Conference quark::mennotes

My advice - don't send the letter.  It will accomplish nothing but additional
ill will.  I'm sure this is very painful for you, but what really is your
motivation here?  What do you expect to accomplish?  If it makes you feel
better, write the letter and then lock it away. (Or shred it.)  Don't send it.
In the end you will feel better about yourself if you keep to the "high road".

In the aftermath of my own divorce, I had many similar thoughts.  But I'm
glad now that I didn't follow through on them.

I would really have to question the competence of a therapist who recommends
such an action....

				Steve

Dear Anon,

I can see a lot of pain and hurt in your mail.  I can also see that you are
working at getting beyond it.  I wish you well.

My advice is that you burn those pictures and negatives, as soon as possible.  I
could say destroy, but burning is more reliable, more dramatic and therefore
more satisfying.

As for the letter, I would write two of them, one to him and one to her.  Keep
trying until they say everything you feel.  Then gather up all your drafts and
final copies, invite a few close friends as witnesses, burn the lot and say
goodby to the whole mess.

I've seen this done, and have written a few letters myself which never got
mailed.  It does seem to be healing, when done in the right spirit.

While you are working on this, take good care of your drafts.  This is nothing
you want anyone else to see.

I'll assume that something like this is what your therapist had in mind.  I
agree with Steve that I can't imagine a therapist advising you to send such a
letter.

As for sending such a letter, I would be ready to send it:

	never

	never in this lifetime

	after I was totally sure I had let go of all the pain and hurt 
	that I felt, and was writing in an entirely disinterested spirit

	only if I was sure there was something specific I know that she does
	not which she needs to know.  I only add this to cover a few
	possibilities, for example, that he is a secret drug abuser.
	There is nothing like that in this letter.


>I have heard from more than one person in his family that you do not 
>understand why I dislike you so much. 

I can't understand why people think they are being helpful in giving you
messages like this.  Your feelings about this woman are your own business, and
nobody else needs to ask why about your feelings.  You are working to deal with
these feelings, and once again I wish you well.

Wally

    re .0
    
    Whatever your real intent, the letter will be _viewed_ as vindictive
    and will have little or none of the impact you intend it to have.
    Like Wally says, burn the letters, but I think I'd use the pictures
    as dart-boards.  It's much more satisfying ;^).

    They way I handled the situation was to consider that if this is the
    kind of woman he wants and this is the kind of man she wants, then
    they both deserve everything they got--each other, and you the better
    off for being rid of him.  You're trying to hold on to a fiary-tale
    of what you hoped your marriage to be, not what it was, and you still
    hold to the dream that somehow, some way it will all be ok and the
    marriage will be the dream you want it to be.  Well--welcome to 
    "no fault" divorce.

    fred();

    
       I've been 'read only' for years here, but wanted to reply to this. 
    
       I know in therapy they sometimes encourage writing letters, this
    helps release a lot of anger and hurt one feels towards this type of
    situation. but, as to sending it that's a matter of choice, personally
    i wouldn't send this letter. I wouldn't send the pictures. It may hurt
    YOU and your children more than the ex's girlfriend....
    
       One of the replies said I think .2 to burn the pictures and
    negative. Also the letter. I'm in a woman's group and we took memories
    of our ex's and did a ritual of burning these items. It helped in
    letting out some of the anger and hurt we felt towards these
    individuals, no one got hurt doing it. Very small fire in a sink that
    had ample access to water. They also lit a green candle which signifies
    grieving or something like that. There's a grieving process over these
    losses. 
    
        Keep working on yourself, your grief and any anger you feel. If
    your only going to counseling, you could check out groups. There are
    many types of groups you could get into, but most important is to 
    not let you anger get in the way of doing anything that may hurt you.
    
       I don't know why, but I got this 'sneaky' feeling that the 'ex' may
    have deliberately left the photos just to either further hurt you, or
    maybe even dare you to do something foolish that would make you look
    bad. It sounds like he was trying to make you feel 'guilty' for his 
    cheating on you, these photos have got to have hurt even more.
    
        good luck,
    
       Rosie
        Rosie

    
    I agree with the folks who say burn the pictures, negatives, and
    letters.  If you do want to send a letter I'm left with the question of
    what is your goal?  When I read the draft I read an attack based on
    anger (very understandable anger); I am not sure what you wanted to
    achieve with this letter.  
    
    To me it seems if you need to write a letter your husband is the more
    likely candidate.  Your ex-husband married you and made promises that
    he did not keep.  This women made no promises to you and biggest fault
    seems to be falling for a man who likely will cheat on her; her payback
    probably awaits in the future.
    
    For me bottom line is your ex is still the father of your child.  He
    has done you wrong and caused much pain.  However, your actions
    in response can futher color your and his relationship and how it
    affects your child.  If you can take the high road as long as you can
    to help your child as much as you can.
    
    Greg
    

    I shouldn't really reply here, but I was engaged to a man who did
    exactly the same thing. I was embarking on a lifetime with this man and
    he did such things behind my back with all my trust with him. I was
    encouraged to write letters, as many as possible or to keep a journal
    of what I was feeling. THis in itself was the best therapy. I would
    only read them once a week. 
    As for the pictures, I felt better wripping them up but burning sounds
    like it would feel ok...He has obviously moved on with his life, you
    must do the same. But giving his "girl friend" the benifit of knowing
    you are hurt and devistated, may infact, make her feel better. Move on
    with your life, you have children that you need to be "well" for. You
    have to be the "healthy parent" no matter how hard it is, if you are
    not happy and healthy emotionally, your children will suffer. You are a
    single parent and need as much emotional support as possible. Use the
    energy from the anger for something wonderful and productive. Maybe get
    the children involved with a project with you and use this energy to 
    be happy....because as Ivana says, "happiness is the best revenge"!
    
    It's hard, but you had the courage to write about it, that means you
    have the courage to concer this situation. You have been through
    difficult times...you can get through this. 
    
    I can't imagine your feelings, but I was humiliated, embarrassed,
    devistated and worst, I felt betrayed in my soul. That hurt the most,
    but I'm now engaged to a wonderful, thoughtful, caring man. He is the
    best thing that ever happened to me, the past has given me strength to
    move forward. I can overcome anything...it's kind of amazing.
    
    Anon, move on with your life, you sound as if you have much to offer
    someone worthy of your goodness. 
    
    Burn the letters, burn the pictures...keep a journal and project your
    energy to a more positive and useful excercise. It's hard, no doubt
    about it, but you have to remember you have courage. 
    
    
    me
    

    Dear Anon:
    
    I believe that your therapist and your priest may have suggested
    writing this letter in an effort to "cleanse your soul".  However,
    I don't believe that anyone would recommend or even suggest MAILING
    it!!!   You have expressed very well, your anger, hurt, and state of 
    despair.  Now it's time to move past this.  After your massage,
    makeover, manicure, and meditation, burn the flippin photos and the 
    letter while sipping very expensive champagne.  Do this in the company
    of a very sympathic (friend) and sexual healer, preferably someone with
    whom you feel confident will not exploit your "rebound", or just
    someone who clearly understand the rules of "transitional
    relationships".
    
    Reclaim your diginity!  When it's time to engage in family obligations,
    visitation, or other situations with your ex, treat him like a
    stranger.  No, Really!!!  Be Polite, Civil, and Firm.  Save your
    emotional energy for something more positive like passion, lust, or
    country line dancing. 
                        

         Dear Anon,
    
       My thoughts and prayers are with you. Burn the pictures, nagatives
    and letter. Like your situation my ex had an extended affair right 
    under my nose. I was too naive to realize it. I confronted her boyfriend 
    and it only added to the anguish of my failed marriage. As a Christian 
    this type of things wasn't supposed to happen. Adults are supposed to be 
    adult and try to work things out. It's just not possible when the 
    attention of your spouse is focused on someone else. Seeing a counselor
    and Priest are good steps to putting your life back together. Look
    forward and be the best mom you can be for your children..
    
            Bob 

Anon,
     I think you are on the right track. Talking to your therapist , priest and
to us here is good. Writing the letter is good. Sending it would probably not
be a good idea.

     Those photos must have been very upsetting. They are from the past and you
are moving forward. Burning them may be the most theraputic thing to do.

     I'd suggest keeping the letter. Then you can look back and read it and see
how far you have moved on. There is a lot of blame in teh letter. When you can
forgive and take responsibility for yourself then you will be over this.

Take care,
Move on,
Peter.

    Dear Anon,
    
    Burn the photos, burn the letter, what you want to happen won't.
    I know.  I have at least 25 letters at home from my SO's ex-wife.
    We weren't having an affair.  She chose to believe we were, it
    may have helped her grieve, I don't know.  She was looking for 
    an explanation as to why 19 years of marriage failed, and I was the
    most convenient one that didn't involve her blaming herself.  What 
    I do know is she propagated that belief to their two children and 
    created a web of lies and hurt that has kept the children believing 
    they must choose one parent or the other for five years now.  Your
    situation sounds much different but I'm sure the pain is not.  During
    the worst times, one the reasons I hung in was that I wouldn't give his
    ex the satisfaction of having driven me away.  Your letter may set up the
    same situation.  I've also received the "good advice" letter from his
    ex and was about as grateful for it as I would be for a punch in the nose.
    The pain fades in time.  The damage you can do to your children does not.
    The children love their father even if you do not, and you need to
    maintain a civil relationship with him for your children sake. 
    Children need both parents.  Please, don't make your children choose.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

re: 0

Wow, I can only say that I can 'almost' imagine your pain...
But I have to agree with just about everything said already...

Do what ever you need to do to vent, or heal, but sending
the letter is not going to do anything positive....

If 'they' cared, 'they' would have been more carefull...
worse possible situation is they get one more good laugh
out of your pain..

Just try and take solice in the fact that what goes around 
comes around, you do what ever you can to go on with your
life.. someday, your ex may want his family back,, by
then, you ought to plan on being a million light years
away from that regression...

Peace..

/ray

    Dear Anon:
    
    I would like to share this with you:  I had a flip-type calendar 
    on which was written various quotes, and other words of wisdom for each
    day.  On Tuesday, May 21, 1991, the saying was - WHEN YOU FORGIVE SOMEBODY
    ELSE, YOU ACCEPT THE RESONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN FUTURE.  I still have this
    "page" in history and refer to it often whenever I feel the tendancy to 
    indulge in the "victim syndrome".  However, since acquiring my "instant 
    family" these tendancies to self destruct have been reduced to a real 
    minimum.  For you and your children's sake, don't become one of those 
    women that make a hobby out of being a victim.  You sound like you've 
    got a lot going for you.  The best revenge is being successful.  Evolving 
    above the status quo who will remain obsessed, consumed by their own anger,
    and blind to the beauty that this world has waiting for you, would only
    be food for therapists, and members of you peer group who delight in
    your misfortune. 
    
    Also, I happen to strongly disagree with the noter who suggested you
    retain the letter for a time when you can refer to it and realize how
    much you've learned.  Excuse me, but You wrote this letter.  You know
    what it says.  Retaining it for prosterity will only prove to be
    counter-productive.  Unless you're taking a creative writing course and
    wish to compare your writing, grammar and punctuation skills, burn it
    and the photo's and (thanks prev noter) don't forget to burn the
    negatives.                
    
    .0.

Some noters have suggested keeping the letter, some suggest burning it.

I think you should burn it, but you will know when it is time.

I keep the journals I write.  I don't look back through them very often.  When I
do, I am struck by two things: how far I have come and how gradual real change
is.  The first helps me see that I can change.  The second keeps me from looking
for today's miracle cure.

I suggest you keep these letters, as long as you are actively working through
this.  When you are ready to let go, burn the lot.

You'll know when.

As for pictures and negatives, I hope they are already smoke and ashes.

By the way, it doesn't have to be letters, although that works well for us
verbal types.  Some folks use drawing or painting, clay, singing or dancing. 
Whatever works.

    
    Sorry to go against the grain here, but If you want to send the
    letters and pictures...Do it. Send them today. You know yourself better
    than anyone else. Those noters who said burn the letters, don't send
    the letters, might have some good advice for you. But by doing what you
    have been thinking about doing might be exactly what you need to do.
    I'd send the letters(and have sent letters). Vindictive, Nasty,
    inmature,etc....thats how I reacted and I felt good after sending the
    letter. 
    The sending of the letter is not going to change anything, BUT, it
    might be the release that you are looking for.
    If you don't send the letters/pictures then give them put them in a
    safe deposit box, lock them away. Someday you might burn them,maybe
    not.
    Do what your instincts tells you to do. Then move on...your kids need
    you.
    

    
        This is a little different from what I first replied. I was
    thinking about .14 saying that you should send the letter.
    
       Maybe, if you want, and you think it may help you to feel better,
    but not really make you look 'bad'. Send the pictures along with a
    different type letter. This letter stating how you were looking through
    things to see what he may want, you found the pictures and realized
    that maybe they would like to have them. Say something like. Well, I
    figured I don't really want these pictures and the ex and his girl
    may want to keep them. Make it look like your just sending them along,
    just 'in case' they may like to keep them. This way they know you saw
    the pictures and it looks like it doesn't really bother you that much,
    this may even make you look like a somewhat better person than them.
    Especially if the ex left them for you to see them. I guess I just
    find it hard to believe that he 'forgot' them or didn't remember
    them...... OR, maybe the girlfriend left them somehow for you to find.
    BUT, either way it won't matter down the road, once you've gotten
    past the hurt and all that. OR, maybe even ripped them up and along
    with a letter of apology for ripping up something that belonged to him.
    
        Just a few thoughts here. In the end, what you do will be what
    you feel you need to do.
    
        Rosie

	Personally, I would send her the pictures...
	
	Susan,
	
	Found these pictures at the house, and thought you may
	be looking for them..
	
	/xxxxx

	In a case like this, what is left UNSAID can be better!

	/robin
	

    The bitch-woman part of me that has been in this situation on both
    ends says send it and the pictures.  I was in your shoes, twice and
    inadvertantly in your ex's new so's shoes without knowing it until much
    later, when I inadvertantly said something about being tested for STD's
    to someone I never suspected was also involved.  
    
    I was nice in the first case, and didn't say anything to a daughter who
    hated every man I ever dated afterwards and has only recently come to a
    truce with my SO of 13 years.  I also said nothing to the SO even
    though I knew he was also cheating on her when she was away, as well as
    on me.  I found out later that he had been doing this to me for 5 of
    our 7 years of marriage.  She figured out that he did the same to her,
    while living the lily-white lie after 4 more.  
    
    With the second I wasn't so nice.  I sent roses to one of the other
    women, have maintained a very close relationship with another two, and
    have gotten to know number 5 only recently after 14 years.  (Some
    people are real predators in great sex clothing.)
    
    I don't know how old your kids are, and how much of a relationship he
    is maintaining with them.  this did temper my information to OW#1 with
    my ex.  I can say the anger is still there and I have just accepted it
    as a part of me.  
    
    meg
    
    I would think about this fairly firmly before sending it.  

    
       .17 That's amazing! To be able to do what you've done. I agree
    with thinking about it very carefully before doing it.
    
       .16 I like that idea! Saying that they were found and thought
    she might like them! This way they can 'wonder' what your thinking, but
    who cares about what they're 'wondering' about.
    
       Rosie

    Send the pics and say,'Hey this aint black mail'... but......:) Whats
    new on the Cadi parking lot.:)
    

    
    Depending on how good they are, maybe Enquirer or Hustler or Penthouse 
    or somebody would give you a few bucks for them.  Or maybe you could
    just have some blow-ups made and hand them out at their place of work. 
    They shouldn't mind too much if they were so proud of their actions.
    <8^).

    fred();

You can't legally publish them without permission of the subject.

			Steve

    
    Maybe, but can't you imagine their reaction when they get the release-
    forms to sign ;^).  But nothing says you can't go hand out copies on
    the street corner so long as you don't give them to kids ;^).  Might
    even get you a "movie of the week" offer.

    fred();

.24>    forms to sign ;^).  But nothing says you can't go hand out copies on


There are laws in many states about invasion of privacy.  No reasonable legal
system would go after Anon if she did this, but there's a lot of evidence in
this conference that we in the US do not live under a reasonable legal system.

Blackmail, even by implication, is also illegal.

I don't think Anon needs any legal trouble, or any trouble during custody or
support hearings.

A number of creative ideas for using the pictures could cause similar problems.
Fun to think about, for a while, but probably not to be carried out.

I would not suggest sending the pictures with a polite note, for two reasons.  

	It would be a lie - Anon is plainly not feeling polite

	It would tie Anon further to the ex and his whatever, wondering what 
	their reaction was, just when she needs to focus on herself and her 
	children


Giving them to a lawyer may be a good idea.  I would want to ask myself how I
would feel when the lawyer actually used them.

    
    Well since Anon already has practice in remaining anonymous, maybe
    she could have an 8x12 blow up made, then run off a few thousand
    copies on the Xerox and "accidentally" leave them at a bus stop and wait
    for the news media to pick up on them and ask "just who are these 
    people" and flash a copy on the evening news.  ;^).

    Note smilies (and the ones on the last few of my replies) since maybe
    a little humor is what is needed at this point.

    fred():

Response from Base Noter:

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have not mailed the letter or pictures.
I have put everything in a sealed envelope and given it to a friend to hold
onto. 

My plans for the pictures and negatives:

Sometime over the summer I will have an intimate group of friends (all female
at this point) over to a "burn the witch party". We will pass the pictures 
around and discuss her body parts in detail and basically rip her apart 
and then burn her! On one level I no this is childish, but I do feel I will get
some satisfaction from this. It is also harmless....

In regards to the letter. I will not send the letter. I now believe that
the letter only gives her power over me. If I express in writing to her
how much she has hurt me and my children then she has physical evidence
of this which she can gloat over. My feelings are mine and they are
personal and she has no right to them.

In regards to the ex.... I have a restraining order on him. It may be
dangerous for me to do anything which antagonizes him. I cannot communicate 
with him. He will not talk about the past and feels justified with everything
he has done. There will be no relieve from him.  My communication with him
is limited to discussion about the children. Drop off's, pickups, School, etc.
This by the way drives him nuts.. He still can't understand why we cannot
be friends! Some people just don't get it!!

I have examined my motives about the pictures and letter and I must 
admit though I thought this was an attempt at cleansing the soul, it 
is also about wanting to hurt and humiliate her. Her day will come, but
not from me...

My goals are to heal. To put this behind me. To have confidence in myself
as a woman who deserves to be loved and treated with respect. To get over
the bitterness so that some day when the time is right I can have a healthy
relationship. To provide a healthy, happy home for my children filled with
love. To be an example to them of how people with morals and values behave.
To teach my children to love and respect themselves as well as others.

Thanks again.... Now I have to go try and work the issue that child support
is 6 weeks late.... But that's another topic in itself.

    
    re .27
    

>Sometime over the summer I will have an intimate group of friends (all female
>at this point) over to a "burn the witch party". We will pass the pictures 
>around and discuss her body parts in detail and basically rip her apart 
>and then burn her! On one level I no this is childish, but I do feel I will get
>some satisfaction from this. It is also harmless....
    
    Maybe you could invite a Vodoo Mojo (or whatever they're called) to
    say a few chants, stick in a few pins....;^).
    
    fred();

    re blackmail. I was jesting of course. I would trash the film. But, its
    fun to make fun cause it can hurt so much that that making fun of it
    all and having fun is the only sane way to deal with it. To laugh at
    your problem sometimes takes the sting out of it. It cools the heat of
    hate to a manageable personal level. And while the other side may be
    stewing in the hate of it all. You will be on top of the problem, ahead
    of the emotional, aloof from the day to days. 
    
    Having a party for your divorce is always a good thing to do. We
    celebrate the joining of two. Why the hell not celebrate the seperation
    of the two. You can burn an effigee as I have done in the NCP note 86.
    Or you can have a Sunday brunch as a friend did, inviting her pals to
    it and thanking them for their support. And moving on to the next part
    of your life. Weither its the re-mating game, or its just a with draw
    from the fast lane you have made a turn of the page, a new chapter
    starts. 
    
    What ever you do, think it thru, for you wish not to have it back fire
    on you. Peace, love, and cold revenge.:)
    
    

    .28 You could go for a ride to Salem Mass, find the witchs, and have a
    curse put on their reproductive parts.:) Like his is cut off in a fit
    of rage case she found him in bed with another...:)
    

    I hope if the basenoter got a restraining order that it is because she
    fears for her life.  All too many people are using these for the wrong
    reasons.
    
    cj

    Reply .31
    
    Well I am not sure if he really would have killed me. He did threaten
    to. He cut my phone wires, banged on my door with a sledge hammer and
    basically terrorized me and the children (yes, they were subjected to
    this behavior).
    
    This type of behavior was never present while we were married.
    
    So was a restraining order necessary? I'm not sure. There have been no
    further episodes of this behavior. I probably will not have it renewed.
    However at the time I was frightened. Imagine being in your home with
    no phone and a maniac pounding on your door with a sledgehammer,
    screaming he was going to kill you!
    

For some time now after reading .0, I've been thinking that:

1. The right thing to do is burn them, but

2. The entertaining thing to do, depending on how, well, interesting the
   two of them are engaged in such pictures, would be to send them
   anonymously to his mother.  Nothing illegal about that, right? ;-)

But, that's just the evil sense of humor in me...;-)

Burn them, and hopefully the anger and hurt with them.

tim

    
    Actually, as I tell my kids, sometimes the absolute _worst_ thing you
    can do to somebody like this is _nothing_.  If they are indeed what
    you say they are, what they will eventually to to themselves and each
    other will be worse than anything you can come up with to do them.
    Believe it or not I have practiced this in many cases and have seen
    it work.
    
    fred();

    To the basenoter:
    
    You did the right thing.  I would keep the restraining order valid too.
    
    FWIW,
    cj
    

    .26 I like that idea!

    
      On the serious side. I'm glad after those episodes you put a
    restraining order on him. When a married couple decides to get
    divorced, there's no telling what will happen! I've just got divorced
    and it was pure h#ll!
    
       Also, if he is a cruel and visious person, they say that the
    risk of being murdered or hurt escalates during this divorcing period.
    Lots of anger from both parties. I think the important part is that
    your rationalizing what you need to do BEFORE you do it. No matter
    what happens, at least you'll have peace with yourself that you didn't
    hurt anyone in the process. Especially your children, they're the
    ones that suffer so much when the couple decides to 'revenge' each
    other.  The thoughts are okay! It's what you do with them that
    determines the outcome. It's okay to feel hurt and angry, it's okay
    to share how hurt and angry you are. Talking helps to release some of
    it. 
    
       Rosie

    Taking out a restraining order for the hell of it doesn't cut it. It
    can hurt what ever negotaitions you are looking for when it comes to
    settling a quick and easy divorce. But, if the theme is stick em in the
    ass before you get stuck, then remember, when you looking for loyalty,
    as there once was in the relationship, 'buy a puppy'. :)
    
    

    -1 
    
    What if "just for the hell of it" the guy decided to go through with
    his threat.  *That* is what restraining orders are for.  
    
    cj

    
    re .39

    This is where the numerous restraining orders requested by divorcing
    women simply to gain an upper hand in the divorce/custody battle come
    back to hurt women who really need protection.  After a while it is
    difficult not to become jaded and suspicious about the motivations of 
    all women in divorce.

    The restraining order, however, will not help much anyway if he is
    really serious about the threat.  Todays police forces are geared
    mainly to scrape up what's left after the crime rather than for
    prevention of the crime in the first place.  

    fred();

    
       I believe this woman was justified in her getting a restraining
    order. What if he did go through with it. I agree that doing things
    for the hell of it is ridiculous. But, I'm all for it if a person
    is indicating that he's getting pretty scarey. What if he used those
    things to hit her with, instead of the door.? 
    
       It took me about 4 months to finally realize that I 'needed' to put
    a restraining order on my soon to be 'ex'. I didn't want to do it for
    the 'hell' of it, I needed to do everything I could to save my own
    life. I almost got in 2 car accidents, that even though I can't PROVE
    he messed with my car to kill me, the events leading up to the almost
    car accidents certainly pointed fingers at him. Also the threats of
    pushing me over the edge and committing me to an asylum. He told me
    he'd ruin me or kill me before we got to court. My oil was
    dissappearing from my car. I had my car checked for leaks, no leaks
    and no oil puddles under the car. There are lots of ways an individual
    can 'get' the other person. I didn't try to get him, but he sure tried
    to 'get' me...... He even called the police and told them that
    I was dealing drugs. I went through HELL because of the things he tried
    to do. The restraining order was one step that helped me. Even
    though they say it's only a paper, and only as good as the people who
    have it on them. There are some individuals who don't want to go to
    jail, and they don't want to lose..... Sometimes I still worry that
    he may try to kill me and it wasn't just talk, other times I figure
    it was all 'scare' tactics he used to try and get  everything and
    revenge the fact that I dared to leave him.....
    
        It's all in the individuals case, but If a woman or man is truelly
    feeling the effects of the other one's attempts at hurting them, then
    that restraining order is a step in the right direction.
    
        Rosie

    
        re. 40 Your right about that. In spite of the things my ex has done
    to me.....I have to wait for them to scrape up my remains before the
    truth is really known as to whether he was really trying to just scare
    me or really kill me.     He even took me to court after I put the
    restraining order on him for violation of his visiting right to me! He
    actually told the judge that he needed to be able to communicate with
    me and visit me, I violated his rights by putting a restraining order
    on him. I told the judge that I didn't want to see him because of the
    verbal abuse that I have to put up with, the threats on my life, the
    telling people that I should be committed. Telling people I deal
    drugs. The judge dropped his charges against me.....He even showed me
    his fist in the court room! Right in front of the judge... Told the
    judge that he better give him what HE wants or he was going to keep
    taking me to court until he got out of me what he wanted!
    
        Rosie                                                

I think any kind of verbal threat to do another harm is valid reason for
a restraining order.  I mean, a searious verbal threat to commit violence
is illegal - it's assault.  Actual violence (i.e. battery) should not be
a prerequisite...in fact, even the verbal threat of violence alone isn't
necessary, imho.

For example: a couple going through the throes of divorce fights, and the
one partner proclaims that s/he intends to pack up the kids and leave the
state (assuming this is not a flight from violence, but simply an
escalation of the fight itself).  A restraining order is definitely in
order.  S/he has has no such right, all other things being equal.

Frivolous restraining orders for no purpose save to be used as implied
ammunition in court are certainly reprehensible, but that doesn't mean
there are plenty of perfectly good reasons for obtaining one BEFORE
someone gets their brains knocked out, or for that matter their children
taken away from them.

tim

    Rosie, if you really think that your X may hurt you, I suggest that you
    get some of that pepper spray and keep it with you all the time.  This 
    will at least disable him while you make a getaway.  And by the way, if
    he does try anything I'd have his butt put in jail for as long as
    they can.  You also may want to install some of those motion lights,
    they really do a good job of keeping people (that are sneaking) away at
    night.
    
    Take care of yourself and be careful.
    
    Regards,
    
    Dom

    
        Thanks Dom... got 2 of those pepper sprays!  
    
        Rosie

    A two fisted pepper sprayer?:)

    A restraining order is NOT to be used to get someone to not flee witht
    he children, you have to go to court and have temporary orders
    established.  A restraining order is to be used when you are in fear
    for your safety and well being.  It should not be obtained to better
    your position for custody of the children as is the case so many times
    these days.
    
    Roberta

    Restraining orders are often handed out like parking tickets to men.

>    A restraining order is NOT to be used to get someone to not flee witht
>    he children, you have to go to court and have temporary orders
>    established.  A restraining order is to be used when you are in fear
>    for your safety and well being.  It should not be obtained to better
>    your position for custody of the children as is the case so many times
>    these days.
    
I disagree.  So did my attorney.  So did the judge.  It had nothing to do
with bettering anyone's position for custody - it had to do with preventing
the children themselves from becoming a pawn, which so often happens in
such cases.  Fleeing with the children is not generally considered for
their well-being when there's no risk to anyone's safety otherwise. 
Getting a hearing for temporary orders can take weeks; fleeing the
jurisdiction takes an hour.  

Restraining orders do not simply apply to violence.  A restraining order
can simply be to request an order to stay put and not leave the
jurisdiction during a pending court case.  There's nothing wrong with that.

Funny how often some women use restraining orders based on trumped up
accusations of potential violence but find it offensive if a restraining
order is used to limit their ability to play games with the kids.

It's a dirty business, and both sides often play dirty, men and women.

tim

>Restraining orders do not simply apply to violence.  A restraining order
>can simply be to request an order to stay put and not leave the
>jurisdiction during a pending court case.  There's nothing wrong with that.

    I wasn't aware of this. I have only seen women (and yes I am sorry but
    I have only seen women do this) who use it against the father for no
    reason other then to try and get the upper hand in a custody battle. 
    It really infuriates me to see someone who has never gone through
    abuse, abuse the system.  
    
>Funny how often some women use restraining orders based on trumped up
>accusations of potential violence but find it offensive if a restraining
>order is used to limit their ability to play games with the kids.

    I hope you don't mean me in this case.  I was trying (I guess not very
    well) to say that it is wrong for a woman to make up stories to keep
    the fathers away for the children.  
    
    Just for the record, I am divorced and I was the one who initiated the
    divorce.  If you talk to my x, he'd tell you I took him to the
    cleaners, if you want the facts, I left with the clothes on my back and
    nothing more.  Because I have the kids he says I have everything and he
    has nothing (I can't argue with that, except to say I have in no way 
    limited his access to the children. When we went to court, he was asked
    what he wanted for visitation, he asked what could he have, I said that
    he could have them as much as he wanted, he elected for every Wed and
    every other weekend.  When the kids ask about seeing Daddy more, I tell
    them right in front of him that it is up to daddy and his schedule.  He
    has now arranged ( after a year of them asking) to take them on
    Thursday as well, so if you get out a calendar and mark the days you
    will see that in a month with 31 days, he has them 16 and I have them
    15, but still he says that I get them more, cause they sleep at my
    house.  When I offer to let them sleep at his place, it is too
    inconvenient for him to get them off to school). 
    
>It's a dirty business, and both sides often play dirty, men and women.
    
    I totally agree with that!
    
    Roberta
tim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Restraining orders do not simply apply to violence.  A restraining order
>can simply be to request an order to stay put and not leave the
>jurisdiction during a pending court case.  There's nothing wrong with that.

   < I wasn't aware of this. I have only seen women (and yes I am sorry but
   < I have only seen women do this) who use it against the father for no
   < reason other then to try and get the upper hand in a custody battle. 
   < It really infuriates me to see someone who has never gone through
   < abuse, abuse the system.  
    
        I wasn't aware of this either. It infuriates me also about 
    the abuse. I for on was being abused (It got really bad once I told
    him I wanted a divorce) He went as far as (an effort to stop my 
    counseling and groups) to kill my cat that he claims was just a 
    stupid cat, what was wrong with ME for getting so upset? Lot's of
    my things started meeting with 'accidents'..    He told me I would
    die if I proceeded with the divorce. He said things Like. "I'll kill
    you before I let you have anything. If you want to live you won't
    divorce me." Then it got worse. I came close to a few car accidents
    and the stories pointed more to the possibility of someone 'tampering'
    with the car, rather than 'natural' problems....But, prove it... My
    oil was also being drained. Had the car checked for leaks and there
    were NONE. Plus there wasn't even any on the ground. I was starting
    to lose a lot of sleep with paranoi. Ended up putting on th restraining
    order, then moved into a secret place until after the divorce was
    'granted'....By the way,.,, the ex moved next door to me, and that's
    when the bad stuff got worse.
    
>Funny how often some women use restraining orders based on trumped up
>accusations of potential violence but find it offensive if a restraining
>order is used to limit their ability to play games with the kids.

   < I hope you don't mean me in this case.  I was trying (I guess not very
   < well) to say that it is wrong for a woman to make up stories to keep
   < the fathers away for the children.  
    
   < Just for the record, I am divorced and I was the one who initiated the
   < divorce.  If you talk to my x, he'd tell you I took him to the
   < cleaners, if you want the facts, I left with the clothes on my back and
   < nothing more.  Because I have the kids he says I have everything and he
   < has nothing (I can't argue with that, except to say I have in no way 
   < limited his access to the children. When we went to court, he was asked
   < what he wanted for visitation, he asked what could he have, I said that
   < he could have them as much as he wanted, he elected for every Wed and
   < every other weekend.  When the kids ask about seeing Daddy more, I tell
   < them right in front of him that it is up to daddy and his schedule.  He
   < has now arranged ( after a year of them asking) to take them on
   < Thursday as well, so if you get out a calendar and mark the days you
   < will see that in a month with 31 days, he has them 16 and I have them
   < 15, but still he says that I get them more, cause they sleep at my
   < house.  When I offer to let them sleep at his place, it is too
   < inconvenient for him to get them off to school). 
   
       I was worried that it might have been for me. That's why I wrote
    a little of my story. I also know what you mean. If you heard my ex
    talk, you'd think that I abused him.  Also, I gave him all the
    property, could of asked for at least $35,000, only asked for $10,000.
    He had until May 3rd to pay me. He hasn't paid me yet. So, now he
    owes m $15,000. After Nov. 3rd he owes me what I could have asked for.
    He has a friend who thinks I'm 'terrible' that I would take him to
    court for that money.....Hey, we were married for 25 years and I paid
    my way. I deserved more than what I asked for, but I figured it would
    be easier for him to come up with the smaller amount, and if he
    figured he scre#$d me he'd give me the smaller amount and be happy.
    Wrong! In fact, his girlfriend moved in a few days after he moved out,
    right next door, and she told him she would give me the money. People
    heard him say (His son and daugter were 2 witnesses) that he would
    drive me crazy befor he'd pay me any money. None of his 3 children,
    20, 23 and 24 years old want anything to do with him. They even told
    me that when I actually divorce him they'd be really proud of me!
    
>It's a dirty business, and both sides often play dirty, men and women.
    
    I totally agree with that!    But, I also know that the dirty is
    sometimes only one of them. In my case, my conscious is clean! 
    
    Rosie

    Gee guys... I really don't know what to say. I mean I have been writing
    horra stories for some umpteen years and no one figures out that there
    is a miss use of the justice system? Beats me.....

    ..which reminds me of the guy who was given a restraining order by his
    soon-to-be-ex via the sherrif of Naughtingham, and the day after was
    called by the stbx and told that he must show up Friday evening to
    babysit the kids as she went out with her new beau. Yaba-dabba-doo!
    
    Then there was a guy who was a local Minster who was servered the
    ultimate bomb.... he was acused of molesting his daughter. Upper hand
    game no doubt. 
    
    And then there was good ol Norm who was arrested three times for doing
    something he didn't do, and was no where around. Yet, they arrested him
    for good measures and thrown into the pokie for an added measure. And
    three times found to be inocent of the crimes. IF the false stuff
    doesnt stop, the outcome will be that someone will REALLY get hurt
    because to the person who cried 'Wolf' to much to often.
    
     

    Whom does the supervising? Local DCYS? DOR? Must cost like hell for him
    to see the kids when she goes out on the town.

    ...And he is just as dumb to allow her to get away with it! And
    documented proff will get him non-supervised visatitions as well as a
    better lawyer.
    
     

    Sure! Either a new string or tell him to get his back side into a good
    mens support group like Fathers United for Equal Justice.
    
    

    ...And there you have it! Another fine useage of our jusdicial system.
    Used in a mindless game of power and control...
    
    Still another man was told that he could see his children if he would
    stop seeing his present girlfriend... She, the girlfriend, was not a
    child molester, nor did she do illicit drugs or sell her body. She was
    a school teacher at a public school!! My-my-my! The nerve of some
    people!:)
     

These boys have gotta get better lawyers.