Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    It is unlikely that the mother can get visitation suspended on
    this basis unless she has some 'expert' witnesses with some very
    good evidence.  Usually what happens in this case is the 
    non_custodial_parent will get discouraged and stop trying to
    see the child to avoid the hassle and 'for the sake of the child'.
    Whatever you do, don't stop trying.  Her main objective may well
    be to hassle you into stopping trying to see the child.
    
    Remember, the child has a right to see and know and have a relationship
    with the non_custodial_parent.  If your child-support obligations
    are being met, and you are living up to your end of the divorce
    agreement then she has nothing to scream about.
    
    Document--document--document.  Keep a log of time, place, and what
    happened at each of these meetings.  This log can be used in court 
    in many if not most states (check with your lawyer to be sure).  
    Also, you may consider having your lawyer send here a letter stating
    that if she can't be morecivil during the transitions then you will 
    take court actions asking for some sort of supervised transition.  If 
    that don't work, then go to court and ask for supervised transitions.  
    If you make the first move in court in this case, IMHO, the court 
    will look much more favorably at your situation. 
    
    Ask for contempt of court citation charging her with interference 
    with visitation.  Even if you win, the court will likely not do much
    to her the first time, but you'll serve notice that you will not put 
    up with any more b.s, and if you go back to court again for the same 
    thing the court will be harder on her next time.
    
    fred();

    When Jane's dad first moved to Canada and she did not see him as
    often, the "transitions" were as you described except that I let
    them say their good-byes and kisses as long as they wanted.  She
    would walk him out to the car, waive, etc. and cry, cry, cry.  I
    would hold her for a while and sypathize with her say I knew how
    she felt and that dad would call when he got to Canada.  Time is
    on your side.  I think things are better now because 1) she has
    grown up a little and knows she can call him whenever she wants
    and knows he will be back and 2) the more he comes and goes the
    more confident she is that he is not going away for ever.
    
    Before you try anything legal, John should understand that a tough
    transition is normal even under the best of circumstances and he
    should try to enlist his "ex" to do what is best for the child,
    namely, be friendly to each other and sympathize with the childs
    feelings and empathize with her.  Even if they can't stand each
    other, they need to realize that the child is suffering when being
    pulled from one to the other.  They need to put aside their personal
    feelings (just as we do in our jobs - maybe consider it a job with
    the paycheck being a happier child).  Any parent who can't do this
    for even a good solid 15 min. for the three of them to be together
    and let the child know that they BOTH care about her and her feelings
    isn't putting the childs best interest first.  Sheeeesh, people
    spend more time with their pets when they kennel them before vacation!
    
    It will get easier as she grows up and the more often they spend
    time together.  I know there were times when the separation was
    so hard on her that I thought the visiting wasn't worth it but I
    knew the time they were together was irreplaceable (such a word?).
    
    Keep at it, it will work out.
    

    
    re -1
    
    Sure it will get easier as she gets older, but at what expense?
    
    Her mother is just not willing to see "for the good of the child".
    Dad seems to be able to recognize what is best for the child.
    
    This child is being forced, due to her mother's ignorance, to
    have a really difficult time with this.  Instead of getting the
    comfort she was screaming for she got nothing.  
    
    John has tried to have folks on hand when this happens in the hope
    that her mother will not cause a scene.  But that doesnt seem
    to deter her either.  She is visibly angry when she drops her
    off and picks her up.  This has been the case since this all
    started.  Her actions have continued for over 3 years now and
    do not seem to be getting any better.  In fact, they seem to
    be getting worse.  John is just afraid what affect all of this
    bs is going to have on his daughter.
    
    

    This is a sad situation that I've seen discussed in various forms in
    other strings here.  Why don't parents who do this to their kids (i.e.,
    vent their anger toward an ex-spouse on the kids and make every effort
    to drive a wedge between the child and the other parent) recognize it
    for the child abuse it is?  Would the social system (schools, social
    agencies, courts) recognize it as child abuse?  Anyone want to take
    their ex to court in a test case?
    
    I truly feel sorry for the child in this scene!
    Karen                                          

   re -1 
         > Would the social system (schools, social
         > agencies, courts) recognize it as child abuse?  
    
    Aparetly not.  However, if it were the other way around--the
    child screaming and crying when she had to leave her mother,
    then the courts would likely suspend visitation.
    
    Again, I am not a lawyer, but in my experience, what you would need
    to take this into court would be 1)Documentation of multiple incidents
    2)Witnesses to multiple incidents, and 3)an 'expert' witness to
    testify that this specific thing is causing the child 'mental and
    emotional' damage.
    
    One other possibility is to have the father/child say their goodbyes
    before they get into the mother's presence.  Have the father explain
    that they have to say their goodbyes *now* and have him reassure the
    child as much as possible that he will be back.  Have as little
    contact as possible with the mother.
    
    fred();

    Would anyone in this triangle agree to counseling?  Separately,
    together, whatever?  If an impartial third party were to tell each
    parent the effects of his/her behavior on the child, would they
    listen?  It's worth a try.  And if suggested by John (either by
    him directly or thru an attorney) it would go along way in the future
    if court proceedings got underway.
    

    
    
    Well both mother and father were in counselling to try to work on
    a parenting relationship when their daughter was under 1 year.
    After that each parent was told by the court to seek counselling.
    Dad did, Mother did not.  
    
    The child was also taken to counselling on request of the father
    prior to her leaving the state.  Since both parents live in 
    two different states, a joint councelling thing would be difficult
    even if each side agreed to it.  Also, since the mother now
    live in another state, John has no way of ensuring that his
    daughter is in councelling other than word of mouth.
    
    Mothers mother has stepped forward to act as mediator if the
    need arises. However, she would not be a very good mediator
    as she is very biased towards her daughter and granddaughter.
    The one good thing in her coming forward with this is that
    she as a grandparent is watching the affect of her mother's
    ignorance on her granddaughter.  Obviously it is getting to
    the point (at least she must feel this way to want to help)
    where it is intolerable for the child.
    
    It really amazes me how a parent can act that way infront of
    their child.  She clearly knew she was not doing her daughter
    any good by not allowing her to be comforted by Dad.  But
    such are some people.  I just hope she changes before her
    daughter is old enough to realize what she is doing.
    
    Thanks for all your input
    
    Mi

   From my experience, it never gets any easier.  I've had so much trouble
   with my ex on this that we finally agreed to exchange our children at a
   school or a daycare center.  Only one parent is there, the parent picking
   the kids up.  Since I'm usually the parent picking them up, this has made
   things tremendously easier for me and for my children.

   I have my kids every other weekend.  On my weekends, I pick Mark up at
   the elementary school Friday afternoons and Julia at the daycare center. 
   I take them both to school Monday mornings.

   Before this arrangement, it was always such a hassle with my ex.  He'd be
   waiting for them with gifts in his hand, or he'd have long tearful
   farewells (they'd be ten minutes away at my house for only two days out
   14 for pete's sake!) or he'd have a long speech for me on my morals or
   he'd want to tell me every d*mn detail of his life since we'd last seen
   each other while the kids are clamoring for my attention or the kids were
   never ready (which gave him more time to talk) or he'd yell at me and
   tell me what a horrible person I was.  Fun times.

   I was so relieved when he agreed to these new arrangements.  I think the
   kids were, too.  They don't have to feel like they're choosing between
   two parents, which they aren't, they're just coming to spend time with
   the "other" parent.  And they don't have to be witness to any "scenes"
   between the two of us because we do those elsewhere.

   Transitions are always hard.  Every "exchange" reminds them of what they
   can't have and they didn't choose.  As divorced parents, we should try to
   make these times as simple and supportive as possible.  If it can't be
   done between the two parents, then perhaps a neutral third party (in my
   case, a school) for exchange would be better.

   Sometimes I still have to pick up my kids at his house.  I park in front
   of his house and honk my horn.  They usually come running out and jump in
   the car.  We agreed that he won't come out to the car.  If he comes to
   pick them up at my house, I won't come out to his car and he won't come
   to my house.  (The context for this agreement is that he assaulted me in
   December 1989 in my house in front of our kids while we were arguing over
   them.  We have agreed to no physical contact between us [this is only our
   fifth year of divorce!] and to meet in public places while the kids are in
   school.)  My ex and I are in counseling to try to work out "children"
   issues which are really "divorce" issues in disguise.


   							Terza