Conference quark::mennotes

Maybe you should take up Morris dancing? :-)

			Steve

Heavens, no!  I'll leave that to the English, thank you very much.

Not quite my cup of tea!

//atp

Where I grew up (Middle West of America), male ballet dancers were definitely
regarded as sissies.  I don't know why, maybe just because they had to move
slowly and gracefully, which is definitely not a guy thing.

It was not dancing as a whole.  Every man was expected to be able to dance. 
Ballroom dancing, square dancing, tap and even modern dance were OK for guys. 
Just not ballet.  Chorus dancing, as in musical comedy, was borderline.  I guess
it depended on whether the chorus boy could rip off a good time step when he had
to.

Does this make any sense to me now?  No.  

I envy you doing it.  I admire dancers, and have thought about taking it up to
improve my amateur acting, but I feel too old and clumsy.

If it bothers you how men react, try telling them you are learning tap.  If they
can't handle Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire, there is always Jimmy Cagney.

    The advantage of Morris dancing is you get to hit each other with
    sticks.

    I once had to explaine, give example for ballett(sp). Imagine being a
    space traveler, and you go to a planet where the way folks comunicated
    was thru dance. And did not speak via like us Earth folk do.:) For a
    cleint that I was chauffiering around whist moonlighting, took clients
    to see the Nutcracker.:)
    
    

re .3

Thanks for the comments.  Interestingly, I have also started tap lessons, and
they are met with almost as much suspicion as ballet (this is Central 
Scotland).

>I envy you doing it.  I admire dancers, and have thought about taking it up to
>improve my amateur acting, but I feel too old and clumsy.

Oh, you're never too old - check out http://www.execpc.com/~jjjurek/

>If it bothers you how men react, try telling them you are learning tap.  If they
>can't handle Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire, there is always Jimmy Cagney.

It doesn't bother me _now_.  But I now realise that what I'm enjoying at 30,
I'd have loved at 16, and it would have helped me through my rather naive
adolescence...  Unfortunately, I worried then about what folk thought.  Now,
if someone doesn't like it - tough!

But I'd still love to know the _why_ - why do men perceive male ballet 
dancers as sissies?  I was hoping to find someone here who had such 
perception and was willing to try to explain it.

regards,
//alan

    Alan,
    
    In Colorado, one of the more highly regarded football (US-Style)
    players is/was also heavily involved in one of the Denver Ballet
    companies.   I don't think anyone would try to describe this man as
    gay, and other coaches in colleges and the NFL were also encouraging
    dance (Classical ballet or modern dance) to avoid injuries and increase
    flexibility and coordination.
    
    FWIW any man who can heft and balance 132+ pounce ballerinas has more
    than enough muscle to deal with anyone who calls him an oddball.
    
    meg

    Arrrrnold S., if anyone rememebers 'Pumping Iron', took ballett. So,
    dance is not for girlymen as some might be falsely in though.:)
    
    

         <<< Note 228.7 by CSC32::M_EVANS "I'd rather be gardening" >>>

>    FWIW any man who can heft and balance 132+ pounce ballerinas has more
>    than enough muscle to deal with anyone who calls him an oddball.
>    
>    meg

Hefting and balancing 132 probably takes some practice skill and strength, and 
I would never call this guy an oddball even if he pounces ballerinas.

Mark

Some years ago my wife stated that she would like to go to the ballet. So I got
some ticket's for a Scottish Ballet presentation, thinking that I'd probally at
least enjoy the music.

I really loved it. We ended up with season tickets! 

However, I still find that I have to keep telling myself that its OK to like 
this. Lets face it, if it was only women dancers I don't think I'd have this 
problem. But I do watch the men dancing. I'm watching their bodies. I know its
not sexual - its just interesting. But someone, somewhere, made me think that I
shouldn't do that.

Audiences are largely women/girls. I suspect they watch the women dancers and 
identify with them. They probably find a similar interest in the men, maybe 
even sexual as well. I just realised I never asked my wife!

I would guess that, overall, there are more women in ballet than men. I would 
expect that any man working that closely with women is going to get the 
"masculine corners" rounded off, and, at least in the less tolerant past, a
better reception if they were gay. So I think you'll find the stereotype is
to some extent justified.

However, I'd love to have been blessed with the kind of grace to do it myself.

John

John,

Thanks for your note - you made some very good points.  There was one in
particular that started me thinking down a route I'd like to share, to see
if it makes sense to anyone else.

>However, I still find that I have to keep telling myself that its OK to like 
>this...But I do watch the men dancing. I'm watching their bodies. I know its
>not sexual - its just interesting. But someone, somewhere, made me think that I
>shouldn't do that.

Okay, I _know_ that I'm about to make some generalisations here, but I'm
trying to understand this in the context of society.

Ladies tend to dress in a way to emphasise their sexual attractiveness,
presumably mainly aimed towards men.  Hence they wear skirts, tights,
tight-fitting tops and other garments to emphasise their sexuality.  Men find
physical attractiveness very important in their selection of a mate.

Ladies appear to place less importance on the looks of men, especially when
they are looking for a long-term mate.  If they're just looking for a
one-night stand, they may look more for looks than they would when looking for
a husband.

Dance is about sex.  And dancers of both sexes dress in a way to emphasise
their sexuality.  Hence men wear tights, dance belts and so on.  Men seeing
males dressed like that tend to assume that they are the targets of the
"selling" of the sex.  Women, being used to seeing women dressed to sell
themselves, aren't so aware of this aspect of the women's dress, but are very
aware of the men's dress.

So, the men in the audience can feel slightly nervous, thinking that this sex
is being aimed at them, even though it isn't really.

Is this comprehensible?  I don't know if this is really what's happening but
it does seem believable, and John's experience (of feeling that somehow it's
wrong to look at this man on stage) is one that I have heard from others.

regards,
//alan

    Alan,
    
    this woman will never tell
    
    ;-)

Real men don't dance.

But wait...so and so from such and such football/basketball/hockey/any_other_
"manly"_sport team does!

Oh, so it's okay, I can feel better about dancing then.

Real men don't knit.

But wait...etc, etc..

Oh boy, that was close, here's a sweater I've knitted. Nice?

Real men don't eat quiche.

But..ditto..

Oh, well then it's okay. I'm hungry.


My point is...why do we need to draw on men in "those fields" who
happen to have interests in "these fields" in order to make it acceptable
for all other men?

If I have an interest that doesn't exactly equate to being "manly", and I find 
that some sports hero has the same interest, it doesn't make me feel any 
different...any more of a man than before I found out about it.


Bob

re:.11
>Dance is about sex.  And dancers of both sexes dress in a way to emphasise
>their sexuality.  

This topic prompted me to ask my wife if she did find the male dancers 
sexually attractive. She said that it only happened once, with one dancer 
in "Romeo and Juliet". In fact she went on to say that she mostly found 
them, somehow, too effeminate to be a sexual turn-on. She did, however, 
enjoy the way they control their bodies.

Personally, I don't find the female ballet dancers particularily sexual 
either, and I know it is possible to catch my interest that way - I've 
been to strip shows :-) Maybe in days-gone-by, when women's fashion was
more circumspect, the typical ballerina's stage costume was more sexually
appealing. 

For me, dance is mostly about telling a story without words. That may be 
the obvious ones that you read in the programme, or it might be much more
obscure, and leave you feeling unsure that you got the message. It always
leaves me wanting more.

Cheers,
        John

.13>If I have an interest that doesn't exactly equate to being "manly", and I
>find 
>that some sports hero has the same interest, it doesn't make me feel any 
>different...any more of a man than before I found out about it.

I agree, but some folks like the reassurance of a safe example.  Alan seems more
interested in where the stereotype came from.

.11>Dance is about sex.  And dancers of both sexes dress in a way to emphasise
>their sexuality.  Hence men wear tights, dance belts and so on.  Men seeing
>males dressed like that tend to assume that they are the targets of the

Hmm.  Good idea and there may be a lot to it.  It and .14 triggered a few more
thoughts.

Classical ballet seems to have little or nothing to do with sex these days or
when I was growing up.  It was different long ago when "opera dancers" like
actresses were considered little more than prostitutes.  When I was growing up,
ballerinas were considered as sexless as nuns.  The sense I had was that male
dancers were not seen as flaunting their wares, but as effeminate and equally
sexless.

You remind me of the costumes and that may have had a lot to do with it. 
Tights, satin, frills, ruffles and scarves were all women's clothing.  The only
other men who wore them were Shakesperean actors, and these were also suspect
when I was growing up.  As I remember, the costumes were always mentioned when
anybody was sneering at ballet dancers.

By contrast, tap dancers generally performed in black tie or suits, and Gene
Kelly did his most memorable work in slacks and t shirt.  I always had the sense
that he was deliberately contrasting his costume with that of classical dancers.

re .14 and .15

Both commented that neither male nor female dancers came across as "sexual"

I find this interesting, as well as a bit of a shame.  Thinking about my own
reactions, I can see that a single-sex chorus of dancers may well not come
across as being terribly sexual.

Yet when I see a well-danced romantic duet, I almost always feel a very strong
sense of sexual energy.  Maybe it's just my own fantasies playing up :-)

I haven't performed any ballet dancing, but I have taken part in show dancing.
On various occasions, without going into detail, I have been very aware of the
sexual tensions and energy that can be generated in such a situation.  So it
may be that I am projecting my own (amateur) experiences onto the
(professional) performances I am watching, and seeing something different from
that which others see.

I'm going off on holiday tomorrow, so I shan't be able to watch any replies
that are made - but thanks to those who have responded.  It's been
interesting!

Best wishes to all,

regards,
//alan

PS Just a final thought on costumes (I think I mentioned this to someone in a
   mail).  As more sportsmen seem to be wearing tights to do their sports (eg
   cyclists, hillwalkers, runners, etc), I wonder whether it will become more
   normal to see men in tights generally, and hence ballet dancers will stand
   out less?