not want to call back incase the dad had 
    got home in the interim.  She clearly didn't want to go to his house,
    and this cause friction and stress between the mom and daughter.
    
    The mom is already stressed because of the enormous financial pressure
    she is under.  I really worry for her.  I don't have any answers
    though, and that is why I'm writing here.
    

    RE: .6
    
    I'm certainly no lawyer...but, as you can see from many replies in this
    conference (and in Blended Families and Men Notes) MANY divorce decrees
    are changed after they are "final".  The word "final" does not mean
    that the decree is the "final word" and "unalterable".  It merely means
    the marriage is severed, or terminated..."final".  Often, one party to
    the divorce approaches the Court and has the decree altered.  It's just
    a document that defines terms which in no way are unalterable.  Of
    course, if one party does not desire the alteration the other party is
    seeking, there ensues a court battle (worst case)...
    
    But, it appears that there isn't any "retirement" to negotiate in this
    case, so my suggestion is moot.  But, there may be other alternatives.
    
    re: .7  
    
    The main point seems to be the hostile/unfriendly relationship between
    the ex-husband, kids, and ex-wife.  Very, very similar to my own
    situation. 
    
    My ex-wife is a bi*ch.  (Euphemistically speaking, of course.)  She
    vascillates between open/outright hostility towards me, and my wife, to
    "friendliness" (her version of friends is sorta wierd).  But, at all
    times, she, being the custodial parent, is in control of the kids.  I
    have lived in MA (2100++ miles from her) for over a year now...and my
    youngest kids refuse to come here.  They are 11 and 14 years old.  In
    fact, just last night, they refused to talk to me on the 'phone.  Not,
    cuz I am any different than I ever was...but, because I was not able to
    fork over an extra $500 for summer activities and they are
    "disappointed".  Of course the Bi*ch derived much pleasure in telling
    me that Nicky was outside playing and didn't want to talk to me because
    I "don't care about them" and "he doesn't have a Father" and ...well
    you get the idea.  Of course, when I was there (just 6 weeks ago)
    everything was hunky-dorey.  
    
    Forcing the kids to come to MA. to visit me seems one alternative, easy
    to talk about, but how do you implement it?  I have no idea?  In fact,
    I am not sure I'd WANT to do that.  Sure, I'd love them to spend some
    time up here for all the reasons...I love them.  I miss them.  I'd like
    them to see where I live (yes, there is a world outside of Texas). and
    of course, I'd like them to really have an opportunity to get to know
    my wife.  
    
    Fat chance...says I.  The Bi*ch controls their thoughts...they are in
    her custody, her power, and her control.  I am far enough away that I
    am out of the picture...they don't even have to talk to me on the
    phone.
    
    I *HATE* this!!!
    
    tony

    
    If the parties AGREE that they want to alter the original settlement
    in some way, and it is equitable to both parties, the court will
    usually go along with it. However, if the parties are not in agreement,
    absent a material change of circumstances from the way things were at
    the time of the divorce, the decree is final and a court will not
    change it.
    
    Perhaps this woman could try to show that the husband hid assets at
    the time of the divorce but she'd have to be able to prove it.  The
    fact he bought the hosue and truck probably do not consitute proof.
    
    I'd urge the original noter to strongly encourage her friend to get
    family counseling for herself and the kids and, probably, some
    individual counseling for herself.  Might make handling the Ex's
    BS a lot easier and should help take some of the strain out of the
    relationship with the kids.