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Conference quark::mennotes

Title:Discussions of topics pertaining to men
Notice:Please read all replies to note 1
Moderator:QUARK::LIONELE
Created:Thu Jan 21 1993
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:268
Total number of notes:12755

229.0. " Custody/Support Questions" by QUARK::MODERATOR () Fri Jun 28 1996 14:51

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
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				Steve






    For reasons I won't get into, I now have custody of my 17 year
    old daughter.  The original divorce agreement ('89) was very
    basic ... custody to Mom - child support - medical benefits -
    accommodations for college, etc. ... and  my X and I are still very
    communicative and able to reason through most situations.
    
    My questions are ... What do I do now?  I assume that I need to
    go to the court and apply for a modification of orders.  Yes?
    Do I NEED to hire a lawyer to go through this process?
    
    Thanks!!!!
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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229.1MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaFri Jun 28 1996 15:354
    There was a change of custody from one parent to another? Of course
    there is a change in child support from on parent to another.
    
    
229.2QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Jun 28 1996 16:394
Yes, but you must file for a modification of the support order.  Until that
modification is granted, you're still liable for paying support.

				Steve
229.3MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaFri Jun 28 1996 16:455
    And if you don't file, you can be held accountable for payments and
    penilities! So, get on the phone with your attorney and go get it all
    modified!:)
    
    
229.4Good luckTEXAS1::SOBECKYIt's complicated.Fri Jun 28 1996 21:5816
    
    
    Yes, you should go to court and file for modification of support.
    Whether you seek child support from your wife depends upon you two;
    hopefully you can work that out. If the two of you are in agreement
    that because of her financial situation, and the fact that you can
    raise your daughter on the money you had been paying to your wife, that
    you don't want child support from your wife, then the judge will most
    probably allow it.
    
    You probably don't need a lawyer for these motions, especially if you
    and your wife can agree to everything beforehand. You can file the
    motions yourself.
    
    John
    
229.5BRAT::MINICHINOMon Jul 22 1996 14:5421
    Question folks. You guys know more than I. Help
    
    
    My Future husband is filing for change of divorce decree: child
    custody, with this he is filing for a change of many different things
    that he initially didn't want to make the divorce too complicated, he
    just wanted out. So my question is this, We are planning to marry VERY
    soon. We are planning to elope. His dad and myself too, are concerned
    that he ex can file for higher child support payments claiming my
    salary and his as "household income". She has been hinting around since
    she has been served, that she doesn't have enough child support to
    bring up a (soon to be) 6 year old. She works under the table on Sat
    and Sun and works for a company in Westford MA and supposedly make a
    fair salary. All on top of the child suport she gets. We cloth the son,
    we buy any essentials he needs on top of support. Can she get my salary
    attached on to the support after we are married or is my money nul and
    void from their divorce decree...????
    
    
    help!!
     
229.6CSC32::HADDOCKSaddle RozinanteMon Jul 22 1996 15:2919
>His dad and myself too, are concerned
>    that he ex can file for higher child support payments claiming my
>    salary and his as "household income". She has been hinting around since
>    she has been served, that she doesn't have enough child support to
>    bring up a (soon to be) 6 year old. 
    
    
    This has been kicked around several times in this file and in 
    Non_Custodial_Parents.  Usually the income of the spouse cannot be
    brought into "child support" awards.  If, however, the current child 
    support is not what is according to the state guidelines (most states
    go by some sort of set guideline based on the income  of both parents)
    then the support may be adjusted to conform to the guidelines.  If you
    can find documentation or witnesses of her hidden work, that would
    probably not look to good for her in court. As always, check with a
    lawher to be sure.
    
    fred();
    
229.7UCXAXP::64034::GRADYSquash that bug! (tm)Tue Jul 23 1996 14:0955
Re: .5

I just finished a year-long custody dispute in Mass.  Here's
what I've learned about the rules (amoung other things):

1. Get a lawyer.  I have an excellent one in Mass. if you need a
referral.

2. Assuming she's in Massachusetts, because jurisdiction is
based upon the residence of the custodial parent, the income of
the spouse of a non-custodial parent is exempt.  When you go to
court, he must file a financial statement; your income and
assets do not count - they're not even included on the formal
statement.

2a.  She has to file that same statement.  Your lawyer can get
an advance copy of it from her lawyer.  Check it out.

3. Strongly suggest that your lawyer subpoena the custodial
parent's bank records and income tax returns - state and
federal.  If the income doesn't match the returns, she's in deep
stuff, not only for child support fraud, but also with the state
and federal government for tax evasion.  In Mass., child support
guidelines say that the first $15K of the custodial parent's
income is exempt before calculating support.  The non-custodial
parent doesn't get this deduction...as you probably already
know.  Massachusetts, despite Governor Weld's political
commercials, is one of the more repressive child support states
in the country.

4. You can file a "Complaint for Modification" with the court -
if she's in Westford, the court is in Concord.  You'll probably
get Judge Ginsburg.  He'll probably assign a Guardian Ad Litem
to investigate.  The G.A.L. will cost around $100/hr and will
probably spend 30 hrs or so doing the investigation.  The fee is
typically divided by the two parents.  The G.A.L. will probably
be female, and will probably be biased towards the mother, even
under circumstances most favorable otherwise for the father.

5.  It's expensive, even if you win, which in the case of a
non-custodial father isn't very likely.

6.  Move fast.  Time is of the essence.  Unless there's a good
strategic reason to drag things out, it's best to get in, get
out, and get it over with as fast as possible.  If time will
show her to be at a disadvantage, then drag it out - but
otherwise, get it over with quickly, and save the kid(s) and
everyone else from the grief and pain.

Good luck.

tim

P.S. I'm a custodial father.  I had to compromise a little, but
basically I came out ok, because I have a great lawyer.
229.8SCAMP::MINICHINOTue Jul 23 1996 14:2130
    Well,
    
    inresponse to you guys
    
    she was scared enough from the threats of taking her to court for
    custody to move back to NH. She got a job in Westford. When he finally
    filed against her she had pulled some scary stuff with the police,
    (they sided with no one but the child, and when they discovered that
    she was using them to push the father, they backed off and gave us
    their total cooperation). 
    
    He has an excellent lawyer.SHE is in concord NH. We are in concord NH.
    The divorce was in Exeter county so he filed for change of venue which
    has been granted. His lawyer has suponed every thing you can possibly
    think of including an affidavit from a PHD psychologist that stated it
    would be benificial for his son to spend an extended 5 weeks with daddy
    until mommy got her crap together....it has already been packaged for
    court on the 13th of august.  His lawyer is a pit bull with heat under
    her skirt to end this fiasco quickly with her client a winner (my SO)
    His ex's lawyer is  a liability lawyer from a pending electricution
    situation that she incountered..(long, long, long story for a boring
    raining day). His lawyer said her lawyer hasn't been practicing long..
    
    I just want to thank you guys for helping me through some of this
    trying time. His ex is getting a bit strange as the day approaches. She
    is ordinaryly strange but she is acting as if nothing is amiss...
    
    thanks for the imput.
    
    me
229.9UCXAXP::64034::GRADYSquash that bug! (tm)Tue Jul 23 1996 14:3512
As far as I know, jurisdiction doesn't change until a year after
change in residence of the custodial parent, unless some action is
taken otherwise (like the request for change of venue that you
mentioned).  You're probably better off in NH - but the rules about
spouses of NCP's may be different, I don't know.  I'll hand you off
to George - he's up there. ;-)

Under your circumstances, strange is normal. ;-)

Good luck.

tim
229.10MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaTue Jul 23 1996 14:357
    .8 Hey You!! Good luck! And the pit bull sounds like Luci Pillsbury.
    She is the states known prize fighter of lawyers if this is who you
    have. She was mine for a while, till I ran out of money... another fun
    thingie to do when your responsible for bills, support, etc, etc.
    Always seems to follow up with bankruptcy... no fun...
    
    
229.11MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaTue Jul 23 1996 14:429
    The goodness is that the state doesn't seem to think that alimony or
    maintence is or should be considered a long term affair. Again. Thanks
    Tim! And .8 you should go to Tuesday nights Fathers United Meetings in
    Manchester if you want to make sure that the divorce is to go down with
    some 'fair and just' in it.
    
    Peace
    
    
229.12APACHE::KEITHDr. DeuceThu Aug 08 1996 16:08165
    
    
    In welfare reform, men seen as child support only
    
    
    
    By Ellen Debenport St. Petersburg Times
    
    WASHINGTON -- Every now and then, during Congress' long debate on
    welfare reform, someone would lament: ''What about the men? Nobody's
    talking about the fathers.'' 
    
    Wrong. Congress talked plenty about the fathers of 8 million children
    on welfare. 
    
    The men were called deadbeat dads. They were called wife beaters and
    child abusers, drunks and drug dealers. They were accused of sexually
    molesting their children and impregnating teenage girls. They were
    written off as abandoning their families or disappearing into the
    prison system. 
    
    Now that the welfare reform bill has passed, big surprise: Welfare
    mothers will get help under the new law, with job training and
    counseling, medical care, day care for the children, maybe more
    education. 
    
    And for the men? Nothing. Their only role is to pay child support. 
    
    In the new welfare, mothers are workers and nurturers, fathers are cash
    machines. A lot of people say that's bad news for men, bad news for
    women and most especially, bad news for their children. 
    
    Women in Congress were delighted to get a crackdown on child support
    included in the welfare bill. Nobody argued with them that fathers
    should support their children. Or that some men are louses. 
    
    Thousands of families could get off welfare if they got child support
    -- 25 percent of the caseload, by one estimate. But paying child
    support is more complicated. 
    
    For one thing, nearly all the fathers involved with welfare families
    are poor, too. They have the same problems as welfare mothers -- no
    job, no money, no skills, no education. 
    
    That's especially true of those who fathered babies out-of-wedlock, as
    opposed to the fathers of divorce, said Wade Horn of the National
    Fatherhood Initiative. 
    
    ''These guys often don't have any money, or if they have jobs it's in
    the underground economy,'' Horn said. ''What you may be doing is
    driving them further underground and further away from their children
    if you say, 'The first thing we're going to do is make you pay up.' '' 
    
    Lawrence Aber, director of the National Center for Children in Poverty,
    worries that the well-intentioned emphasis on child support will
    alienate men from their children, especially young men who could be
    encouraged to nurture but are likely to be broke. 
    
    ''Over the course of the 18 years of a child's life, even low-income
    men -- a very large number of them -- start making more than poverty
    wages,'' he said. 
    
    So what will keep them involved with their families? 
    
    Ideas are scarce. The best success seems to come from the Institute for
    Responsible Fatherhood, which started in Cleveland. Founder Charles
    Ballard, himself an angry young father in prison, turned his life
    around and then began to mentor other men. 
    
    His premise is that getting a father involved with his children will
    encourage him to support the children financially and see himself as a
    role model. The father is often inspired to hold down a job and
    straighten out his life. 
    
    Stuart Miller, who lobbies for the American Fathers Coalition, puts it
    like this: ''As long as we teach men that their only value is as a cash
    cow and a sperm donor, we are not going to teach them to be parents.'' 
    
    Now, about those louses. 
    
    Congress and the states have focused lately on adult men who impregnate
    teenage girls -- sexual predators, they are called. 
    
    Many states have beefed up their statutory rape laws, threatening jail
    time to young men who fool around with underage girls. The girls, once
    viewed as promiscuous, have come to be seen as victims. 
    
    Kathleen Sylvester, a teen pregnancy expert in Washington, has worked
    hard to bring this problem to light. But painting a more sympathetic
    picture of the girls seems to have made the men villains. 
    
    ''I'm acutely aware that this could be perceived as just another agenda
    to put more men of color in jail,'' Sylvester said. 
    
    Prosecutors are using the statutory rape laws to get child support.
    They tell the fathers they won't have to go to jail if they pay up,
    which Sylvester sees as satisfactory. 
    
    ''It's important not to be overly romantic about all young fathers --
    there are some unscrupulous ones,'' Aber said. ''But it's even more
    important to recognize they are a minority.'' 
    
    States are just beginning to address the problem of jobless men who owe
    child support. 
    
    Florida, a national leader in welfare reform, has a pilot program in
    three counties to find jobs for the fathers of children on Aid to
    Families with Dependent Children. These are fathers, and a few mothers,
    who don't have custody of their children. 
    
    In the first two weeks, three of four parents found jobs, said Pam
    James of Gulf Coast Community Care, which contracts with the state to
    run the program. 
    
    The only official goal is to help the parent work and pay child
    support, but the staff has other hopes. 
    
    ''We're trying to patchwork the non-custodial parent back into the
    lives of the children,'' James said. ''Even two visits a year and child
    support is preferable to silence and AFDC.''
    
    The old welfare system is notorious for breaking up families. The rules
    say a family can't get a welfare check if the children's father lives
    at home. A boyfriend who is not their father can live there. But if Mom
    marries him, her check gets cut. 
    
    Under the new bill, states will have to figure out for themselves
    whether they can encourage marriage and discourage out-of-wedlock
    births through welfare policy and whether they can re-engage men with
    their families. 
    
    The hazards of fatherless families are increasingly well-known.
    One-quarter of America's children live in mother-only homes, and
    studies show they're far more likely to be poor, drop out, get pregnant
    or go to jail. 
    
    Horn says 60 percent of America's rapists, 72 percent of juvenile
    murderers and 70 percent of long-term prison inmates grew up without
    fathers. 
    
    Not all are poor. The damage seems to occur across the board. 
    
    Not all fathers are poor, either, but they still cite reasons for not
    paying child support. Mainly they blame mothers who won't let them near
    their children. Visitation is key. One study showed 79 percent of the
    fathers with joint custody or visitation paid some or all of their
    child support. 
    
    The new welfare bill acknowledged this by including a little money to
    enforce visitation rights. Florida, too, has a new visitation law to
    encourage contact between non-custodial parents and children. 
    
    ''Fathers want to be partners with women,'' Miller said. ''Women say,
    'We don't need the men, we just want their money.' That's really
    disturbing about the women's movement, or at least the people speaking
    for them.'' 
    
    The goal of government, all said, should be to help parents balance
    work and parenting between fathers and mothers. 
    
    ''Ask my child who the best parent is, he'll tell you in a heartbeat:
    It's both,'' said Miller, who has custody of his 8-1/2-year-old son,
    Blaine. 
    
    (Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service.)
229.13CSC32::HADDOCKSaddle RozinanteThu Aug 08 1996 16:585
    re .12
    
    				:^)
    
    fred();