Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

I feel that any parent who does not feel an obligation to support their
child (emotional, financial, etc...) is a real heel.  I just can't understand
that type of thinking, and it pains me to know the effects on the child.

HOWEVER, I can understand circumstances where the court may award an ungodly
amount of support for the child, or where unavoidable circumstances make it
difficult or impossible to pay any or all child support, etc.  And it is not
cheap or free to go back to court to get support modified (even temporarily),
so many parents may simply quit paying for some time.  There should be some
mechanism in place to modify child support when appropriate, at a reasonable
or even no cost.  Just my opinions, of course.  Withholding support because
of any other reason (i.e. visitation) is wrong, and hurts the child, and adds
fuel to the fire.

I have a friend whose ex did not pay her regularly for a few years.  If he had
extra money he would give her some, but not near what he was supposed to pay
($300/mo).  He knew she would provide for her daughter regardless.  Also, he
had frequent visitation with his daughter, and the little girl NEVER KNEW there
was any tension between them (admirable IMO).  My friend is a secretary and
has a house and car payment, and her daughter to support.  No lawyer would
handle her case for free.  She learned of a free service through the courts
whereby they will fight it for you, and pursued that.  She got a letter telling
her that while litigation was in progress, do not accept ANY money from the ex,
or they will have no case.  By the way, the backlog of cases was more than a
year.  My friend could not go a year without accepting money from him - some
was better than none.  So she takes what she can get from him.  Sad but true.

Kristen

    
    
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
    
    Well Kristen, you know my circumstances surrounding no support from
    my stepson's other parent.  And I think that she is doing it because
    she feels that when I married Jason's father that she could dump
    all her responsibilities on me, this is what she told Jason....
    
    I believe that all parents are responsible for their children, and
    that the responsibility should be based on a reasonable financial
    and emotional level.  But, then if we had that we wouldn't need
    this confernence would we???!!!!
    
    I think these walk away parents must have something wrong in their
    heads....  I guess at some level I think that I feel bad for the
    miserable lives they must lead *sigh*.....
    
    Just my 2 cents worth,
    
    Kim

    A very close friend of mine gets child support reluctantly from
    her ex.  He was court ordered to work (used to be a manager at Kmart
    but quit) because he found another women who would take care of
    him financially and refused to pay.  He's now an orderly at a hospital.
    
    I believe we all have to be responsible.  This guy absolutely cork
    screws me into the ceiling!  The only reason she gets paid is because
    the his wages are garnished.  He stole several thousand which the
    court has ordered to repay, but does only a few $$$/month to her.
    if that!
    
    Anyhow!  Maybe there are circumstances which child support shouldn't
    be paid as high as the court orders, but I can't think of any
    circumstance (ie. normal, everyday type things) in which an NC person
    should not pay.  They should have thought about that before going
    to bed...
    
    My point:  If an NC doesn't pay, it usually reflects in their
    relationship with their child(ren); a very bad one.
    
    
    			   John

    
    
    Note: In this note I will sometimes refer to the NCP as Daddy.
    This as we all know is not always the case!  Do not be offended!
    
    
    
    
    re -1
    
    
    "My point.  If the NCP does not pay child support it usually affects
    their relationship with their kids."
    
    
    Please elaborate!  I see absolutely No connection between the
    non payment of support and the state of the parent/child relationship.
    However, from my experience, the relationship that suffers through
    non payment of support is between the two parents.  Yet there
    is the possibility that the one unhappy custodial parent can
    influence the child due to this.  Example " Oh Daddy doesnt love
    you cause he does not pay support! He doesn't care!"
    
    Sure there are some scum out there who do not pay support and they
    should be punished.  But their children should not have to suffer
    by being denied that parent as is often the case.  Example 
    CP: Where's my money?
    NCP: I do not have it for you.
    CP: Then you don't get to see your kid.
    
    This only hurts the child and the parent not allowed to see the child.
    
    
    
    My boyfriend is currently unemployed.  He is actively searching for a
    job, but has had the support payments reduced due to his situation.
    However, his ex is constantly demanding the same amount of money or
    "You will not see your daughter"  It is bull!
    Due to economic situations he simply can not afford to pay the amount
    he had been paying when he was employed.  He gets unemployment and
    only $25 dollars of that is allowed to him by the state for his child.
    Now $25 is alot less than what he was originally ordered to pay, but
    at least it is something.  Yet his ex feels she has the right to
    deny him his child and their child her father because she is not getting
    the full amount.  Is there any reasoning in that?  NO! Just revenge!!
    
    
    Mi
    
    

    
    I feel no mercy for the few slime balls who can pay and simply won't
    be responsible enough to do it.  I say put their butts in jail until
    their attitude "adjusts."  If it doesn't adjust, then they stay there
    period.
    
    For some it's a case of the court ordering something that simply can't
    be done.  I hear horror stories about courts ordering payments that
    left a NCP with $50 a week or so to live on.  That is ridiculous.  If
    I were in that situation, I would just tell that judge that we needed
    either to talk a bit more or put me in jail now cause it isn't going to
    wash.
    
    Steve
    

    re.4
    
    My X has stopped paying court order payments which was lower than it
    normally would have been because I agreed that something was better
    than nothing.  But now he is not paying support or even taking any
    interest in our son so I feel that why should he get to see Andrew when
    he does not call or pay support to raise him.  My X's mother is the
    only one who sees my son and know I will not let him go over there. 
    Why should I give my time with my son to some one (his father) who
    never goes to see Andrew (at his mothers it was court order that be
    where the visitation s be).  When I am the one who raises him kisses
    his boo boo's better and is there when somthing is going on in his
    life.  I have to be the one to support and raise him by myself so why
    let his father see him.  I dont believe in letting NCP that dont pay
    FAIR support pyments having their cake and eating it to.  NOT FAIR TO
    CP
    
    
    Della

re .6

   I am in no way condoning the non payment of support, but you
have no right to deny your son his right to know his father and
grandmother.  If you've got a problem with the ex, then it is up
to you to take the necessary legal steps to correct that problem.
What you are doing is illegal in the state I live in.  Support and
visitation are two separate issues.  I would be curious to know
what you are telling your son in regards to why he can't see his
father or grandmother.

Gary

    Its attitudes like this, Della, that feed the fires that will consume
    you. By doing what your doing, you are and will feed you son some bad
    emotions that might cause him harm. Denial of seeing his dad can and
    will do that. If you two birds are fighting, still, vs being civil,
    its no wounder he isn't around. Your giving your ex good reasons not
    to work either. As in a butthead attitude line, "If I don't work, she
    doesn't get all my pay". VS, "Yea, the marriage didn't work, she is a
    good mother, and the child is better off". This the attitude. You
    are a Dec employee, and I can say that you problably have taken Face to
    Face and other people related courses. And you also know that if 
    you and your ex are not talking, than things are going do be a down
    hill game for all three of you. 
    
    I have custody of my daughter, I am not keen on who she is running
    with, but the child doesn't belong to either of us exclusively, the
    child is on loan to us from "God", and will belong to someone else in
    a couple of years. And IT is my duty to foster a good healthy
    relationship with her mom and family. Other wise, I am the cause of
    our problems, and it will be me to blame if my daughter has emotional
    problems.
    
    Think of it.

		Sorry, can't agree. If an NCP doesn't pay then the children
	suffer in lots of ways. They will know what's happening and will
	probably hear bull like "I love you kids but i won't give a damn
	dime to that $!jsj". Denial is a way to force the person who is not
	paying to take the issue(s) to court. Most CP's with no support
	haven't got ANY extra money for lawyers. If the NCP does't like 
	the terms then he/she should have them changed, not deny the children. 
		An NCP who does not pay has broken the agreement and is a 
	deadbeat--even if things are unfair-fight it but pay as you fight.
	I have joint physical custody but I pay large bucks. So I'm a
	financial NCP.....

    This is always a tough situation.  But, then I'd warn NCPs that are
    court ordered denied visitation, not to use the "if I can't see
    them, then I won't pay".  Because, it'll backfire.  "if you don't
    pay, you can't visit".  Is any of this fair?
    
    I hate the idea that a parent has to make the other meet his/her
    responsibilties.  What a shame.

    re .7 & 8
    
    Ditto.  Della, I didn't see or hear from my ex-husband for 12 years
    after my divorce.  I never received a dime of child support.  He came
    back into mine and my son's life when my son was 12.  My son decided he
    wanted to live with his father.  I had no right to say no.  A child has
    the right to know both of his parents, regardless of what the parents
    feelings are.  I don't care one bit for my ex-husband.  But that is
    irrelevant.  My son simply has the right to know his father.  I don't
    have the right to interfere with that relationship.  
    
    Karen

    re.11
    You're quite a strong and a smart mother.  I think you're doing
    the best in the long run.

   .6> I have to be the one to support and raise him by myself so why
   .6> let his father [...]  I dont believe in letting NCP that dont pay
   .6> FAIR support pyments having [...]

       It sounds to me like a case of "convenient weapon (of choice)".
       When the NCP gets mad at the CP, he thinks about with holding
       child support.  When the CP gets mad at the NCP she thinks about
       with holding contact with the child(ren).

       IMO they are totally separate issues and their use causes damage
       unrelated to the problem at hand.

       And as an added 2�, I insure that my son writes to and visits
       my ex's side of the family.  They are HIS aunts, uncles and
       cousins.  They have a right to see each other regardless of how I
       feel about my ex!  My son and his cousins will be together long
       after his mother and I are dead and gone!


	Richard

    Richard,
    
    
    Your $.02 is worth $2.00!! Esp that last parra! We forget who these
    kids really belong to. And its not either of the mom and/dad they are
    on loan to us.

    I agree with the rest, support and visitation are separate issues.  I
    do however believe that unsupervised visitations with an NCP who has
    drug and alcohol problems should not be allowed.  I am in custody of my
    8 year old daughter and I don't get a dime from my ex.  She calls every
    3 or 4 months and makes an appointment to visit with my daughter and
    then usually doesn't show up.  Of course, my daughter is devastated and
    there isn't a damn thing I can do about it.  If my ex was living a
    clean life I would not stop my daughter from seeing her anytime.  I
    don't believe in visitation rules.  Just because you get divorced from
    your spouse you shouldn't be divorced from your kids and you should not
    have to get permission from the NCP to have visitation.  This is just
    another thing that groups like DAD are trying to stop.  We CPs and NCPs
    don't want big law changes we only want the laws to be enforced fairly. 
    Women should not be getting custody 97% of the time.  There are a lot
    of fathers out there who are financially and emotionally capable and
    willing to take care of their children, like me.  I feel as though if
    the CP can't make due with support payments that are fair to the NCP
    and the NCP is capable of taking care of the children then the NCP
    should be the CP.  Then the new NCP can live a normal life. 
    Unfortunately, all this hoopla about being the CP or NCP usually
    relates to the "VISITATION RULES" which just shouldn't even exist.  Of
    course you have to fight over this with the old goat judges who control
    the "JUSTICE" system.  I don't know where the justice is but if I spend
    the rest of my life looking maybe I can find 1 case where there was
    justice.  Judges in probate court do not make fair judgments.  They
    make judgments which will best suit the continued support of the
    "SYSTEM".  Afterall, if they didn't make so many rules how could we
    support so many well-to-do lawyers(judges).