Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Hi,
    
    I have joint custody. In reality it means to me that I can seen
    Chris and Vicki when and where(usually my ex in-laws) my ex decides, 
    at a moments notice and my new wife cannot be present.
                        
    Dave

    I was divorced in Sept. 88 in Texas.  I now live in MA.
    
    I quote from my divorce decree:
    
    "It is decreed that (my name) and (ex's name) are appointed Joint
    Managing Conservators of the children under the age of 18.  Principal
    residence and possession of the children shall be in the home of (ex's
    name).
    
    It is decreed that the Joint Managing Conservators shall equally have
    all the rights, privileges, duties, and powers of a parent.  In the
    event of a conflict between the parties as to such matters, however,
    the decision of (ex's name) shall govern."
    
    
    Seems to me that as long as (ex's name) approves (not likely) I get to
    be a father.  Otherwise, I am just the provider of $200 +/- per week. 
    I'll give it a test in two weeks...
    
    tony

    I don't have the wording at hand, but my decree grants us "joint
    custody with the (father) having physical custody and the (mother)
    having liberal visitation privileges."
    
    At the time I asked my attorney what my rights/responsibilities were as
    a "joint custodian," and she mumbled something about I'd be included in
    any important decisions regarding the welfare of the children.
    
    Now my ex and I haven't had many major upheavals over visitation (we
    live within 25 miles of each other), so that isn't an issue.  I do get 
    to see the report cards regularly and promptly; I am informed prior to 
    any out-of-state vacations; I definitely get my share of the college 
    tuition bill presented VERY promptly.
    
    What I haven't gotten is informed until 24 hours later when my son was
    hospitalized for emergency surgery; consulted on decisions about what
    college my daughter would attend; or informed until a week later when 
    she came home from college to see her local doctor due to a two-day-old 
    sharp pain in her lower right abdomen. (It isn't appendicitis;
    diagnostic work is still underway.); or consulted about whether or not
    the kids should be REQUIRED to attend Sunday school and church every
    Sunday.
    
    I see a discrepancy here, but don't have enough information about where
    I stand legally to do anything about it at this time.
    
    Karen
    

    I also have joint custody, but it seems to me that when I divorced
    my wife I "divorced" my children as well.
    
    Dave

    As the custodial parent of a 9 yr. old daugher, joint custody means
    that I have physical custody but any decisions beyond what she takes
    for lunch that day (only joking) are made jointly.  Since he is
    in Canada he relies on my to choose the orthodontist but there is
    a discussion between the dentist, me and my ex about what work she
    needs, etc.  I send him copies of her report cards and ENCOURAGE
    him to call the school with any questions.  The school knows he
    has free access to her and her records.  When she decided to go
    to ballet we all talked about it, agreed to split the bill in half
    (she goes for classical training - mucho denero) and when he is
    in town he goes for observation.
    
    I contemplated a private school last year and gave him the brochure
    and all the literature and we jointly decided against it.
    
    I would want my 50% say if she lived with him.  Besides, sometimes
    he has a better idea or a better way of handling a situation.  He
    is much more patient than I am and my daughter knows it.
    
    Believe me, I do get the "I'm going to move to Daddys" when she
    doesn't get her way and I encourage her to call him and see if I
    am being fair.  99% of the time he would handle the situation the
    same way.  But he can get her to clean her room in Canada and I
    can't here in NJ.  Hey dads, what's the secret?
    

   I have joint custody with my ex.  We have joint legal custody while he
   has physical custody and I have visiting rights.  We live in the same
   city, so I have access to my kids.  They come to my house every other
   weekend, plus whenever he goes out of town.  We call each other and
   arrange our schedule as necessary so that our kids are always with one
   parent or another and rarely with a babysitter.  (This doesn't include
   daycare.)

   Joint custody is hard.  Period.  I have never gotten along with my ex. 
   He is narcissistic.  Whatever does not correspond with his view of the
   world simply doesn't exist.  I'm working very hard to grow as a person
   and not allow him to bulldoze me.  On the other hand, I've had to make a
   lot of compromises I would not have done otherwise.  He is the one person
   in the world I would love to tell where he can go and what he can do when
   he gets there, but I haven't.  Instead of I've focused on trying to do
   what's right for our kids.  At least, that's what I'm trying to do.

   As far as practical considerations go, we've not had much trouble. 
   Things like schools, who is picking up the kids, paying for
   extracurricular activities, medical bills, etc.  we do work things out. 
   As far as emotional considerations go, it's been one long and hellish
   nightmare.  He'd like to think he owns me (and everybody knows that your
   possessions don't just get up and walk away like I did) and continually
   uses the kids or tries to use them to manipulate me.  He has never
   refused visitation and I doubt that he ever will.  On the other hand, he
   has come to my house and pushed me around.  (I filed third degree assault
   charges on him -- it's still in progress.)

   In spite of everything, my kids still love their father.  I believe they
   should have full access to him.  I would much rather have them live with
   me and visit him, but I made this decision hoping they would be used less
   as pawns.  I still hurt whenever I think about it.

   Could I take him to court and demand a full-scale custody evaluation? 
   You bet I could.  I've started to many times.  When I see the results on
   my kids and the garbage he feeds them whenever I do, I discontinue.  I
   do not have the money or the inclination to spend all my energy and time
   battling in the courts.  I doubt the court will make the *right*
   decision.  Any decision that doesn't fit his point of view he would
   contest and the war would go on and on.  My kids suffer from the warring.
   Besides, it keeps my ex and I together psychologically, which is what he
   wants. 

   I dislike my ex intensely.  I believe he is psychologically abusive to my
   kids and does not take of them properly.  Yes, he feeds them and clothes
   them, and takes them to school, but he sees them as extensions of
   himself.  They are his emotional support system at a time when they need
   support.  But these are not issues the court could even begin to
   understand, let alone address.


   							Terza

   P.S.-Last but not least, I pay him child support.  I believe I pay a
        grossly unfair amount, but that's for another topic.

Joint custody goes beyond just the legal decisions.  It's been mentioned in 
passing in previous replies, but there are actually two pieces to custody: legal
custody and physical custody.

Joint legal custody is fairly common nowadays; the intention is that both 
parents will continue to have a say in the major decisions in the child's life.
The reality, as previous replies have discussed, may vary depending on the the 
situation. :-)

Joint physical custody is less typical; it's also known as "shared custody".  In
this case, the child lives with each parent in turn.  There is some debate as
to its effect on the child (it's not simple for the parents either!)  However it
does allow the child to continue a close (physical) relationship with both 
parents.  

It's common to have joint legal custody without joint physical custody; I don't 
think I've ever heard of joint physical custody but sole legal custody!
		Helen

    .7 > Joint physical custody is less typical; it's also known as "shared
    .7 > custody".  In this case, the child lives with each parent in turn. 
    .7 > There is some debate as to its effect on the child (it's not simple for
    .7 > the parents either!)  However it does allow the child to continue a
    .7 > close (physical) relationship with both  parents.  
    
    I believe that is all correct.  However, the main reason there is
    uncertainty about the effects of joint physical custody is because it
    hasn't been studied.  There has only been one serious long term study
    of the effects of divorce (Judith Wallerstein's), and it didn't include
    joint custody.  It is estimated that only 3% of separated parents
    currently maintain shared physical custody long term.  However, the
    consensus of informed guesses seems to be that if the separated parents
    are not locked in emotional warfare, then shared custody is probably
    beneficial to children.
    
    				- Bruce

    One thing that you might want to check out before asking for joint
    *legal* custody is that it may leave you legally responsible for
    anything the child does.  (ie. if a teanager vandalizes something).
    There is a growing trend in society to hold the parents financially
    responsible for the child's actions.  Joint custody, both legal and 
    physical, is a relatively new trend in divorce, so this is one quesion
    that you should ask your lawyer before seeking "joint" custody.
    
    May sound like a cop-out, but I would not want to be held legally
    responsible for what a teanager did when I didn't have any real
    control over the teanager.
    
    fred();

    I shared joint physical custody of my son from the ages of 7 to
    13.  It is rare, it required a lot of 'give' from both sides, and
    I'm convinced that we (the three of us immediately involved) won't
    know the results for many years, if ever.
    
    It's a topic I love to discuss :-), feel free to ask specific questions
    about how our case worked if you want.
    
    alison

When my husband insisted on joint custody, knowing that his children would
live 150 miles away, I thought it was crazy.  "If you two can't agree on
anything in the world, what benefit would joint custody give you?  You will
constantly be back in court!"  WRONG!

On one occasion we went to visit his son at school.  We asked to see his records.
and they wanted verification that we had custody before they would show us his
records (the ex had not completed any of the spaces about father's information,
she had put N/A).  A few times we have gone to pick up the kids from school
early (with the ex's knowledge) and have been asked about custody.  If he did
not have joint custody, the ex would have had to send a note "allowing" him
to pick them up!

He can consent to medical treatment (I think even non-custodial can do that,
but it is in the decree), and WRITE OUT A CONSENT FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO TREAT
THE CHILD, which he could not do as NCP.

I can definitely see the benefits of joint custody, even if you do not have
joint possession (what a word).

    	I have joint *legal* custody of my daughter and my ex has
    Physical Custody.  My ex now lives in Conn. and I still reside
    in N.H. but she is talking about getting engaged this week and
    will probably relocate upon her wedding to California.  Doe's
    the fact that I have joint custody of my child give me any
    rights to prevent my ex from taking my daughter away from me?
    Can I insist that she have her intended relocate here instead
    or relinquish physical custody to me?  Thanks in advance for
    any advice.
    						_Jerry

    Joint custody means that if she says that she wants to go to cal she
    calls you and says, "Dear, I am going to cal.".. End of story... You
    can get visitations during the summer, over long holidays as spring 
    break, and etc. but you might have to pay for the plane ticket.
    
    Question? Did your ex live in this state? And locate to Conn? Or did
    you relocate to N.H.?? If she moves beyond reasonable commute, you can
    ask for a reduction in child suport based upon when she *IS* in Cal.
    And if she refuses to negioates (sp) visitation, you can also zap
    her in the shorts with a suite called 'Alienation of Affection', good
    for $100k!! :-) That is a way to keep her from going! 

    re: -1,
    		Thanks, that's about the extent of what I
    thought my rights might be.  We were divorced in N.H.
    last August.  She relocated to Conn. right when the
    divorce was final (was already dating her new intended).
    I didn't contest the divorce because she led me to believe
    that she would settle in N.H. or Conn (with her mom).  Her
    lawyer ammended the simple decree to reduce my weekly payments
    to cover the cost of visiting my daughter in Conn.  Now I
    wonder if this was also a ploy to insure that there wouldn't
    be any strings if she skipped to Calif. with my daughter.
    Can't begin to tell you how *used* I feel, but I've already
    been thru a difficult divorce so I was hoping that this one
    could be kept out of the courts and we could make the important
    decisions about our child ourselves.  I had no idea she would
    do something like this but now I feel like I'm screwed for being
    Mr. Nice Guy and not fighting the divorce in the first place.
    Bottom line is that I don't have the finances or the energy to
    bring this back into court unless I was sure that they would 
    actually do something for me.  Thanks.
    						_Jerry

    Almost one year ago, my soon to be ex and I signed a formal agreement
    for joint legal and physical custody of our two children.  It was a
    long and difficult struggle, one I hope will have been worth it.
    
    My daughter, 10, and son, 8, spend 2 week alternating periods with both
    parents.  Major holidays are divided up as well.  My feeling is that
    both parents should be involved, in weekday activities, (school,
    extra-curricula, etc) as well as weekends.  We have clauses which address 
    
    moving out of the area, maintaining current daycare and school enrollment.  
    
    This is far better than the war that was escalating when he said the
    kids should live with him and visit me weekends.  Actually, I had
    proposed joint legal & physical custody earlier, and though he dug his
    heels in against it, after mediation/counseling, depositions, etc. he
    agreed.  Perhaps more out of self-preservation, still I believe it
    **can** offer a workable arrangement for children and parents.  WORK is
    the active word.
    
    As a SW Consultant dealing with customers, or writing goal sheets, etc,
    we have a popular expression - this is a living document....  So it is
    with the needs of children.  No agreement made in year oone can
    anticipate the needs of the children 100% over time.  Even good parents
    can probably only hope to get it to 99.999% :-}  This arrangement may
    change, but I am committed to work at it to the best of my ability, for
    as long as it is useful/right for the kids.
    
    I am very interested in any input, questions/ideas from others.  I
    think we can learn from each others' experiences.
    
    Regards,
    
    Pat

		Joint legal custody is the most expenisve way to deal with
	children in a divorce but for me anyway it is the best way. It 
	many cases it is just not possible because the two parents have to
	be able to deal constructively and cpably with each other because
	the amount of communication required is high. My  second lawyer on
	the cdivorce started out by asking, if you can communicate as well
	as you are why the hell are you getting a divorce! (Because she 
	wanted it.) I don't think it's possible to get there without help,
	i.e. both parties going to consuling for quite a while.
		It has worked out well so far and it's certainly the best
	option for me other than me having the kids full time. The kids
	don't like whats happened to their lives but given the options 
	(my ex was unable/unwilling to try and work things out) this is what
	they want. Over time it may change. The constant moving is a real pain,
	and my chldrens and my opinion is it's the best of bad alterantives 
	in a divorce situation. 
		Good luck with the joint physical custody I hope it works well
	for you.