Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    
    That is GREAT news!!!! Congrats Ken. 
    
    Michele and John

    Kenn, this is what I am doing in reverse.  When Jane goes to Canada
    to live with her Dad I want to go to the attorney and draw up an
    agreement (particularly since he is out of the country).  He doesn't
    want to do that (go thru the expense he said) because we have been
    able to work things out up until now and he INSISTS everything will
    be as is.  I still need a portion of the child support (small) to
    maintain a residence for her when she returns.  I am in a quandry
    - things have been good - would I be rocking the boat or protecting
    Jane and myself if I went to an attorney?
    
    Susan
    

Kenn,

How exciting for you!  My husband would envy you if he knew this......

I believe that what you are talking about is maintenance or alimony, not
child support.  If the girls live with you, how could the money you (might
potentially) send your ex be used to support those girls?  I'm sorry but
you don't owe her that - you are no longer her spouse.  If she has absolutely
no other means of support (family, friends, etc.) there are government services
for people in her situation.  I would say you are being compassionate if you
do not request support from her, even though you are entitled to it.

Don't let her situation make you feel guilty.  Your obligation is to your
children and if you are going to provide for them, then she must rely on HER
resources for herself.

RE: .2, Susan I don't see the reasoning that you will need some support from
him to maintain a residence for her when she returns.  The support of this
child is 1/2 your obligation.  While she is gone you simply need to maintain
a residence for yourself and contribute something toward your child.  When she
returns then you are still responsible for yourself and her, but your ex
is also responsible for a portion of her expenses.  If you choose to keep a
residence for her while she is gone, then that is your choice and not his 
responsibility.  Of course all of this is merely my opinion, and please take it
only as such.

Kristen

    Kenn,
    
    Congratulations to both you and your daughters.  It will be wonderful
    for all you you to ahve this time together.
    
    Regaring the the payment of support, in at least three states that I am
    aware of as long as the support is court ordered no matter where the
    children live you MAY be required to pay the support to your former
    wife.  We are in the process of going to court here in Colorado to get
    an order changed requiring my husband to pay his ex support (the
    13 year old came to live with us in December).  We already have custody
    of the 9 y.o. Our attorney told us we MUST get this order changed as
    she can seek back support at any time and could be awarded it!
    
    I would like to address a comment made in a previous reply and by way
    of background:
    
    I am the custodial parent of my two sons (ages 7 & 8) (and was a single
    prent for nearly 6 years) and the custodial STEP-mom of my husband's two 
    sons (9 & 13).  How we obtained custody of both boys is a long and painful 
    story but my entry is to address a comment regarding maintaining a 
    residence for a child when they visit the other parent.
    
    I agree that the CP is required to provide aproportionate of support (I
    use the term proportionate to imply that one parent may make more and
    therefore may pay more towards support), for the housing, clothing,
    feeding, etc. of the child(ren).  Realistically, when seeking shelter,
    you take into account both your income and the provided support, then
    take away all the expenses, both yours and for the children, and then
    find a place you can afford to live in that comes as close as possible
    to giving your children a safe, healthy environment, i.e., a home. 
    When the children are visiting the other parent, if some or all of the
    support is withheld, it wil limpact you to a degree.  How much it
    impacts you is obviously tied to what your income is and your expenses
    are.
    
    Speaking from experience, at one time I was making almost as much as my
    former husband after he paid support and if you added the child support
    to my income.  So when the children went to visit their dad for 2
    months one summer (the very first time that had seen him for more than
    10 days) I asked for NO support even though my decree celarly states
    that I am entitled to 1/2 the support for any visitation periods of
    greater than two weeks.  That provision was insisted on by his attorney
    as my attorney did not address the issue.  It came to apss that I
    relocated to another part of the country and took a VERy large cut in
    pay.  I asked my ex to honor the agreement and when I had
    re-established I would be happy to honor the last year's agreement.  He 
    was EXTREMELY upset at this and have me a pretty fair amount of grief
    over it.
    
    So I guess what I am trying to say is that she may truly need the money
    to maintain a lifestyle for her and her daughter.  It is not for us to
    judge what that lifestyle is.  She did not sya she wanted all the
    support, only a portion of it. Be compassionate.  Not all CP's want to
    put the NCP through the wringer.
    
    

>    So I guess what I am trying to say is that she may truly need the money
>    to maintain a lifestyle for her and her daughter.  It is not for us to
>    judge what that lifestyle is.  She did not sya she wanted all the
>    support, only a portion of it. Be compassionate.  Not all CP's want to
>    put the NCP through the wringer.

I will admit that I am not the most compassionate when it comes to my husband's
ex.  I would rather give to a charity than to her, even if she is the children's
mother - besides, a charity is tax deductible!  Now that does not mean that I
mind providing for the children because I don't - I DO mind providing for her.

You said she may truly need the money to maintain a lifestyle for her and her
daughter.  She is entitled to some money to maintain the lifestyle for her
daughter, but it't not her ex's responsibility to provide ANYTHING toward
maintaining a lifestyle for herself.  While her daughter is with her, does she
send some money her ex's way to help HIM maintain a lifestyle for the child?

We have the kids 6+ weeks during the summer and have to pay total support
during that time - this is totally outrageous - she must still make her car
payment and rent payment, but nothing else toward the boys - and that comes
nowhere close to the amount she gets from us on her free ride.

I realize that not al CPs want to put the NCPs through the ringer.  As little
as I think of ours, I don't think she wants to do that to us.  I do believe
that she uses a good portion of the child support to support HERSELF, and 
uses us as a resource when she COULD AND SHOULD find another source.  Because
she chose not to go to college and educate herself, and she prefers a non-stress
low-paying job to a high-stree high-paying job, THAT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM.  I
spent a good number of years in undergrad and grad school to educate myself so
I could have nicer things, and provide for MY children.  It also cost me about
$35K or more to do it.  She is not entitled to any of that because of the path
she has chosen for herself.  But she feels we should do more for her because we
have more resources.  BS!  She made her own bed, just as I have.

Yes this CP may need some resources to maintain her home and car while the
daughter is gone.  But the ex will use more resources than normal to entertain
and maintain the daughter when she is with him.  The way I see it, each of them
has a few more expenses so each should plan ahead to cover the expenses, and
count on their own resources to cover them.

This is dragging on - obviously I have strong feelings on this topic.  I also
have an idea that, if I ever get the energy, I may start a lobby for.  That is
another topic altogether, maybe I'll post it someday.

Kristen

    Kristen,
    
    I follow you in Blended also.  I am aware of some of the issues that
    you have had to face surrounding your husband's ex. I do sympathize
    with all of that.  I too have to deal with a husband's ex.  The 13 year
    old was in a "hospital" (much as Kenn's daughter) during that time we
    had to continue to pay support to her - all of the support.  When he
    was discharged the recommendation was for him to live with us.  He came
    with the shirt on his back, torn jeans, a jacket and the restof his
    worldly possessions in a gym bag.  And to add to all that his mother
    insisted on getting her final check as she still had physical custody
    of him for the first 15 days in December.  We are now going to court to
    chage custody and stop the support order.  I fully expect the S**t to
    hit the fan when she gets our attorney's letter.  She is a vindictive
    and spiteful woman and has caused us, and more importantly, their
    children more grief than you can imagine.  And that translates to alot
    of pain for all the rest of us in the family.  
    
    As  to what got us going on this track... well from reading all her
    replies in other notes, she (.2) does not seem to be hard to deal with nor
    does her ex.  She could possibly show him what it does cost to maintain
    a home for the daughter, you know, list expenses, etc.  The amenities
    outside of food, clothing and shelter should not be her sole
    responsibility. So I guess, that if they can share that type of
    information, it would be easier for the Father to agree to continue
    with a portion of the support. 
    
    Now as to Kenn's situation, there is no way on God's green earth that I
    would continue to send support to the ex.  Kenn will be assuming full
    responsibility for the oldest daughter and may be also for the
    youngest.  I am understanding that the youngest may not make a
    permanent move.  
    
    My comments in .4 come from .2 's perspective that the
    child will be returning to her.
    
    In your case, I cannot help but sympathize with you having to send
    support AND have the boys with you for that length of time.  It is not
    equitable.  But what I would say to be more equitable would be a
    reduction for the time period that they are with you.  I know she is
    not open to discussions of this sort right now, but maybe at some point
    in the future?
    
     

    Re: .6
    
    It is not the ex who would not be open to such a discussion (having the
    boys less time), but my husband.  To him 6 weeks just doesn't cut it,
    and I can't say I wouldn't feel the same in his shoes.  The past 2
    summers the ex offered the kids for the whole summer - I reluctantly
    agreed on one condition:  that she refund 1/2 of the support for the 6
    weeks that SHE would have had them.  She refused, and I ended up the
    bad guy (from my hubby's point of view) for holding my ground.
    
    I dunno, I have always been self-sufficient so I have never walked in
    the shoes of some here.  I suppose if she has real expenses that she
    can relate to the daughter, then a PORTION of those might be met by the
    ex.  But at the same time realize that his expenses are quite a bit
    higher during the same period and that must also be considered.
    
    I just feel that too many people turn to their ex when times are down,
    rather than find new resources.  Many ex's feel some guilt about not
    coming through with aid because of the children involved.  This just
    isn't right, but I see it happen all the time.
    
    Gosh I hope I'm never an ex, or a single CP.  Too many problems!
    
    Kenn, good luck with the girls!  You (and your wife) have your work cut
    out for you - especially if they are anything like I was at their
    age!!!
    
    Kristen

    Some clarification:
    
    When I bought my condo, I knew I had to look for one large enough
    for both of us. If I were by myself, I could have gotten away with
    a one-bedroom and loft, etc., but I bought a full two-bedroom, w/deck,
    etc. in a good area with an excellent school system.  My mortgage
    is based on my salary but they did look at the child support in
    evaluating my credit rating.  All I am saying when I say that my
    ex needs to continue to give me a minimal amount is that I need it
    to maintain the residence so that when Jane comes home, we will
    still be in adequate housing.  It is impractical to sell my condo
    for a smaller one and then repurchase a larger one in a year when
    she comes home.  My ex is willing to do this so that Jane will have
    a sense of continuity and security.  
    
    I have always been self-sufficient, even when I was married.  I
    was married 10 years and worked before, during and after (taking
    2 yrs off to be with Jane after she was born).  I will be getting
    a part-time job when Jane is in Canada to help with the expenses
    and save some money.  I do not fall back on my ex for anything but
    help with Jane.  In fact I don't lean on anyone for anything except
    friendship.  If you have read other notes authored by me, you know
    I do not have family to help either.  I am the most independent
    and self-sufficient of all the single parents I know.  I pay for
    or trade/time for every babysitting that is needed.  I volunteer
    my time and talent for several worthy causes in my area and am active
    in my church.  I feel I give more than I take and I like it that
    way.
    
    When Jane goes to Canada for the summer, I do not take child support
    for August.  This was a suggestion by me and my ex accepted it.
    We try to be fair with each other.  
    
    Kenn, your situation sounds very different from mine.  It is hard
    to let someone you care(d) about learn the hard way, but maybe that
    is what your ex needs - I don't know - I'm not in her shoes -  Thank
    God.  You will have some adjustments with your new family but I
    just know it will all work out.  I wish some of my single mother
    friends had ex-husbands like you.  Can you be cloned?
    
    Best of luck,
    Susan
    

I appreciate  your defense .8 Sounds very reasonable. I was also suspecting that
fuel bills, water bills house maintenance bills would be tough to separate out.

It is strange how these conferences can take on the aspect of personal attack...
Still it is probably a worthwhile exercise to explain your defense so that all
of us can understand the issues. 

When my wife started getting interested in divorce she was originally interested
in sharing physical custody in an adjoining duplex.
She was explaining to me why she felt that after divorce we should both be
able to live within the same financial limits. She said that if I make more
money I should share it with her, so that the children wouldn't experience
any difference between living with one of us or the other. (the divorce is
her idea). While my mouth was still hanging open I managed to ask her how she
came to this conclusion. Did she feel that I had restricted her ability to
develop a career ? No. Did she feel that I had pushed her into the childcare
role ? No. Did she feel that her Masters Degree wasn't a valid ticket to getting
a career ? No. So why did she feel that I had to bear the difference in future
earning power ??? 
	Because society is screwing women! And as one of the men you have to
make up for it.

I have seen the light. My latest fantasy is that I get custody of the kids,
a court-mandated contribution of her appropriate percentage toward child support,
and that every year on mother's day my kids and I march in a parade for equal
opportunity for mothers. :-)

Seriously, though, I think when you start looking at childsupport, it often
is seen as more than just childsupport. And when she gets custody (95% likely)
she will make sure that she has a place big enough for everyone (I would too),
but somewhere in my budget I will suddenly have to try to also have a place
that is big enough for the kids to feel a sense of home with me, and you know
how hard it is to keep one home running $$$ now try two ! She can say she will
be fair with me down the road, as far as time spent with the kids, and in the
end use my money in the same way as she did when we were married !!!
<flame off>(sorry if I piggy backed on you guys)

Well I got brave and put my put my idea in writing.  I posted it in
BLENDED_FAMILIES but it might have been appropriate for either conference.

Susan, no defense was necessary.  We'll consider it different opinions from
different sides of the track.  I don't see how the volunteer work, etc. fits
into the conversation - just about everyone I know volunteers their time,
talents, money, energy in some way - but if you see a relation fine.

I hope that all turns out best for JANE, however you work things out.

Kristen

  Sorry it has taken me a day or so to reply but it's HELL around here.
Can't get any noting done because I have to work.  Oh well...

On the serious side though, I am hoping that some justice will be servered
in regards to the child support issue.  I found out Monday evening that 
she has obtained a job and also may be working part time.  I wished her 
luck on both of them and that was all I could say.

Even though my ex and I are talking I suspect she is going to pursue the
matter that since she will be maintaining a domicile for the children, 
therefore she should be entitled to some child support.  Now the courts
in Illinois "usually" agree on this but with my lawyer (should we need
to go to court) he is for fairness in the courts.  Nowhere does it state
that if I have custody of the children that I be required to provide
the ex with "domicile money".  It does however state that if they reside
with me temporary (summer visitation) that my ex is entitled to this
support. 

Now the touchy part comes is that I will gain permanent custody of 
Sabrina and "temporary" custody of Jenny.  My lawyer feels that the
courts may award my ex some monies to maintain the domicile but we are
going to request that this be entered as alimony SINCE it will be 
mainly for her, even though the girls will be living with me.

Either way, I hope the ex and I can work things out among ourselves
but if the unfortunate happens, then I'm going to fight with all force,
FOR THE CHILDREN!!

    So those boys didn't get to visit with dad for the whole summer
    because the ex refused to refund 1/2 child support?  The issue boiled
    down to money.  I guess Dad will have to live with himself for this
    one.  Sounds like between the both of you, you could afford the
    whole summer with or without the ex's refund.

    I do not normally have anything to disagree with tht other
    correspondents to issues,but this time I feel that I have to work
    to help the correspondent in 61.12 to understant that the money is
    never the issue and neither is the desire to have the children visit 
    It is the declaration of what is toleratable and what is not. 
    Custodial parents love to say they have to provide for the children
    whether they are there ar not .  this is true but out of the same
    breath the will say the day to day expenses are high.  If they are not
    incurring the expense they should be willing to refund the expense the
    the person incurring the expense.  Additionally the cp typically uses
    finances and child custody to yank the ncp around as it related to the
    children.  This being the cas please do not judge anyone who would deal
    with the issue differently than you.
    

    re.13
    
    I understand and agree with you, as well as with others, on the
    issue of who gets what when.  But, sometimes in "matters of the
    heart" the hard cut "rules" should be put to the side.  
    
    I disagree that money is never the issue, because money is an issue.
    Even if only in principle, money is an issue.  Money can express
    love and devotion.  Love doesn't cut it alone.  Yes, money is not
    the most important thing in life, but to dismiss money as an issue
    in custody disputes or child-support is simply unrealistic and untrue.
    
    I, would not like to explain to my chilren that the reason I couldn't
    visit with them for more time was based on the principle that their
    mom refused to refund or to support them for our time together;
    if in fact, I could support them and wanted to.  To hell with their
    mom and her money.  Who wins or loses in the end?!  If my ex had
    custody and I was offered more time with my kids, and I had the
    resources, I'd take them.  I could care less what was fair in the
    end.  At least, we were able to have the time together and how can
    one measure that in dollars?
     

re: .13 & .14

I believe money can be an issue under some circumstances when distance divides
the NCP and the child. In my case I live about 60 miles from my ex-spouse who
lives in the our last matrimonial home out in the country. I in turn for
financial reasons live in the big city (job, traveling costs, etc...).

If I wish to talk to my son (which I do weekly) I must foot the long distance
bill if the call is to take place at all. When I have him (every second weekend)
I must foot that expense also. My ex-spouse will not allow him to call me
because it runs up her phone bill or even meet half way to share traveling
costs.

To me, access by phone and visitation is far more important than $$$$ and ����
issues, but it's still an issue.

John 

    .11
    
    Sounds to me more like the issue of alimony vs domicile money as bingo
    and bean-o are of the same breath. If the ex is healthy, ablebody, etc
    in a day of equal pay for equal work she should be paying you alimony
    and child suport. But the point that sounds like what she is really
    after is a wash out of her having to pay child suport with this
    domicile money. Sad, as pointed out, money sits in the way of child
    visitations, but, in the same breath I had to pay child suport when I
    had vacation of my daughter as well. Sounds like fairness of our court
    systems all right................:) Who can say what is really goin on
    but careful observations point to me that this is whats going on in the
    oposing camp today. 
    
    Good Luck! And congrads on you custody!
    
    George