Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    	re: .-1
    
    	Well, Kenn, funny you should bring that up.  I have had to file
    contempt charges against my ex- for preventing me from seeing the
    children, even though the original separation order stated that
    I get them each and every weekend.  Utilizing the contempt scenario,
    I filed charges and pulled her into court.  Here in MA, however,
    a branch of the Court known as 'Family Services' negotiates with
    the parties to try and solve things behind the scenes.  They negotiated
    this case with the ex- and me, and offered to continue the case
    for three months, and asked me to drop the charges at that point
    as long as I got to see the children.  I had no problem with this,
    and agreed.
    
    	The very next day, my ex- went into the Suprior Court in Boston,
    whining and moaning and told the Head Magistrate that she feared
    for the well being of the children, that I was unstable, and should
    not be allowed to see the children, and would he PLEASE modify the
    separation agreement.  All this while I was no where around, mind
    you.  Well, the Magistrate said OK, and my visitation rights have
    been suspended until a full investigation can be conducted.
    
    	So, in my case, although I utilized the law in the manner in
    which it is supposed to protect MY rights, my ex-, being the mother,
    can go in anny time she wants and change the rules.  Figure that
    one out.   This is still pending, by the way, haven't heard word
    one from the Court since.
    
    	McQ_the_Frustrated
    

    re *.1
    
    Your reply would be just as strong, yet not as inflammatory, if you had
    left out "being the mother."
    
    I'm not suggesting that men and women are treated equally in family
    courts.  I am suggesting that setting up "us vs. them" battlelines
    along gender lines is only adding fuel to the fire rather than working
    toward a fair and equitable solution.
    
    May I request we all try to see things JUSTLY rather than male vs.
    female, mother vs. father?
    
    Karen
    

    RE: .-1
    
    	The statement I made "...being the mother..." was simply to
    emphasize the fact that, at least here in Massachusetts, the mothers
    usually get what they want by default, rather than the other way
    around, and generally are granted full physical custody of minor
    children by default, unless other arrangements are made between
    the two divorcing parties.  It was not meant to be an inflammatory
    remark, but simply a remark towards what seems to be the norm here.
    
    	Also, from what I've seen during my times in court, the women
    generally fare better in the divorce proceedings than do the men
    with respect to other things as well, so I believe there is in fact
    a bit of discrimintation based on sex.  This is not written into
    the law, by the way, it just seems that most judges I've seen rule
    for the women where there are questionable circumstances.  I realize
    that there are cases that do not happen this way, and I know several
    men who are custodial fathers, mostly because the mothers did not
    want the responsibility after the divorce.  I just wish I had a
    situation like that!  8^)
    
    	McQ
    

    Karen,
    Although I somewhat agree with what you are saying, I must say this....
    
    Whe discussing the "gender wars" within any other notesfile, to see
    entries such as "men do this", "I hate it when males do that" etal...
    it is by default that the speaker doesnnt mean ALL MALES, just some of
    them.  Every once in a while once creeps in that truely means ALL
    Males, but for the most part, the default is SOME.
    
    Why can this not be the default here?  You, yourself admit that the
    gender bias  within the court system is in fact against males (ie.
    Fathers, Bio or other), why must these males, that HAVE FACTS to show
    of this fact, flag their entries when looking for a place to vent, or
    share, or god forbid, GROW?
    
    As for the "us vs them" concept... isnt that what it really boils down
    to anyhow?
    
    I mean, a woman writes, "Males have been opressing us for a zillion
    years with no change in this fact", then a male writes, "that is not
    true, change takes time etal (you've heard it all before so why bore
    you), and them he gets slammed for making his point heard.
    
    My opinion, for what it worth is that these males (and yes even some
    women here) should be able to vent their frustration with the system 
    and their ex's if thed like without having to qualify or flagg their
    entries to keep from "hurting someones fealing" or for the sake of
    sounding nonsexist".  This is NOT sexist, IT IS FACT.
    
    Al (happy, married, yet with an indirrect involvement with these men.)
    
    

    re. last two - My purpose in calling the inflammatory phrase to the
    attention of the writer was not because I, as a woman, was "hurt" by
    it.  My purpose was to plead with everyone, male AND female, for
    fairness, less flame and more light.  Also, though not knowing the 
    individual involved, I'd doubt that anyone except a professional actor 
    could have that bitter an attitude and not show it in appearances before 
    a judge who has to rule which parent is more mature and responsible and 
    capable of rearing minor children.  Believe it or not, I was trying to 
    be helpful.
    
    And, Al, no, my note DID NOT SAY I AGREE that women get the edge in a
    divorce decree.  I said men and women are not treated equally.  There's
    a vast - and intentional - difference!  My own personal experience and 
    knowledge is too limited to take sides on this one, and I'd imagine yours 
    is, too, unless you're a divorce lawyer, a probate judge, or a serious 
    student (and that implies open-minded research) of the divorce courts of 
    your country.
    
                                    -=-=-=-=-
    
    Now, before I get in too deep without the time to properly defend my
    position, may I ask the moderators if this file is intended solely for
    non-custodial fathers and their friends? (I know, corporate policy
    forbids you to exclude me; but if I'm not welcome, I'd really prefer
    knowing that now rather than later.)  When registering as a member
    of the file, I had not read any of the strings.  I am a non-custodial
    parent and have some issues around that.  Therefore, I considered
    myself part of the target audience.  After reading the entries in the
    file to date I discern that mine is definitely a minority viewpoint. 
    In my own mind that doesn't make it a WRONG viewpoint, and you might be
    surprised at how much we really do have in common.  But I don't have
    the time or the energy to spend fighting battles among ourselves.  If
    my opinion is not appreciated, I'll take it elsewhere.  I'm not being
    defensive and I'm not hurt - yet.  I'd just prefer to spend my time
    where it's mutually beneficial.
    
    May I have a decision?  You're welcome to contact me off-line if you
    prefer.
    
    Karen

    DAMN.  Once again I have written what I did not mean.. or did I mean it
    and not convey it properly....
    
    Anyhow, Karen, I, of course, cannot make judgement on you.  I dont fit
    "the bill" here at all.  I am a happily married man.  
    
    I am sorry that I came off wrong.  Please, do not "leave" because of my
    poor conversation skills.  You "view" (as you put it) is always
    welcome, in my opinion.  Ken, and others, again I am sorry.
    
    As for my knowledge of sorts, I am a licensed Private Investigator in
    the state of New Hapshire.  I have witnessed quite a few situations
    that these people (mainly men, I am sorry to say) have been referencing
    to.  So, I feel that I have some valid if not "experience" (of sorts)
    in this arena.
    
    so, or whats its worth my apologies Karen and others.
    
    Al
    

	As moderator, I have laid down the ground rules in 1.*.  This 
	conference is open to the public and as I mentioned, everyone's
	point of views are encouraged.

	I did state that this conference could be very sensitive as the
	majority of participates will want to vent their frustrations
	with the INEQUALITY justice that is served in today's judicial
	systems.  It is quite apparent, that there are alot of males who
	have fallen prey to the court system.  There also women who have
	been wronged by the courts also.  I know of a particular situation
	that is currently going on here in Colorado Springs where the
	father has quite a bit of financial backing and is raking his
	wife over the coals and trying to ruin her mentally, emotionally,
	and financially.

	I have been working with her for about 1 1/2 years and due to her
	husbands wealth, it appears that he has "bought" the laws to
	his advantage.

	I asked that this notes conference be fair and from what I have
	seen, I don't believe that it's one sided.  We have a 2nd wife
	who has participated, a non-custodial Aunt, several non-custodial
	fathers and a couple of non-custodial mothers.  It is the 
	INEQUALITY of the sytem that we wish to share among ourselves
	and I believe it is working.  If anyone feels that it's not
	or if they have concerns about the direction this conference is 
	going, then please send mail by doing a SEND/MODERATOR.  All
	comments & concerns will be dealt with on a one-to-one basis.

	When making comments or telling of a situation, try and read what
	the author is trying to say and NOT how it was said.  After all,
	we are all adults with flame throwers, so let's try and keep
	the flame down as much as possible.


	Sincerely,


	Kenn (with two n's)

    
    Karen, I certainly do not want you to think that your opinions are
    not valued here, and I certainly do not want you to feel hurt by
    my initial reply to this topic.
    
    	As the East Coast co-moderator, I echo what Kenn stated in the
    prior reply. This conference is open to any one who has an interest
    in these discussions.  However, I also agree that it has been clearly
    stated that some discussions may get heated and controversial. 
    'Tis the nature of the beast.
    
    	As a final disclaimer, I naturally do not intend to lump all
    women into one mold with respects to this subject.  I'm simply relating
    my personal experiences as I see them, and absolutely no offense
    intended.  Any responses and further discussion are valued highly,
    at least by me.
    
    	That said, let's continue with the subject at hand.
    
    	McQ
    

    I hate discrimination of any kind, positive and negative(whatever
    that means). 
    IMHO, anyone can present their opinions here.
    
    Karen, keep it coming.
    
    Dave

   First of all, what is contempt of court?  What are its actions and what
   are its intended results?  Without even knowing the answers to these
   questions, it seems pretty clear to me that the action(s) have little or
   nothing to do with the intended results and probably have the opposite
   effect.

   Secondly, I have very little faith in courts.  I mentioned this in my
   introduction.  The justice system, whatever its intents may be, is just
   not capable of dealing with family matters.  What we've managed to do is
   to corral a system designed to deal with criminal and civil cases into
   making black and white judgements in situations that are fraught with
   complexity and subtleties.  The justice system is built on the basis of
   either you're guilty or you're not.  (Note that innocence does not ever
   play a part here.)  Add to this the emotionally charged situation caused
   by divorce and custody issues and what do you have?  All out war, with
   the lawyers winning big bucks and the children torn to pieces.   And the
   parents are pawns of their emotions, their spouses, their children and
   their lawyers.

   And the children, who are already torn apart by a situation they didn't
   ask for, never have a chance to recover and grow as long as their parents
   are battling over them in their anger and pain over their failed
   marriages. 

   So, I guess my answer is that I don't find contempt of court a very
   useful tool/weapon.


   							Terza

    	This note was moved from 36.0 ---  McQ	
    
    
      <<< CSC32::DISK$DOCROOT:[NOTES_CSCCS]NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS.NOTE;1 >>>
              -< Welcome to the Non-Custodial Parents Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 36.0               Contempt/Violation of Visitaion?              No replies
GIAMEM::MACKINNON "ProChoice is a form of democracy" 23 lines  26-MAR-1990 12:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    Contempt of court!   Does it work?
    
    My boyfriend's lawyer has filed papers today against his ex for
    violation of visitation.  She always comes up with another
    convenient excuse for not bringing the child her dad's house.
    She is court mandated to bring her to Boston on alternating
    weekends.  They currently live in New York and he does not have
    a car to go pick her up when she pulls this act.
    
    He was supposed to have his daughter for a week in February
    also, but the ex could not decide on a week until the month
    was finally over.  They have tentatively agreed on the 
    week of April first to make up for the week in Feb.
    
    My question is how effective is contempt with respect to
    violation of visitation?  Will she merely get a tap on 
    the wrist and be told to stop fooling around?  Or will 
    it have any affect on his situation at all?  Has anyone
    used this sucessfully to gain access to their children?
    
    Michele

    re .11
    
    I have successfully used contempt of court to enforce visitation.
    See note 22.  However, my case was pretty blatent.  I drove
    from Colorado to St. Paul Mn. only to have the door slammed in
    my face.  She messed up real bad in court too--tried to tell
    the judge that she thought the court orders were "wrong".
    
    You may have to be your own attorney.  Most attorney's will try to 
    talk you out of it.  The first time will likely be a slap on the
    rist, but it will serve notice that you're not kidding about
    being able to see your children.
    
    fred();

    Speaking from my brother's experience as opposed to my own, contempt of
    court for abuse of visitation rights will be upheld EVENTUALLY.  But
    you must be persistent, keep good records, and keep your own act clean. 
    Don't expect victory on the first try.
    
    Karen

                                         
    
    Well it seems to at least put a scare into her.  She called last night
    to make arrangements to bring the kid up to dad's house this weekend.
    She even agreed to pick her up at a half way point instead of 
    requiring that he return her to her house in NY.  
    
    Nothing of the contempt was ever mentioned.  She called when
    he was out so the machine got the call. She sounded really scrared.
    Then after he got of the phone he made a comment that again she
    sounded really scared.  Maybe this is knocking some sense into
    her head.  Now we just wait and see if the child really
    will be here this weekend for the entire week.  I hate this
    wait and see game.  It's so annoying.

    
    Just a clarification Forteich only limited the amount of time a
    parent can be imprisoned for CRIMINAL contempt of court.  It has
    to do with Due Process.  Most of the examples you've been discussing
    are "civil" contempt and not effected by the ruling.  Basically,
    for someone to be in "criminal" contempt they have to stand in front
    of the judge and refuse to do what the court orders.  (This is a
    very loose definition but it's been awhile since I looked at a text
    book.  If anyone wants the formal definition, let me know and I'll
    dig it up.)  
    
    The frustration I've felt as an attorney is the number of times
    people are allowed to be in civil contempt of court in domestic
    cases before the court takes any real action or puts the offender
    in the position of either complying or being in criminal contempt.
    A second frustration has been clients who refuse to allow me to
    pursue the criminal contempt route when it is appropriate.

    
    Contempt of court:
    
    An act or omission tending to obstruct or interfere with the orderly
    administration of justice, or to impair the dignity of the court or
    respect for its authority.
    
    There are two kinds, direct and constructive.  Direct contempt openly
    and in the presence of the court, resists the power of the court.
    Consequential, or constructive contempt, results from matters outside
    the court, such as failure to comply with orders.
    
    Another classification differentiates between civil and criminal
    contempt.  Civil contempt consists of failure to do something which
    is ordered by the court for the benefit of another party to the
    proceedings, sometimes called relief to litigants, while criminal
    contempt is an act in disrespect of the courts or its process which
    obstructs the administration of justice.
    
    The penalty for civil contempt is usually payment of a fine, or
    imprisonment for an indefinite period of time until the party in
    contempt agrees to perform his legal obligation, unless the 
    imprisonment clearly fails to act as coercion and acts merely to
    punish.*  The penalty for criminal contempt is a fine or imprisonment
    for a specific period of time, intended as a punishment which must
    be tried by a jury if postconviction contempt proceedings impose
    sentences exceeding an aggregate of six months.
    
    *  I believe this is the argument the lawyers used to help push
    the court into suspending the contempt order.
    

    Then can someone define what a contempt stipulation is used for?
    
    Can the person be brought up on Criminal Contempt for violations
    of the terms of the agreement?
     

    re -1
    
    A contempt citation says in effect "We think that you MAY be in
    contemp, and you SHALL appear in court to answer to these charges".
    
    I believe that violations of the terms of agreement would fall under
    Civil Contempt.  Once the judge puts his ok on the agreement, then
    it is viewed as comming from the court.
    
    fred();

    The following is an entry asking for help.  The original author wished
to remain anonymous.


Bob McQ, co-moderator

==============================================================================


	Any input or information anyone is willing to bring to this note
	would be greatly appreciated, especially those in the Great State
	of Massacusetts.

	Let me establish a foundation.  In October of last year, I filed a
	Contempt of Court charge against my ex-wife.  The court date for
	the hearing was set up for December.  This was cancelled due to the
	judge's illness and rescheduled for March.  The reason for filing the
	contempt was violations of visitation rights.  Three days before the
	court date, my ex's lawyer and my lawyer worked out an agreement called
	a "Contempt Stipulation", this allowed for a more "liberal" visitation
	schedule.  Two weeks after this was signed and recorded by the courts
	this agreement was violated by my ex.  My lawyer notified the judge and
	this contempt stipulation was rolled into a contempt charge.  I have 
        not seen any of the paperwork, and am not sure if I will receive a copy.
	Since April this stipulation worked to some degree, as the children were
	allowed to visit "out of cycle", but were never given full freedom to
	visit when they requested.
	
	As part of this contempt stipulation or agreement, my children are 
	permitted to go to Florida for the month of July.  On June 25, 1990
	I received a call from my kids telleing me they were leaving the 
	following morning for Florida.  I was scheduled to have them for a 
	visitation weekend on June 29 - July 1, 1990, as agreed to in the 
	schedule.  I informed my ex-wife on June 15, 1990 that it was my 
	intention to have them for this weekend, and requested she comply.
	I also received a phone call on June 23, 1990 from my ex's father
	who asked if it was possible to leave early, due to what sounded
	like a BS routine, which later I found out it was.  I informed my
	ex's father that I have gone to great expense in time and money just
	to get this visitation schedule in place, and I requested that they 
	uphold their end of the agreement.  Obviously my wishes were not met
	and they took my children to Florida without my permission or consent.
	And the answer is yes, I do have joint custody for what it's worth.

	If I file another contempt of court charge, what will happen based on
	the first one?  From what I have seen I can't seem to get anything
	resolved within the State of Massachusetts. Is there any other
	functions other than the probate courts to address these problems?

	I will fill in additional information but this is my immediate
	concern.	 

    I'd file a second contempt charge.  It will add evidence to the fact
    that she is violating the agreements.
    
    fred();