Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Beth...
    I hesitate to write to you about this because I feel a little
    overwhelmed with the sheer weight of the numbers you used....
    
    But, my thoughts are: 
    1. Your ex and you "agree" on an amount ($950)...seems like he has
    complied with this agreement, in spite of the quitting of his job.
    
    2. Your difficulties in commuting and your time away from the baby are
    YOUR problem...your choice, I should say.  That is a "red-wheel" issue
    as is your ex's reason for quitting.  In fact, whether he quits and the
    reasons *why* he quits and whether he loses all his income is not your 
    business...as long as he supports his child...and from your base note,
    he is still paying "from savings" (or whatever).
    
    The fact YOU are tired and may need to "find yourself" is no more
    concern of his than his is of you...  If YOU choose to change your
    lifestyle, that is YOUR business...no one else's.  
    
    Your ex is (in my opinion) obligated to support the CHILD.  NOT YOU!
    (unless you have alimony, and since your note talked only about child
    support, I guess alimony is not an issue).  
    
    How much does it COST to maintain your child?  Is it really
    $1850/month???  That seems a lot to me.  
    
    I fear that you are asking us to condone you trying to get him to
    support YOU as well as the child.  And I can't do that.
    
    sorry.
    
    tony

    Beth,

    I'd be on your side to an extent.  I believe that there is a
    relatively large gray area of support where by supporting the
    Custodial parent (if you wnat to call it supporting, and I don't)
    you are ensuring that the child(ren) has a reasonable standard of
    living.

    It appreas from what you say that you chose to accept less than the
    court ordered amount, but that was then.  If you have, in
    retrospect, decided that this is not enough without you having to
    put in a lot of effort maintaining a reasonable lifestyle, then I
    believe it's time to re-discuss the option with the NC father.

    After all, obviously you can both be reasonable (which is nice to
    see) and he is legally obliged to make the full payment.  I believe
    you both could agree on a new middle ground.

    BTW, $100K is a great salary.  To only give $12K a year away in
    support is relatively trivial.  If it were me, I'd like to think I
    would be paying more !!

    Bernard.

   Wow!  I pay much more than 950/month and I don't even make what Beth
   makes!  This, too, is by our own agreement.

   The best interests of the child are what need to be considered here.  A
   large contributing factor to the child's best interests are the physical
   and mental welfare of the parents.  Perhaps some kind of compromise can
   be found here.  The compromise might include a change in payments or
   maybe the father spending more time with the child, or many other things. 
   Things won't ever be fair, but maybe a better balance can be reached.


   							Terza

    re. .3
    
    I stated that the numbers are for "example only".
    
    You can use mom's salary as $25 K and dad's as $50 K if you like.
    
    Or mom's as $75 K and dad's as $150 K.
    
    Re. .1  "supporting the lifestyle of the NC parent" - you must admit
    that if I'm unable to keep up a 40 hr. workweek as in pre-baby, that
    this change in my status is directly related to the child.  Believe
    me, I have been jumping through hoops to manage this for 2 years now.
    It is NOT WORKING.  I am trying to change things before it gets into
    a crisis situation.
    
    Thanks for the ideas and I'm open to other comments.
    
    Beth

    Hmmmm.  Sounds like he is a reasonable ex?  Well, appeal to him then!
    
    Let him know where you are at.  He should share in more than just
    the fanancial aspect of things.  Is he near by?  Why shouldn't he
    share in the daily (ie. weekday) duties?  Especially if it just
    for a period of time (is it?)
    
    What about true joint custody?  Can he take her and care for her a few
    months during the year? (I hope your child is a girl.  I can't remember
    the base note) 
    
    As for your support, I agree with .1.  He shouldn't support you.
    If your willing to take a the risk for yourself, maybe something
    can be worked out that the child is taken care independent of whether
    or not your lifestyle changes due to a planned career change.  I
    mean, would you go to him for support if you didn't have any children
    from the marriage?
    
    Is there a notes file for custodial parents dealing with things like
    burn-out?  I know our 6 children gets to my ex, but she is re-married
    and has moved to the same town as her parents, so I have to believe she
    is better off than being alone. 
    
    
    			   John 

    re. .5
    
    Yes, he shares in some of her care - one eve a week at my place
    and every other weekend he takes her overnight to his place 4 miles
    away for 24 hours.  I've asked for more, maybe 2 eves a week and
    every weekend at least one eve, but he states that he "needs his
    time" to go to meetings and work on these projects and have some
    free weekend time.  He occasionally will do extra, like take her
    to the doctor, drop her off at daycare, etc.
    
    No, I wouldn't ask him for support other than for the child.  Then
    again, with no child I would be free to do whatever with my evenings
    and weekend time.  Now I have a little buddy, whom I adore, but having
    a baby and now 2 yr. old definitely changes your energy and activity 
    level.  
    
    Yes, I think he is reasonable and when I present this to him, will most
    likely be agreeable.  I won't be moving in with my mother, or to the
    same town (well, maybe)....and you are right, it sure is different
    parenting alone.
    
    Other ideas?
    
    Beth

    Hi Beth,
    
    I've been reading this note for a while and I have decided to give
    you some suggestions.  I am a single parent of a 4 year old girl,
    and until 2 months ago, I wasn't even getting child support.  My
    daughter's father does not see her much at all.  I want him to see
    her more and I would love it if he would take her overnight at least
    once per week, just to give me a little break so that I can get
    my heavy-duty housecleaning done that I can't do with her around.
    He has given me every excuse in the book for not seeing her, the
    last one was that his girlfriend felt that he was kissing my A**,
    so he decided to stop seeing his daughter.  This incident happened
    about 2 months ago, and he still hasn't seen, or even asked to see
    his daughter.  I have basically given up on him, and I am not pushing
    the issue anymore, I can't force him to see his own daughter.
    
    Anyway, sorry for rambling, I needed to find another solution. 
    I, too, needed a break for at least one night, or one day.  Luckily,
    my mother and sister help me out when I need someone to watch her
    if I have to work on a Saturday, or if I want to go out at night.
    But an even better suggestion would be to child-swap with a good
    friend.  When I need a break, I call up one of my friends and she
    will take my daughter for the day or afternoon.  Then when my friend
    needs a break, she knows that she can call me to take her daughter.
    We all need a mental break -- mothers and fathers alike.  
    
    It would be nice for your ex to just take your daughter for the
    weekend, but unfortunately you cannot force him.  Alot of men would
    love to have more time with their children, but there are a few
    who don't care at all.
    
    Well, I hope my suggestions help you . . . . Good Luck, I know how
    you feel . . . 
    
    Debby
    

    A quick note to let you know the "buddy" system works.  I have several
    friends who are single moms and we help each other out for an evening,
    afternoon, etc.  It is especially good when the other children are
    around your childs age.
    
    The only thing I can say about your child's father is that he needs
    to grow up.  When he does, he will be sorry that he missed these
    years with her because they cannot be replaced.  Then again, some
    never grow up.  Keep doing what you are doing and as she gets older
    with more outside activities, this will get easier.  Mine is 9 yrs
    old and not as independent as I would like but certainly much better
    than when she was 5-6.
    
    Susan
    

    Thanks for the ideas Debby and Susan.  Good to hear from other
    custodial moms who have experience with NC dads.  
    
    I don't really have a "buddy system" formally set up with another
    single mom, but do have some friends nearby who can watch my little
    girl if necessary for awhile on weekends.  One problem I seem to be
    having: leaving her in daycare for 45 hours a week (8-5 Mon-Fri) I
    feel that I don't see her enough.  Then the eves come and it's mostly
    maintenance, dinner and get ready for bed, and get in a little play
    and reading.  So I really don't want to leave her again eves mid-week
    too much.  Same goes for weekends, though Sat and Sun eves are better
    if I've spent the day with her.
    
    That's why I'm considering a change in lifestyle - at a minimum a 4-day
    workweek and at the other end of the spectrum, maybe something like
    packing it up and moving close to mom, or more likely my sister and
    bro-in-law.
    
    My problem as I see it is the amount of time available with my child
    AND available for me after the 55 hour work/commute time per week.
    Then I see this NC dad taking all the time he needs to "find himself"
    and I think "what am I nuts trying to do all this alone?"  
    
    Thanks for the ideas.
    
    Beth

    
    could it be that you really hate to see him have this time off to find
    himself and you have to work all these days. if he is making his
     payments like what was agreed on by you and him why do you need more.
    and from the price you get and from what you make come on give the guy
    a break.
      why do so many ex's hate to see the other do good or get ahead. as
    soon as they see this theywant more money anything to hold him back.
    let the guy alone and take what you agreed on it is really quite a sum
    and you should have np problem finding yourself if you need help
    ask around with that kind of money you should have no problem
    
      frank
    

Is this the appropriate place for discussing the pro's and con's of the bird-nest
approach to divorce (awarding custody of the house to the kids), as opposed to
traditional all or nothing custody? If not, please suggest the appropriate forum

   Re: Note 49.11 by ATSE::KATZ

   > Is this the appropriate place for discussing the pro's and con's of the
   > bird-nest approach to divorce (awarding custody of the house to the
   > kids), as opposed to traditional all or nothing custody? If not, please
   > suggest the appropriate forum

   It is, in my opinion.  If the moderator(s) agree, then I request that
   this topic be moved to its own note.


   							Terza

    re: .11
    
    Sorry, I don't understand those terms, "birds nest" and "awarding
    custody of the house? to the kids".
    
    re. .10  Hmmm...it sounds to me as though YOU are coming from some
    bitter situation that has not yet been resolved.  Well, I did begin
    the discussion by saying that NC dad had taken the 6 mos. off, but
    that was really incidental....my main issue is that I'm going for
    some kind of reduced work schedule after 2+ years of 2 fulltime jobs
    plus a commute.  Please remember that I am trying to do the best for
    my child and myself, as she will be dependant on me for the next 16
    years.  That includes giving her more of my time when I'm not so tired
    AND keeping her dad happy enough with the situation so that he can
    continue to be a loving parent to her in the time he sees her.
    
    Beth

What does it cost to support your daughter?  Consider child care, food,
clothing, miscellaneous expenses, a bit of savings for the future.  Does 
he contribute adequately for that?  (Maybe not only 50%, but he would
certainly not be expected to contribute 100% either)

If so then I can't see asking for more assistance - that would be for you.
If he is not contributing adequately for her support, perhaps you could
itemize the costs of supporting her and ask for an increase so that he
is contributing his share.

Just IMO,
Kristen

Before replying, I wanted to follow this conversation just to see which
direction it was going.  RE: .10 & .11, threw me for a loop so forgive
my ignorance in not understanding them. 

From looking over the note and it's replies, it seems to me that Beth 
is looking to find suggestions on two things:


1)  Should she continue asking for the full child support AND

2)  Should the father spend more time with the child so that mother
    can have some time to herself



In regards to the child support, I being the non-custodial father/parent
feel that I should pay my equal share of expenses for my children.  BUT,
I want to ensure that the support goes for what it is intended for, CHILD
support.  From seeing the clothes my daughters have worn, I can assure 
you that all of the support does not got to them.  

Sure my ex takes the girls to movies, malls, etc., but they also eat out
alot at the various fast foods.  They get a little lunch money during the
week but they use that at fast foods.  It's amazing how much they enjoy 
a home cooked meal at home vs. fast food but that's neither here nor there.

I don't know if my ex is putting away any money for the girls schooling
and some people would say it's none of my business which I would totally
disagree on because we should be able to work together on the girls
future.  However, I don't know where the all of my support is going and
neither do the girls.  They shouldn't even think about things like that.
They should only know they are loved and are being taken care of, physically
and financially.


In regards to the father spending more time with his daughter, HE'S A
HEEL IF HE DOESN'T.  Spending time with my children means the most to
me.  Sure in my previous divorce I didn't and that was to keep the fights
between me and my ex down to a minimum, only later to find out it hurt
the kids the most.  Non-custodial parents who do not spend time with their
children (when they are allowed to or not barred from them) should spend
as much time as they can with them.  This re-enforces the love the child
feels for the NCP and that the NCP does indeed love them in return.

Today in the USA Today, there was a little article about abductions and
it stated that 99% of child abductions involve family.  In the article
were some stats that said there are 127,000 children which are classified
as runaways, are in reality "thownaway children".  Seeing that just 
depresses me.  Children need both a mother figure and father figure in
their lives.  Even if mother and father can't live together doesn't mean
that the child should be deprived of the richness of having "parents".


Face it, mother has done a great job the last couple of years, but she too, 
needs a social life.  It's very hard on her.  She should be able to 
go away for a weekend and enjoy the sun and take some of the relief 
off her mind.  I wish my ex would have done it for me.  The offer was
there several times, but she wouldn't take me up on it.  

I'll finish for now, but as Fred has mentioned before and I will
re-emphasize, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD'S RIGHTS??



kenn

    Beth,
    
      I understand where your coming from.  I am a single parent of a 3
    year old girl.  I have had costody of Cori for 2 years now and I can
    relate.  I don't really have a social life to speak of and I too get
    burned out.  We need a break sometimes just like everybody else.  We
    are human and need time to ourselves or with other adults.
    
      I'm lucky in the sense that I do have some family around that will
    take Cori for the night or a weekend.  They love it and also know I
    need the break.  My ex gets Cori for a month at a time 3 times a year,
    until she starts school.  I miss Cori during that time but it's also
    great because I can do all those things that I don't do the other 9
    months of the year.
    
      I also have friends who have children Cori's age.  They offer to
    watch Cori for me and I watch their kids when they need it.  It works
    out fine and is alot cheaper than getting a babysitter.
    
      My suggestions are:
    
    1) schedule time every week for yourself, whether you do anything or
       not.
    
    2) see if your ex will get a little more involved and take the child
       at least one day a week and maybe one weekend per month.
    
    3) start a babysitting coop with friends, people at work, etc.(there
       are alot of single parents within digital(about 10%)).
    
      I don't know what your financial situation is but if you can get by
    without working 2 jobs I would highly recommend it.  Your child needs
    your time more than the money.  My pocketbook is real tight also.  I
    can do without things but Cori will always have what she needs and alot
    of what she wants.  What our kids need right now is us, our time, and
    our love.  You can't give what you don't have.  Maybe a reaccessment of
    your priorities is in order.
    
      Whatever you do good luck and remember, your not alone.
    
    Tom 

    re: .16
    
    Tom, Thanks for the supportive words.  I think you misunderstood some
    of my previous comments.  I don't work 2 fulltime OUTSIDE jobs, only
    FT here at DEC and being mom = more than 2 FT jobs.
    
    Also, I mentioned in replies .6 and .9, NC dad does take her one eve
    a week plus one overnight every other weekend.  He is receptive to 
    seeing her more, but due to this temporary unemployment "finding
    himself", can't seem to find the time just now.
    
    Regarding my getting out more, I don't even want (read: can't find the
    energy) to do this until I can cut down my work/commute hours.  This
    leads me back to the original note - WHEN I manage to do this
    legitimately at DEC, I will be asking my child's father for more child
    support.
    
    Do I need this? How much does it cost to support the child? My working
    FT now pays the mortgage and food and clothing and dipes.  His child
    support pays daycare and insurance.  At 80% salary (4-day workweek)
    either food or clothing gets cut from what I can pay.  Is this a reason
    to ask for more, assuming NC father gets his consulting work going?
    
    Thanks for letting me know I am not alone....I'm really lucky to have
    a supportive family and lots of friends and even a reasonble NC father
    of my child....why is that hard to remember when you are struggling to
    get a 2 yr. old dressed and fed and out the door by 7:30 every morning?
    
    8^)    Smiles to all,  Beth

    Signing in to sign out. My issue of getting either part-time and/or
    time off has been resolved.  I've been offered the "Financial
    Transition Package" and will be taking it and leaving DEC on June 15.
    
    Since I'll be leaving with almost a year's salary plus health insurance
    benefits, it looks like I won't be asking NC dad for more $
    immediately, but we'll see how things look a year from now! No, I
    expect to at least work part-time after taking the summer off, so that
    and daycare expense savings should make life a little more manageable
    for awhile.
    
    Thanks again for the insight, and happy parenting to all.
    
    Beth

    bye, Beth... nice noting with you.... here and elsewhere.
    
    
    best of all luck to you!
    
    tony

    
    	Take care of yourself, Beth.  Best of luck in the future.
    
    	Bob McQ.