Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

  This is a response to the original note.  The reponse was requested to
be posted anonymously.

**************************************************************************

A couple of things happened this weekend that I would like to share and ask
the readers of this file for their opinions/comments.  Before I get into it,
though, let me give you a little background.  My ex has a history of alcohol/
drug abuse.  Because of this, the court has restricted his visitation
to 2 hrs., on-site and supervised to take place every other Sunday.

Now, over the last several months, my ex has relied upon friends to drive
him to my home so he could visit with our son.  Last week, while reading
the local paper, I noticed that this one "friend" had been arrested for
domestic assault and battery.  When I next spoke to my ex, he told me the
friend "knocked her mother out".  My opinion of this friend just became
lowered.

>>> I can certainly understand your concern.  But she had not been tried
>>>and proven guilty and you are not aware of the specific situation.  She
>>>may have been attacked or abused.  Why did you put friend in quotes?

Saturday night I left a message for my ex asking if he would be coming to
see our son on Sunday.  Sunday morning I receive a call from him telling
me he just got in, from Friday night.  Apparently, this friend was asked
to leave her parents home.  When my ex's roommates would not allow him to
bring friend and her 2 children there, my ex paid for them to stay in a
motel for the weekend.  

>>> I don't think its any of your business where he spends the night.  I 
>>>assume he spent the night at the motel so he didn't just pay for them.
>>>He paid for himself too.

I ask you: how would you feel if you found out your ex was paying a motel
bill for someone else when his own son needs things but you can't afford
them because your ex owes you almost $5,000 in back support.  Wouldn't you
be upset? (FWIW: I only get $60/week plus $5/week toward to the back
support.)

>>>  It sounds like you ex is contributing back support.  I would assume 
>>>that he can do whatever he wishes with his own money without your ok.
>>>Quite frankly if he is paying what the liberal courts dictate he pay,
>>>then he ought to do what he wants with the remainder.

The second issue involves this friend also.  She was his transportation
to see our son Sunday and I said that she wasn't allowed in my home.  I
didn't want my son subjected to someone who "knocked her mother out".  My
ex thought I was wrong, but I thought I'd made myself clear.  Apparently
I didn't make myself clear enough...


>>> Again, you don't know the whole story.  An alternative approach
>>>on your part might have been to acknowledge the problems with his
>>>girlfriend and set certain guidelines while they are in your home.
>>>I get the impression that this woman is special to him and (I think)
>>>that she should get to know his (your) son better.


They arrived and I said I was sorry but I had told him this was HIS visit
with our son and she'd have to leave.  He had the nerve to start to go
with her!  There's my son, standing there all excited to see his daddy, and
he wasn't even going to bother with him because I wouldnt let this friend
in the house.

>>>> You set the rules.  You drove him away and you don't seem to take
>>>>ownership for it.


Needless to say, we had a major blow-up and I reminded him that his son
was his #1 priority and if he left with this friend then he was going to
look his little boy in the face and tell him that daddy wasn't going to
stay to see him because his friends are more important because I wouldn't
hurt my son that way.

>>> It sounds like you used emotional blackmail on him by using his son
>>>against him.  Not fair.

>>>While your son might be *your* number one priority, your husband's
>>>priorities might include establishing a serious relationship.  Of
>>>course his son is a priority but he may be trying to incorporate
>>>a number of priorities (his "friend" and his son and her kids) into his 
>>>life. In my opinion I think he's trying to balance his life.

End result: He stayed.  I also ended up with the friend in the house 
because my son wanted to play with her children.  But I made it clear to
both of them, I didn't think much of her for standing in his way of spending
time alone with his son.  She could have taken her kids to the playground 
down the street and avoided all this.  I also made it clear I didn't think 
much of him for putting someone else above his own son and that I never want
to remind him of his responsibilities to that little boy again.

>>> I don't believe that she was the one that stood in the way of your
>>>ex spending time with his son.  You should take ownership for that.
>>>Perhaps she was there because he wants her to be a part of his and 
>>>his son's life.  I don't know that he was or wasn't putting her needs 
>>>ahead of his.
>>>It seems to me that he was showing consideration for her as a friend.
>>>He was there to see his son - doesn't that tell you that his son is 
>>>a priority?

I spent most of the day in tears out of hurt for my son.  I knew my ex could
be a jerk, but I didn't think he was this big of one.

>>> I think you should examine more closely why you felt pain.  It doesn't
>>>sound to me like he was a jerk.

Do you blame me for not wanting my son to be in the company of someone who 
would "knock her mother out"?  Am I wrong for insisting his father get his 
priorities straight?  How would you have handled it?  Would you have let him 
leave?  If so, what would you have said to a very hurt 3 yr old?  As it is,
this did have an impact on my son because now he's asking about "daddy's
kids" and I've had to assure him that he is "daddy's only child" and "daddy's
#1"; that these were just daddy's friend's kids.

>>>>OK - you asked what I would do.  First I'd set some household rules.
>>>I'd give his girlfriend the benefit of the doubt but toss her out at
>>>the first hint of trouble.  I'd also file a police report. 
>>>I would make sure that my son was treated 
>>>kindly and with respect and love by whoever was in the house.  I would put
>>>petty jealousies behind me.  I would have my ex, myself and my son sit 
>>>down and answer any questions that my son or myself might have about
>>>"arrangements".  I would be polite to my ex's friends because you have
>>>no choice in who might become your son's stepmom - you'd just better
>>>hope that she is good to him.
>>>This may not be what you want to hear, but these are my thoughts.

    This is probably the wrong place to come for sympathy, but:
    
    1)  If he is paying the amount of support ordered, then you have
        no buisness about what he is doing with the rest of his money.
        I know how you feel, though, I get P.O.'ed when the "child-
        support" that I pay goes to support my ex and her "husband".
    	The way today's laws are, there's not much I can do about
        that one either.
    
    2)  If he is NOT paying the amount ordered, that is an issue in
        and of itself.  What he is doing with the money makes little
        or no change.
    
    3)  You do have the right to ban anyone you so choose from your
        home for whatever reason.  However, you may want to consider 
        the complexities of the situation and try to keep things as
        civil as possible if your child is indeed your no.1 priority.
    
    fred();

                  Response from author to 57.1
**********************************************************************

>>> I can certainly understand your concern.  But she had not been tried
>>>and proven guilty and you are not aware of the specific situation.  She
>>>may have been attacked or abused.  Why did you put friend in quotes?
 
   I am aware of the specific situation but didn't feel it necessary to
   give the details behind it.  The word friend in quotes was just an 
   error in editing.

>>> I don't think its any of your business where he spends the night.  I
>>>assume he spent the night at the motel so he didn't just pay for them.
>>>He paid for himself too.

   Ah, but you are making an assumption, aren't you?  Personally, I don't
   give a hoot who he spends the night with.  I do care when he cries
   poverty to me after paying someone else's way when he knows how much
   he owes me.

>>>  It sounds like you ex is contributing back support.  I would assume 
>>>that he can do whatever he wishes with his own money without your ok.
>>>Quite frankly if he is paying what the liberal courts dictate he pay,
>>>then he ought to do what he wants with the remainder.

   FWIW - the court did not dictate what he pay in support.  I knew he
   had more money problems than I did then (2 1/2 years ago), so I agreed
   to this amount with the understanding he would pay more once he got on 
   his feet again - another instance where he failed to keep his word.


>>> Again, you don't know the whole story.  An alternative approach
>>>on your part might have been to acknowledge the problems with his
>>>girlfriend and set certain guidelines while they are in your home.
>>>I get the impression that this woman is special to him and (I think)
>>>that she should get to know his (your) son better.

   Again, I DO know the whole story.  This is NOT his girlfriend, just
   a friend.  She happens to be married, but separated, to the brother 
   of one of my ex's roommates.

>>>> You set the rules.  You drove him away and you don't seem to take
>>>>ownership for it.

   Although I set the rules, I did not drive him away.  The rules were
   set before they arrived.  He has been told in the past, and again
   that morning, that no one was allowed in the house other than him.  
   Whenever I've allowed him to have someone visit with him, he's spent 
   more time visiting with them than with his son.  When he's only allowed 
   2 hours every other Sunday, I think it important he use all this time 
   with his son and not with his friends.


>>> It sounds like you used emotional blackmail on him by using his son
>>>against him.  Not fair.

   Why?  Because I expect him to face his son and explain to him why his
   daddy won't stay to see him?  Not emotional blackmail - just not going
   to responsibility for his actions.

>>>While your son might be *your* number one priority, your husband's
>>>priorities might include establishing a serious relationship.  Of
>>>course his son is a priority but he may be trying to incorporate
>>>a number of priorities (his "friend" and his son and her kids) into his 
>>>life. In my opinion I think he's trying to balance his life.
 
   Two weeks ago he was still in love with me.  Two weeks prior to that
   he was serious about someone he'd become friends with six weeks prior
   to that.  This doesn't sound like someone trying to balance his life.


>>> I don't believe that she was the one that stood in the way of your
>>>ex spending time with his son.  You should take ownership for that.
>>>Perhaps she was there because he wants her to be a part of his and 
>>>his son's life.  I don't know that he was or wasn't putting her needs 
>>>ahead of his.
>>>It seems to me that he was showing consideration for her as a friend.
>>>He was there to see his son - doesn't that tell you that his son is 
>>>a priority?

   Again, I did not stand in the way of his visit with his son.  He was
   told prior to his arrival that he would be the only one allowed in the
   house.  The courts told me that he has no right to bring anyone into
   my home; visitation was granted to him, not his friends.  As I said
   earlier, I've been lenient in the past but when it interferes with the
   time spent with our son, I feel it necessary to put a stop to it.  The
   fact this friend had just been arrested didn't help.

>>> I think you should examine more closely why you felt pain.  It doesn't
>>>sound to me like he was a jerk.

>>>								I would put
>>>petty jealousies behind me.  I would have my ex, myself and my son sit 
>>>down and answer any questions that my son or myself might have about
>>>"arrangements".  I would be polite to my ex's friends because you have
>>>no choice in who might become your son's stepmom - you'd just better
>>>hope that she is good to him.
>>>This may not be what you want to hear, but these are my thoughts.

   I don't have any petty jealousies to put behind me.  I could care less
   who he dates.  If it matters to you any, I am very happily seeing
   someone and have no reason to be jealous.  Afterall, I divorced him, 
   not the other way around.

   In addition, I am always polite.  However, being polite does not mean
   that I have to allow the person(s) in my home.

   Sounds to me like you've been burned and hold a lot of hostility toward
   an ex.   
  

    Boy oh boy...  I can't believe some of the stuff that I've just
    read!
    
    .1 - Don't you think this woman's ex should concentrate on his
         relationship with his son *alone* rather than bringing in some
         woman (who obviously has some severe problems of her own)
         and possibly confusing this 3 year old boy?  After all, he
         only sees his boy for 2 hours every other weekend.  Also,
         from what I read about the ex and his girlfriend, chances
         are their relationship isn't too stable from the way they
         sound.  Now, of course I'm only speculating here and perhaps
         I shouldn't do that, but these people sound people sound
         really unsavory to me.  Sure, the girlfriend hasn't been
         tried and found guilty yet for battering her mother, but
         I think the base-noter is well within her rights to not
         want to expose her son to the girlfriend.
    
         About her "driving him away"...  I don't get that impression
         at all.  She stated that she told him up front that she didn't
         want him to bring his girlfriend along but he did anyway.
         Sounds to me like he was the one trying to start something
         and that he put her in an awkward position.  He forced her
         to compromise her own morals ,and *he* was the one who used
         her son.  I think *he* was guilty of emotional blackmail.
    
         Also, you seem to me to be twisting this whole thing to sound
         like it was her fault.  I think you're very wrong and that her
         ex-husband *is* a total jerk.  Actually, what I had in mind
         is a lot stronger and wouldn't be allowed in this notesfile.
         
      
    To the base-noter:
    
         I don't think there are any easy answers to your problem.
         I feel for you and can't imagine at all what I would do
         in the same situation.  I can only thank God that I don't
         have this problem.  FWIW - I'm on your side and you've
         certainly got my sympathy.
    
    - Kathryn
    
      

    .3 sneaked in while I was typing .4...  See?  I knew there was more
    to her story.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    To the base-noter:
    
    	Sounds like you have been very patient.  You certainly have
    a right to say who is allowed in your home and who is not.  In general,
    I would agree that he has his priorities mixed up and can't define
    the word "serious" in any part of his life.  I do give him credit
    for seeing his son even on a limited basis.  
    
    	The looser is his son.  He can see all this taking place but
    can't sort it out.  My advise:  keep as much of this "altercation"
    out of his hearing and try to remember "keep in mind what you can
    control and what you can't".
    
    Sue
    

    From the majority of everything I have read in your note, I would
    like to say "HURRAH FOR YOU!!"

    BUT, there are a couple of things that previous noters mentioned
    and I will have to tend to agree with them.

    You have the right to allow anyone in your home that want.  Under
    the circumstances you were faced with, you did the only thing a
    mother could do and that was allow the friend to stay during the
    visitation, THIS TIME!  But I would make it VERY CLEAR AGAIN, that 
    the next time only the father would be allowed to visit or you
    would seek a neutral territory for the visitation to take place
    at with another neutral party present.

    As far as the friend goes, there is nothing you can do about her.
    Your ex has every right to see who ever he wants, but that doesn't
    mean he has the right to bring her along and expect you to be a host
    to her.  If he is that kind of father, then so be it, but you don't
    have to play the game along with him.  It appears that he is trying
    to make an effort to see his son, but he is also playing games with
    the two of you.

    He want's you to see that he has another "family" that tags along
    with him and he is trying to influence your son by using the same
    method.  Again, it's a very dirty game he is playing, but you are 
    powerless over it.  I have a few choice words for this individual
    but I can not state them here as you know, but try to remember,
    what goes around, comes around.

    I want to say that I am behind you 100% and that my prayer's are
    with you and your son.  I hope that someday your ex will wake up
    and realize what he is doing to his son.  After all, he is the
    one that *really* counts.  

    One last thing and that is, DON'T try and destroy your ex in front
    of your son and DON'T tell him nasty things about why his father
    can't visit with him.  Just tell him that daddy has some problems
    he needs to work out.  Then take him out somewhere like the park
    and get him an ice cream or take him to the zoo or just do something
    else.  Get him away from the current environment for awhile.  That will 
    help ease the pain on him and he'll also know that *YOU* love him.

    Some time ago, I learned a prayer that I recite almost daily and
    it has helped me immensely.  In closing I would like to share it
    with you.  I'm sure that you have heard it.  It's called the 
    Serenity Prayer.


	God grant me the Serenity to accept the things 
		I can not change;
	The Courage to change the things I can;
	And the Wisdom to know the difference.
				Amen


Good luck and take care,


Kenn

			reply posted anonymously
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Reference 57.3 - note from the originator.

   "Sounds to me like you've been burned and hold a lot of hostility toward
   an ex."   
  

>>>> No, actually you are the one with a problem with the ex.  That
was the purpose of *your* note - you asked for an opinion and you
got it.  I told you what I honestly felt and I am sorry that I
didn't agree with you but we are all different and unique, right?

I want to clarify that no, I haven't been burned by an ex,  I am
happily married for the first time to a wonderful man and have two
very loving stepchildren.  We have an amiable relationship with my
husband's ex and her current husband.  We consider the needs of 
everyone involved, i.e. the kids, ourselves, each other and have
not had *any* conflicts (knock on wood!)  ;^)
Yes, it is true - stepparenting can be a wonderful experience.  We
are all mature adults and try to understand one another - even though
BTW we are very different types of people.

I know I am very lucky.  I would not have married my husband if I
didn't love and understand him and his children and also understand
the complexities of divorce.

I think divorce s*cks.  I have seen the pain it can cause, but I have
also seen that for a divorced person there is always hope that their
life will be different and in many ways better.  It takes time.
*ALOT* of time.

Sorry if I was too abrasive, you and your son have my sympathy.

    This is all quite confusing.  I've read the entire string a couple of
    times now, and come up with the following feelings:
    
    After reading the basenote, my reaction was similar to reply .1.  In
    fact, I felt almost exactly the same way...that the author of the base
    note was vindictive, manipulative, and emotionally blackmailing her ex. 
    I concurred that, small as it might seem, his apparently consistant
    attempts to rectify the back-payment issue and continuing support
    indicated honesty and concern, and that the author's concern was
    manefested from anger, greed, or any number of other high emotions.
    
    When I read the base-note's author's reply (.2), my feelings subdued
    some, and I now feel:
    
    .0 was written by someone who is vindictive, manipulative, and
    emotionally blackmailing her ex AND is very skilled at rationalizing 
    this behaviour.  
    
    tony

    re. .9 - I reached the same conclusion.
    
    Karen

    
    re 9
    
    I also agree.  One of the things that annoys me is that folks who
    can rationalize a behavior which is hurting others.  How can they do
    it?

    re: .9

>>    .0 was written by someone who is vindictive, manipulative, and
>>    emotionally blackmailing her ex AND is very skilled at rationalizing 
>>    this behaviour.  
    
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...

    From my impression, .0 was venting some frustration because she
    has been dealing with this situation for quite some time and she
    needed a sounding board (this notes file).

    She did mention that he was in fact paying support and back support.  
    I can understand her frustration that here he is spending monies due
    to her on someone else instead of providing his son with something.  
    After all, she is a caring mother and maybe jealous ONLY of the fact 
    that her son is not reaping the benefits of newer clothing, toys, etc.
    
    Maybe .0 wasn't worded right (I'm not putting words in .0 mouth) but 
    I am looking at what she is TRYING to say, not HOW it was said.

    Now, my question to others:

     What is the ex trying to accomplish by bringing outsiders to his
     visitation time, short as it is?   In my opinion, he really isn't
     giving his son quality time for HIMSELF.  I see that he is bringing
     someone else over to distract himself and his son from the real
     purpose, CHILD VISITATION.  It seems that HE wants to stir something
     with his ex, to get her emotionally worked up, BECAUSE HE KNOW'S
     IT'S WORKING!
     

     
    re -1
    
    I am the girlfriend of a NCfather.  His ex does not want me to be
    around their child.  However, she has no right to prevent me from
    doing so.  I am a part of his life and he wants me to be a part
    of her life.  
    
    You can not dictate who your child's father has in his life.
    
    You can prevent this person from entering your house if you feel
    strongly about it.  But you can not prevent her from being a
    part of your ex's life.
    
    
    In a way I can understand your feelings on his not focusing all
    of his attention on his son when another person is around.  But
    as long as your son gets to see his dad, he will make the decision
    about him.  You have to allow your son to formulate his own ideas
    of his father, just as he is doing with you.  He may not be old
    enough to understand what an adult looking at the situation can,
    but he sees his dad and that is important to him.
    

****************************************************************************
			response by original author
****************************************************************************
re: .9-.11

I'm sorry that the three of you find it so easy to make snap judgments of a
person you know nothing about, except for my frustrations vented in .0

I specifically asked the readers of this file how they would have handled
this, but you chose to attack me personally instead.


My ex is not what I would call reliable when it comes to paying his child
support.  How do you think he built up an arrearage of almost $5,000?  No,
the court ordered his wages garnished because he wasn't paying his support.
In addition, he signed an agreement in November '89 to pay me an additional
$10/week toward that arrearage which he failed to send into the court in
time for the review hearing.  As a result, that $10/week has not become part
of the wage garnishment so he's not paying it.

Also, my ex is not all that conscientious about his visitation either.  I
would think that any parent who has a limited amount of visitation would want
to make the best of that time.  Most of the time, my ex doesn't utilize his
visitation time nor does he call to make other arrangements.  If I didn't
call him to ask whether or not he'd be coming, he probably wouldn't show up.

I am not greedy, nor am I being vindictive or manipulative.  I try to go out
of my way to ensure he has adequate time with our son.  I thought, being
non-custodial parents, you might understand why I find it hard to understand
my ex not wanting to spend this quality time with his son since there is so
little of it to begin with.

I don't use emotional blackmail, that's his game.  Despite how I sometimes
feel about my ex, my son loves his daddy and I do everything I can to help
my son build a good relationship with daddy.  Never have I told him anything
derogatory about his dad.


Re: other people in ex's life

Maybe I didn't word it correctly, or something, but I really don't care who
else he has in his life.  In fact, I've been encouraging him to get out and
date.  I think he needs to find someone else to spend time with.


As far as his spending his money where he wants and on who he wants, I guess
I can't expect you to understand this either, but...

Prior to and during our marriage, I paid for 9 drug treatment programs in the
course of 2 years to help him get off the alcohol/coke/heroin.  Now that he's
got a small amount of sobriety, it really hurts to hear him tell me about how 
broke he is after spending all his money on someone else *and their kids for
the weekend*  but never on his own son.

re: .12

Kenn,

  Thanks for understanding.

    After reading .9 and others like it, I'm almost speechless.
    Can't you people for just one minute imagine how it feels to
    be the base-noter?  You're all condemning her without offering
    any constructive criticism.  Do any of you actually know what
    it's like to deal with a drug addict (sober or not - it's the
    personality-type)?  My ex was heavily into drugs and that's
    why he's my ex.  Fortunately, we never had children together
    and there's a lot of years and physical distance between us
    now.  He's been off drugs for about 7 years now and we're both
    happily remarried, but it was horrendous dealing with him while
    he was using.  She's up against something that's very powerful...
    
    To the basenoter:
    
    You still have my support and I really believe that .9 et al are
    really a minority.  Keep the faith...  I hope things get better
    for you.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Communication via a terminal is a notoriously inadequate facility,
    especially for those not trained as professional communicators. 
    Therefore all of us are reading the words of the basenoter with our own
    pre-judgements based on life's experiences and modified only by the
    words the noter chooses to use in explaining her situation.  With that 
    in mind...
    
    The base noter based her initial complaint about the presence of the
    third party at the visitation on the alleged violence this party has
    been charged with.  Nothing's been proven, and we're only hearing one
    side (which is not to imply that the side we're hearing is inaccurate,
    but we--NONE OF US--can be positive beyond a reasonable doubt about its
    accuracy).
    
    Then we learned that behind her resentment of the third party lies some
    concern over the way her ex is using his/her/their money (I'll not get
    into the middle of what is more appropriately a court decision about
    how much the NC parent should be paying in child support and arrears). 
    Now I'm confused about what is really bothering the base noter, the
    third party's alleged crime or the use of money she apparently feels
    rightfully should be paid to her.
    
    Then she tells us that her reaction to these two, unrelated problems is
    to ask her ex not to bring a third party to his visitations with their
    son.  (On this issue I have no problem.  It's her home; she can deny
    entry to anyone she wants.  I can even understand, though not
    necessarily support, her desire to have her child and his father have
    quality time together, just the two of them, for the brief intervals
    available.)  But what does this action have to do with the money 
    situation, I ask myself.  Nothing, so far as I can see nor so far as 
    her subsequent replies have explained.
    
    So, I wonder, why has she connected the two situations in her mind and
    in her note?  Aha, my experience explains, she needs to justify her
    decision to deny access to the third party, a decision she MAY be
    making (yes, even subconsciously) more to punish her ex for not
    repaying the child support arrears quickly -- or for acting in such a 
    way that divorce was her option of choice -- than for any other reason.
    
    As I recall the situation, her ex _is_ making payments on the arrears,
    though not as quickly as he might; he has to have someone else provide 
    transportation when he comes to visit, therefore there HAS to be a third 
    party involved in some way; he's not left alone with his son (supervised 
    visits was one of the stipulations, as I recall), so his past drug abuse 
    doesn't really factor in UNLESS he starts using again; and his sporadic 
    approach to visitations, while reflecting badly on him, really has 
    nothing to do with denying access to the third party.
    
    Sorry, that's what I'm hearing, and it all doesn't add up to a whole
    lot of support from me to the base noter for her actions.  I admire her
    (genuine) concern for the welfare of her son.  But the situation, as it's 
    been described, just doesn't draw a supportive response from me.  I'm
    not condemning her, as the previous note suggests, but neither am I
    supporting her based on the information at hand. 
    
    There are just too many unanswered questions.
    
    Now, if she really wants to know what _I_ would do in the situation,
    
    1.  I'd allow access to any _reasonably acceptable_ individual the ex
    decides to hit up for a ride this week.  (Unless it's a taxi driver, it
    seems a bit extreme to expect this individual to sit outside in the car
    for two hours, unless the distances involved are such that two
    round-trips are reasonable.  If the distances are that short, maybe the 
    ex could buy a bike and provide his own transportation?
    
    2.  I'd pursue, through the courts, repayment of the arrears on a
    timely and reasonable schedule, and file for contempt of court
    immediately if the schedule is not met for anything less than loss of 
    job or lengthy hospitalization.  I wouldn't get involved in any way
    with how he used the balance of his money, as long as it wasn't to do
    drugs to the point they interfere with his relationship to his son.
    
    3.  I'd do my best to let by-gones (like paying for drug treatment) be
    by-gones, and chalk them up to the price I had to pay for marrying the
    fellow in the first place.  After all, they'll only poison my own
    outlook on life if I continue stewing over them, and make me unfit to
    fulfill my primary goal of
    
    4.  Trying to create a warm, supportive, loving home for my son, where
    even though he meets hardships in life, he'll learn that they can be
    overcome and don't have to weigh him down for evermore.
    
    And that's my take on it.
    
    Karen             

    I am sorry I seemed harsh in attacking you personally. (how does one 
    attack an anonymous person personally?)  You did in
    fact, ask us how we would react.  But, you also asked us (in several
    places) how we felt, and what we thought.
    
    I am able to draw from my own experiences...and they (to me) cause me
    to feel the way I do about your experiences.  NUTMEG::GODIN expresses
    my feelings exactly.  Nothing I read here makes me feel differently.
    
    How would I react?  I can't say for sure.  I *THINK* I'd 
    accept yours ex's limited visitation to the child on HIS terms.  They
    are his visits, not yours...why insist he work them according to YOUR
    rules or expectations.  Like many others have expressed, I have
    absolutely no quarrel about your not wanting the other woman (friend)
    in your house...but, I sorta/kinda find suspect your *reasons* for
    feeling that way.  But, that's not what you want to discuss here.
    
    So, I would let him visit, but, I'd not even encourage it.  I'd be
    supportive to the child ABOUT his dad, but, I'd never lie to him about
    him.  I'd also never bash him (not saying YOU DO).  I'd never find
    fauld with who the dad spends time with, how he gets to your house, or
    how he spends his money.  
    
    In other words, I'd do nearly everything you do, *differently* than you
    are doing it.  
    
    tony

    I feel that the "base noter" has set themself up to be frustrated by
    having expectations of how their ex should act.While it is alright to
    have feelings about a situation it is not alright to control another
    persons actions. .0 has every right to her feelings about this
    situation and no right to expect the ex to act as she would have him.
    Alcoholic addicts have a very tough row to hoe just living from day to
    day.I feel some compassion for .0's ex because alcoholism/addiction is
    a disease, not something this individual asked for or wanted but
    something he inherited from his forbears and may have been magnified by
    the conditions of his life. It is quite unfair for .0 to remain bitter
    for having sponsored her ex's recovery from alcoholism any more than had
    he been stricken with lung cancer. I think Ken's quotation of the
    serenity prayer is most appropriate here. I suspect that .0 needs to
    accept the things she cannot change, change the things she can and be
    wise enough to know the difference. The bottom line is to love your
    child in the best way you know how and not dictate how your ex is able
    to love his child. My God 2 hours everyother week, to see his son. To
    have layers of rules on top of this as where and how etc. His possible
    pain at seeing the woman he loved and whom has "divorced him", coupled
    with the excitment of seeing his kid, this would be tough for a person
    who has learned to kill their feeling with drugs to handle life. It's
    really excellent that all he needs is a friend to help handle this.
    .0 you need to forgive yourself for having become involved in this
    mess. People make mistakes. Possibly when you have forgiven yourself
    you may have the courage to forgive your ex. If you have been involved
    in a relationship with an alcoholic addict I would recommend that you
    seek out Alanon. It sounds like you are still struggling with some of
    the pieces of your former husbands addiction. They can help. Please
    know that addiction is a family disease and even if you were not the
    addict you can be tremendously affected as well. I suspect that there
    is still a great deal you need to communicate to your ex. Good luck!

    
    I also have to agree with #9-11 and 16.  Having had experience with
    a drug addict in the family I can relate, but after reading your
    frustrations and answers I get the feeling you want to hurt you
    ex.
    
    16 sums it up pretty good, especially seeking the legal system!
    
    Cal.
    

    
    Re: .0
    
    I "hear" your frustration and anger.  You have the right to
    decide who will and will not enter your home.  You have the
    right to your feelings, , but you are focusing where it will
    just become worse for you.  One thing which is consistent 
    throughout your note is your expectations of your ex.  How he
    should behave, what his priorities should be, where he should
    spend his money, etc.  Those expectations are the cause of your
    frustrations not your ex's behavior.  You have no control over
    him or what he thinks or deems important.  As long as you focus
    on those things you are setting yourself up for trouble.  He has
    the right to his life.  If that life brings him trouble and
    pain then that is HIS problem don't make it yours.  You can't
    protect your son from this either.  He has to find out for himself
    about his father.  If his father is a no-good so and so, then your
    boy will figure that out and feel the pain and disappointment.
    You can't protect him from that and actually do him more harm when
    you attempt to because it robs him of learning how to feel pain
    and grow beyond it.  We all have to learn that.
    
    Please understand that I am NOT judging anything here.  I am not
    either agreeing or disagreeing with you, but only trying to point
    out what you can and can't do about this situation.  Give yourself
    a break.  Set the limits you feel you must about who will be in
    your house, ensure that your ex lives up to his support
    responsibilities, and let go of the rest.  I'm sure it's quite a 
    heavy burden.
    
    Steve
    

    This note is so similar to my ex and I about 3 years ago.  i can't
    believe it.  i agree with everyone who replied.  You've given me
    some insight into the ex's feelings.  Divorce is never finished,
    or so for me.
    
    I've had and still do need to let bygones be bygones.  Presently,
    my ex and I are together after 5 years of divorce.  I'll admit,
    after going everything such as this basenoter, I still love this
    guy.
    
    Just as a comment:  Those 3 years ago, I had a great boyfreind too,
    but I would have dropped him in a minute if I knew what I know now.
    I wish my ex and I had talked to each other during those hostile
    years.  Everything would have been better.  Oh well!!
    
    What your going through is being intrepreted by your ex completely
    different than the way you think they are.  And your interpretation
    of what your ex is showing is probably completely different than
    what he thinks.  Try to call him from a phone.  Then again, I remember
    all to painfully the way things were back then too, I don't know
    if it would have been possible.  He and I are a bit different now.
     We're older, more experienced.  We've learned.  Who knows, maybe
    it's all in the timing.