Conference quark::mennotes

    
    I agree also!   Fred come back! 
    
    Men have to stick together!   Fred does contribute a lot.
    Sometimes the strings get off course and carry on too much but 
    that happens!  The important point is that we help each other.
    
                                    Bill

I agree. Something very interesting happened when I placed my 
note requesting opinions on baseball coaching programs. I got one 
reply and a ton of mail. Seems no one wants to reply in this file 
and would prefer to do it through mail. Who can blame them?

Fred,

Your experiences and advice prove invaluable to many 'lurkers' out
here when you're in advice mode.  When you and <everyone knows who>
get into a battle over any/everything, I begin to wonder why a moderator
doesn't suggest it get taken offline.  Of course every one has the right
to disagree with anyone else on anything.  Don't be put off by
<everyone knows who>'s style of disagreeing.  The art of disagreeing without
being disagreeable was obviously not part of any of this person's many many 
(oh how many times do we have to hear about it?) degree efforts!  Please 
continue to contribute.

Thanks.  

    Mennotes creates a hostile work environment for women by perpetually
    portraying women in general as selfish, lazy, inadequate, inferior 
    and bad parents.  Almost nothing else is ever discussed here.

    Such an environment in a place of employment is supposed to be illegal.

    It's the equivalent of a file called "WHITENOTES" which would ask 
    whites to band together against African Americans (who would be 
    portrayed in the same manner specified above.) This would be illegal, 
    too.

    Women are human beings with rights in this country and in this
    corporation.  Please respect those rights.

    Surely men in this corporation have something to discuss other than
    banding together to perpetuate negative stereotypes of a protected
    minority in this company.

    
    By the way, it isn't a solution for women to stop reading this file.

    The discriminatory remarks against women are published to a wide
    audience at our place of employment.  Such activities are supposed 
    to be illegal.

    
    If it matters at all, my main purpose in coming to this file was/is
    to help understand my son's transition to manhood.  I raised him on
    my own, and I wanted to understand his experience so I could help.

    I came to this file years ago to ask how men shave, so I could explain
    it to him when the time came.  Many men explained it to me, and I passed
    this information along to him (it was helpful.)

    My son does not intend to band with anyone against women, though,
    thank goodness.  

    The other information was helpful to us both.  surely there's more to
    the story, however.

The moderators' attempts to stop the name-calling and "ARE NOT!!! ARE TOO!!!"
bickering have been unsuccessful except for write-locking, which I don't
think is an appropriate solution.  Unfortunately, as is often the case in
the world, a handful of ill-behaved noters are ruining the conference for
everyone else.

I reject Suzanne's suggestion that this conference "creates a hostile work
environment for women".  The very notion is ridiculous - at least this
conference does not practice gender-based apartheit.

I would be delighted for more men (and women) to have open discussions here
on "issues pertaining to men" that didn't degenerate into pi**ing contests.
But the personal animosity shown by a handful of participants seems to
prevent that from occurring.  Suggestions for how to deal with this would
be welcome.

					Steve

    
    Steve, if/when a hostile work environment is identified, it's not
    an issue that is up for 'rejection' by those who are conducting
    this environment.
    
    It tends not to be just another philosophical point.
    

Hello,

	I have asked the moderator to delete my note (268.0).
	Fred is correct it is time to depart.  Mennotes has
	become hostile to me. 
		

	Is there a basket weaving notes file I can ask, some general
	questions about prostate cancer.  :-)    Notice the smiley face...
	Best wishes to everyone!  I do mean everyone. Bye.

	Armando

    I think it does become a philisophical point, however, when one
    considers who is responsible for deciding if a forum is hostile
    to a particular group.  There are other women who note here who
    don't find it hostile to women.  So, betwixt the two, who decides
    that it is hostile?
    
    I don't see men banding together against women here.  I have seen
    what I consider men calling upon each other to stand united in 
    cases of divorce/custody issues.  Many of these men have personal
    anecdotes wherein  their personal experiences and experiences of
    friends and relatives the father has been 'vicitimized', if you will,
    by the courts in many cases and by those women involved in others.
    I see frustration and resentment that this is allowed to happen, but
    I do not see a call to arms against *women* in general.  I do sometimes
    see pleas for women who view things this way (the forum as being
    hostile to women ) to understand that there
    are women who have done 'bad' things, just as there are men who have
    done 'bad' things in divorce/custody issues, but I haven't seen a
    willingness to concede this without it becoming a complete gender issue
    and IMO, the hostility isn't inherent in the file or in the quest to
    start some kind of men's movement, but is rather generated by
    participants who aren't so much as talking/debating each other as they
    are trying to always be right.

    
    Christine, a hostile work environment is not identified by vote
    (such that ALL people of a particular group must agree that it is
    hostile in order for the point to stick, IF it is formally made.)

    It's a matter of looking at the way the particular group is portrayed,
    not whether or not all individuals are bothered by it.

    We have laws against portraying minorities as inferior, inadequate,
    deficient in character, etc., at places of employment.  Even if only
    one individual member of the group speaks up about it, our laws are
    pretty clear on this subject.

One person being offended does not make something generally offensive.

Take responsibility for your own feelings.

If I applied your logic, WOMENNOTES would have been shut down years ago.


				Steve

    
    The evidence of discriminatory remarks about women in general run
    rampant in this file.
    
    These comments (about women in general) go against Digital's corporate
    policies on the treatment of minorities.
    
    If only one member of a given group is offended, it's enough.
    

    Oy.  I never suggested a vote.  I did say who determines it's hostile?
    I'm sure if the corporation agreed, this notesfile would be closed.
    I'm saying that it's your opinion that the file is hostile, but your
    opinion does not make it fact.  Now, with your note about 'if it is
    formally made', are you suggesting that the corporation would shut
    this file down if a formal complaint is made?  I don't happen to 
    believe or see that women, as a group, are portrayed in a manner that
    suggests the hostility towards women, as a group, that you are talking
    about.  It's not simply that I'm not bothered by it.  I don't believe
    it exits.  And yes, that's my opinion, just as it's your opinion that
    it does exist.

    
    The discriminatory comments about women do exist here.  They run
    rampant, and they are contrary to Digital's corporate policy.
    
    

>    If only one member of a given group is offended, it's enough.
    
    Based on this logic, anyone with an axe to grind can claim anything
    is offensive to them (whether it is or not; how do you prove it one
    way or the other), and the result is anarchy.
    
    This is similar to the "any viewpoint is valid if someone holds it"
    nonsense that I've seen espoused elsewhere (including =wn=).
    
    There is a lot in this conference that I (not a woman) find
    offensive in general in the way that it portrays women. I generally
    view this material in the context of "consider the source". Just as
    there are bitter women in the world, there are bitter men, and they
    seem to gravitate to this conference. Unfortunately, shutting them
    up seems only likely to make them more bitter.
    
    Maybe it would be simpler to rename the file ... something like
    MENBEHAVINGBADLY.NOTE?

    
    The basenote is being deleted, apparently, so it isn't necessary
    (or productive) to go through a long discussion about these points.

    Surely there are things to discuss in the male experience which
    do not involve ongoing negative portrayals of a protected minority
    in general.

    Mennotes has a lot of potential value, aside from this.
    

Christine,

Thanks for your voice of reason. 

daryll

    
    If the only way a minority member can be treated with full rights 
    as a human being is by agreeing with the majority group being 
    represented, it's a pretty bad sign for the way minorities are 
    being treated in general in a given forum.

    The corporation's guidelines are very clear on this subject.
    Digital is a major corporation which cannot afford to do anything
    less than provide the full legal protection specified for their
    employees.


    I'm only asking folks here to do the right thing, according to
    these principles.

    I do hope Fred will not leave this notesfile.  I have enjoyed all of
    his contributions.  I have not seen any overt derogatory comments about
    women in this notesfile.  Maybe I missed them.  However I won't say that
    something doesn't exist just because I have not seen it.
    Any  blatant sexism I have seen in notesfiles has been observed in 
    Womannotes - the area with the "sexist humour" comes to mind in WN.
    
    I don't believe a college degree (or several) makes one person smarter
    or better than another, nor do I think that screaming victim constantly
    is effective.  If anything it diminishes the plea of those that really
    are victims.  Everyone is entitled to their own view, but when I
    seen the same person make the same comments ad nauseum, it gets dull
    very quickly.  But that is taken care of very nicely with [next
    unseen].
    
    I read this notesfile primarily to get a man's point of view, so I hope
    that men do not get discouraged and leave.  There are many "read onlys"
    and you may not hear from us very often, but many of us are on your
    side.
    
    Nancy 
         
    

    The overt derogatory comments about women in this file are a matter
    of record, not opinion.

    The policies which are supposed to prohibit such remarks about 
    minorities are also a matter of record, not opinion.

    College degrees don't necessarily make people smarter than others,
    but they are offered to help remind offenders that women are full 
    human beings (with all the same varieties of education, gifts and
    talents as any other full human being) on this planet and in this 
    corporation.

    The biggest point being made in Mennotes is that men are victims.

    Persistently degrading minorities in the workplace is supposed to be
    illegal.  This is not an opinion (or a 'cry'), but a matter of record.

                      <<< Note 268.22 by ALFA1::PEASLEE >>>

  >  But that is taken care of very nicely with [next unseen].
    
     Amen to that Nancy.

    
    'Next unseen' is FAR preferable to attempts to pound the daylights
    out of a minority member for daring to disagree on some small point
    in a discussion.
    

    Seems like another 'your wrong, I'm right' note. There's nothing
    illegal about disagreeing with someone - whoever they are, whatever
    they do or wherever they went to school.
    
    Martin

    
    Martin, I've never said it's illegal to disagree with someone.

    It's illegal to portray minorities in general in derogatory ways
    in the workplace (and this is clearly what I've been describing 
    in this topic all along.)

    The 'attempts to pound the daylights out of minority members for
    disagreeing on a small point in a discussion' is simply not as
    preferable as a good ole 'next unseen', as I indicated.

    
    Let's clear the slate on all this and invite corporate human 
    resources to monitor this file for the way minorities are 
    portrayed here.

    If you're right and minorities are not being treated badly
    or illegally in Mennotes, it shouldn't matter how many observers
    from corporate human resources take a look.

    Personally, I think things would clean up here pretty fast
    (and I'd be very happy to see Mennotes get a clean bill of
    health some months later.)

    You are probably the largest single contributor to Mennotes. You 
    often take a stand on issues that are contraversial and it seems you
    are now offended that someone disagrees with you from time to time. 
    But that is my right - see the first amendment.
    
    Martin  

    
    My main objection is the negative, derogatory ways women in general
    are portrayed in this file.  THIS is the source of the big arguments 
    here, and such disparaging remarks about minorities in general are 
    supposed to be illegal.

    As mentioned, let's clear the slate (forgetting ALL past incidents
    here) and invite corporate human resources to monitor how minorities
    are treated here.  My guess is that the presence of an official
    observer would improve things here a great deal.


    By the way, Digital dictates how people use company resources. You must
    abide by Digital corporate policies, which do not include free speech.

    

    I disagree - I think it would be the thin end of the wedge and they 
    couldn't stay out of all the other issues aswell, e.g. how much time 
    individuals spend in notes etc.. 
    
    How about you speaking up when / if something upsets you or seems 
    derogatory ? 
    
    Martin

Does anyone really think a file that is _supposedly_ filled 
with nothing but derogatory remarks about a minority, such as this 
one is _alleged_ to be, would be ignored by HR?

    RE: .31  Martin
    
    > How about you speaking up when / if something upsets you or seems 
    > derogatory ? 
    
    Speaking up to whom?  Corporate human resources or to the file in
    general?
    

    RE: .32  Daryll

    > Does anyone really think a file that is _supposedly_ filled 
    > with nothing but derogatory remarks about a minority, such as this 
    > one is _alleged_ to be, would be ignored by HR?

    I didn't say that the file had NOTHING BUT derogatory remarks about
    a minority - they do run rampant, but most of the rest of the file
    is filled with attempts to stomp on minorities for objecting to the
    comments (and objecting to the attempts to stomp.)

    At one point, Digital had 17,000 notesfiles.  They don't monitor
    every notesfile.

    I guess that depends on what is said. I can't speak for everyone, but I
    doubt there any intent to upset you so I would expect that if you
    mention it in here, it will stop. 
    
    Martin   
    
    

    
    Martin, I'm mentioning it here now - do you see any attempts (other
    than yours JUST NOW) to stop the remarks about women in general?

    Do you see anyone asking what it is that is being said about women
    in general that is so derogatory?  Do you see anyone (besides you 
    just now) asking what can be done to improve the situation?

    Do you see anyone (besides you just now) concerned that perhaps the
    line is being crossed somewhere in this file with regards to a
    minority group, so perhaps some other action should be taken here
    to keep from letting it happen again?

    I've been objecting to comments here about women_in_general for ten
    years.  Are you saying that such objections will be heard now?

    re .36:
    
    Ten years?  Wow, have we been here that long?  Maybe we should have a
    party or some such.  
    
    - M

Has anyone complained to HR? If not, why?

    re .38
    
    Missing the 10 year party really does not warrant a complaint to HR. 
    I thought about it, but decided against it.
    
    - M

Just checking.

    I would suggest that the individual concerned about prostate cancer
    go over to the medical notesfile and check it out there.  

    justme....jacqui

re .28

	Are you saying that men are getting special treatment because they
	are a protected minority, or just "victimized men"?  Even though
	both groups are in the minority that does not imply that they would
	want the majority group (women) to view them as victims.  From what
	I hear they would just want to be treated fairly according to the
	principles of equality -- the ones women have been battling to achieve
	 these many years.

I have reviewed (again) corporate policies and I am convinced that this
conference fully meets the letter and spirit of all corporate policies.
(Indeed, I have worked hard to make sure that it does over the years.)

If someone feels up to making a complaint to HR, that's their right to do.


					Steve

	I would welcome an examination by HR.  Think about it.  HR could
	provide any guidelines they believe we need to know (should we
	not be following any completely), and we could all breathe
	easier knowing we were in compliance or could come into compliance.

	I'm sure ALL our noters would be happy and pleased to know we were
	in compliance, wouldn't you think?

	Furthermore, it would give HR personell a chance to see the diversity
	of opinion in here, and perhaps learn something themselves (the
	"investigation" might not be a boring task, at least).

	Dave

Continuation of .42
	
	Of course, those men conscripted for the glorious patriotic war-of-
	the-moment and returning maimed, traumatically stressed, with
	the wife/girlfriend/kids gone, and /or job-less might argue that
	in spite of their new distinction as "hero"  they were just doing
	their duty (i.e. had no choice) and didn't support that war in the
	first place.  Some might say in being drafted they were not leading
	the sweet life of the dominant, controlling, independent, free bird
	-- but, simply fulfilling a specialized role, with its plusses and
	minuses.

	Likewise the high-blood-pressured, ulcerated, smoking, stressed-out
	alcoholic, divorced,  drug using, street living man who was barred
	from seeing his kids might object that men's lives were always a
	bed of roses -- maybe, even, that he got the worst role.

	If you stop looking at it as a case of one group with all the
	benefits gleefully surpressing the other (to protect all the special
	priviledges), and examine reality from the perspective of specialized
	roles, many times equally rigid demanding, threatening, tiring, etc.,
	you may be able to understand (and understand what is coming just as
	surely as magmic pressures building up for the eruption (no humor
	intended).

	Dave

    Well, I would more than welcome monitoring by corporate HR.
    
    It was my suggestion, and I think it would make a huge
    difference here in the way women are portrayed (and treated
    when any disagree with the highly negative portrayals of
    women.)

    If you guys think all is hunky-dory, then none of us has
    anything to worry about.
    
    I'm glad we agree.
    

    HR is free to come and go as they please, just like everyone else.
    
    - M