Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    	Holy Christ, Kenn.  That's incredible!  I know the feeling,
    though.  My ex- continually refuses to speak to me, even on the
    phone, so I have a helluva time trying to find out info about my
    kids.  It's blasted unfair, all right.
    
    	Do you have joint legal custody, even though the ex- has physical?
    I know some states make a distinction.  I would think that you'd
    be able to take her back to court, and get a judge to force her
    to notify you in cases like that.
    
    	Good luck, and hang in there!
    
    	McQ
    

We both have joint legal custody, but in Illinois it's a farce.

She has pulled some other major stunts in which she was in direct
violation of the court decree but to try and get her in contempt of
court, HA! 

I tried to push the issue once before but it cost me approx. $600
in lawyer fees and I still lost because the judge (who was female)
could not bring herself to find my ex in contempt and my lawyer
(who was male) said I wouldn't have a prayer against this particular 
judge when we found out who was presiding.

I will say that, I have had 3 male lawyers over the last 9 years
and they couldn't do squat except take my money, but once I hired
a female lawyer, my ex knew I wasn't going to mess around.  My
new lawyer is fantastic and believe it or not, she has even 
re-imbursed me some of her fees when she didn't win!!  I'm keeping
this one around on a retainer fee.

Kenn

    
    Kenn:
    
    	Glad to hear you're having somewhat better luck.
    
    	Mine didn't improve until:
    
    	a) 	I fired my lawyers
    
    	b)	I went to the library and memorized the laws
    
    	c)	I started going in WITHOUT a lawyer.  For some reason,
    		the judges like that.
    
    	I take the ex- in any time I can think of a reason.  And, I've
    been winning lately.  Figure that one out.  I guess this particular
    (male) judge likes awarding to the man anytime he can.  I've got
    my work cut out for me, but at least it looks hopeful.
    
    	McQ
    

  Well, here I sit, pondering the days activities that have occurred,
mentally exhausted.

The hospital did bend the rules and allowed me to talk with my daughter 
for a couple of minutes today just to let her know I love her and that I 
am here for her.  She was relieved to hear my voice and it's was definitely
a relief to hear hers.

This is going to be short, but the saga will continue.  I did talk with
my daughter later this evening twice, and there were alot of things that
are bothering her.  Unfortunately, the calls can only last for 10 minutes
at a time.  During those few moments (I even thing I got a couple of extra 
minutes) she did alot of "dumping".  I will continue this later, but I need 
a hiatus for a day or so to let everything sink in. 

I'll still be participating in the conference, so watch out, Uncle Kenn is 
looking over your shoulders! 



Kenn (with 2 n's)

  McQ,

    Yup!!  You did the right thing by representing yourself "pro se".  I
joined a national organization 2 years ago and they have been fabulous.

An article they had once in their newspaper, plus talking with other 
members, stated that it's a fact that going in front of the court "pro se", 
the court feels that you are genuine and sincere in protecting your rights 
and ensuring equality.  They ALWAYS have to put up with lawyers, but 
when you represent yourself, they want to see how much homework you have
done.

Unfortunately, since I live out of state, it would be very expensive
for me to represent myself.  In Illinois, if you are going to represent
yourself, you obviously have to file any and all papers yourself in
Illinois.  I could do that once, but then when the other attorney responds
to your protest, you have to go back and file your answer.

I know what it's like to visit the law library.  It tickles my fancy when 
I'm in the library and some wants to help me find a journal.  When they
ask if they can help and I ask about certain cases where individuals 
represented themselves "pro se" in civil matters, they point me in the wrong 
direction as if I said a bad word.

Makes others in the place look at it you and wonder....



Kenn

    The best suggestion I have right now is to let your daughter know
    that she can call YOU at any time, day or night.  Give her all possible
    phone numbers where she can reach you.  Explain that the problems
    between her mother and you have NOTHING to do with your love and
    concern for her.  There should be no reason why the hosital would
    not allow her to call her father.  Get an answering machine if you
    don't have one.
    
    I will  N E V E R  understand why a parent (either one) keeps these
    things from the other.  I tell my ex even when my daughter has a
    cold or fever and the good things too like brings home an A on a
    vocabulary test.  
    
    Good luck and a letter to the hospital and/or doctor explaining
    the divorce situation may help communications.
    
    

    Kenn,
    
    That's so *sad*...yet so typical of my own situation. All
    I can say is **hang in there!**. Your daughter needs to know
    that you love her and will be there for her. Let her know
    that no matter what is said and done by her mother, YOU
    ARE THERE NOW AND ALWAYS WILL BE. She's going to need to
    hear it from you a lot, to balance out what she's being
    told (or NOT told) from the mother. 
    
    I know what you mean about taking a hiatus....sometimes just reading
    in this file brings back hurt and angry feelings....
    
    *hugs* to you and your daughter!
    
    pat :-)

  Thanks everyone for your concerns.  It really is appreciated and felt.
I'm back on the air now, alot more relieved after finding more about my
daughters problem but still upset.

Since my last note, I have done quite a bit of investigating and many 
phone calls.

I have talked with my daughter, her primary counselor, and her docter.  Turns
out that my daughter hides her feelings until they build up, then she takes
it out on the nearest person/people.  Unfortunately she has gotten that from
me.  I used to be the same way until about 4 years ago.  She HATES to be told
to do something.  She would rather be asked than told.  I'm sure we all feel
the same way.  

Her mother is a verbal abuser.  She always has to be cutting me down, my 
daughters friends down, etc.  She can not talk in an ordinary voice.  She
is a demanding person who has lost all of friends.  In fact, before our
divorce, she was the same way towards me.  I lost alot of good friends because
she would come home from school and see that I had company.  She then would
just start harping about anything she could think of.  It would go on and
on until company left.  Then she would start in on me, asking questions on
why they were there, what did we do, etc.  

Instead of her sitting down and discussing things, she would fly off the
handle just to hear herself yelling.  Both of my daughters by that marriage
cringe when they hear someone yelling.  It has really gotten to them
mentally.

What made my ex make the decision of putting my daughter into the hospital
was that my she started yelling at my daughter about her boyfriend and my
daughter had enough.  My ex has kept threatning to put my daughter in a 
hospital so my daughter took her up on it.  She pretty much said, "If your
going to do, then do it."  She then turned around and was walking off and
my ex grabbed her by her hair, (she has waist length hair) and started 
pulling her back.

Now my ex is 4'11" and my daughter is about 5'4".  My daughter is big boned
and out weighs my ex about 20 lbs.  My ex then started slapping her and she
busted my daughter's lip on her braces and that was it.  My daugther had
enough and she pushed my ex down and got on top of her and started to 
let her have it.  After it was all over, my daughter told her that she
wanted to go to the hospital because she couldn't live in the house with
her any more so my ex accommodated her and took her to the hospital. 

After talking with the medical staff, they said that my daughter definitely
needs counseling.  They said that she has to learn to open up more and
let her feelings be known.  She is having problems coping with me living
so far away.  They said that when she visits our family here, she see's
alot of love.  Then when she returns home, she doesn't see it with her
mother.  They say it confuses her and that she wants to come back here,
but then she doesn't want her mother to go through life alone so she tries
to put up with it.

I have talked with my daughter several times since I found out she was in
the hospital.  Unfortunately I can only talk 10 minutes at a time, hang
up and wait 10 minutes, then call back.  She has alot to on her mind that
she needs to clear.  I asked her and the medical staff if I came back for
a week or so, if it would help and they said that it may but I would only 
get to see her on the weekend and it would only be for a total of 3 hours 
so I would have very little time with her.

Apparently they are talking about her release date soon, but they said that
she will have to continue counseling on an outpatient basis which I expected
but what really disturbs me is that my ex didn't call me and tell me that
she was having problems and was considering putting her in the hospital.
I asked her why she didn't call and she said that she didn't want me to
come back and cause trouble in court.  I asked her why she finally did
call me and said, "After all, you ARE her father...".

I guess I'll never really understand that kind of logic from my ex.  Maybe
that's why she is my ex...

Anyway, father and daughter are doing the best that can be expected.  Thanks
again for all of your thoughts and prayers.  It really did help!!


Kenn


BTW, 
  My attorney was contacted so that this could be documented for future
reference.

    Kenn,
    
    You have my utmost sympathy!  For about 18 months after my separation,
    my ex used my son as a weapon to get her own way, by denying me access
    to him.  When I complained, she said things like "well, you shouldn't
    have left, then!", or "it's all your fault for abandoning us!".  As
    you can probably tell, one of the reasons I left her was that she was
    ALWAYS RIGHT! (Even when she was wrong.)
    
    Like you, I had a lot of difficulty socialising because my ex would
    always find fault with any acquaintances I happened to bring home. 
    Work-related functions were a real pain, as she would talk loudly about
    how computers were putting people out of work and were de-humanisisng
    society and she didn't know how anyone could in any conscience work for
    a computer company.  (She seemed to overlook the fact that the creature
    comforts she was accustomed to were paid for by my wages from working
    in that very despised industry! - and she was always at me to get a
    raise!)  Sorry, I'm raving again - your plight touched some raw nerves
    in me.
    
    To cut a long and sordid story short, I sought some counselling for
    myself (as I firmly believe that there is some fault on each side in
    any separation), and I have learned to face up to her.  The last few
    years have been relatively uneventful, in relation to my son.
    
    The major problem I now have is that my son was told at an early age
    that my current wife 'stole' me away from my ex, and he now has a lot
    of coldness toward her.  We are trying to overcome this, but it is
    difficult.  For example, my ex has no concept of a good diet - she feeds
    my son on coke and fries and sweets.  In my home, we tend to eat a more
    healthy diet, but my son often baulks at this with comments like "well,
    in MY home, I'm allowed to eat such-and-such".  If we try to
    re-educate him, he reports this back to his mother (my ex) who rings me
    in a rage with comments like "how dare you try to impose your values on
    my son?"  If I try to point out that she is imposing hers, her reply is
    "he lives with me - he's MY son - I will bring him up how I want!"
    
    I could go on and on - but you've heard it all before - correction,
    you've EXPERIENCED it all before!  Just be assured there are a lot of
    people out here who understand your anguish, and you have our total
    support!  Keep talking to your daughter, and above all, keep assuring
    her of your love.  It is the parent who is CONSISTENT who wins out in
    these situations!
    
    Regards, Robin.

Robin,

  Thanks for the concern and support!  It definitely sounds like you have
had your share of *RAW* experiences and I hope your situation improves
dramatically in the near future.

It is unfortunate in today's society that the majority of custodial parents 
try and keep children from realizing that the "other" parent is no good
for them.  Unfortunately sometimes these children find out too late that 
the "other" parent just wanted to share love and life with them.  

I want to welcome you from the land down under and we look forward to your 
participation in this conference.  It will an experience for us all since
this problem is obviously not related to the U.S. only.  

As I mentioned earlier, I hope your situation improves.  Hopefully your 
ex will wake up and realize that you have something very valuable to add
to your son's life - love and happiness!!


Kenn

    As I have said before, I am on both sides of this conference.  What
    I would like to say to single custodial moms who build barriers
    to their ex:
    
      YOU THOUGHT ENOUGH AND LOVED ENOUGH TO MARRY THIS MAN
      YOU THOUGHT ENOUGH AND LOVED ENOUGH TO HAVE HIS CHILDREN
     
    Unless he is an axe murderer, child abuser or drug dealer, etc.
    he can and will have a positive influence in their lives.  We, as
    mothers (and it comes with the territory) tend to be control freaks.
    We need to trust our childs instincts and raise them to trust their
    own.  I firmly believe that everyone is born with goodness inside
    and we only need to tap into it to use it.  If Dad is a poor example,
    irresponsible, etc. the child will know this without constantly
    being told by Mom.  Moms... trust your children to know what is
    good for them and what isn't.  Trust that the example you set for
    them will tap into their goodness and override any negatives, both
    from Moms and Dads.  
    
    Boy, can I get preachy!
    
    To Kenn:  The hospital seems to speaking out of both sides of its
    mouth.  They say your daughter needs to open up more but they limit
    you to only 10 minutes.  Can you get this rule waived for a
    predetermined period of time (2 weeks) until some significant
    improvement is seen?
    

  I'm am working with the hospital regarding the amount of time I can
spend with my daughter.  They have stated that it is very rare that a parent
who lives out of state is taking so much interest in their child's problem.
They said usually that a parent who doesn't live in the state usually doesn't 
get involved due to the cost of the phone calls, travel, etc.  

They also said that even though I have joint legal custody, my ex is a legal 
resident of the State of Illinois so they have to abide by my ex's orders.  
They are mandated by many laws governing parental rights who are legal 
residents.  Basically it boils down to the fact that, if my ex doesn't want 
me to talk with my daughter, then I can't.  Obviously, it could turn into
a legal matter which could be quite expensive for all parties concerned.

(Catch 22 - Even though I have joint legal custody, I am not a resident
of Illinois, therefore if I need to enforce my court order, I have to go
to court to have them recognize their own order!  Make sense? Daah?!

Needless to say, I had to reaffirm my committment to my daughters' well being
regardless of the cost.  I'm not wealthy by all means, but I can live with
my debts.  I can't live with the fact that my daughter would have to live
with a confused mind.  The world is already in that state, why add another
confused person?


Kenn

    In our divorce agreement, we have joint custody until one of us
    moves out of a 50 mile radius of the marital home, then the person
    who moves relinquishes custody.  Well after two years, my ex moved
    to Canada and technically relinquished custody.  However, I will
    never hold his feet to the fire.  He could move to Outer Mongolia
    but he will still be her father and have the rights he would have
    had if he still lived nearby.  This 50 miles stuff was at the
    suggestion of my attorney and since I knew I would never apply it
    it made it into the final decree.  I don't know what the laws in
    New Jersey say about the custodial parent having control, but this
    sounds like an area that could use some federal legislation so that
    joint custody means just that "joint" and that it crosses all state
    lines.
    
    Take heart:  Your daughter will know (if she doesn't already) that
    you are a very special Dad.
    

    Kenn,
    
    One thing you may want to ask about is the issue of physical child
    abuse.  Striking a minor in that manner is considered a serious
    issue in most states.  In at least some states, e.g. Massachusetts,
    hospitals are required to report apparent incidences of physical
    abuse.  (Mental abuse is a more difficult issue.)  This may have
    some bearing.  A court would likely take a serious view of this.
    
    Also, many courts are now giving strong consideration to the wishes
    of the child as to who they live with.
    
    Hang in there and good luck.  I can identify and empethise with
    the verbal abuse issue.
    
      Mark
    

    Kenn, just a suggestion on talking to your daughter on the phone ...
    
    Might it make sense to get a "Call Me" phone credit card, and give her
    the number?
    
    AT&T offers them. With one, anyone can call from anwwhere in the world,
    but *only* to your phone.
    
    I got one and gave it to the kids just in case they have some form of
    trouble, need to call, and hane no change.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    					Charlie.

    
    
    	Charlie you just solved one of my bigest problems. I have never
    	heard of the "call me card" and was afraid that if I gave the
    	kids my regular telephone credit card that my ex would get ahold
    	of it and run my bill up. But this is such a great idea I wish
    	they had advertized it more. Now maybe I will know whats going
    	on in between visits.
    
    	 Thanks again,
    
    	    Jim K.
    

    Wounder if you could get a restricted card that only allows your
    daughter to call you and you only and perhaps that there is her SS
    number as a code that she could use to hamper the use of the X to be
    abusive with it.
    
    
    George

    Yes, you can.  My sister got a charge card for her daughter who
    is college in New York but the only number she can call is HOME!!!
    
    Talk to your Telephone Co.

            When I saw this note I thought, GREAT.  I called ATT and
       asked about the "call me card" {from MA, 800 225-5288}.  I wanted
       it (1) restricted to just my son's use and (2) to allow him to
       call me at home or at work. 

       They said;
         - they would put my son's name on the card, but they couldn't
           (read wouldn't) verify that he was the one using it.
         - I could only get it for my home telephone, not for work.
         - There is no charge for the card itself.
         - It takes about 4 weeks to get it.

       I ordered it a few weeks ago, so he hasn't got it yet.  I figure
       I'll try it out and see what happens.


       Richard

    it works...
    
    i got several of them... and gave one to all my kids
    
    
    tony

    1) Call me cards, the greatest thing since sliced bread and flush
    toilets.  I wish I given them to my daughters a long time ago.
    
    2) I am puzzled at any parent who uses their own children as weapons,
    yet my daughters mother has and continues to try to.  The long range
    result appears to be that my daughters trust me, respect me and love
    me.  They fear and distrust their mother always.  What will probably
    happen is that that woman will become a bitter lonely sad old lady (and
    even I do not wish that upon her).
    
    3) Notification of significant events?  Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah!
       Mel had an emergency appendectomy 3 years ago, I found out when her
       sister informed me during my weeklky scheduled call.  Let me have
       the phone number at the hospital, I had to threaten to sue just to
    get the name of the hopital.   This has been true of grades, other
    injuries, and any significant event.  If I do not get it from the
    girls, forget it.  I even have to send a stamped self-addressed
    envelope to school in order to see the grades.
    
    4) I almost cannot read this notes-file sometimes, I get so angry. 
    Right now I am sitting here midway between rage and tears.  Nope, 
    the tears just won.  ('twould be nice if I had some support at home
    sometimes).  (darn good thing I touch type, 'cause I can't see the
    screen)

    All I can say to you is "hang in there"  My ex is the same way.  My
    daughter broke her wrist and I found out about it when I got the bill.
    As far as school goes, they don't cooperate at all.  When I asked for 
    a duplicate report card they told me that they send one home with the 
    child and that was that.
    
    I have been through all kinds a bull with my ex and watched her use and
    twist the kids.  I found that all you can do is to be there for them
    and to let you know that you love them.  The rest will have to take
    care of it self.  There is only so much you can do, and controling the
    ex isn't one of them.
    
    As you have probably read, a lot of us have been there.  At least in
    this notes file you can communicate with people who can tell you that
    your ok and your not crazy, nor are you alone.
    
    Bob